Question:
> 10 months old? Oh my god I can’t believe anyone would > be this abusive. Your poor child. It is shit like this > that people have nightmares and flashbacks and mental > disorders. Remember that the majority of people > suffering from multiple personality disorders also > suffered child abuse, especially at an early age (and > sexual abuse at times also). I can’t believe someone > would be so stupid as to hit a 10 month old. Someone > should have taken this kid away from you the first time > you touched it.
I can believe people hit 10 month olds. And three month olds, 14 month olds, and any age you can mention. I believe this because it is true. In all the parenting classes I have taught and still teach, I am reminded how acceptable hitting and hurting children is in this culture (US). Parents proudly state that they smack, slap, hit, tap, swat their children, beginning in infancy. LaVonne
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 10 months old? Oh my god I can’t believe anyone would > be this abusive. Your poor child. It is shit like this > that people have nightmares and flashbacks and mental > disorders. Remember that the majority of people > suffering from multiple personality disorders also > suffered child abuse, especially at an early age (and > sexual abuse at times also). I can’t believe someone > would be so stupid as to hit a 10 month old. Someone > should have taken this kid away from you the first time > you touched it. >I can believe people hit 10 month olds. And three month olds, 14 month >olds, and any age you can mention. I believe this because it is true. >In all the parenting classes I have taught and still teach, I am >reminded how acceptable hitting and hurting children is in this culture >(US). Parents proudly state that they smack, slap, hit, tap, swat >their children, beginning in infancy. >LaVonne
And CPS proudly beats, molests, and kills thousands of kids. You conveniently forgot to mention this again LaVonne, I wonder why. Does that mean you support CPS and foster care prisons? Or does that mean you are afraid to speak up for children? Either way you’re a loser. Bill
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [snip] > : (She left out the things that were not so wonderful) and then she > : proudly told her young friend that she was wearing panties. Being as > : that the last spanking was just two weeks ago, she does still remember > : the spanking, but like most childhood memories, it will fade into > : nothingness as she ages, and will likely be gone before next Christmas. > She probably *will* forget the specific episodic memory of you > spanking her in order to "train" her to use the potty. Pretty much all > autobiographic memories are lost from age two. But just because people > don’t consciously remember maltreatment episodes from early in life does > not mean such episodes are harmless, irrelevant, or have no lasting > effects.
Yes, I am aware of that. I know that if my daughter craps in her pants when she’s 35, she will have a great deal of anxiety over it. Further, she will not understand why she is so anxious. It could be very traumatic for her. Was there some other thing that you were referring to. What was it? Tony, who is still the Antichris.
Response:
> And since having an accident in your underwear doens’t > have a painful consequence, you have to inflict it on > your child.
Exactly.. and once you do, there are no more accidents. I’m glad you are finally getting it. Tony.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >How can telling your child she is a good girl be punitive?? How can >> >encouragement be coercive? I think that you are the one, with your gross >> >generalizations, who is absurd. >> Whoa! Spanking a kid and telling her, along with the spanking, >> that she is good is one heck of a way to lead them into a life of >> spanking fetishes. >> Come on, guy! THINK! >Yesterday, my young daughter was on put on the phone with a small friend >whom she had not seen for quite some time. It took a moment before >recognition washed across her face, and then she was talking in an >almost incomprehensible babble. First came the telling of the joys of >Christmas, and the iteration of all the wonderful things she received, >(She left out the things that were not so wonderful) and then she >proudly told her young friend that she was wearing panties. Being as >that the last spanking was just two weeks ago, she does still remember >the spanking, but like most childhood memories, it will fade into >nothingness as she ages, and will likely be gone before next Christmas. > Well, as long as you are locked up on the short-term benefits to > you, then I guess that you are not even slightly interested in > hearing about the long-term harm that tends to come from > spanking.
I most certainly am interested, and have yet to see *anything* substantial. I expect that I have seen none because you have none. > BTW, how did you get from the perception that we remember > *everything* to this bit about this spanking memory shortly > fading into nothingness? Could it be because it was convenient > for you to see it this way, suddenly because it would allow you > to continue your controlling methods?
Nothingness was the wrong word to use. What I was trying to say is that she would not be fixated on it. Though the memory of it will remain, she will not recall that information. It’s importance is what will really fade into nothingness. Tony.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [snip] > : > You spanked her for messing her pants, but you did it > : > non-coercively? > : > > : > You spanked her for messing her pants, but you did it > : > non-punitively? > : > > : > Don’t be absurd. > : How can telling your child she is a good girl be punitive?? How can > : encouragement be coercive? I think that you are the one, with your gross > : generalizations, who is absurd. > Did you, or did you not use spankings to "correct" your daughter > as part of her toilet training? Check one: > yes ____ no ____
I think we are a little old for childish games.. Don’t you. > Spanking is both coercive and punitive. > Chris
I have checked with my dictionary and it turns out that you are half correct. I was coercive, but I was not punitive, and a spanking is coercive by nature but there is nothing to say that it must be punitive. There is also nothing to say that being coercive is wrong, and I have seen several coercive and punishing posts from parents who are against spanking. Tony.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->: How can telling your child she is a good girl be punitive?? How can >: encouragement be coercive? I think that you are the one, with your gross >: generalizations, who is absurd. > Did you, or did you not use spankings to "correct" your daughter >as part of her toilet training? Check one: > yes ____ no ____ > Spanking is both coercive and punitive. > And if the spanking is dressed up all pretty with a "atta girl", > it just sends those delightful mixed messages. Kids have most > interesting ways of dealing with mixed messages. They tend to > interpret them in ways that make sense to *them*.
There was no mixed message. You are making assumptions. You know what they say about those, don’t you? Tony.
Response:
> : Well I have a 7yr old son named William and when
he was potty training we > : would > : have never used spanking (even though we do to
discipline) to force him to > : potty train. He ran behind most kids in the potty
training time. But at the > : time he had just lost some one speacial to him and I felt that in his > : emotional > : state that to force him to potty train would only upset him further. > I applaud your sensitivity in recognizing
the emotional issues he > was going through, Amanda, and how they may have
been hindering his toilet > training progress. >Agreed.. > : But from > : my own research in asking around boys seem to be
more difficult to potty train > : than girls and children in general do much better
potty training if they are > : let do it in their own time.Spanking however has a
bad effect and could prolong > : the potty training of any child. > And even when coercive approaches to toilet training seem to > "work" in the short run, they can be extremely
harmful to the child > emotionally. >Agree also… > PSYCHOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE > Back in the 19th century, children of the middle and upper > classes were often raised by nannies. These nannies were employees who > were less bonded to the children, if at all, than
their natural mothers, > and who favored potty training by the quickest
methods possible since it > made their difficult, underpaid job a little less
difficult. In the early > 20th century, as modern psychotherapy was taking shape, therapists’ > couches were full of people with various neuroses, compulsions and > obsessions which traced back to rapid, forced toilet training based on > spankings. >BS. Those people were on those couches because they were told that they >were bad when they were spanked, and because they were raised without >the love of their parents. Children who have that
love can survive any >experience without needing therapy. > One hears less about toilet training traumas
nowadays, because in > the twentieth century, more and more parents
recognized the wiser approach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> which you advocate, Amanda, and didn’t inflict these sorts of needless > traumas on their youngsters. >I’ve said it before, and here it is again.. It is the words that are >most important. People who spank their children and tell them that are >bad are just asking for trouble. Children believe most anything that you >tell them.. If you tell them they are bad, they will believe you, and >they will act in accordance to that belief. > PHYSIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE > The urethra, which drains the bladder, and
the anus, both contain > two sets of muscular sphincters: an internal smooth muscle sphincter, > which is involuntary, and an external skeletal
muscle sphincter which is > voluntary. Although the external sphincters are
"voluntary," conscious > control of them is a learned behavior – just like
riding a bicycle. Yet > parents who would never dream of spanking their
child to "correct" them > from falling off their bicycle will spank their
child to "correct" them > for incomplete mastery of the learned skill of sphincter control. >Falling off of a bike has its own painful consequence.
And since having an accident in your underwear doens’t have a painful consequence, you have to inflict it on your child. > There is a physiological basis for why
punitive, pain-oriented > approaches to potty training appear to "work" in the short run. The > *internal* sphincters are under the unconscious,
involuntary control of > the autonomic nervous system. When a person is
afraid, the sympathetic > branch of the autonomic nervous system (known also as the "fight or > flight" response) is activated. Among the many
effects of activation of > the sympathetic nervous system: constriction of the
internal sphincters of > the urethra and anus. >Being punitive with violence is not something that I am an advocate of. >I incorporated spankings into my sons potty training, which reflection >tells me I started to early. (10mths). He is six now, and I have not >noticed any negative effects.
10 months old? Oh my god I can’t believe anyone would be this abusive. Your poor child. It is shit like this that people have nightmares and flashbacks and mental disorders. Remember that the majority of people suffering from multiple personality disorders also suffered child abuse, especially at an early age (and sexual abuse at times also). I can’t believe someone would be so stupid as to hit a 10 month old. Someone should have taken this kid away from you the first time you touched it. > Hence, when a child subjected to punitive
toilet training feels > themselves beginning to void urine or pass feces, a stab of fear races > through them: "OH NO! I being bad again! Now I will get another > SPANKING!!!" Their fright causes the involuntary
sphincters to contract > and may give them time to make it to the potty and
sit on it. Once they > are sitting on the potty, their fear begins to
subside because they are > out of danger. As their fear subsides, the
sympathetic activation recedes > and the involuntary sphincters relax, permitting the
passage of stool and > urine. >Yep.. Like I said.. They were told they were bad. That is the real >mistake, and it is a mistake no matter what you are trying to teach >them. > This is most emphatically not potty
"training." Children > subjected to this kind of terrorizing due to
something which is really > outside their conscious control have not mastered voluntary sphincter > control, even though they may appear to be "trained" in that they create > fewer messes for their parents to clean up. These
are children who have > been hurt, traumatized and frightened so that their parents can enjoy a > little more short term convenience and a little less
work than otherwise. >I know the kind of toilet training that you are
referring to, and I do >agree with you. What I disagree with is your
generalization. Spanking a >child during training does not make it punitive.
It makes it abusive. It is the things that >are said to the child that make that distinction. > If there was ever an example of spanking
serving the interests of > parents and not serving the interests of children,
spanking-oriented potty > training is it! >I disagree with that one.. Spankings are a gift that loving parents give >to their children.
No, spankings are an abusive outlet for parents who don’t know what else to do. I love my children and would die for them if it came to it but I would never "spank" them. A gift? Let your wife (or husband, whatever you are) hit you and tell you she loves you. I guess you agree with domestic abuse- a spouse abusing the other spouse. Normal people don’t think hitting is right. I guess all these elderly people in nursing homes should be hit since they have accidents in their pants. I hope your poor kid wasn’t like me and wet the bed. I wet the bed until I was 7 and my mother beat me with a belt every morning. It got to where I couldn’t sleep at night because I was scared I’d wet the bed. I tried so hard not to but I couldn’t help it. I can’t believe there are parents stupider than mine. At least mine didn’t hit me at 10 months because I couldn’t potty train. What kind of idiot thinks a 10 month old can be potty trained, anyway? I feel for your son and I hope he doesn’t have the problems I did and still do because of this kind of shit where the parent thinks he’s god and can do whatever he wants. Marie http://go.to/mommydowis If you had used the word beating, I would be in >agreement. In fact, I would agree with you most of the time if that >were the word you used.
Spanking and beating are the same thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Tony 
Response:
>: How can telling your child she is a good girl be punitive?? How can >: encouragement be coercive? I think that you are the one, with your gross >: generalizations, who is absurd. > Did you, or did you not use spankings to "correct" your daughter >as part of her toilet training? Check one: > yes ____ no ____ > Spanking is both coercive and punitive.
And if the spanking is dressed up all pretty with a "atta girl", it just sends those delightful mixed messages. Kids have most interesting ways of dealing with mixed messages. They tend to interpret them in ways that make sense to *them*. — Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >How can telling your child she is a good girl be punitive?? How can > >encouragement be coercive? I think that you are the one, with your gross > >generalizations, who is absurd. > Whoa! Spanking a kid and telling her, along with the spanking, > that she is good is one heck of a way to lead them into a life of > spanking fetishes. > Come on, guy! THINK! >Yesterday, my young daughter was on put on the phone with a small friend >whom she had not seen for quite some time. It took a moment before >recognition washed across her face, and then she was talking in an >almost incomprehensible babble. First came the telling of the joys of >Christmas, and the iteration of all the wonderful things she received, >(She left out the things that were not so wonderful) and then she >proudly told her young friend that she was wearing panties. Being as >that the last spanking was just two weeks ago, she does still remember >the spanking, but like most childhood memories, it will fade into >nothingness as she ages, and will likely be gone before next Christmas.
Well, as long as you are locked up on the short-term benefits to you, then I guess that you are not even slightly interested in hearing about the long-term harm that tends to come from spanking. BTW, how did you get from the perception that we remember *everything* to this bit about this spanking memory shortly fading into nothingness? Could it be because it was convenient for you to see it this way, suddenly because it would allow you to continue your controlling methods? — Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(KathyIg) writes: >Tony Peardon says: ><< Spankings are a gift that loving parents give to their children. >> >To use your own hand to inflict pain on your child and call this a "gift" is >scary. I know a lot of parents who believe in spanking. I’m not one of them. >Spanking says to me, "I’ve lost control of the situation and this is the >easiest way to deal with it." Hey, what’s easier — turn your child over your >knee or talk to them about what happened, how it made you feel and what to do >next time? ><< I incorporated spankings into my sons potty training, which reflection >tells >me I started to early. (10mths). >> >Spanking a 10-month old because he pooped his diaper. I’m at a loss for words >at this. >Tom
Don’t get too upset at this. You are at a loss of words. The person who beat the 10 month old child for performing a biological act is at the ‘loss of mind’ statge. Mark Probert A vote for Pat Buchanan is a vote for America’s First Fuhrer!
Response:
[snip] : (She left out the things that were not so wonderful) and then she : proudly told her young friend that she was wearing panties. Being as : that the last spanking was just two weeks ago, she does still remember : the spanking, but like most childhood memories, it will fade into : nothingness as she ages, and will likely be gone before next Christmas. She probably *will* forget the specific episodic memory of you spanking her in order to "train" her to use the potty. Pretty much all autobiographic memories are lost from age two. But just because people don’t consciously remember maltreatment episodes from early in life does not mean such episodes are harmless, irrelevant, or have no lasting effects. Chris, who thought spanking-oriented potty training went out with whalebone corsets and buckboards.
Response:
: : > : I gotta say, again — you, sir, are an idiot! Actually, I didn’t say that, Glen did. I *did* write the following: : > Sphincter control is a learned neuromuscular skill which only : > comes with practice. If spanking as a method of "correction" of mistakes : > in children attempting to master learned neuromuscular skills was actually : > so efficacious, it ought to be useful elsewhere as well. How about : > teaching piano by spanking the child every time they play a wrong note? : > How about teaching a child to ride a two-wheeler bicycle by spanking them : > every time they fall off. : > : > No thinking parent would attempt to teach musical instruments or : > bike riding in this manner. Why would any thinking parent want to teach : > sphincter control this way?? : You misinterpret the reason for the spanking. If potty training, as it is done in your home, is *not* about the child learning sphincter control, what *is* it about? : reason #1. To remove the child from that which has been his comfort zone : so that a new zone of comfort can be more readily attained. Wet, messy pants are never comfortable. Children naturally become toilet trained when they are ready to master sphincter control. And if the sensation of messy pants somehow doesn’t bother them, the reaction of their peer group will, more and more, the older they get. You don’t have to spank your two year old daughter to make messing her pants uncomfortable for her. The natural consequences are uncomfortable. : reason #2. To let the child know that diapers are no longer acceptable : to you. (Children desire to please their parents) ^^^ In other words, "reason #2" is about *your* needs, not her’s. And I think this is what it all boils down to. : reason #3. For kinesthetic reinforcement to the discussion about potty : training. You *hit* her… for *messing her pants*… at the age of TWO! Calling it "kinesthetic reinforcement" does not make this any better. Do you have any response at all to the points I made earlier about the internal/external sphincters, voluntary learned motor skills, and sympathetic nervous system effects? Chris
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> : > The negative long-term effects of coercive, punitive toilet >> : > training have been known for the past century. >> : I was neither coercive nor punitive. >> You spanked her for messing her pants, but you did it >> non-coercively? >> You spanked her for messing her pants, but you did it >> non-punitively? >> Don’t be absurd. >How can telling your child she is a good girl be punitive?? How can >encouragement be coercive? I think that you are the one, with your gross >generalizations, who is absurd. > Whoa! Spanking a kid and telling her, along with the spanking, > that she is good is one heck of a way to lead them into a life of > spanking fetishes. > Come on, guy! THINK!
Yesterday, my young daughter was on put on the phone with a small friend whom she had not seen for quite some time. It took a moment before recognition washed across her face, and then she was talking in an almost incomprehensible babble. First came the telling of the joys of Christmas, and the iteration of all the wonderful things she received, (She left out the things that were not so wonderful) and then she proudly told her young friend that she was wearing panties. Being as that the last spanking was just two weeks ago, she does still remember the spanking, but like most childhood memories, it will fade into nothingness as she ages, and will likely be gone before next Christmas. Tony.
Response:
[snip] : > You spanked her for messing her pants, but you did it : > non-coercively? : > : > You spanked her for messing her pants, but you did it : > non-punitively? : > : > Don’t be absurd. : How can telling your child she is a good girl be punitive?? How can : encouragement be coercive? I think that you are the one, with your gross : generalizations, who is absurd. Did you, or did you not use spankings to "correct" your daughter as part of her toilet training? Check one: yes ____ no ____ Spanking is both coercive and punitive. Chris
Response:
Tony Peardon says: << Spankings are a gift that loving parents give to their children. >> To use your own hand to inflict pain on your child and call this a "gift" is scary. I know a lot of parents who believe in spanking. I’m not one of them. Spanking says to me, "I’ve lost control of the situation and this is the easiest way to deal with it." Hey, what’s easier — turn your child over your knee or talk to them about what happened, how it made you feel and what to do next time? << I incorporated spankings into my sons potty training, which reflection tells me I started to early. (10mths). >> Spanking a 10-month old because he pooped his diaper. I’m at a loss for words at this. Tom
Response:
> >"Those who can, do. Those who cannot, teach" > This is a quote from somebody who was probably incapable of teaching. Those > who can teach, those who can’t become school board members. > Or to quote Mark Twain > "God practiced on idiots, than he moved on to make school boards"
It was actually only half of a quote. It continues… "Those who cannot teach, administrate." Tony
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >"Those who can, do. Those who cannot, teach" > This is a quote from somebody who was probably incapable of teaching. > Those > who can teach, those who can’t become school board members. > Or to quote Mark Twain > "God practiced on idiots, than he moved on to make school boards" > I prefer "those who can, do; those who can do better, teach" although I have > no idea who said. > Or even, "those who can, do; those you care, teach" although again I’m > uncertain of its origins.
I like both of those much better than mine, and if I ever use either of them, I will site you as their origin, because for me, that will be true. Tony.
Response:
>"Those who can, do. Those who cannot, teach" > This is a quote from somebody who was probably incapable of teaching. Those > who can teach, those who can’t become school board members. > Or to quote Mark Twain > "God practiced on idiots, than he moved on to make school boards"
I prefer "those who can, do; those who can do better, teach" although I have no idea who said. Or even, "those who can, do; those you care, teach" although again I’m uncertain of its origins.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> : > The negative long-term effects of coercive, punitive toilet > : > training have been known for the past century. > : I was neither coercive nor punitive. > You spanked her for messing her pants, but you did it > non-coercively? > You spanked her for messing her pants, but you did it > non-punitively? > Don’t be absurd. >How can telling your child she is a good girl be punitive?? How can >encouragement be coercive? I think that you are the one, with your gross >generalizations, who is absurd.
Whoa! Spanking a kid and telling her, along with the spanking, that she is good is one heck of a way to lead them into a life of spanking fetishes. Come on, guy! THINK! Glen (where is Morgan when we really need her?) Appleby — Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : > The negative long-term effects of coercive, punitive toilet > : > training have been known for the past century. > : I was neither coercive nor punitive. > You spanked her for messing her pants, but you did it > non-coercively? > You spanked her for messing her pants, but you did it > non-punitively? > Don’t be absurd.
How can telling your child she is a good girl be punitive?? How can encouragement be coercive? I think that you are the one, with your gross generalizations, who is absurd. Tony. "Those who can, do. Those who cannot, teach"
Response:
: Well I have a 7yr old son named William and when he was potty training we : would : have never used spanking (even though we do to discipline) to force him to : potty train. He ran behind most kids in the potty training time. But at the : time he had just lost some one speacial to him and I felt that in his : emotional : state that to force him to potty train would only upset him further. I applaud your sensitivity in recognizing the emotional issues he was going through, Amanda, and how they may have been hindering his toilet training progress. : But from : my own research in asking around boys seem to be more difficult to potty train : than girls and children in general do much better potty training if they are : let do it in their own time.Spanking however has a bad effect and could prolong : the potty training of any child. And even when coercive approaches to toilet training seem to "work" in the short run, they can be extremely harmful to the child emotionally. PSYCHOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE Back in the 19th century, children of the middle and upper classes were often raised by nannies. These nannies were employees who were less bonded to the children, if at all, than their natural mothers, and who favored potty training by the quickest methods possible since it made their difficult, underpaid job a little less difficult. In the early 20th century, as modern psychotherapy was taking shape, therapists’ couches were full of people with various neuroses, compulsions and obsessions which traced back to rapid, forced toilet training based on spankings. One hears less about toilet training traumas nowadays, because in the twentieth century, more and more parents recognized the wiser approach which you advocate, Amanda, and didn’t inflict these sorts of needless traumas on their youngsters. PHYSIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE The urethra, which drains the bladder, and the anus, both contain two sets of muscular sphincters: an internal smooth muscle sphincter, which is involuntary, and an external skeletal muscle sphincter which is voluntary. Although the external sphincters are "voluntary," conscious control of them is a learned behavior – just like riding a bicycle. Yet parents who would never dream of spanking their child to "correct" them from falling off their bicycle will spank their child to "correct" them for incomplete mastery of the learned skill of sphincter control. There is a physiological basis for why punitive, pain-oriented approaches to potty training appear to "work" in the short run. The *internal* sphincters are under the unconscious, involuntary control of the autonomic nervous system. When a person is afraid, the sympathetic branch of the autonomic nervous system (known also as the "fight or flight" response) is activated. Among the many effects of activation of the sympathetic nervous system: constriction of the internal sphincters of the urethra and anus. Hence, when a child subjected to punitive toilet training feels themselves beginning to void urine or pass feces, a stab of fear races through them: "OH NO! I being bad again! Now I will get another SPANKING!!!" Their fright causes the involuntary sphincters to contract and may give them time to make it to the potty and sit on it. Once they are sitting on the potty, their fear begins to subside because they are out of danger. As their fear subsides, the sympathetic activation recedes and the involuntary sphincters relax, permitting the passage of stool and urine. This is most emphatically not potty "training." Children subjected to this kind of terrorizing due to something which is really outside their conscious control have not mastered voluntary sphincter control, even though they may appear to be "trained" in that they create fewer messes for their parents to clean up. These are children who have been hurt, traumatized and frightened so that their parents can enjoy a little more short term convenience and a little less work than otherwise. If there was ever an example of spanking serving the interests of parents and not serving the interests of children, spanking-oriented potty training is it! Chris
Response:
: > The negative long-term effects of coercive, punitive toilet : > training have been known for the past century. : I was neither coercive nor punitive. You spanked her for messing her pants, but you did it non-coercively? You spanked her for messing her pants, but you did it non-punitively? Don’t be absurd. Chris
Response:
>"Those who can, do. Those who cannot, teach"
This is a quote from somebody who was probably incapable of teaching. Those who can teach, those who can’t become school board members. Or to quote Mark Twain "God practiced on idiots, than he moved on to make school boards"
Response:
> : Well I have a 7yr old son named William and when he was potty training we > : would > : have never used spanking (even though we do to discipline) to force him to > : potty train. He ran behind most kids in the potty training time. But at the > : time he had just lost some one speacial to him and I felt that in his > : emotional > : state that to force him to potty train would only upset him further. > I applaud your sensitivity in recognizing the emotional issues he > was going through, Amanda, and how they may have been hindering his toilet > training progress.
Agreed.. > : But from > : my own research in asking around boys seem to be more difficult to potty train > : than girls and children in general do much better potty training if they are > : let do it in their own time.Spanking however has a bad effect and could prolong > : the potty training of any child. > And even when coercive approaches to toilet training seem to > "work" in the short run, they can be extremely harmful to the child > emotionally.
Agree also… > PSYCHOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE > Back in the 19th century, children of the middle and upper > classes were often raised by nannies. These nannies were employees who > were less bonded to the children, if at all, than their natural mothers, > and who favored potty training by the quickest methods possible since it > made their difficult, underpaid job a little less difficult. In the early > 20th century, as modern psychotherapy was taking shape, therapists’ > couches were full of people with various neuroses, compulsions and > obsessions which traced back to rapid, forced toilet training based on > spankings.
BS. Those people were on those couches because they were told that they were bad when they were spanked, and because they were raised without the love of their parents. Children who have that love can survive any experience without needing therapy. > One hears less about toilet training traumas nowadays, because in > the twentieth century, more and more parents recognized the wiser approach > which you advocate, Amanda, and didn’t inflict these sorts of needless > traumas on their youngsters.
I’ve said it before, and here it is again.. It is the words that are most important. People who spank their children and tell them that are bad are just asking for trouble. Children believe most anything that you tell them.. If you tell them they are bad, they will believe you, and they will act in accordance to that belief. > PHYSIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE > The urethra, which drains the bladder, and the anus, both contain > two sets of muscular sphincters: an internal smooth muscle sphincter, > which is involuntary, and an external skeletal muscle sphincter which is > voluntary. Although the external sphincters are "voluntary," conscious > control of them is a learned behavior – just like riding a bicycle. Yet > parents who would never dream of spanking their child to "correct" them > from falling off their bicycle will spank their child to "correct" them > for incomplete mastery of the learned skill of sphincter control.
Falling off of a bike has its own painful consequence. > There is a physiological basis for why punitive, pain-oriented > approaches to potty training appear to "work" in the short run. The > *internal* sphincters are under the unconscious, involuntary control of > the autonomic nervous system. When a person is afraid, the sympathetic > branch of the autonomic nervous system (known also as the "fight or > flight" response) is activated. Among the many effects of activation of > the sympathetic nervous system: constriction of the internal sphincters of > the urethra and anus.
Being punitive with violence is not something that I am an advocate of. I incorporated spankings into my sons potty training, which reflection tells me I started to early. (10mths). He is six now, and I have not noticed any negative effects. > Hence, when a child subjected to punitive toilet training feels > themselves beginning to void urine or pass feces, a stab of fear races > through them: "OH NO! I being bad again! Now I will get another > SPANKING!!!" Their fright causes the involuntary sphincters to contract > and may give them time to make it to the potty and sit on it. Once they > are sitting on the potty, their fear begins to subside because they are > out of danger. As their fear subsides, the sympathetic activation recedes > and the involuntary sphincters relax, permitting the passage of stool and > urine.
Yep.. Like I said.. They were told they were bad. That is the real mistake, and it is a mistake no matter what you are trying to teach them. > This is most emphatically not potty "training." Children > subjected to this kind of terrorizing due to something which is really > outside their conscious control have not mastered voluntary sphincter > control, even though they may appear to be "trained" in that they create > fewer messes for their parents to clean up. These are children who have > been hurt, traumatized and frightened so that their parents can enjoy a > little more short term convenience and a little less work than otherwise.
I know the kind of toilet training that you are referring to, and I do agree with you. What I disagree with is your generalization. Spanking a child during training does not make it punitive. It is the things that are said to the child that make that distinction. > If there was ever an example of spanking serving the interests of > parents and not serving the interests of children, spanking-oriented potty > training is it!
I disagree with that one.. Spankings are a gift that loving parents give to their children. If you had used the word beating, I would be in agreement. In fact, I would agree with you most of the time if that were the word you used. Tony
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