Question:
> >Forcing the kid to sleep outside is not "endangerment." Were it so, the >the parents of a lots of boy scouts would be in jail. > Circumstances are all-important. > Under good auspices it’s camping. > Under bad auspices it’s abuse.
What nonsense! They have a kid who is on the edge of getting into real trouble and they are dealing with it. >The dog crap, likewise, is not endangerment. >The presecutor is a jerk. > Nope, YOU’RE the jerk.
My, my! Does your mother know you have a computer? EMWTK
Response:
> You don’t have to have ever been in real danger to have been extremely > abused. Didn’t YOU KNOW that???
Oh! So, sport, what are the "reasonable limits" to the amount of negative reinforcement a parent may apply? If, say, a parent withholds approval when the kid decides to kill a playmate, are the parents guilty of "abuse?" > Steve
Frankly, "Steve," the real "sick puppy" here seems to be you! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
> Agreed. I know a lot of liberal families, some are "children of the 60’s", > who don’t/didn’t discipline their kids because the kids are sort of like > clouds floating around the house, hardly noticed.
Generic labels are *so* useful. Keeps me from having to do that icky thinking stuff. P. Tierney
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You know, I have a couple of difficult kids, too. And there have >certainly been times when I have been at my wits end, especially before >they were dx’d. But I have no medical training and no formal psychology >background, and I knew better than this. I got on the net, I went to >bookstores, I badgered doctors until I had answers that would help. >How could these people, with their backgrounds, not *know what they were >doing was torturing that child? >I hope they lock them both up. >Liz > I hope they do too. But this came from those parents having been abused as > kids themselves, and secretly wanting to abuse someone smaller to get back > at SOMEBODY for their OWN abuse as children. That IS where authoritarian > punitiveness and sick political Rightism all comes from. It’s a mantal > illness. The entire Republican party is actually just the symptom of a > mental illness of a minority of people. > Steve
They sure seem to have more people that agree with them though, don’t they? As we saw on election day. As for the couple above – they should both be punished – sickos.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> I hope they do too. But this came from those parents having been abused >as > >> kids themselves, and secretly wanting to abuse someone smaller to get >back > >> at SOMEBODY for their OWN abuse as children. That IS where >authoritarian > >> punitiveness and sick political Rightism all comes from. It’s a mental > >> illness. The entire Republican party is actually just the symptom of a > >> mental illness of a minority of people. > >> Steve > >Steve, > >As a republican, naturally I disagree with you. I grew up believing that >we > >*should* have essentially what we earn in this life. The concept that >each > >of us should have part of what the hard-working bunch down the road have > >earned because the world is simply *supposed* to provide for me, seems a >bit > >foreign. > Your whole notion of what Liberalism is all about is a joke, a gag, and > mis-informed. You have been brainwashed by the rich to actually believe > that you are a "self-made-man", when NONE of us can change what the > circumstances of our upbringing and experience have made us by the tiniest > iota. You cannot change your own mind unless circumstances have produced > that in you from without. You can’t even change your opinions, the very > key to all of your behavior. If you can change one tiny feature to what >you > think, do so now and tell us all about how you accomplished it, so we can > observe your lie and laugh at you for it! >Actually, you shouldn’t laugh at it. If I am nothing more than a product of >my environment, and my views were shaped by my environment, and you are the >same, then my viewpoints are equally proper. Or perhaps, your external >environment formed you into someone who can believe nothing *else* than a >theory that we are nothing more than random particles pushed along by unseen >forces. > >I see liberals as having a touch of "You people go out, build businesses, > >work extra hours, and then give me some of it, because I have *needs*. > Bzzzt! No, but thanks for playing. Are you REALLY SERIOUSLY SO FUCKING > IGNORANT that you really think that ANYBODY believes that? Do you NOT > see how if you had been born someone else that your life and your >abilities > would be quite different, or do you dumbly wish to mewl at us that God >just > loves you better and would make you rich and famous in ANY life you found > yourself in, and that all "those other people" must "just be LAZY OR > SOMETHIN’!!!" You’re not really just THAT fucking stupid, are you? >Not at all stupid, actually. I’m intelligent enough to discuss variations >in theory and social factors without resorting to a redneck type reaction >similar to the Southern Predestination Baptists, though stated with better >sentence structure. If you become overly emotional at other opinions, I am >not responsible. Any unmet need for funding at your local mental health >agency *may* be. Perhaps you are simply crude because of "external factors" >and should not be held to reasonable standards any more than Charles Manson, >poor soul, should be.
Gee, you managed a paragraph of 8 lines with absolutely no content of value at all! > You see, there IS NO FREE WILL!!!!! Repeat it to yourself, THERE IS NO >FREE > WILL! We are born into the life we are born into with NO control of that! > You are NOT a "self-made-man", you were made by your external >circumstances > and accident of upbringing. You do NOT HAVE ANY more right to think you > deserve what you have, than you have to believe that OTHERS deserve > whatever THEY have! NO MATTER HOW LITTLE THEY HAVE! This means that if you > have an education and a nice family and a good job that YOU ARE JUST >LUCKY! > ANYBODY IN YOUR LIFE WOULD HAVE DONE EXACTLY AS WELL, BECAUSE THEY WOULD >BE > YOU!! >Interesting theory. I see no foundation to it that’s any better than "the >Martians are causing it all". Where do you get this knowledge?
It’s self-evident. Tell us how the stuff you think magically comes into your head rather than being caused by something so we can all laugh at you for hearing voices. > SO now, what do you owe to others for YOU being SO FUCKING LUCKY THIS TIME > AROUND THE WHEEL OF LIFE????? How do YOU want to be treated in your NEXT > life? Do you want to be pitied and left to be stupid or do you want to be > educated and get a good job TOO, despite a bad start? What do you want for > your kids, do you want them to have no food, no medical help, and no luck > in this life at ALL? Do you see the person in that other man’s eyes? HE IS > luck NEXT time, you have to GENERATE IT THIS TIME!! >I had a bad start. I got a good education. I worked during the day and >went to school at night. Perhaps those who sit at home and watch TV have no >"choice", though I don’t see a reason to believe that.
Sorry, wrongo! People who don’t believe they can do anything, or don’t have any interests are that way because of what happened to them or didn’t. For whatever set of reasons, you did NOT merely come up with the idea to get educated on your own. Without everything happening to you in your life exactly as it did you would NOT have come up with that! Would you like to tell us all how these magically appearing ideas come into your head now? Would you like to prove you can change your mind now by truthfully changing your political opinions to mine? Even a little? You see, you can’t change your actual opinions, and they are the ones that govern your actions, and nothing else. So if you can’t change what you think, then you can’t change what you do either! > >That’s an intentional overstatement, still that’s my twist on the concept > >that the undefined "they", either govt or the successful, are responsible > >for taking care of "me" because darn it, I have needs and goodies should > >flow my way to meet those needs. > Wake up and pay attention, Moron, NOBODY thinks that! The allegation that > they DO is due merely to mental illness that the rich tend to suffer from! > Nobody can REALLY be that stupid without being abused! The rich are rich > partly because they hate people for what people always did to them, it’s >NO > WONDER that they have NO idea what people are REALLY about! >Damn, all the successful counselling I do, all those hours of psych class, >and the people who have thanked me for the results. Perhaps you can come >and show us the light sometime.
You should definitely try philosophy, it would be much more informative in this regard. Last I looked psych class didn’t deal with Determinism. Interesting that it doesn’t, however, since Science and Theory of Science deals exclusively with Causation!! Gee, I must remember this from my degrees in Physics! So you see, your education is clearly irrelevant in the topic under discussion, whereas mine ISN’T! What a nice surprise! > >If you’re declaring me mentally ill for wanting to keep what I earn, and > >respecting those who make the investment of years to earn more, then I’m >as > >nutty as can be. > >SpiritQuest > No, everyone wants that. But only the mentally ill want to win the poker > game of life and make children starve to death as a consequence, and then > pretend that they "deserved it" because "God didn’t love them as much"!! >Sorry. I don’t see how working a few extra hours and studying a few extra >hours means that someone is helping children to starve.
Then perhaps you’re just not very bright and need work in Economics. >Actually, they >wind up tossing a few more coins into the tax coffer. And the money >incentive of building a successful business, of being creative and >hard-working, created the industries that have caused the US to be one of >the best fed nations in the world, though poverty has not been eliminated.
"Building a successful business" is what causes all your shit-workers to suddenly find they are not making anything like they used to and can no longer afford health insurance for their children. You see, a "successful business" means successful TO YOU, and NOT to them, or did this escape you somehow? If you arrange to make more than they do, when the same labor is being done that has always been done, it merely means that YOU STEAL a bigger share of it! Why did I say STEAL? Because you don’t deserve it merely for managing a market manipulation of the flow of money without increasing your OWN personal productivity! You see, you CAN’T really increase your personal productivity by buying a business and ripping off your employees when you make five to ten times what they make for no real reason of actual labor result! > If you really want to earn that Nic of yours, "Spirit Quest", then you > have some growing as a person to do! A BUNCH of it!! >I doubt that encountering a loud arrogant person who can show no respect for >an individual with different opinions is going to help me appreciate >humanity more.
No content. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Then again, I’m just a product of my environment and have no >choice. Therefore, I cannot be blamed for any action or opinion that might, >under other theories be "mine". >SpiritQuest
… read more »
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >As a republican, naturally I disagree with you. I grew up believing that >we > >*should* have essentially what we earn in this life. The concept that >each > >of us should have part of what the hard-working bunch down the road have > >earned because the world is simply *supposed* to provide for me, seems a >bit > >foreign. > As a Democrat, I naturally agree with you. I don’t know WTF that other > person was going on about, bringing party politics into this topic. I also > agree with you that we have to earn our own way in life. > Where we *might* diverge is that I believe that there is and will always > be a segment of our population that simply cannot take care of themselves > (e.g. the severely handicapped, mentally ill, elderly, what have you) and > that it is a legitimate function of government (as a societal tool…hey, > that would make a nice name for a rock band..societal tool) to provide for > these folks. Even then, we may only disagree on the degree this is true, > if that. >Hmmm. I don’t think we *do* diverge. I absolutely believe in taking care >of those who honestly can’t take care of themselves. I take a closer look >at who qualifies under that. I know a lady at work who gets stuffed sinuses >whenever the carpet is cleaned. There are others in the office who claim to >be allergic to the smell of ink.
Have you ever had a pseudo-anaphylactic reaction? You feel like you’re smothering, like you can’t breathe. Your pulse races and you sweat and think you’re dying! You doubt your sanity and begin to fear leaving home. To be a "Real Boy", Pinnochio, you have to recognize that everybody else is really doing just as well as they can, and that if they are to be expected to do any better, that the rest of us will have to HELP them do so, and often NOT as we ignorantly imagine they require!! >And I *do* have a sister-in-law who is >drawing "disability" because she is a "nymphomaniac". I’d almost think >that’s clever if it didn’t make me so angry.
I know sex-addicts who are so horny constantly, so they actually feel, that they can’t even think straight or hold a conversation. Now what would YOU do if you felt like that and it confused the shit out of you? This is a real condition that comes from other causes, and it is treatable, but it is actually quite disabling. The forbidden shameful approach to sex by this society makes this hard to find sympathy for, but it is REAL! >I believe in charity on a more local basis, except when we’re talking a very >low income area. I think we would rebuild some of the "relationships" that >should exist, human-to-human. It takes away the "somebody owes me" and >especially for those who need temporary aid, gives them an impression of "WE >should do this for each other", turning the recipient perhaps into the next >helping hand.
That’s all well and good. But that means we need to make ourselves available to help others enhance their ability to contribute, and that means paying for their dental work, and their education, and perhaps some therapy, and THAT shit’s EXPENSIVE! And you can’t just go home after work and hide and watch TV!! It is the impersonal hand of wealth in control that makes people dishonest and not give a shit about anybody but themselves, but that’s true whatever their lot in life. > Making your child sleep outside as a punishment is certainly odd. > Criminal? I really don’t know. I certainly don’t think they’re helping > mold a stable, functional adult by this form of parenting, though. As > parents, they suck. >I disagree with the idea that it’s criminal, unless it’s a bitter winter. I >think it’s dumb, and definitely cruel. And, from the less condemning parts >of the article (and it *was* designed to condemn), it sounded like the child >could have done what was expected in many cases, but chose not to.
You don’t have to be endangered to be EXTREMELY emotionally abused!! > But it’s not because they’re conservative or Republican or any of > that…that’s silliness. >Agreed. I know a lot of liberal families, some are "children of the 60’s", >who don’t/didn’t discipline their kids because the kids are sort of like >clouds floating around the house, hardly noticed. >SpiritQuest
You watch too much TV. And if THAT weren’t bad enough, YOU BELIEVE TV! Those kids don’t exist, they’re a fiction of Rightist authors who only WISH there were some. Steve
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I hope they do too. But this came from those parents having been abused as >> kids themselves, and secretly wanting to abuse someone smaller to get back >> at SOMEBODY for their OWN abuse as children. That IS where authoritarian >> punitiveness and sick political Rightism all comes from. It’s a mental >> illness. The entire Republican party is actually just the symptom of a >> mental illness of a minority of people. >> Steve >Steve, >As a republican, naturally I disagree with you. I grew up believing that we >*should* have essentially what we earn in this life. The concept that each >of us should have part of what the hard-working bunch down the road have >earned because the world is simply *supposed* to provide for me, seems a bit >foreign. > Your whole notion of what Liberalism is all about is a joke, a gag, and > mis-informed. You have been brainwashed by the rich to actually believe > that you are a "self-made-man", when NONE of us can change what the > circumstances of our upbringing and experience have made us by the tiniest > iota. You cannot change your own mind unless circumstances have produced > that in you from without. You can’t even change your opinions, the very > key to all of your behavior. If you can change one tiny feature to what you > think, do so now and tell us all about how you accomplished it, so we can > observe your lie and laugh at you for it!
Actually, you shouldn’t laugh at it. If I am nothing more than a product of my environment, and my views were shaped by my environment, and you are the same, then my viewpoints are equally proper. Or perhaps, your external environment formed you into someone who can believe nothing *else* than a theory that we are nothing more than random particles pushed along by unseen forces. >I see liberals as having a touch of "You people go out, build businesses, >work extra hours, and then give me some of it, because I have *needs*. > Bzzzt! No, but thanks for playing. Are you REALLY SERIOUSLY SO FUCKING > IGNORANT that you really think that ANYBODY believes that? Do you NOT > see how if you had been born someone else that your life and your abilities > would be quite different, or do you dumbly wish to mewl at us that God just > loves you better and would make you rich and famous in ANY life you found > yourself in, and that all "those other people" must "just be LAZY OR > SOMETHIN’!!!" You’re not really just THAT fucking stupid, are you?
Not at all stupid, actually. I’m intelligent enough to discuss variations in theory and social factors without resorting to a redneck type reaction similar to the Southern Predestination Baptists, though stated with better sentence structure. If you become overly emotional at other opinions, I am not responsible. Any unmet need for funding at your local mental health agency *may* be. Perhaps you are simply crude because of "external factors" and should not be held to reasonable standards any more than Charles Manson, poor soul, should be. > You see, there IS NO FREE WILL!!!!! Repeat it to yourself, THERE IS NO FREE > WILL! We are born into the life we are born into with NO control of that! > You are NOT a "self-made-man", you were made by your external circumstances > and accident of upbringing. You do NOT HAVE ANY more right to think you > deserve what you have, than you have to believe that OTHERS deserve > whatever THEY have! NO MATTER HOW LITTLE THEY HAVE! This means that if you > have an education and a nice family and a good job that YOU ARE JUST LUCKY! > ANYBODY IN YOUR LIFE WOULD HAVE DONE EXACTLY AS WELL, BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE > YOU!!
Interesting theory. I see no foundation to it that’s any better than "the Martians are causing it all". Where do you get this knowledge? > SO now, what do you owe to others for YOU being SO FUCKING LUCKY THIS TIME > AROUND THE WHEEL OF LIFE????? How do YOU want to be treated in your NEXT > life? Do you want to be pitied and left to be stupid or do you want to be > educated and get a good job TOO, despite a bad start? What do you want for > your kids, do you want them to have no food, no medical help, and no luck > in this life at ALL? Do you see the person in that other man’s eyes? HE IS > luck NEXT time, you have to GENERATE IT THIS TIME!!
I had a bad start. I got a good education. I worked during the day and went to school at night. Perhaps those who sit at home and watch TV have no "choice", though I don’t see a reason to believe that. >That’s an intentional overstatement, still that’s my twist on the concept >that the undefined "they", either govt or the successful, are responsible >for taking care of "me" because darn it, I have needs and goodies should >flow my way to meet those needs. > Wake up and pay attention, Moron, NOBODY thinks that! The allegation that > they DO is due merely to mental illness that the rich tend to suffer from! > Nobody can REALLY be that stupid without being abused! The rich are rich > partly because they hate people for what people always did to them, it’s NO > WONDER that they have NO idea what people are REALLY about!
Damn, all the successful counselling I do, all those hours of psych class, and the people who have thanked me for the results. Perhaps you can come and show us the light sometime. >If you’re declaring me mentally ill for wanting to keep what I earn, and >respecting those who make the investment of years to earn more, then I’m as >nutty as can be. >SpiritQuest > No, everyone wants that. But only the mentally ill want to win the poker > game of life and make children starve to death as a consequence, and then > pretend that they "deserved it" because "God didn’t love them as much"!!
Sorry. I don’t see how working a few extra hours and studying a few extra hours means that someone is helping children to starve. Actually, they wind up tossing a few more coins into the tax coffer. And the money incentive of building a successful business, of being creative and hard-working, created the industries that have caused the US to be one of the best fed nations in the world, though poverty has not been eliminated. > If you really want to earn that Nic of yours, "Spirit Quest", then you > have some growing as a person to do! A BUNCH of it!!
I doubt that encountering a loud arrogant person who can show no respect for an individual with different opinions is going to help me appreciate humanity more. Then again, I’m just a product of my environment and have no choice. Therefore, I cannot be blamed for any action or opinion that might, under other theories be "mine". > Steve
SpiritQuest
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Los Angeles Times > November 21 2002 > Grady Machnick, a Los Angeles County sheriff’s sergeant, and his wife, > an elementary school principal, locked the boy out of the house until > he finished his algebra homework. Some nights, they forced him to > sleep outside on a dog mat. >I’m not sure I would endorse their methods but I think I missed the part >where the kid was ever in any danger. >CBI
You don’t have to have ever been in real danger to have been extremely abused. Didn’t YOU KNOW that??? Steve
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->As a republican, naturally I disagree with you. I grew up believing that we >*should* have essentially what we earn in this life. The concept that each >of us should have part of what the hard-working bunch down the road have >earned because the world is simply *supposed* to provide for me, seems a bit >foreign. >As a Democrat, I naturally agree with you. I don’t know WTF that other >person was going on about, bringing party politics into this topic. I also >agree with you that we have to earn our own way in life. >Where we *might* diverge is that I believe that there is and will always >be a segment of our population that simply cannot take care of themselves >(e.g. the severely handicapped, mentally ill, elderly, what have you) and >that it is a legitimate function of government (as a societal tool…hey, >that would make a nice name for a rock band..societal tool) to provide for >these folks. Even then, we may only disagree on the degree this is true, >if that. >Making your child sleep outside as a punishment is certainly odd. >Criminal? I really don’t know. I certainly don’t think they’re helping >mold a stable, functional adult by this form of parenting, though. As >parents, they suck. >But it’s not because they’re conservative or Republican or any of >that…that’s silliness. >Jim Zakany
Actually, if you DON’T really know that it DOES INDEED, then your political analysis lacks depth quite remarkably! Steve
Response:
>> Los Angeles Times > November 21 2002 > Tough Love or Abuse? > Orange County couple say that making their teen sleep outside and > putting dog feces in his backpack was discipline, not endangerment. >In a reasonable world, they would have a good case.
No, they would be publically BEATEN! >Forcing the kid to sleep outside is not "endangerment." Were it so, the >the parents of a lots of boy scouts would be in jail.
Circumstances are all-important. Under good auspices it’s camping. Under bad auspices it’s abuse. >The dog crap, likewise, is not endangerment. >The presecutor is a jerk.
Nope, YOU’RE the jerk. Steve
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >You know, I have a couple of difficult kids, too. And there have > >certainly been times when I have been at my wits end, especially before > >they were dx’d. But I have no medical training and no formal psychology > >background, and I knew better than this. I got on the net, I went to > >bookstores, I badgered doctors until I had answers that would help. > >How could these people, with their backgrounds, not *know what they were > >doing was torturing that child? > >I hope they lock them both up. > >Liz > I hope they do too. But this came from those parents having been abused as > kids themselves, >*I* was abused as a kid. Sexual, physical and psychological abuse. I >was burned, beaten, fu**ed. My own parental models left something to be >desired, let me tell you. But I did not grow up and hurt *my kids. I >have spent my entire life as a parent trying to make sure that the scars >of my past did not spread to my kids. It’s hard work. It takes a lot >of effort and a willingness to confront yourself and be honest with >yourself. And I managed it with none of the special training in child >psychology this mother had. >I know a lot of people who were abused grow up to abuse their kids. But >a lot of us *don’t, too. I don’t buy ‘they were abused’ as an excuse >for their choices. Especially not with their backgrounds and >professions. >Liz
Some are hurt earlier, different, worse. There are no "excuses", but there ARE CAUSES to EVERYTHING. Steve
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->As a republican, naturally I disagree with you. I grew up believing that we >*should* have essentially what we earn in this life. The concept that each >of us should have part of what the hard-working bunch down the road have >earned because the world is simply *supposed* to provide for me, seems a bit >foreign. > As a Democrat, I naturally agree with you. I don’t know WTF that other > person was going on about, bringing party politics into this topic. I also > agree with you that we have to earn our own way in life. > Where we *might* diverge is that I believe that there is and will always > be a segment of our population that simply cannot take care of themselves > (e.g. the severely handicapped, mentally ill, elderly, what have you) and > that it is a legitimate function of government (as a societal tool…hey, > that would make a nice name for a rock band..societal tool) to provide for > these folks. Even then, we may only disagree on the degree this is true, > if that.
Hmmm. I don’t think we *do* diverge. I absolutely believe in taking care of those who honestly can’t take care of themselves. I take a closer look at who qualifies under that. I know a lady at work who gets stuffed sinuses whenever the carpet is cleaned. There are others in the office who claim to be allergic to the smell of ink. And I *do* have a sister-in-law who is drawing "disability" because she is a "nymphomaniac". I’d almost think that’s clever if it didn’t make me so angry. I believe in charity on a more local basis, except when we’re talking a very low income area. I think we would rebuild some of the "relationships" that should exist, human-to-human. It takes away the "somebody owes me" and especially for those who need temporary aid, gives them an impression of "WE should do this for each other", turning the recipient perhaps into the next helping hand. > Making your child sleep outside as a punishment is certainly odd. > Criminal? I really don’t know. I certainly don’t think they’re helping > mold a stable, functional adult by this form of parenting, though. As > parents, they suck.
I disagree with the idea that it’s criminal, unless it’s a bitter winter. I think it’s dumb, and definitely cruel. And, from the less condemning parts of the article (and it *was* designed to condemn), it sounded like the child could have done what was expected in many cases, but chose not to. > But it’s not because they’re conservative or Republican or any of > that…that’s silliness.
Agreed. I know a lot of liberal families, some are "children of the 60’s", who don’t/didn’t discipline their kids because the kids are sort of like clouds floating around the house, hardly noticed. > Jim Zakany
SpiritQuest
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I hope they do too. But this came from those parents having been >abused as > kids themselves, and secretly wanting to abuse someone smaller to >get back > at SOMEBODY for their OWN abuse as children. That IS where >authoritarian > punitiveness and sick political Rightism all comes from. It’s a >mantal > illness. The entire Republican party is actually just the symptom of >a > mental illness of a minority of people. > Steve >I knew that the numbers of people abused has to be higher than what is >publicly acknowledged, but….. every Republican was abused?!!
Not as you ASAR cretins understand it. YOU freaks see sex hiding under your beds! *I’M* talking about genuine emotional abuse by authoritarianism and emotional coldness and failure to love. >That’s a heavy mantle to carry, no wonder they suffer illness from the >weight. >jeeco >independently scarcastic.
It’s a Gaussian distribution. In any age, half the people are ahead of their time, and half the people are behind their time. Republicans are behind their time. This happens for reasons, everything is CAUSED. They were abused. Steve
Response:
> Los Angeles Times > November 21 2002 > Grady Machnick, a Los Angeles County sheriff’s sergeant, and his wife, > an elementary school principal, locked the boy out of the house until > he finished his algebra homework. Some nights, they forced him to > sleep outside on a dog mat.
I’m not sure I would endorse their methods but I think I missed the part where the kid was ever in any danger. — CBI
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >You know, I have a couple of difficult kids, too. And there have > >certainly been times when I have been at my wits end, especially before > >they were dx’d. But I have no medical training and no formal psychology > >background, and I knew better than this. I got on the net, I went to > >bookstores, I badgered doctors until I had answers that would help. > >How could these people, with their backgrounds, not *know what they were > >doing was torturing that child? > >I hope they lock them both up. > >Liz > I hope they do too. But this came from those parents having been abused as > kids themselves, and secretly wanting to abuse someone smaller to get back > at SOMEBODY for their OWN abuse as children. That IS where authoritarian > punitiveness and sick political Rightism all comes from. It’s a mental > illness. The entire Republican party is actually just the symptom of a > mental illness of a minority of people. > Steve >Steve, >As a republican, naturally I disagree with you. I grew up believing that we >*should* have essentially what we earn in this life. The concept that each >of us should have part of what the hard-working bunch down the road have >earned because the world is simply *supposed* to provide for me, seems a bit >foreign.
Your whole notion of what Liberalism is all about is a joke, a gag, and mis-informed. You have been brainwashed by the rich to actually believe that you are a "self-made-man", when NONE of us can change what the circumstances of our upbringing and experience have made us by the tiniest iota. You cannot change your own mind unless circumstances have produced that in you from without. You can’t even change your opinions, the very key to all of your behavior. If you can change one tiny feature to what you think, do so now and tell us all about how you accomplished it, so we can observe your lie and laugh at you for it! >I see liberals as having a touch of "You people go out, build businesses, >work extra hours, and then give me some of it, because I have *needs*.
Bzzzt! No, but thanks for playing. Are you REALLY SERIOUSLY SO FUCKING IGNORANT that you really think that ANYBODY believes that? Do you NOT see how if you had been born someone else that your life and your abilities would be quite different, or do you dumbly wish to mewl at us that God just loves you better and would make you rich and famous in ANY life you found yourself in, and that all "those other people" must "just be LAZY OR SOMETHIN’!!!" You’re not really just THAT fucking stupid, are you? You see, there IS NO FREE WILL!!!!! Repeat it to yourself, THERE IS NO FREE WILL! We are born into the life we are born into with NO control of that! You are NOT a "self-made-man", you were made by your external circumstances and accident of upbringing. You do NOT HAVE ANY more right to think you deserve what you have, than you have to believe that OTHERS deserve whatever THEY have! NO MATTER HOW LITTLE THEY HAVE! This means that if you have an education and a nice family and a good job that YOU ARE JUST LUCKY! ANYBODY IN YOUR LIFE WOULD HAVE DONE EXACTLY AS WELL, BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE YOU!! SO now, what do you owe to others for YOU being SO FUCKING LUCKY THIS TIME AROUND THE WHEEL OF LIFE????? How do YOU want to be treated in your NEXT life? Do you want to be pitied and left to be stupid or do you want to be educated and get a good job TOO, despite a bad start? What do you want for your kids, do you want them to have no food, no medical help, and no luck in this life at ALL? Do you see the person in that other man’s eyes? HE IS luck NEXT time, you have to GENERATE IT THIS TIME!! >That’s an intentional overstatement, still that’s my twist on the concept >that the undefined "they", either govt or the successful, are responsible >for taking care of "me" because darn it, I have needs and goodies should >flow my way to meet those needs.
Wake up and pay attention, Moron, NOBODY thinks that! The allegation that they DO is due merely to mental illness that the rich tend to suffer from! Nobody can REALLY be that stupid without being abused! The rich are rich partly because they hate people for what people always did to them, it’s NO WONDER that they have NO idea what people are REALLY about! >If you’re declaring me mentally ill for wanting to keep what I earn, and >respecting those who make the investment of years to earn more, then I’m as >nutty as can be. >SpiritQuest
No, everyone wants that. But only the mentally ill want to win the poker game of life and make children starve to death as a consequence, and then pretend that they "deserved it" because "God didn’t love them as much"!! If you really want to earn that Nic of yours, "Spirit Quest", then you have some growing as a person to do! A BUNCH of it!! Steve
Response:
>behavior. His chores went unfinished. His grades were slipping. He >stole money from them and shoplifted at the local supermarket. >"One of my biggest regrets is I was unable to find a form of behavior >modification that would work,"
That’s because BM *DOESN’T* work! Never has! ONLY love and freedom works! Steve
Response:
>As a republican, naturally I disagree with you. I grew up believing that we >*should* have essentially what we earn in this life. The concept that each >of us should have part of what the hard-working bunch down the road have >earned because the world is simply *supposed* to provide for me, seems a bit >foreign.
As a Democrat, I naturally agree with you. I don’t know WTF that other person was going on about, bringing party politics into this topic. I also agree with you that we have to earn our own way in life. Where we *might* diverge is that I believe that there is and will always be a segment of our population that simply cannot take care of themselves (e.g. the severely handicapped, mentally ill, elderly, what have you) and that it is a legitimate function of government (as a societal tool…hey, that would make a nice name for a rock band..societal tool) to provide for these folks. Even then, we may only disagree on the degree this is true, if that. Making your child sleep outside as a punishment is certainly odd. Criminal? I really don’t know. I certainly don’t think they’re helping mold a stable, functional adult by this form of parenting, though. As parents, they suck. But it’s not because they’re conservative or Republican or any of that…that’s silliness. Jim Zakany
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I hope they do too. But this came from those parents having been > abused as > kids themselves, and secretly wanting to abuse someone smaller to > get back > at SOMEBODY for their OWN abuse as children. That IS where > authoritarian > punitiveness and sick political Rightism all comes from. It’s a > mantal > illness. The entire Republican party is actually just the symptom of > a > mental illness of a minority of people. > Steve > I knew that the numbers of people abused has to be higher than what is > publicly acknowledged, but….. every Republican was abused?!!
Well, it would explain *alot. *wicked grin. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> That’s a heavy mantle to carry, no wonder they suffer illness from the > weight. > jeeco > independently scarcastic. > >> Los Angeles Times > >> November 21 2002 > >> Tough Love or Abuse? > >> Orange County couple say that making their teen sleep outside and > >> putting dog feces in his backpack was discipline, not > endangerment. > >> By Stuart Pfeifer > >> Times Staff Writer > >> Grady and Deborah Machnick were distressed about their teenage > son’s > >> behavior. His chores went unfinished. His grades were slipping. > He > >> stole money from them and shoplifted at the local supermarket. > >> So the parents took drastic steps. > >> Grady Machnick, a Los Angeles County sheriff’s sergeant, and his > wife, > >> an elementary school principal, locked the boy out of the house > until > >> he finished his algebra homework. Some nights, they forced him to > >> sleep outside on a dog mat. > >> When the boy didn’t pick up after the family dogs, his stepmother > >> scooped up droppings from the backyard and put them in his > backpack > >> before he went to school. > >> Often, he was excluded from the dinner table, forced to eat > leftovers > >> in the kitchen while the rest of the family dined on fresh-cooked > >> meals. > >> The Machnicks say they did this to discipline a wayward son > before he > >> got into even worse trouble. Prosecutors say their actions were > not > >> only misguided but also criminal. > >> The parents went on trial this week in a child-endangerment case > the > >> likes of which prosecutors say they’ve never seen before. Most > child > >> abuse involves sudden, violent acts. This case focuses on what > Orange > >> County authorities describe as premeditated psychological > cruelty. > >> Essentially, the Machnicks are accused of going overboard in > their > >> efforts to curb their son’s behavior — efforts that, by their > >> account, began with "positive reinforcement" and other steps > right out > >> of a parenting self-help book. Implicitly, the case asks the > justice > >> system to define when parental tough love veers into criminality. > >> The Machnicks are charged with misdemeanor child endangerment and > >> felony conspiracy. If convicted of both offenses, they could each > be > >> sentenced to up to three years in prison. Jury selection began > >> Wednesday in Superior Court in Newport Beach. > >> The couple, who have pleaded not guilty, do not dispute many of > the > >> allegations, though they deny ever physically harming the boy, > now a > >> 16-year-old high school junior. When authorities confronted them > last > >> year, the parents insisted that there was a constructive purpose > >> behind the punishments they devised. > >> "One of my biggest regrets is I was unable to find a form of > behavior > >> modification that would work," Grady Machnick said in a written > >> statement released by his attorney, John Barnett. The boy "has > great > >> potential but simply would not obey school or home rules." > >> The Machnicks declined to be interviewed for this story. Barnett > says > >> they should be applauded for caring deeply about their child’s > welfare > >> and going to great lengths to deal with his problems. > >> "This building is filled with people whose parents didn’t care," > >> Barnett said in court recently. "These parents cared and now > they’re > >> being prosecuted…. They were trying to do something to get his > >> attention, without causing physical harm." > >> But in the process, authorities say, they inflicted psychological > >> harm. That the Machnicks were professionals trained to deal with > >> troublesome behavior makes their conduct all the more disturbing, > >> investigators say. > >> "Grady is a sergeant with the Los Angeles [County] Sheriff’s > >> Department. He should know as well as Deborah that the actions > they > >> are taking against [the boy] are unreasonable and constitute > child > >> abuse," said a report written by Dean Fleig, the police detective > who > >> investigated the case. > >> "Both of these people are obligated to report child abuse when it > is > >> brought to their attention," Fleig wrote, "and they are engaging > in it > >> themselves." > >> An Ideal Setting > >> The Machnicks live in a tidy, two-story home on Sunwest Circle, a > >> Yorba Linda cul-de-sac. The street is lined with palm trees and > >> manicured lawns, the kind of place where front doors are > decorated > >> with signs that say "Welcome Friends." > >> When the Machnicks moved in about five years ago, they told > neighbors > >> they were thrilled to be living in the community. Their two > oldest > >> children, Grady’s son and daughter from a previous marriage, > became > >> active in athletics. Their younger daughter rode horses and took > piano > >> lessons. > >> Neighbors described Deborah Machnick, 46, as a friendly person > who > >> strolled through the neighborhood at Christmastime, passing out > >> holiday gifts. One year it was a bottle of wine with a decorative > >> label. Another year it was cookie dough, with baking > instructions. > >> She was an elementary school principal in Walnut, most recently > at the > >> C.J. Morris school. Deborah Machnick, who had recently earned her > >> doctorate in education, was known for her efforts to boost the > >> self-esteem of students. At back-to-school nights, she gave > parents > >> pep talks about motivating children. She spoke about children as > >> future leaders and invited parents to ceremonies honoring the > school’s > >> students of the month. > >> Grady Machnick, also 46, was a supervisor at the Men’s Central > Jail in > >> downtown Los Angeles. > >> The couple earned nearly $200,000 between them, drove a new > Toyota > >> 4Runner and owned a vacation cabin in the San Bernardino > Mountains. > >> But behind closed doors, they struggled with Grady Machnick’s > son, > >> according to interviews, court records and social-services > reports. > >> (The Times is withholding the boy’s name because he is a minor.) > The > >> son missed family curfews, failed to complete homework > assignments, > >> got Ds in school, neglected chores and stole. > >> Nothing they did seemed to change his behavior, the parents said. > >> Grady Machnick said he tried at first to use positive > reinforcement, > >> giving his son movie tickets and cash as rewards for good > behavior. > >> When that failed, the couple tried gradually stiffening their > >> discipline, hoping something would click. They asked their son to > sign > >> a contract promising to improve his behavior. When he strayed, > they > >> grounded him. > >> Eventually, Grady Machnick concluded that more serious measures > were > >> needed to get through to his son, whom he described to a social > worker > >> as "one kid who pushes the limit." > >> In court papers, Orange County prosecutors detailed 19 acts that > they > >> contend amount to felony conspiracy by the Machnicks. > >> Sixteen of those incidents involve allegations of emotional or > >> psychological abuse. The parents acknowledge many of these > episodes, > >> though they dispute certain details recounted by their son. > >> The remaining three incidents involve alleged physical violence. > Grady > >> Machnick is accused of punching his son in the stomach and > pushing him > >> against a wall. The stepmother allegedly struck the boy in the > leg, > >> causing a bruise. Both parents deny hitting the child. > >> ‘We Have to Push’ > >> Last year, when the boy failed to clean up dog droppings in the > >> backyard, his stepmother confronted him and demanded that he > propose a > >> punishment. He suggested that if it happened again, his parents > should > >> place the droppings in his bedroom. > >> Deborah Machnick later told investigators she thought the idea > was > >> reasonable and asked that he put it in writing. > >> Within a few weeks, he was again failing to clean up after the > dogs. > >> So she placed dog droppings in the boy’s backpack before he went > to > >> school. She later told a police detective that her actions "sent > the > >> message" and the boy began cleaning up after the dogs. > >> "We have to push," the stepmother said, according to a police > report. > >> When the Machnicks suspected their son of stealing cash from > them, > >> they imposed a new punishment. When Grady Machnick left for work > at 4 > >> a.m., he would roust his son from bed and escort him from the > house. > >> The boy was not allowed back inside until his father returned > from > >> work in the afternoon. Authorities said this policy remained in > effect
… read more »
Response:
> Los Angeles Times > November 21 2002 > Tough Love or Abuse? > Orange County couple say that making their teen sleep outside and > putting dog feces in his backpack was discipline, not endangerment.
In a reasonable world, they would have a good case. Forcing the kid to sleep outside is not "endangerment." Were it so, the the parents of a lots of boy scouts would be in jail. The dog crap, likewise, is not endangerment. The presecutor is a jerk.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You know, I have a couple of difficult kids, too. And there have >certainly been times when I have been at my wits end, especially before >they were dx’d. But I have no medical training and no formal psychology >background, and I knew better than this. I got on the net, I went to >bookstores, I badgered doctors until I had answers that would help. >How could these people, with their backgrounds, not *know what they were >doing was torturing that child? >I hope they lock them both up. >Liz > I hope they do too. But this came from those parents having been abused as > kids themselves,
*I* was abused as a kid. Sexual, physical and psychological abuse. I was burned, beaten, fu**ed. My own parental models left something to be desired, let me tell you. But I did not grow up and hurt *my kids. I have spent my entire life as a parent trying to make sure that the scars of my past did not spread to my kids. It’s hard work. It takes a lot of effort and a willingness to confront yourself and be honest with yourself. And I managed it with none of the special training in child psychology this mother had. I know a lot of people who were abused grow up to abuse their kids. But a lot of us *don’t, too. I don’t buy ‘they were abused’ as an excuse for their choices. Especially not with their backgrounds and professions. Liz http://welshwop.com > and secretly wanting to abuse someone smaller to get back > at SOMEBODY for their OWN abuse as children. That IS where authoritarian > punitiveness and sick political Rightism all comes from. It’s a mantal > illness. The entire Republican party is actually just the symptom of a > mental illness of a minority of people.
I’m n – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Steve >> Los Angeles Times >> November 21 2002 >> Tough Love or Abuse? >> Orange County couple say that making their teen sleep outside and >> putting dog feces in his backpack was discipline, not endangerment. >> By Stuart Pfeifer >> Times Staff Writer >> Grady and Deborah Machnick were distressed about their teenage son’s >> behavior. His chores went unfinished. His grades were slipping. He >> stole money from them and shoplifted at the local supermarket. >> So the parents took drastic steps. >> Grady Machnick, a Los Angeles County sheriff’s sergeant, and his wife, >> an elementary school principal, locked the boy out of the house until >> he finished his algebra homework. Some nights, they forced him to >> sleep outside on a dog mat. >> When the boy didn’t pick up after the family dogs, his stepmother >> scooped up droppings from the backyard and put them in his backpack >> before he went to school. >> Often, he was excluded from the dinner table, forced to eat leftovers >> in the kitchen while the rest of the family dined on fresh-cooked >> meals. >> The Machnicks say they did this to discipline a wayward son before he >> got into even worse trouble. Prosecutors say their actions were not >> only misguided but also criminal. >> The parents went on trial this week in a child-endangerment case the >> likes of which prosecutors say they’ve never seen before. Most child >> abuse involves sudden, violent acts. This case focuses on what Orange >> County authorities describe as premeditated psychological cruelty. >> Essentially, the Machnicks are accused of going overboard in their >> efforts to curb their son’s behavior — efforts that, by their >> account, began with "positive reinforcement" and other steps right out >> of a parenting self-help book. Implicitly, the case asks the justice >> system to define when parental tough love veers into criminality. >> The Machnicks are charged with misdemeanor child endangerment and >> felony conspiracy. If convicted of both offenses, they could each be >> sentenced to up to three years in prison. Jury selection began >> Wednesday in Superior Court in Newport Beach. >> The couple, who have pleaded not guilty, do not dispute many of the >> allegations, though they deny ever physically harming the boy, now a >> 16-year-old high school junior. When authorities confronted them last >> year, the parents insisted that there was a constructive purpose >> behind the punishments they devised. >> "One of my biggest regrets is I was unable to find a form of behavior >> modification that would work," Grady Machnick said in a written >> statement released by his attorney, John Barnett. The boy "has great >> potential but simply would not obey school or home rules." >> The Machnicks declined to be interviewed for this story. Barnett says >> they should be applauded for caring deeply about their child’s welfare >> and going to great lengths to deal with his problems. >> "This building is filled with people whose parents didn’t care," >> Barnett said in court recently. "These parents cared and now they’re >> being prosecuted…. They were trying to do something to get his >> attention, without causing physical harm." >> But in the process, authorities say, they inflicted psychological >> harm. That the Machnicks were professionals trained to deal with >> troublesome behavior makes their conduct all the more disturbing, >> investigators say. >> "Grady is a sergeant with the Los Angeles [County] Sheriff’s >> Department. He should know as well as Deborah that the actions they >> are taking against [the boy] are unreasonable and constitute child >> abuse," said a report written by Dean Fleig, the police detective who >> investigated the case. >> "Both of these people are obligated to report child abuse when it is >> brought to their attention," Fleig wrote, "and they are engaging in it >> themselves." >> An Ideal Setting >> The Machnicks live in a tidy, two-story home on Sunwest Circle, a >> Yorba Linda cul-de-sac. The street is lined with palm trees and >> manicured lawns, the kind of place where front doors are decorated >> with signs that say "Welcome Friends." >> When the Machnicks moved in about five years ago, they told neighbors >> they were thrilled to be living in the community. Their two oldest >> children, Grady’s son and daughter from a previous marriage, became >> active in athletics. Their younger daughter rode horses and took piano >> lessons. >> Neighbors described Deborah Machnick, 46, as a friendly person who >> strolled through the neighborhood at Christmastime, passing out >> holiday gifts. One year it was a bottle of wine with a decorative >> label. Another year it was cookie dough, with baking instructions. >> She was an elementary school principal in Walnut, most recently at the >> C.J. Morris school. Deborah Machnick, who had recently earned her >> doctorate in education, was known for her efforts to boost the >> self-esteem of students. At back-to-school nights, she gave parents >> pep talks about motivating children. She spoke about children as >> future leaders and invited parents to ceremonies honoring the school’s >> students of the month. >> Grady Machnick, also 46, was a supervisor at the Men’s Central Jail in >> downtown Los Angeles. >> The couple earned nearly $200,000 between them, drove a new Toyota >> 4Runner and owned a vacation cabin in the San Bernardino Mountains. >> But behind closed doors, they struggled with Grady Machnick’s son, >> according to interviews, court records and social-services reports. >> (The Times is withholding the boy’s name because he is a minor.) The >> son missed family curfews, failed to complete homework assignments, >> got Ds in school, neglected chores and stole. >> Nothing they did seemed to change his behavior, the parents said. >> Grady Machnick said he tried at first to use positive reinforcement, >> giving his son movie tickets and cash as rewards for good behavior. >> When that failed, the couple tried gradually stiffening their >> discipline, hoping something would click. They asked their son to sign >> a contract promising to improve his behavior. When he strayed, they >> grounded him. >> Eventually, Grady Machnick concluded that more serious measures were >> needed to get through to his son, whom he described to a social worker >> as "one kid who pushes the limit." >> In court papers, Orange County prosecutors detailed 19 acts that they >> contend amount to felony conspiracy by the Machnicks. >> Sixteen of those incidents involve allegations of emotional or >> psychological abuse. The parents acknowledge many of these episodes, >> though they dispute certain details recounted by their son. >> The remaining three incidents involve alleged physical violence. Grady >> Machnick is accused of punching his son in the stomach and pushing him >> against a wall. The stepmother allegedly struck the boy in the leg, >> causing a bruise. Both parents deny hitting the child. >> ‘We Have to Push’ >> Last year, when the boy failed to clean up dog droppings in the >> backyard, his stepmother confronted him and demanded that he propose a >> punishment. He suggested that if it happened again, his parents should >> place the droppings in his bedroom. >> Deborah Machnick later told investigators she thought the idea was >> reasonable and asked that he put it in writing. >> Within a few weeks, he was again failing to clean up after the dogs. >> So she placed dog droppings in the boy’s backpack before he went to >> school. She later told a police detective that her actions "sent the >> message" and the boy began cleaning up after the dogs.
… read more »
Response:
> I hope they do too. But this came from those parents having been abused as > kids themselves, and secretly wanting to abuse someone smaller to get back > at SOMEBODY for their OWN abuse as children. That IS where authoritarian > punitiveness and sick political Rightism all comes from. It’s a mantal > illness. The entire Republican party is actually just the symptom of a > mental illness of a minority of people. > Steve
I knew that the numbers of people abused has to be higher than what is publicly acknowledged, but….. every Republican was abused?!! That’s a heavy mantle to carry, no wonder they suffer illness from the weight. jeeco independently scarcastic. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Los Angeles Times >> November 21 2002 >> Tough Love or Abuse? >> Orange County couple say that making their teen sleep outside and >> putting dog feces in his backpack was discipline, not endangerment. >> By Stuart Pfeifer >> Times Staff Writer >> Grady and Deborah Machnick were distressed about their teenage son’s >> behavior. His chores went unfinished. His grades were slipping. He >> stole money from them and shoplifted at the local supermarket. >> So the parents took drastic steps. >> Grady Machnick, a Los Angeles County sheriff’s sergeant, and his wife, >> an elementary school principal, locked the boy out of the house until >> he finished his algebra homework. Some nights, they forced him to >> sleep outside on a dog mat. >> When the boy didn’t pick up after the family dogs, his stepmother >> scooped up droppings from the backyard and put them in his backpack >> before he went to school. >> Often, he was excluded from the dinner table, forced to eat leftovers >> in the kitchen while the rest of the family dined on fresh-cooked >> meals. >> The Machnicks say they did this to discipline a wayward son before he >> got into even worse trouble. Prosecutors say their actions were not >> only misguided but also criminal. >> The parents went on trial this week in a child-endangerment case the >> likes of which prosecutors say they’ve never seen before. Most child >> abuse involves sudden, violent acts. This case focuses on what Orange >> County authorities describe as premeditated psychological cruelty. >> Essentially, the Machnicks are accused of going overboard in their >> efforts to curb their son’s behavior — efforts that, by their >> account, began with "positive reinforcement" and other steps right out >> of a parenting self-help book. Implicitly, the case asks the justice >> system to define when parental tough love veers into criminality. >> The Machnicks are charged with misdemeanor child endangerment and >> felony conspiracy. If convicted of both offenses, they could each be >> sentenced to up to three years in prison. Jury selection began >> Wednesday in Superior Court in Newport Beach. >> The couple, who have pleaded not guilty, do not dispute many of the >> allegations, though they deny ever physically harming the boy, now a >> 16-year-old high school junior. When authorities confronted them last >> year, the parents insisted that there was a constructive purpose >> behind the punishments they devised. >> "One of my biggest regrets is I was unable to find a form of behavior >> modification that would work," Grady Machnick said in a written >> statement released by his attorney, John Barnett. The boy "has great >> potential but simply would not obey school or home rules." >> The Machnicks declined to be interviewed for this story. Barnett says >> they should be applauded for caring deeply about their child’s welfare >> and going to great lengths to deal with his problems. >> "This building is filled with people whose parents didn’t care," >> Barnett said in court recently. "These parents cared and now they’re >> being prosecuted…. They were trying to do something to get his >> attention, without causing physical harm." >> But in the process, authorities say, they inflicted psychological >> harm. That the Machnicks were professionals trained to deal with >> troublesome behavior makes their conduct all the more disturbing, >> investigators say. >> "Grady is a sergeant with the Los Angeles [County] Sheriff’s >> Department. He should know as well as Deborah that the actions they >> are taking against [the boy] are unreasonable and constitute child >> abuse," said a report written by Dean Fleig, the police detective who >> investigated the case. >> "Both of these people are obligated to report child abuse when it is >> brought to their attention," Fleig wrote, "and they are engaging in it >> themselves." >> An Ideal Setting >> The Machnicks live in a tidy, two-story home on Sunwest Circle, a >> Yorba Linda cul-de-sac. The street is lined with palm trees and >> manicured lawns, the kind of place where front doors are decorated >> with signs that say "Welcome Friends." >> When the Machnicks moved in about five years ago, they told neighbors >> they were thrilled to be living in the community. Their two oldest >> children, Grady’s son and daughter from a previous marriage, became >> active in athletics. Their younger daughter rode horses and took piano >> lessons. >> Neighbors described Deborah Machnick, 46, as a friendly person who >> strolled through the neighborhood at Christmastime, passing out >> holiday gifts. One year it was a bottle of wine with a decorative >> label. Another year it was cookie dough, with baking instructions. >> She was an elementary school principal in Walnut, most recently at the >> C.J. Morris school. Deborah Machnick, who had recently earned her >> doctorate in education, was known for her efforts to boost the >> self-esteem of students. At back-to-school nights, she gave parents >> pep talks about motivating children. She spoke about children as >> future leaders and invited parents to ceremonies honoring the school’s >> students of the month. >> Grady Machnick, also 46, was a supervisor at the Men’s Central Jail in >> downtown Los Angeles. >> The couple earned nearly $200,000 between them, drove a new Toyota >> 4Runner and owned a vacation cabin in the San Bernardino Mountains. >> But behind closed doors, they struggled with Grady Machnick’s son, >> according to interviews, court records and social-services reports. >> (The Times is withholding the boy’s name because he is a minor.) The >> son missed family curfews, failed to complete homework assignments, >> got Ds in school, neglected chores and stole. >> Nothing they did seemed to change his behavior, the parents said. >> Grady Machnick said he tried at first to use positive reinforcement, >> giving his son movie tickets and cash as rewards for good behavior. >> When that failed, the couple tried gradually stiffening their >> discipline, hoping something would click. They asked their son to sign >> a contract promising to improve his behavior. When he strayed, they >> grounded him. >> Eventually, Grady Machnick concluded that more serious measures were >> needed to get through to his son, whom he described to a social worker >> as "one kid who pushes the limit." >> In court papers, Orange County prosecutors detailed 19 acts that they >> contend amount to felony conspiracy by the Machnicks. >> Sixteen of those incidents involve allegations of emotional or >> psychological abuse. The parents acknowledge many of these episodes, >> though they dispute certain details recounted by their son. >> The remaining three incidents involve alleged physical violence. Grady >> Machnick is accused of punching his son in the stomach and pushing him >> against a wall. The stepmother allegedly struck the boy in the leg, >> causing a bruise. Both parents deny hitting the child. >> ‘We Have to Push’ >> Last year, when the boy failed to clean up dog droppings in the >> backyard, his stepmother confronted him and demanded that he propose a >> punishment. He suggested that if it happened again, his parents should >> place the droppings in his bedroom. >> Deborah Machnick later told investigators she thought the idea was >> reasonable and asked that he put it in writing. >> Within a few weeks, he was again failing to clean up after the dogs. >> So she placed dog droppings in the boy’s backpack before he went to >> school. She later told a police detective that her actions "sent the >> message" and the boy began cleaning up after the dogs. >> "We have to push," the stepmother said, according to a police report. >> When the Machnicks suspected their son of stealing cash from them, >> they imposed a new punishment. When Grady Machnick left for work at 4 >> a.m., he would roust his son from bed and escort him from the house. >> The boy was not allowed back inside until his father returned from >> work in the afternoon. Authorities said this policy remained in effect >> for nearly 18 months. >> A detective later asked Grady Machnick how he expected the boy to go >> to the bathroom if he was locked out of the house. The father replied: >> "There’s the park down the way. That’s open 24 hours." >> The teenager told authorities that his stepmother took photos of him >> nude and threatened to plaster them around school if his behavior >> didn’t improve. Deborah Machnick told investigators she took the >> photographs to make a point about his behavior but said her >> recollection was that he was wearing underwear at the time.
… read more »
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You know, I have a couple of difficult kids, too. And there have >certainly been times when I have been at my wits end, especially before >they were dx’d. But I have no medical training and no formal psychology >background, and I knew better than this. I got on the net, I went to >bookstores, I badgered doctors until I had answers that would help. >How could these people, with their backgrounds, not *know what they were >doing was torturing that child? >I hope they lock them both up. >Liz > I hope they do too. But this came from those parents having been abused as > kids themselves, and secretly wanting to abuse someone smaller to get back > at SOMEBODY for their OWN abuse as children. That IS where authoritarian > punitiveness and sick political Rightism all comes from. It’s a mantal > illness. The entire Republican party is actually just the symptom of a > mental illness of a minority of people. > Steve
Steve, As a republican, naturally I disagree with you. I grew up believing that we *should* have essentially what we earn in this life. The concept that each of us should have part of what the hard-working bunch down the road have earned because the world is simply *supposed* to provide for me, seems a bit foreign. I see liberals as having a touch of "You people go out, build businesses, work extra hours, and then give me some of it, because I have *needs*. That’s an intentional overstatement, still that’s my twist on the concept that the undefined "they", either govt or the successful, are responsible for taking care of "me" because darn it, I have needs and goodies should flow my way to meet those needs. If you’re declaring me mentally ill for wanting to keep what I earn, and respecting those who make the investment of years to earn more, then I’m as nutty as can be. SpiritQuest my pantry is full because *I* filled it
Response:
>You know, I have a couple of difficult kids, too. And there have >certainly been times when I have been at my wits end, especially before >they were dx’d. But I have no medical training and no formal psychology >background, and I knew better than this. I got on the net, I went to >bookstores, I badgered doctors until I had answers that would help. >How could these people, with their backgrounds, not *know what they were >doing was torturing that child? >I hope they lock them both up. >Liz
I hope they do too. But this came from those parents having been abused as kids themselves, and secretly wanting to abuse someone smaller to get back at SOMEBODY for their OWN abuse as children. That IS where authoritarian punitiveness and sick political Rightism all comes from. It’s a mantal illness. The entire Republican party is actually just the symptom of a mental illness of a minority of people. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Los Angeles Times > November 21 2002 > Tough Love or Abuse? > Orange County couple say that making their teen sleep outside and > putting dog feces in his backpack was discipline, not endangerment. > By Stuart Pfeifer > Times Staff Writer > Grady and Deborah Machnick were distressed about their teenage son’s > behavior. His chores went unfinished. His grades were slipping. He > stole money from them and shoplifted at the local supermarket. > So the parents took drastic steps. > Grady Machnick, a Los Angeles County sheriff’s sergeant, and his wife, > an elementary school principal, locked the boy out of the house until > he finished his algebra homework. Some nights, they forced him to > sleep outside on a dog mat. > When the boy didn’t pick up after the family dogs, his stepmother > scooped up droppings from the backyard and put them in his backpack > before he went to school. > Often, he was excluded from the dinner table, forced to eat leftovers > in the kitchen while the rest of the family dined on fresh-cooked > meals. > The Machnicks say they did this to discipline a wayward son before he > got into even worse trouble. Prosecutors say their actions were not > only misguided but also criminal. > The parents went on trial this week in a child-endangerment case the > likes of which prosecutors say they’ve never seen before. Most child > abuse involves sudden, violent acts. This case focuses on what Orange > County authorities describe as premeditated psychological cruelty. > Essentially, the Machnicks are accused of going overboard in their > efforts to curb their son’s behavior — efforts that, by their > account, began with "positive reinforcement" and other steps right out > of a parenting self-help book. Implicitly, the case asks the justice > system to define when parental tough love veers into criminality. > The Machnicks are charged with misdemeanor child endangerment and > felony conspiracy. If convicted of both offenses, they could each be > sentenced to up to three years in prison. Jury selection began > Wednesday in Superior Court in Newport Beach. > The couple, who have pleaded not guilty, do not dispute many of the > allegations, though they deny ever physically harming the boy, now a > 16-year-old high school junior. When authorities confronted them last > year, the parents insisted that there was a constructive purpose > behind the punishments they devised. > "One of my biggest regrets is I was unable to find a form of behavior > modification that would work," Grady Machnick said in a written > statement released by his attorney, John Barnett. The boy "has great > potential but simply would not obey school or home rules." > The Machnicks declined to be interviewed for this story. Barnett says > they should be applauded for caring deeply about their child’s welfare > and going to great lengths to deal with his problems. > "This building is filled with people whose parents didn’t care," > Barnett said in court recently. "These parents cared and now they’re > being prosecuted…. They were trying to do something to get his > attention, without causing physical harm." > But in the process, authorities say, they inflicted psychological > harm. That the Machnicks were professionals trained to deal with > troublesome behavior makes their conduct all the more disturbing, > investigators say. > "Grady is a sergeant with the Los Angeles [County] Sheriff’s > Department. He should know as well as Deborah that the actions they > are taking against [the boy] are unreasonable and constitute child > abuse," said a report written by Dean Fleig, the police detective who > investigated the case. > "Both of these people are obligated to report child abuse when it is > brought to their attention," Fleig wrote, "and they are engaging in it > themselves." > An Ideal Setting > The Machnicks live in a tidy, two-story home on Sunwest Circle, a > Yorba Linda cul-de-sac. The street is lined with palm trees and > manicured lawns, the kind of place where front doors are decorated > with signs that say "Welcome Friends." > When the Machnicks moved in about five years ago, they told neighbors > they were thrilled to be living in the community. Their two oldest > children, Grady’s son and daughter from a previous marriage, became > active in athletics. Their younger daughter rode horses and took piano > lessons. > Neighbors described Deborah Machnick, 46, as a friendly person who > strolled through the neighborhood at Christmastime, passing out > holiday gifts. One year it was a bottle of wine with a decorative > label. Another year it was cookie dough, with baking instructions. > She was an elementary school principal in Walnut, most recently at the > C.J. Morris school. Deborah Machnick, who had recently earned her > doctorate in education, was known for her efforts to boost the > self-esteem of students. At back-to-school nights, she gave parents > pep talks about motivating children. She spoke about children as > future leaders and invited parents to ceremonies honoring the school’s > students of the month. > Grady Machnick, also 46, was a supervisor at the Men’s Central Jail in > downtown Los Angeles. > The couple earned nearly $200,000 between them, drove a new Toyota > 4Runner and owned a vacation cabin in the San Bernardino Mountains. > But behind closed doors, they struggled with Grady Machnick’s son, > according to interviews, court records and social-services reports. > (The Times is withholding the boy’s name because he is a minor.) The > son missed family curfews, failed to complete homework assignments, > got Ds in school, neglected chores and stole. > Nothing they did seemed to change his behavior, the parents said. > Grady Machnick said he tried at first to use positive reinforcement, > giving his son movie tickets and cash as rewards for good behavior. > When that failed, the couple tried gradually stiffening their > discipline, hoping something would click. They asked their son to sign > a contract promising to improve his behavior. When he strayed, they > grounded him. > Eventually, Grady Machnick concluded that more serious measures were > needed to get through to his son, whom he described to a social worker > as "one kid who pushes the limit." > In court papers, Orange County prosecutors detailed 19 acts that they > contend amount to felony conspiracy by the Machnicks. > Sixteen of those incidents involve allegations of emotional or > psychological abuse. The parents acknowledge many of these episodes, > though they dispute certain details recounted by their son. > The remaining three incidents involve alleged physical violence. Grady > Machnick is accused of punching his son in the stomach and pushing him > against a wall. The stepmother allegedly struck the boy in the leg, > causing a bruise. Both parents deny hitting the child. > ‘We Have to Push’ > Last year, when the boy failed to clean up dog droppings in the > backyard, his stepmother confronted him and demanded that he propose a > punishment. He suggested that if it happened again, his parents should > place the droppings in his bedroom. > Deborah Machnick later told investigators she thought the idea was > reasonable and asked that he put it in writing. > Within a few weeks, he was again failing to clean up after the dogs. > So she placed dog droppings in the boy’s backpack before he went to > school. She later told a police detective that her actions "sent the > message" and the boy began cleaning up after the dogs. > "We have to push," the stepmother said, according to a police report. > When the Machnicks suspected their son of stealing cash from them, > they imposed a new punishment. When Grady Machnick left for work at 4 > a.m., he would roust his son from bed and escort him from the house. > The boy was not allowed back inside until his father returned from > work in the afternoon. Authorities said this policy remained in effect > for nearly 18 months. > A detective later asked Grady Machnick how he expected the boy to go > to the bathroom if he was locked out of the house. The father replied: > "There’s the park down the way. That’s open 24 hours." > The teenager told authorities that his stepmother took photos of him > nude and threatened to plaster them around school if his behavior > didn’t improve. Deborah Machnick told investigators she took the > photographs to make a point about his behavior but said her > recollection was that he was wearing underwear at the time. > The parents also removed all the belongings from the boy’s room, > including his clothing, and forced him to earn them back with good
… read more »
Response:
You know, I have a couple of difficult kids, too. And there have certainly been times when I have been at my wits end, especially before they were dx’d. But I have no medical training and no formal psychology background, and I knew better than this. I got on the net, I went to bookstores, I badgered doctors until I had answers that would help. How could these people, with their backgrounds, not *know what they were doing was torturing that child? I hope they lock them both up. Liz http://welshwop.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Los Angeles Times > November 21 2002 > Tough Love or Abuse? > Orange County couple say that making their teen sleep outside and > putting dog feces in his backpack was discipline, not endangerment. > By Stuart Pfeifer > Times Staff Writer > Grady and Deborah Machnick were distressed about their teenage son’s > behavior. His chores went unfinished. His grades were slipping. He > stole money from them and shoplifted at the local supermarket. > So the parents took drastic steps. > Grady Machnick, a Los Angeles County sheriff’s sergeant, and his wife, > an elementary school principal, locked the boy out of the house until > he finished his algebra homework. Some nights, they forced him to > sleep outside on a dog mat. > When the boy didn’t pick up after the family dogs, his stepmother > scooped up droppings from the backyard and put them in his backpack > before he went to school. > Often, he was excluded from the dinner table, forced to eat leftovers > in the kitchen while the rest of the family dined on fresh-cooked > meals. > The Machnicks say they did this to discipline a wayward son before he > got into even worse trouble. Prosecutors say their actions were not > only misguided but also criminal. > The parents went on trial this week in a child-endangerment case the > likes of which prosecutors say they’ve never seen before. Most child > abuse involves sudden, violent acts. This case focuses on what Orange > County authorities describe as premeditated psychological cruelty. > Essentially, the Machnicks are accused of going overboard in their > efforts to curb their son’s behavior — efforts that, by their > account, began with "positive reinforcement" and other steps right out > of a parenting self-help book. Implicitly, the case asks the justice > system to define when parental tough love veers into criminality. > The Machnicks are charged with misdemeanor child endangerment and > felony conspiracy. If convicted of both offenses, they could each be > sentenced to up to three years in prison. Jury selection began > Wednesday in Superior Court in Newport Beach. > The couple, who have pleaded not guilty, do not dispute many of the > allegations, though they deny ever physically harming the boy, now a > 16-year-old high school junior. When authorities confronted them last > year, the parents insisted that there was a constructive purpose > behind the punishments they devised. > "One of my biggest regrets is I was unable to find a form of behavior > modification that would work," Grady Machnick said in a written > statement released by his attorney, John Barnett. The boy "has great > potential but simply would not obey school or home rules." > The Machnicks declined to be interviewed for this story. Barnett says > they should be applauded for caring deeply about their child’s welfare > and going to great lengths to deal with his problems. > "This building is filled with people whose parents didn’t care," > Barnett said in court recently. "These parents cared and now they’re > being prosecuted…. They were trying to do something to get his > attention, without causing physical harm." > But in the process, authorities say, they inflicted psychological > harm. That the Machnicks were professionals trained to deal with > troublesome behavior makes their conduct all the more disturbing, > investigators say. > "Grady is a sergeant with the Los Angeles [County] Sheriff’s > Department. He should know as well as Deborah that the actions they > are taking against [the boy] are unreasonable and constitute child > abuse," said a report written by Dean Fleig, the police detective who > investigated the case. > "Both of these people are obligated to report child abuse when it is > brought to their attention," Fleig wrote, "and they are engaging in it > themselves." > An Ideal Setting > The Machnicks live in a tidy, two-story home on Sunwest Circle, a > Yorba Linda cul-de-sac. The street is lined with palm trees and > manicured lawns, the kind of place where front doors are decorated > with signs that say "Welcome Friends." > When the Machnicks moved in about five years ago, they told neighbors > they were thrilled to be living in the community. Their two oldest > children, Grady’s son and daughter from a previous marriage, became > active in athletics. Their younger daughter rode horses and took piano > lessons. > Neighbors described Deborah Machnick, 46, as a friendly person who > strolled through the neighborhood at Christmastime, passing out > holiday gifts. One year it was a bottle of wine with a decorative > label. Another year it was cookie dough, with baking instructions. > She was an elementary school principal in Walnut, most recently at the > C.J. Morris school. Deborah Machnick, who had recently earned her > doctorate in education, was known for her efforts to boost the > self-esteem of students. At back-to-school nights, she gave parents > pep talks about motivating children. She spoke about children as > future leaders and invited parents to ceremonies honoring the school’s > students of the month. > Grady Machnick, also 46, was a supervisor at the Men’s Central Jail in > downtown Los Angeles. > The couple earned nearly $200,000 between them, drove a new Toyota > 4Runner and owned a vacation cabin in the San Bernardino Mountains. > But behind closed doors, they struggled with Grady Machnick’s son, > according to interviews, court records and social-services reports. > (The Times is withholding the boy’s name because he is a minor.) The > son missed family curfews, failed to complete homework assignments, > got Ds in school, neglected chores and stole. > Nothing they did seemed to change his behavior, the parents said. > Grady Machnick said he tried at first to use positive reinforcement, > giving his son movie tickets and cash as rewards for good behavior. > When that failed, the couple tried gradually stiffening their > discipline, hoping something would click. They asked their son to sign > a contract promising to improve his behavior. When he strayed, they > grounded him. > Eventually, Grady Machnick concluded that more serious measures were > needed to get through to his son, whom he described to a social worker > as "one kid who pushes the limit." > In court papers, Orange County prosecutors detailed 19 acts that they > contend amount to felony conspiracy by the Machnicks. > Sixteen of those incidents involve allegations of emotional or > psychological abuse. The parents acknowledge many of these episodes, > though they dispute certain details recounted by their son. > The remaining three incidents involve alleged physical violence. Grady > Machnick is accused of punching his son in the stomach and pushing him > against a wall. The stepmother allegedly struck the boy in the leg, > causing a bruise. Both parents deny hitting the child. > ‘We Have to Push’ > Last year, when the boy failed to clean up dog droppings in the > backyard, his stepmother confronted him and demanded that he propose a > punishment. He suggested that if it happened again, his parents should > place the droppings in his bedroom. > Deborah Machnick later told investigators she thought the idea was > reasonable and asked that he put it in writing. > Within a few weeks, he was again failing to clean up after the dogs. > So she placed dog droppings in the boy’s backpack before he went to > school. She later told a police detective that her actions "sent the > message" and the boy began cleaning up after the dogs. > "We have to push," the stepmother said, according to a police report. > When the Machnicks suspected their son of stealing cash from them, > they imposed a new punishment. When Grady Machnick left for work at 4 > a.m., he would roust his son from bed and escort him from the house. > The boy was not allowed back inside until his father returned from > work in the afternoon. Authorities said this policy remained in effect > for nearly 18 months. > A detective later asked Grady Machnick how he expected the boy to go > to the bathroom if he was locked out of the house. The father replied: > "There’s the park down the way. That’s open 24 hours." > The teenager told authorities that his stepmother took photos of him > nude and threatened to plaster them around school if his behavior > didn’t improve. Deborah Machnick told investigators she took the > photographs to make a point about his behavior but said her > recollection was that he was wearing underwear at the time. > The parents also removed all the belongings from the boy’s room, > including his clothing, and forced him to earn them back with good > behavior, according to social services documents. > Last year, Deborah Machnick decided to tutor the boy in algebra. She > gave him about five pages of additional algebra each night beyond his > school-assigned homework. She told him to finish the work in the > backyard. He was allowed to come inside only after he had done so. > "He was failing algebra, and we were trying to build him up," she told > a social worker. > Sometimes, the boy spent the night in the backyard, sleeping on a dog > mat while the dogs slept in the house. The parents told investigators > their son was to blame for failing to finish his homework. "Five pages > isn’t too much to ask of him in 14 to 16 hours,"
… read more »
Response:
Los Angeles Times November 21 2002 Tough Love or Abuse? Orange County couple say that making their teen sleep outside and putting dog feces in his backpack was discipline, not endangerment. By Stuart Pfeifer Times Staff Writer Grady and Deborah Machnick were distressed about their teenage son’s behavior. His chores went unfinished. His grades were slipping. He stole money from them and shoplifted at the local supermarket. So the parents took drastic steps. Grady Machnick, a Los Angeles County sheriff’s sergeant, and his wife, an elementary school principal, locked the boy out of the house until he finished his algebra homework. Some nights, they forced him to sleep outside on a dog mat. When the boy didn’t pick up after the family dogs, his stepmother scooped up droppings from the backyard and put them in his backpack before he went to school. Often, he was excluded from the dinner table, forced to eat leftovers in the kitchen while the rest of the family dined on fresh-cooked meals. The Machnicks say they did this to discipline a wayward son before he got into even worse trouble. Prosecutors say their actions were not only misguided but also criminal. The parents went on trial this week in a child-endangerment case the likes of which prosecutors say they’ve never seen before. Most child abuse involves sudden, violent acts. This case focuses on what Orange County authorities describe as premeditated psychological cruelty. Essentially, the Machnicks are accused of going overboard in their efforts to curb their son’s behavior — efforts that, by their account, began with "positive reinforcement" and other steps right out of a parenting self-help book. Implicitly, the case asks the justice system to define when parental tough love veers into criminality. The Machnicks are charged with misdemeanor child endangerment and felony conspiracy. If convicted of both offenses, they could each be sentenced to up to three years in prison. Jury selection began Wednesday in Superior Court in Newport Beach. The couple, who have pleaded not guilty, do not dispute many of the allegations, though they deny ever physically harming the boy, now a 16-year-old high school junior. When authorities confronted them last year, the parents insisted that there was a constructive purpose behind the punishments they devised. "One of my biggest regrets is I was unable to find a form of behavior modification that would work," Grady Machnick said in a written statement released by his attorney, John Barnett. The boy "has great potential but simply would not obey school or home rules." The Machnicks declined to be interviewed for this story. Barnett says they should be applauded for caring deeply about their child’s welfare and going to great lengths to deal with his problems. "This building is filled with people whose parents didn’t care," Barnett said in court recently. "These parents cared and now they’re being prosecuted…. They were trying to do something to get his attention, without causing physical harm." But in the process, authorities say, they inflicted psychological harm. That the Machnicks were professionals trained to deal with troublesome behavior makes their conduct all the more disturbing, investigators say. "Grady is a sergeant with the Los Angeles [County] Sheriff’s Department. He should know as well as Deborah that the actions they are taking against [the boy] are unreasonable and constitute child abuse," said a report written by Dean Fleig, the police detective who investigated the case. "Both of these people are obligated to report child abuse when it is brought to their attention," Fleig wrote, "and they are engaging in it themselves." An Ideal Setting The Machnicks live in a tidy, two-story home on Sunwest Circle, a Yorba Linda cul-de-sac. The street is lined with palm trees and manicured lawns, the kind of place where front doors are decorated with signs that say "Welcome Friends." When the Machnicks moved in about five years ago, they told neighbors they were thrilled to be living in the community. Their two oldest children, Grady’s son and daughter from a previous marriage, became active in athletics. Their younger daughter rode horses and took piano lessons. Neighbors described Deborah Machnick, 46, as a friendly person who strolled through the neighborhood at Christmastime, passing out holiday gifts. One year it was a bottle of wine with a decorative label. Another year it was cookie dough, with baking instructions. She was an elementary school principal in Walnut, most recently at the C.J. Morris school. Deborah Machnick, who had recently earned her doctorate in education, was known for her efforts to boost the self-esteem of students. At back-to-school nights, she gave parents pep talks about motivating children. She spoke about children as future leaders and invited parents to ceremonies honoring the school’s students of the month. Grady Machnick, also 46, was a supervisor at the Men’s Central Jail in downtown Los Angeles. The couple earned nearly $200,000 between them, drove a new Toyota 4Runner and owned a vacation cabin in the San Bernardino Mountains. But behind closed doors, they struggled with Grady Machnick’s son, according to interviews, court records and social-services reports. (The Times is withholding the boy’s name because he is a minor.) The son missed family curfews, failed to complete homework assignments, got Ds in school, neglected chores and stole. Nothing they did seemed to change his behavior, the parents said. Grady Machnick said he tried at first to use positive reinforcement, giving his son movie tickets and cash as rewards for good behavior. When that failed, the couple tried gradually stiffening their discipline, hoping something would click. They asked their son to sign a contract promising to improve his behavior. When he strayed, they grounded him. Eventually, Grady Machnick concluded that more serious measures were needed to get through to his son, whom he described to a social worker as "one kid who pushes the limit." In court papers, Orange County prosecutors detailed 19 acts that they contend amount to felony conspiracy by the Machnicks. Sixteen of those incidents involve allegations of emotional or psychological abuse. The parents acknowledge many of these episodes, though they dispute certain details recounted by their son. The remaining three incidents involve alleged physical violence. Grady Machnick is accused of punching his son in the stomach and pushing him against a wall. The stepmother allegedly struck the boy in the leg, causing a bruise. Both parents deny hitting the child. ‘We Have to Push’ Last year, when the boy failed to clean up dog droppings in the backyard, his stepmother confronted him and demanded that he propose a punishment. He suggested that if it happened again, his parents should place the droppings in his bedroom. Deborah Machnick later told investigators she thought the idea was reasonable and asked that he put it in writing. Within a few weeks, he was again failing to clean up after the dogs. So she placed dog droppings in the boy’s backpack before he went to school. She later told a police detective that her actions "sent the message" and the boy began cleaning up after the dogs. "We have to push," the stepmother said, according to a police report. When the Machnicks suspected their son of stealing cash from them, they imposed a new punishment. When Grady Machnick left for work at 4 a.m., he would roust his son from bed and escort him from the house. The boy was not allowed back inside until his father returned from work in the afternoon. Authorities said this policy remained in effect for nearly 18 months. A detective later asked Grady Machnick how he expected the boy to go to the bathroom if he was locked out of the house. The father replied: "There’s the park down the way. That’s open 24 hours." The teenager told authorities that his stepmother took photos of him nude and threatened to plaster them around school if his behavior didn’t improve. Deborah Machnick told investigators she took the photographs to make a point about his behavior but said her recollection was that he was wearing underwear at the time. The parents also removed all the belongings from the boy’s room, including his clothing, and forced him to earn them back with good behavior, according to social services documents. Last year, Deborah Machnick decided to tutor the boy in algebra. She gave him about five pages of additional algebra each night beyond his school-assigned homework. She told him to finish the work in the backyard. He was allowed to come inside only after he had done so. "He was failing algebra, and we were trying to build him up," she told a social worker. Sometimes, the boy spent the night in the backyard, sleeping on a dog mat while the dogs slept in the house. The parents told investigators their son was to blame for failing to finish his homework. "Five pages isn’t too much to ask of him in 14 to 16 hours," the father said, according to investigators’ reports. Living With Friends In May 2001, the boy ran away. He arrived at his best friend’s house after 1 a.m., his hair soaking wet. He told his friend that his father had awakened him by dousing him with several gallons of water to punish him for returning home late from school the day before. A week later, the friend’s family told police that the Machnicks’ son was living with them. When a detective interviewed Grady Machnick about his treatment of the boy, the father’s first words were: "He didn’t commit any crimes, did he?" A few weeks later, when a social worker told him his son wanted to come home, Machnick said he would take him back only if he could continue with his disciplinary regimen, a county social worker reported. Authorities placed the boy in the custody of the best friend’s family. Social worker Curtis Vaughn, who spent weeks investigating the … read more »
Response:
Posted in Parenting FAQ | 
No Comments » | 
GramPaHugs, Alex, — Any information is included for informational or entertainment purposes only, No endorsement is implied or intended. Before taking any supplement check with your pharmacist for drug interactions. * Love radiating from 45.10n x 93.30w M/SP Mn * Care giver to THE SACRED TEMPLE CATS of the Kingdom of W.H.I.N.E. * <a href="http://home.mn.rr.com/apbiii/whine.html">AOL Click</a> * Medical Links for Fibromyalgia, Arthritis, ME/CFIDS, * <a href="http://home.mn.rr.com/apbiii/medical.htm">AOL Click</a> * Don’t worry about life, * you’re not going to survive it anyway 