Pure Parents

Question:

: Some lies are : factual (ie did you eat a piece of cake before dinner? Either you did or : you didn’t)  Kids "lie" for a variety of reasons. Some of it is just having fun, and basically storytelling. Sometimes, it’s a game to see what people will buy. Other times, things get more serious, and the child must consider what they say in order to get the most desired response.  Take the cake question for instance- "did you have a piece of cake before dinner?"  If the child came from an abusive/disturbed household, they might say "No" even though they really did. Consider that if they told the truth and said "Yes" the result might be physical assault or other punishment in their birth parent’s house.  Safer in their mind to lie, and hope to get off the hook. As a child like this settles down into a more stable household, they will mostly realize that their needs will be looked after, and they’re not going to get hit. They will no longer need to double guess their adoptive parents to avoid getting hurt.  There’s also the issue of lack of parental role models to know which truth to tell when, and how much of it.

Response:

> I’m more curious as to what you think "lying" is?

Any words you want to apply, if you ask me where I was, and I make up 5 different stories that cannot all be true, most people can agree that a lie has been told. >:  Treatment: >:  Get the child to write down lies told, what they were feeling at the >:  time, and what the consequences were. >That’s impossible. One could say that every time we fail to spill our >guts, we’re "telling a lie"

Truth is not purely invented to please the teller and listener.   (I enjoy good fiction, but …) > This is not to say that the occasional "whopper" should be ignored. Call >the child on it, get to the root of the matter, and if needed, discuss it. >The idea of leadership is to provide the guidance for the youth to make a >better decision next time.

Now you are at my starting point.  This is where the "disease" theory was brought in. Can I take it you haven’t heard of the disease of lying? Any idea which eminent Psychologist or Educator invented the theory? === Thanks for you comments Elaine,

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  I’m more curious as to what you think "lying" is? Each of us has our own > truths. These truths are never the same from family to family. >  The only way that we can function together is to come to an understanding > about which "truth" to tell who. Family members usually require bigger > doses of someone’s version of truth. Yet if you go too far, you’ll end up > hurting your relative’s feelings if you don’t also learn to keep your big > mouth shut. >  When you’re dealing with a child who grew up learning another adult’s set > of values and interaction, there will always be a gap between your > standards and those of the other parent/s. >  Belive me, you don’t just want the child to be "more truthful". What you > want is for them to adopt your household’s habits of interaction. For > instance- > you don’t especially wish to hear about your spouse’s pornography > collection that the child may have discovered. >  You do want the child to be dependable and to learn to fit in to your > household as gracefully as possible. > That’s impossible. One could say that every time we fail to spill our > guts, we’re "telling a lie". It’s the process of growing up, maturing, > that over time, we learn what to say. We need to learn judgement, and this > doesn’t happen all at one time. Sometimes, the thing left unsaid, or the > white lie, will make the difference between a smoothly running house, and > pure havoc. >  This is not to say that the occasional "whopper" should be ignored. Call > the child on it, get to the root of the matter, and if needed, discuss it. > The idea of leadership is to provide the guidance for the youth to make a > better decision next time.

Elaine, I have to agree with you on this. Just as different families have different views of lying, so do different cultures. What one family may see as "protecting" a child another may see as "lying" (take for example telling a child about a parent’s serious illness). Some lies are factual (ie did you eat a piece of cake before dinner? Either you did or you didn’t) but many more are subjective and are based on the family, culture and emotional environment someone has grown up in. I think you can correct the factual lies much more easily than the subjective ones, and you need to make a difference in the way you treat them.

Response:

>>Premise: >Treatment: >Okay, I don’t get this. How is this treating lying like a disease? I don’t >know any diseases that are treated by writing things down… >This looks more to me like trying to find out the reasons for the lying, and >helping the child see what happens, right? I don’t get the "disease" >comparison at all.

In the presentation of the idea, this was described as similar in some ways to bedwetting, failure to toilet train, or gambling (all are sometimes discussed in these terms)..  Something that the parent and child did not directly cause, and more of the nature of an outside influence to the relationships involved.  The word disease was part of the early discussion and therefore I included it as a likely keyword in isolating the source material.   I am also confused how words like this are considered appropriate, and this is not an exception.  The main reason for asking about where the idea developed is to help understand the intent and effective application of the theory. >Isn’t the reasoning that it would be helpful both to know why the child is >lying and for the child to see possible results of lying?

I agree, from a first look, it seems to be aimed at understanding the effects both good and bad of lying even if you never get to a cause. > In our case the child has offered explanations that range from "I >thought you would be mad" to "It makes me feel like my real Mom". >It sounds to me like both of these could easily be true.

Yes, and in many cases, we cannot be sure which of the several offered explanations is closest to "true", even though they are contradictory. So far, the child’s skill at lying is not high enough to create the most believable explanation first and stick to it. >My concern, based in limited experience with teen and adult habitual >liers is that since they are good enough at it to get away with it >most of the time, the wrong conclusion can be reached.  This would >equip the child to become an excellent lier. >Well, I think that no matter what strategy you decide to use, this would be >a problem. An older child or teenager from a difficult background (as most >older adopted children are) has probably learned to lie very well in order >to survive and cope with the stresses of his or her life. So you are >inevitably going to miss lots of the lies.

I agree, and an improperly applied piece of psychotherapy can do more damage than good in such a situation.   I know one adult (between 30 and 50)  who lies so well that to do half of what he believes (convinces himself) to be true he would have to be about 90 years old.  Any one of his stories is so good people take him into their homes and provide most of what he needs.  With this counter-example, I want to avoid duplicating his skill level. Thank you for your reply  Teresa

Response:

: Premise: : In the context of an older child adoption, lying should be handled : like a disease, rather than a behavioral problem or a reaction to some : parent stimulus.    I’m more curious as to what you think "lying" is? Each of us has our own truths. These truths are never the same from family to family.  The only way that we can function together is to come to an understanding about which "truth" to tell who. Family members usually require bigger doses of someone’s version of truth. Yet if you go too far, you’ll end up hurting your relative’s feelings if you don’t also learn to keep your big mouth shut.  When you’re dealing with a child who grew up learning another adult’s set of values and interaction, there will always be a gap between your standards and those of the other parent/s.  Belive me, you don’t just want the child to be "more truthful". What you want is for them to adopt your household’s habits of interaction. For instance- you don’t especially wish to hear about your spouse’s pornography collection that the child may have discovered.  You do want the child to be dependable and to learn to fit in to your household as gracefully as possible. : Treatment: : Get the child to write down lies told, what they were feeling at the : time, and what the consequences were. That’s impossible. One could say that every time we fail to spill our guts, we’re "telling a lie". It’s the process of growing up, maturing, that over time, we learn what to say. We need to learn judgement, and this doesn’t happen all at one time. Sometimes, the thing left unsaid, or the white lie, will make the difference between a smoothly running house, and pure havoc.  This is not to say that the occasional "whopper" should be ignored. Call the child on it, get to the root of the matter, and if needed, discuss it. The idea of leadership is to provide the guidance for the youth to make a better decision next time.   Of course you have to catch the : lie, call them on it, and insist they write this down the first few : times.  When no lies are detected for about 6 months, then the cure is : probably complete. : —- : This interesting premise was given to us by someone recently, and I : would like to ask if anyone here has an idea of the "source" works : that might give an insight of the framework from which it comes.  For : instance I have found the following sources: : —  "Positive Discipline" comes from books of that title by Dr. Jane : Nelson (1986). : —  Areas of Acceptance and Nonacceptance seem to come from Dr. Thomas : Gordon’s books on Parent Effectiveness Training (1970).  This was : still recommended material in Foster/Adopt Parenting classes in the : mid-1990’s. : — The value of fairy tales and nursery rhymes (un-sweetened) comes at : least partly from Dr. Bruno Bettelheim’s The Uses of Enchantment : (1989).  He also wrote about people raised in the Israeli Kabutz in : 1969. : — Toughlove is a support network formed by Phyllis and David York. : Started in the 1970’s. : — Dr. Benjamin  Spock’s book on Child Care (1957). : For me this seems to have some interesting possibilities, but I am : having to put guesses into the "reasoning" why it should work.  That : is always risky, and may lead to not implementing the right side : supports to make the treatment effective. : The premise seems to be that lyinig in older child adoptions is not : uncommon or directly something learned from the current parents.  It : could  possibly not be directly from the original parents or foster : homes either.  The perspectives of P.E.T., or Positive Discipline may : not apply because you don’t have any chance to "remember" doing : something which caused the reaction and whatever the child says may be : a lie to divert away from a painful or unconcious memory. :  In our case the child has offered explanations that range from "I : thought you would be mad" to "It makes me feel like my real Mom". : The goal is to help the child conclude that lying is not an effective : strategy. : My concern, based in limited experience with teen and adult habitual : liers is that since they are good enough at it to get away with it : most of the time, the wrong conclusion can be reached.  This would : equip the child to become an excellent lier.

Response:

>Premise: >In the context of an older child adoption, lying should be handled >like a disease, rather than a behavioral problem or a reaction to some >parent stimulus. >Treatment: >Get the child to write down lies told, what they were feeling at the >time, and what the consequences were.  Of course you have to catch the >lie, call them on it, and insist they write this down the first few >times.  When no lies are detected for about 6 months, then the cure is >probably complete.

Okay, I don’t get this. How is this treating lying like a disease? I don’t know any diseases that are treated by writing things down… This looks more to me like trying to find out the reasons for the lying, and helping the child see what happens, right? I don’t get the "disease" comparison at all. (snipped stuff on sources) >For me this seems to have some interesting possibilities, but I am >having to put guesses into the "reasoning" why it should work.  That >is always risky, and may lead to not implementing the right side >supports to make the treatment effective.

Isn’t the reasoning that it would be helpful both to know why the child is lying and for the child to see possible results of lying? >The premise seems to be that lyinig in older child adoptions is not >uncommon or directly something learned from the current parents.  It >could  possibly not be directly from the original parents or foster >homes either.  The perspectives of P.E.T., or Positive Discipline may >not apply because you don’t have any chance to "remember" doing >something which caused the reaction and whatever the child says may be >a lie to divert away from a painful or unconcious memory.

This makes some sense to me. I can see that older children who have been adopted may have all kinds of reasons for lying. They may have seen their birth parents tell lots of lies, they may have learned to lie to escape severe punishments, they may have learned to lie to themselves to erase painful memories. > In our case the child has offered explanations that range from "I >thought you would be mad" to "It makes me feel like my real Mom".

It sounds to me like both of these could easily be true. >The goal is to help the child conclude that lying is not an effective >strategy. >My concern, based in limited experience with teen and adult habitual >liers is that since they are good enough at it to get away with it >most of the time, the wrong conclusion can be reached.  This would >equip the child to become an excellent lier.

Well, I think that no matter what strategy you decide to use, this would be a problem. An older child or teenager from a difficult background (as most older adopted children are) has probably learned to lie very well in order to survive and cope with the stresses of his or her life. So you are inevitably going to miss lots of the lies. Teresa

Response:

Premise: In the context of an older child adoption, lying should be handled like a disease, rather than a behavioral problem or a reaction to some parent stimulus.   Treatment: Get the child to write down lies told, what they were feeling at the time, and what the consequences were.  Of course you have to catch the lie, call them on it, and insist they write this down the first few times.  When no lies are detected for about 6 months, then the cure is probably complete. —- This interesting premise was given to us by someone recently, and I would like to ask if anyone here has an idea of the "source" works that might give an insight of the framework from which it comes.  For instance I have found the following sources: —  "Positive Discipline" comes from books of that title by Dr. Jane Nelson (1986). —  Areas of Acceptance and Nonacceptance seem to come from Dr. Thomas Gordon’s books on Parent Effectiveness Training (1970).  This was still recommended material in Foster/Adopt Parenting classes in the mid-1990’s. — The value of fairy tales and nursery rhymes (un-sweetened) comes at least partly from Dr. Bruno Bettelheim’s The Uses of Enchantment (1989).  He also wrote about people raised in the Israeli Kabutz in 1969. — Toughlove is a support network formed by Phyllis and David York. Started in the 1970’s. — Dr. Benjamin  Spock’s book on Child Care (1957). For me this seems to have some interesting possibilities, but I am having to put guesses into the "reasoning" why it should work.  That is always risky, and may lead to not implementing the right side supports to make the treatment effective. The premise seems to be that lyinig in older child adoptions is not uncommon or directly something learned from the current parents.  It could  possibly not be directly from the original parents or foster homes either.  The perspectives of P.E.T., or Positive Discipline may not apply because you don’t have any chance to "remember" doing something which caused the reaction and whatever the child says may be a lie to divert away from a painful or unconcious memory.  In our case the child has offered explanations that range from "I thought you would be mad" to "It makes me feel like my real Mom". The goal is to help the child conclude that lying is not an effective strategy. My concern, based in limited experience with teen and adult habitual liers is that since they are good enough at it to get away with it most of the time, the wrong conclusion can be reached.  This would equip the child to become an excellent lier.

Response: