Pure Parents

Question:

> My ex has presented our child with an ultimatum.  Either our child goes to live > with him, or he will no longer speak to, visit with, call, etc. our child.  And > our child will need to make a decision by some random deadline in September. > To me, this is such bullshit to put on a 12 year old child. > Is it me, or am I dealing with a serious mental illness here?  BTW, his father > is a born again (for the last few years) and has also told our child that he > will definately go to hell for not being perfectly respectful to his father. > Any of you have any suggestions?

        What does your son think about all of this?  What were the details of your child custody and visitation priveleges?  It sounds like the man is looking for definite control and on his terms alone. I would suspect that the ultimatum would merely be one of many to follow. —

Response:

BTW, his >father >> is a born again (for the last few years) and has also told our child that >he >> will definately go to hell for not being perfectly respectful to his >father. >> Any of you have any suggestions?

If he were a true born again Christian, he would know that you don’t go to hell for being disrespectful.  If that were the case we’d all go to hell. As for your situation, I can’t imagine a father (or mother) doing this to a child.  The advice about getting a counselor involved was a good idea. Dawn

Response:

    What a nasty situation!  This sounds like one of those circumstances that don’t offer the option of a "good" solution, just the lesser of a selection of evils.  It’s unfortunate that your former spouse has chosen to put you all in such a bind.  My opinion is that your child would be better off without his father in his life, if the man insists on being such a negative presence.  From what I have observed and experienced in life, the lack of a father figure is far less likely to damage your child than the mental and emotional abuse you are describing. Hope this helps. Jen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My ex has presented our child with an ultimatum.  Either our child goes to live >with him, or he will no longer speak to, visit with, call, etc. our child. And >our child will need to make a decision by some random deadline in September. >To me, this is such bullshit to put on a 12 year old child.  Our child had >lived with me for his entire life.  His father has been in his life or not, >depending on his mood. Our child feels anger and frustration over his >relationship with his father and particularly this latest ultimatum. >A bit of recent background: His father had not been involved in my child’s life > for about two years, stating that my child has committed numerous offenses and >would have to apologize for each of these offenses (offenses such as: not >bringing father a drinking straw with the soda, not expressing an opinion that >his father approves of, watching Sabrina the Teenage Witch,  etc.) before >father  will be involved or even speak to him again. >Is it me, or am I dealing with a serious mental illness here?  BTW, his father >is a born again (for the last few years) and has also told our child that he >will definately go to hell for not being perfectly respectful to his father. >Any of you have any suggestions? >Thanks. >this is cross posted from support.divorce

Response:

 This sounds like emotional abuse to me on yur ex’s part. If it were me , I would not stand for it.  i also would not let my son go live with this man. He sounds like hes in serious need of some counseling and some parenting classes.    If your son goes to live with him, the effect on him could be devastating.                  Becky

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My ex has presented our child with an ultimatum.  Either our child goes to >live > with him, or he will no longer speak to, visit with, call, etc. our child. >And > our child will need to make a decision by some random deadline in >September. > To me, this is such bullshit to put on a 12 year old child. > Is it me, or am I dealing with a serious mental illness here?  BTW, his >father > is a born again (for the last few years) and has also told our child that >he > will definately go to hell for not being perfectly respectful to his >father. > Any of you have any suggestions?

I also hear major control issues.  I am not sure if there aren’t some severe psych problems.  I would try and bring a counselor into to picture ASAP to get a professional’s take on all this and to provide some support for your son.  No parent should EVER make an ultimatium.  Kids have enough pressure to deal with.   Try and get some help…whether or not your ex wants to participate.  Using reason with him does not sound like an option.  Help your son in every way that you can. Regards, Debra

Response:

: > : >     Elaine, I think perhaps it is unfair to demand that the original poster : > take responsibility for her ex-husband’s behaviour. : I can’t believe I’m coming to such defense of one of Elaine’s positions, : but  Mike- ?  You and I never disagree on issues. I do believe that was what bothered you, but that’s not my problem.

Response:

>A born again what?  Not a born again Christian, because a Christian >would never present such an inhumane ultimatum.  Anyway, there’s not >much you can do, and I have no suggestion.  Dad is an asshole – how do >you deal with that?  This is a painful situation that your son will >simply have to accept and deal with.  Obviously, he should not go live >with someone as wierd as this.

I know a born-again Christian who is not a very nice person.  Same as any "religion" – some of the people are nice and some aren’t.  People find ways of justifying their behaviour and maybe this man sees it as best for the child for some reason.  I’m not defending him though; the ultimatum sounds awful and I can’t imagine that it could be good for the child to be with someone who would do this.

Response:

>     Elaine, I think perhaps it is unfair to demand that the original poster > take responsibility for her ex-husband’s behaviour.

I can’t believe I’m coming to such defense of one of Elaine’s positions, but you make a lot of wrong statements here, starting with this one. Who said anything about taking responsibility for another’s behavior? It is the mother’s obligation to work with what she has, not try to control the man, which as you point out can’t be done. >     It is true that having a child together created a bond between these two > people that is distinct from the bond of marriage.  One can be removed > without affecting the other.

Bunk.  When one is removed, the other is greatly affected.  That is the point in this situation – the two adults created a tragedy for the child, and are still squabbling over thier personal differences (that is basically what dad is doing) at the expense of their son.  Insult added to injury, in my opinion. >  It is not true, however, that this co-parent > bond is unassailable.  If this father truly is treating his son in the > manner described, he’s not much of a father.

That is true, but unless he’s an abuser, the co-parent bond *is* unassailable.  What can she do to make the man *not* his son’s dad? >  If he follows through on his > threats and drops all contact, he’s pretty much removed himself as a > "problem".

Even if he does that, I assure you that the son will view this as a problem for as long as dad is alive, and maybe longer. >     Also, I must say that I think the comment about "getting the mates we > deserve" was rather cruel.  Are you suggesting that people who are abused by > their spouses somehow deserve this treatment?

This is a point that is very controversial (and I know I’m just going to add fuel to the fire), but I think that what Elaine was trying to point out is that we all choose who we want to be with, for better or for worse.  The abused need to take a certain amount of personal responsibility for putting themselves in a situation where they can be abused (note the word "personal" – not legal or moral; that is in the abuser’s hands). It is very desirable to make excuses later, after a relationship does not work out; this way we can feel that we did not make a mistake, and were just met by ill fortune.  Sometimes that may be the case, but I’d bet more often than not that the soured relationship could have been averted altogether with wiser choices. >     Finally, you state that because the father has displayed a certain > pattern of behaviour the son will be inclined to do the same.  In all that I > have read regarding emotional and mental abuse I have never come across any > evidence that this behaviour is genetic, and where there is some form of > intervention (like ceasing contact) the cycle that can be created by > environment is often broken.  I see no reason to state unequivocally that > this boy will become a man like his father in this regard.

True enough.  If mom focuses on doing a good job, all should be well. If she can work with dad, all the better. Mike — From Seattle, WA – Seahawks, cinema, science and more at http://kohary.simplenet.com Seahawks:   http://kohary.simplenet.com/hawks.htm Cinema:     http://kohary.simplenet.com/movies.htm Science:    http://kohary.simplenet.com/science.htm

Response:

> > You apparently loved this man at one time. There MUST have been > something good and reasonable in him for you. It’s your job to find it again. > what a crock Elaine, It’s NOT her job to find anything in him!!!!she divorced the man > for God’s sake…..

It *is* her job, because that man is their son’s father.  Divorce is for the two adults – it does not affect the fact of parenthood.  Divorced parents have an *obligation* to work together and make it as easy and unaffecting to the child as possible, if there is such a thing.  And if there is no such thing, the effort should still be made, if only to make the best of it. Just because dad’s an asshole (and I agree that he is) does *not* abdicate the mother’s responsbility to try and work with him on this. Let’s not all attack Elaine just because it’s Elaine.  ;) Mike — From Seattle, WA – Seahawks, cinema, science and more at http://kohary.simplenet.com Seahawks:   http://kohary.simplenet.com/hawks.htm Cinema:     http://kohary.simplenet.com/movies.htm Science:    http://kohary.simplenet.com/science.htm

Response:

To the original poster… Maybe you could make an appointment with your son’s school guidance counselor to discuss it.  Meet with the counselor by your self first and then if the counselor and you feel comfortable, bring your son in to discuss it. My aunt utilized this resource when her first husband committed suicide during their divorce.  Her husband was also saying out of line things to the kids (9 and 12) such as "the judge is going to make me live in a tent and never see you again, etc."  She talked to the school couselor, and then the two of them told the kids together. I just posted to another message regarding custody that moving into the teen years is a precarious time for custody battles.  I t is _detrimental_ to say the least for the child to feel made to "choose sides".  Also, if the child knows he can play both ends against the middle, he will.  i.e. "If you don’t let me ….. I’ll go live with My aunt has a stepson doing this right now.  He has always been a "good Kid", but his parents have not hidden the fact that they both want him to live with them and are willing to do whatever it takes to get their way.  So, it didn’t take him long to figure out where he can get the leverage to "force" his parents to let him do whatever he wants. For the welfare of your son, it is imperative that you and his father work out an equitable united front where your son is concerned.  I will admit it certainly doesn’t look easy with what you have told us about your husband’s ultimatim.  I wish you and your son the best.

Response:

> My ex has presented our child with an ultimatum.  Either our child goes to live > with him, or he will no longer speak to, visit with, call, etc. our child.  And > our child will need to make a decision by some random deadline in September. > To me, this is such bullshit to put on a 12 year old child.  Our child had > lived with me for his entire life.  His father has been in his life or not, > depending on his mood. Our child feels anger and frustration over his > relationship with his father and particularly this latest ultimatum.

Of course, that is a perfectly terrible thing to present to a child of any age. > A bit of recent background: His father had not been involved in my child’s life >  for about two years, stating that my child has committed numerous offenses and > would have to apologize for each of these offenses (offenses such as: not > bringing father a drinking straw with the soda, not expressing an opinion that > his father approves of, watching Sabrina the Teenage Witch,  etc.) before > father  will be involved or even speak to him again. > Is it me, or am I dealing with a serious mental illness here?  BTW, his father > is a born again (for the last few years) and has also told our child that he > will definately go to hell for not being perfectly respectful to his father.

A born again what?  Not a born again Christian, because a Christian would never present such an inhumane ultimatum.  Anyway, there’s not much you can do, and I have no suggestion.  Dad is an asshole – how do you deal with that?  This is a painful situation that your son will simply have to accept and deal with.  Obviously, he should not go live with someone as wierd as this. The tragedies of divorce are most viscerally visited upon the children…. Mike — From Seattle, WA – Seahawks, cinema, science and more at http://kohary.simplenet.com Seahawks:   http://kohary.simplenet.com/hawks.htm Cinema:     http://kohary.simplenet.com/movies.htm Science:    http://kohary.simplenet.com/science.htm

Response:

What???  This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. >  You apparently loved this man at one time. There MUST have been > something good and reasonable in him for you. It’s your job to find it again.

Couldn’t have been that she was young and in love and didnt’ really see him for what he was.  Naw, that *never* happens, right?  Or perhaps he’s changed over the years. That never happens either in your world, apparently. It is certainly not her job to figure out why her ex has this problem.  He’s apparently a fool, bordering on dangerous.  I certainly wouldn’t let my son around him, whether he were the boy’s father or not. The difficulty here is how to make the son understand the nature of the father without being the bad guy.  Figuring out the father would be a useless waste of time, effort and trouble. >  Additionally, your son will soon be entering his teens. What makes you > think that the boy won’t inherit his father’s personality type? >  It will be a very valuable tool for you if you can find a way to achieve > goals with your ex. It won’t be too far down the road when you’re going > to be in a similar situation with your son.

Oh, maybe something about the boy having her genetic makeup as well, not to mention the environmental influence of being raised by her.  It’s not a good thing you’re doing by assuming the boy will be like the crazy father and scaring the mother by saying it *will* show up in the boy.You really are something else. — Denise Duggan (aka HyperMommy) Profession: Computer Programmer Homelife: Desperately trying to stay one step ahead of           Jimmy (10/93) and Joey (9/95) who are both *ALL* boy Hobby: Extraneous Brass (Captain) aboard the USS Khai Tam           Tallahassee, Florida’s chapter of STARFLEET

Response:

It’s NOT her job to do anything except  take care of her son. I to would be afraid this man would flip and harm the boy it’s one of those ( like someone already said ) things where there is no black and white are you have to decide whats best. and hope and pray youre son does’nt get hurt any more then what he already is. it’s terrible that there are people who would do this to there child. we are supposed to love them and do are level best to raise them i’ve asked myself a million times how were supposed to do that when other parents dont seem to care anymore. or are more worried about themselves then there children. counsiling is the only thing i can think of , for the boy  of course does’nt sound like theres to much hope for dad.                               I guess i kinda threw a fit there. i halfway know where you’re coming from i’ m sorry.     VERA

Response:

: > You apparently loved this man at one time. There MUST have been : > something good and reasonable in him for you. It’s your job to find it again. : > : what a crock Elaine, It’s NOT her job to find anything in him!!!!she divorced the man : for God’s sake…..  Oh. Ok, so she divorced him. Guess that ends her problems with him. What? oh, she still has problems with him?  She has a son with him. That will connect them forever. : >  Maybe you thought that your divorce would mark the end of your having to : > deal with him and his moods. Guess that you were wrong about that. : > : you have a point, but the man’s behavior is obviously on the psychotic side …no-one : deserves to put up with that, especially the boy. We have heard one side of the discussion. We have heard from the mom, but will never hear the dad’s side of the story. Is he psychotic? Who knows? We get the mates that we deserve. : > It won’t be too far down the road when you’re going : > to be in a similar situation with your son. : > : what does this mean??????  It meant that the son will soon be a teen. Learning to deal with the father would certainly be a step toward being able to deal with his son.

Response:

    Elaine, I think perhaps it is unfair to demand that the original poster take responsibility for her ex-husband’s behaviour.  In a perfect world, we would all be able to work out our differences, but as we all know this is far from a perfect place.  Stating that it is her "job" to find the good in this man suggests that she must somehow find a way to control his behaviour, and many a spouse has learned the hard way that you can’t *make* anyone behave according to your wishes.  As you continue to demonstrate, we all have our own views and will defend them, sometimes very adamantly.     It is true that having a child together created a bond between these two people that is distinct from the bond of marriage.  One can be removed without affecting the other.  It is not true, however, that this co-parent bond is unassailable.  If this father truly is treating his son in the manner described, he’s not much of a father.  If he follows through on his threats and drops all contact, he’s pretty much removed himself as a "problem".  All that is left is the residual damage, and although that is a problem it can be entirely dealt with without any input from the father.     Also, I must say that I think the comment about "getting the mates we deserve" was rather cruel.  Are you suggesting that people who are abused by their spouses somehow deserve this treatment?     Finally, you state that because the father has displayed a certain pattern of behaviour the son will be inclined to do the same.  In all that I have read regarding emotional and mental abuse I have never come across any evidence that this behaviour is genetic, and where there is some form of intervention (like ceasing contact) the cycle that can be created by environment is often broken.  I see no reason to state unequivocally that this boy will become a man like his father in this regard.     Perhaps I’m most troubled by your tendency to state things as absolutes. Don’t you ever suspect that you might possibly be wrong? Jen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: > You apparently loved this man at one time. There MUST have been >: > something good and reasonable in him for you. It’s your job to find it again. >: > >: what a crock Elaine, It’s NOT her job to find anything in him!!!!she divorced the man >: for God’s sake….. > Oh. Ok, so she divorced him. Guess that ends her problems with him. >What? oh, she still has problems with him? > She has a son with him. That will connect them forever. >: >  Maybe you thought that your divorce would mark the end of your having to >: > deal with him and his moods. Guess that you were wrong about that. >: > >: you have a point, but the man’s behavior is obviously on the psychotic side >…no-one >: deserves to put up with that, especially the boy. >We have heard one side of the discussion. We have heard from the mom, but >will never hear the dad’s side of the story. Is he psychotic? Who knows? >We get the mates that we deserve. >: > It won’t be too far down the road when you’re going >: > to be in a similar situation with your son. >: > >: what does this mean?????? > It meant that the son will soon be a teen. Learning to deal with the >father would certainly be a step toward being able to deal with his son.

Response:

> You apparently loved this man at one time. There MUST have been > something good and reasonable in him for you. It’s your job to find it again.

what a crock Elaine, It’s NOT her job to find anything in him!!!!she divorced the man for God’s sake….. >  Maybe you thought that your divorce would mark the end of your having to > deal with him and his moods. Guess that you were wrong about that.

you have a point, but the man’s behavior is obviously on the psychotic side…no-one deserves to put up with that, especially the boy. > It won’t be too far down the road when you’re going > to be in a similar situation with your son.

what does this mean?????? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : My ex has presented our child with an ultimatum.  Either our child goes to live > : with him, or he will no longer speak to, visit with, call, etc. our child.  And > : our child will need to make a decision by some random deadline in September. >  I wouldn’t allow it. I’d make some sort of a deal with the child father. > I’d work until I found the combination of positive rewards and negative > concequences that would influence the child’s father to be more > reasonable. >  What I’m saying is that I would not leave it alone until the man was > behaving in a more acceptable way. >  You apparently loved this man at one time. There MUST have been > something good and reasonable in him for you. It’s your job to find it again. >  Maybe you thought that your divorce would mark the end of your having to > deal with him and his moods. Guess that you were wrong about that. >  Additionally, your son will soon be entering his teens. What makes you > think that the boy won’t inherit his father’s personality type? >  It will be a very valuable tool for you if you can find a way to achieve > goals with your ex. It won’t be too far down the road when you’re going > to be in a similar situation with your son.

Response:

: My ex has presented our child with an ultimatum.  Either our child goes to live : with him, or he will no longer speak to, visit with, call, etc. our child.  And : our child will need to make a decision by some random deadline in September.  I wouldn’t allow it. I’d make some sort of a deal with the child father. I’d work until I found the combination of positive rewards and negative concequences that would influence the child’s father to be more reasonable.  What I’m saying is that I would not leave it alone until the man was behaving in a more acceptable way.  You apparently loved this man at one time. There MUST have been something good and reasonable in him for you. It’s your job to find it again.  Maybe you thought that your divorce would mark the end of your having to deal with him and his moods. Guess that you were wrong about that.  Additionally, your son will soon be entering his teens. What makes you think that the boy won’t inherit his father’s personality type?  It will be a very valuable tool for you if you can find a way to achieve goals with your ex. It won’t be too far down the road when you’re going to be in a similar situation with your son.

Response:

It’s so sad that parents will put their child in a situation like this.  I come from a divorce family.  It’s very hard to be a child in this sort of situation.  I know.  My parents…without realizing it I think….played me against each other.  They were always making snide comments or other things that shouldn’t have been said in front of me.  At the time, I didn’t understand.  When I think back now I can’t believe they did that.  My best advice for you is to sit down with your son and talk to him about it.  See how he feels and what he wants to do.  I would also talk to the father about this.  He shouldn’t be putting these kinds of pressures on the child for such petty things.  I would also do as another poster suggested…bring a counselor into the situation.  I might even speak to a lawyer.  If the child doesn’t want to see his father he may be old enough (in your state) that he can make that decision and not have to endure the stress.  Always tell him that you love him no matter what he decides today.  He needs your support more now than ever.  Don’t make demeaning comments about the father in front of the child either.  This will only make him feel worse.  Believe me, I know from experience.  He needs to make up his own mind about his father and do what he wants to do.  I hope everything works out well for you and your son!  :) Lisa Mom to Kelsey (2)

Response:

>  This sounds like emotional abuse to me on yur ex’s part. If it were me > , I would not stand for it. >  i also would not let my son go live with this man. He sounds like hes > in serious need of some counseling and some parenting classes. >    If your son goes to live with him, the effect on him could be > devastating. >                  Becky

I would be afraid to let my son VISIT this man, much less live with him.  He sounds like the kind of nut who decides to burn his kid alive because ‘if I can’t have him, no one can’  She needs professional help to protect this child from this apparently unbalanced creep.

Response:

I know it’s hard but I think it’s time that your son grows up and sees what his father is.  I know that’s a load of crap to put on a 12 year old, but he can either do it now or when he gets older. But it can’t be you that says it.  You might ask your kid what he would think of one of his friends if the friend pulled this kind of behavior.  Perhaps then he’ll see that the father is not someone he wants to hang around with. Best of luck to you! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My ex has presented our child with an ultimatum.  Either our child goes to live > with him, or he will no longer speak to, visit with, call, etc. our child.  And > our child will need to make a decision by some random deadline in September. > To me, this is such bullshit to put on a 12 year old child.  Our child had > lived with me for his entire life.  His father has been in his life or not, > depending on his mood. Our child feels anger and frustration over his > relationship with his father and particularly this latest ultimatum. > A bit of recent background: His father had not been involved in my child’s life >  for about two years, stating that my child has committed numerous offenses and > would have to apologize for each of these offenses (offenses such as: not > bringing father a drinking straw with the soda, not expressing an opinion that > his father approves of, watching Sabrina the Teenage Witch,  etc.) before > father  will be involved or even speak to him again. > Is it me, or am I dealing with a serious mental illness here?  BTW, his father > is a born again (for the last few years) and has also told our child that he > will definately go to hell for not being perfectly respectful to his father. > Any of you have any suggestions? > Thanks. > this is cross posted from support.divorce

– Denise Duggan (aka HyperMommy) Profession: Computer Programmer Homelife: Desperately trying to stay one step ahead of           Jimmy (10/93) and Joey (9/95) who are both *ALL* boy Hobby: Extraneous Brass (Captain) aboard the USS Khai Tam           Tallahassee, Florida’s chapter of STARFLEET

Response:

Got to love these "all or nothing" ultimatums! <s>.  What a great time to teach your son about terrorism tactics, passive aggressiveness and emotional blackmail. Okay – what I would do would be to find out whether your son is considering this as an option.  If he doesn’t like the terms and conditions then his father has already given him the answer.  Put it back onto the father: Where is the unconditional love? Does your son love his father, or does your son love the idea of having a dad?  Talk to your son.  Your son can be encouraged to keep in contact with his father even if his father does disown him.  Then at least your son knows that *he* tried (and the father cannot turn around in years to come and say that it was all your son’s fault). Also, if possible, I would get in contact with members of your ex’s family (his mum/dad/brother/sister) and let them know what has happened and seek their support if possible.  The quandry here appears to be that your son wants contact with his father but the conditions are way too much.  Perhaps encouraging contact thru other family members may bridge the gap and help the dad to see how unreasonable he’s being. If your son is seriously worried about going to hell then get him to talk to a local priest or a friend who is into religion, but sound them out first.  (I just love that going to hell threat – I can tell you that when I get there, and all my friends are sure to join me, the place will be rockin’! <g>) I hope this helps Stacey Please remove boots. if emailing reply   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My ex has presented our child with an ultimatum.  Either our child goes to live > with him, or he will no longer speak to, visit with, call, etc. our child.  And > our child will need to make a decision by some random deadline in September. > To me, this is such bullshit to put on a 12 year old child.  Our child had > lived with me for his entire life.  His father has been in his life or not, > depending on his mood. Our child feels anger and frustration over his > relationship with his father and particularly this latest ultimatum. > A bit of recent background: His father had not been involved in my child’s life >  for about two years, stating that my child has committed numerous offenses and > would have to apologize for each of these offenses (offenses such as: not > bringing father a drinking straw with the soda, not expressing an opinion that > his father approves of, watching Sabrina the Teenage Witch,  etc.) before > father  will be involved or even speak to him again. > Is it me, or am I dealing with a serious mental illness here?  BTW, his father > is a born again (for the last few years) and has also told our child that he > will definately go to hell for not being perfectly respectful to his father. > Any of you have any suggestions? > Thanks.

Response:

First of all I wish you the best of luck in an extremely difficult situation.  I feel (IMO of course) that your son’s father is being very unfair.  A 12 year old should be worried about having fun, and learning; not that his father feels the need to lay down ultimatums.  Talk to your son and try to get all of his thoughts and feelings on the issue.  I don’t know how effective it would be to to talk to your ex, but maybe you could try that too.  Parenting is about love, guidance and acceptance, not molding the wonderful being you have created into another version of yourself. As an aside to this, I heard a story from a friend of mine one time.  A boy’s parents were Jehovah’s Witnesses (no offense meant to those of that religion) and I guess the JW’s believe that only a set number of people are going to heaven (please correct me if I am wrong as I know very little of the religion.)  Well these parents told the boy they knew they were going and that he was not.  The boy fell in with the wrong crowd due to his parents’ teachings and started doing drugs.  Someone gave this poor kid 10 hits of LSD at once.  Now the kid is in an institution thinking he is god.  I guess if you hand down threats of eternal punishment as a means to scare your child you should be able to live with the results. Your son is obviously important to you.  Please do what is best for him. Maureen

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IMHO, I think you should tell the father that if he doesn’t straighten up his act and appreciate the father-child bond (by some random date in Sept.), that you and the child will no longer have any contact with him. — Marie B. Proud mommy to Jessica, born May 12 Military brat 22 years, military spouse 4 years – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My ex has presented our child with an ultimatum.  Either our child goes to live > with him, or he will no longer speak to, visit with, call, etc. our child.  And > our child will need to make a decision by some random deadline in September. > To me, this is such bullshit to put on a 12 year old child.  Our child had > lived with me for his entire life.  His father has been in his life or not, > depending on his mood. Our child feels anger and frustration over his > relationship with his father and particularly this latest ultimatum. > A bit of recent background: His father had not been involved in my child’s life >  for about two years, stating that my child has committed numerous offenses and > would have to apologize for each of these offenses (offenses such as: not > bringing father a drinking straw with the soda, not expressing an opinion that > his father approves of, watching Sabrina the Teenage Witch,  etc.) before > father  will be involved or even speak to him again. > Is it me, or am I dealing with a serious mental illness here?  BTW, his father > is a born again (for the last few years) and has also told our child that he > will definately go to hell for not being perfectly respectful to his father.   > Any of you have any suggestions? > Thanks. > this is cross posted from support.divorce

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My ex has presented our child with an ultimatum.  Either our child goes to live with him, or he will no longer speak to, visit with, call, etc. our child.  And our child will need to make a decision by some random deadline in September. To me, this is such bullshit to put on a 12 year old child.  Our child had lived with me for his entire life.  His father has been in his life or not, depending on his mood. Our child feels anger and frustration over his relationship with his father and particularly this latest ultimatum. A bit of recent background: His father had not been involved in my child’s life  for about two years, stating that my child has committed numerous offenses and would have to apologize for each of these offenses (offenses such as: not bringing father a drinking straw with the soda, not expressing an opinion that his father approves of, watching Sabrina the Teenage Witch,  etc.) before father  will be involved or even speak to him again. Is it me, or am I dealing with a serious mental illness here?  BTW, his father is a born again (for the last few years) and has also told our child that he will definately go to hell for not being perfectly respectful to his father.   Any of you have any suggestions? Thanks. this is cross posted from support.divorce

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Question:

Interesting post! Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I recently came across and interesting handout that I picked up at one of my > parenting classes regarding discipline and punishment.  I thought some of > the subscribers to this NG would find it interesting, so, here is the info. > FYI: > DISCIPLINE is used to teach and guide. > PUNISHMENT is used for the purpose of controlling and retribution. Young > children do not commit crimes.  Their mistakes call for a corrective > disciplinary response. > A study on the moral development of children found that children who feared > punishment tended to have less guild, were less willing to accept > responsibility, were less resistant to temptation and had fewer internal > controls than children who were not punished. > PUNISHMENT interferes with the development of internal controls by teaching > children that it is someone else’s responsibility to control them and decide > what behavior is "bad" and what the consequences will be.  Children may then > conclude that it is OK to misbehave if they can avoid getting caught or if > they are willing to accept the consequences. > DISCIPLINE teaches children that misbehavior is unacceptable because it > violates the social order, thus promoting the development of internal > controls. > A 1985 study shows a correlation between corporal punishment and stealing, > truancy, aggression, hostility, lying, depression and LOW SELF-ESTEEM. > PUNISHMENT causes children to focus their attention and anger toward and > "unfair" adult rather than on learning to be responsible for their own > actions. > Violence perpetuates violence.  In a recent landmark study, 41% of parents > believed that a child should be spanked for hitting. > PUNISHMENT validates fear, pain, intimidation and violence as acceptable > methods of resolving conflict. > Corporal punishment denies children equal protection under the law – the > rules of our society say you should hit children but may not hit another > adult.  Sweden and five other countries have outlawed spanking children. > Physical punishment can escalate into battering and can result in permanent > physical, mental, spiritual or emotional harem.  It also confuses the issue > of love and violence, teaching that  violence can be an expression of love. > PUNISHMENT creates a final solution with the adult acting a judge, jury and > executioner. > DISCIPLINE creates dialogue and communication with the adult acting as > teacher. > I picked this handout up at a Redirecting Children’s Behavior class (RCB). > The instructors of RCB classes are accredited by the International Network > for Children And Families (INCAF).  For more info. on this type of parenting > class check our this address: > www.positiveparenting.com   This info. is strictly FYI – I am not affiliated > with INCAF, I just thought is was a great class!

– From Seattle, WA – Seahawks, cinema, science and more at http://kohary.simplenet.com Seahawks:   http://kohary.simplenet.com/hawks.htm Cinema:     http://kohary.simplenet.com/movies.htm Science:    http://kohary.simplenet.com/science.htm

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I recently came across and interesting handout that I picked up at one of my parenting classes regarding discipline and punishment.  I thought some of the subscribers to this NG would find it interesting, so, here is the info. FYI: DISCIPLINE is used to teach and guide. PUNISHMENT is used for the purpose of controlling and retribution. Young children do not commit crimes.  Their mistakes call for a corrective disciplinary response. A study on the moral development of children found that children who feared punishment tended to have less guild, were less willing to accept responsibility, were less resistant to temptation and had fewer internal controls than children who were not punished. PUNISHMENT interferes with the development of internal controls by teaching children that it is someone else’s responsibility to control them and decide what behavior is "bad" and what the consequences will be.  Children may then conclude that it is OK to misbehave if they can avoid getting caught or if they are willing to accept the consequences. DISCIPLINE teaches children that misbehavior is unacceptable because it violates the social order, thus promoting the development of internal controls. A 1985 study shows a correlation between corporal punishment and stealing, truancy, aggression, hostility, lying, depression and LOW SELF-ESTEEM. PUNISHMENT causes children to focus their attention and anger toward and "unfair" adult rather than on learning to be responsible for their own actions. Violence perpetuates violence.  In a recent landmark study, 41% of parents believed that a child should be spanked for hitting. PUNISHMENT validates fear, pain, intimidation and violence as acceptable methods of resolving conflict. Corporal punishment denies children equal protection under the law – the rules of our society say you should hit children but may not hit another adult.  Sweden and five other countries have outlawed spanking children. Physical punishment can escalate into battering and can result in permanent physical, mental, spiritual or emotional harem.  It also confuses the issue of love and violence, teaching that  violence can be an expression of love. PUNISHMENT creates a final solution with the adult acting a judge, jury and executioner. DISCIPLINE creates dialogue and communication with the adult acting as teacher. I picked this handout up at a Redirecting Children’s Behavior class (RCB). The instructors of RCB classes are accredited by the International Network for Children And Families (INCAF).  For more info. on this type of parenting class check our this address: www.positiveparenting.com   This info. is strictly FYI – I am not affiliated with INCAF, I just thought is was a great class!

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Question:

> child and tends to cry for seemingly meaningless reasons.  The violence when > angry seems to be an inherited trait as his father is the same way.

Not inherited, learned.  His father is the same way; that’s all you need to know.  He learned it from his father.  That’s where your job must begin. > I am concerned that this will become even worse as he grows older as it seems > to be worse now than even a year ago.

And will continue to get worse, as long as his father demonstrates this as being appropriate behavior.  His father must stop behaving this way, and then you can work on the kid. Mike — From Seattle, WA – Seahawks, cinema, science and more at http://kohary.simplenet.com Seahawks:   http://kohary.simplenet.com/hawks.htm Cinema:     http://kohary.simplenet.com/movies.htm Science:    http://kohary.simplenet.com/science.htm

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>> child and tends to cry for seemingly meaningless reasons.  The violence when > angry seems to be an inherited trait as his father is the same way. >Not inherited, learned.  His father is the same way; that’s all you need >to know.  He learned it from his father.  That’s where your job must >begin.

Guess I’ve been quiet long enough. There ARE some neurological conditions which can cause rage, seemingly out of nowhere. Most that can affect children do seem to have a genetic component. Among these would be bipolar disorder, the combination  of Tourette Syndrome/Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder/ADHD, and temporal lobe epilepsy. If there is the possibly of an inherited neurobiological condition, then you may want to consult a pediatric neurologicst or a child psychiatrist. There are some medications that, along with behavior modification techniques and therapy, can make a big difference. I have no idea if the child in this thread falls into one of these categories, or a similar one. Obviously for the vast majority of children, the issue is a behavioral one. But there is a small minority for whom it can also be neurobiological. I know. I have an adopted son diagnosed with the triad of TS/OCD/ADHD, plus BP. I too wasn’t aware that there could be neurological issues that could cause this, but I’ve learned a lot since facing the issue and my own son’s diagnosis. This is definitely not common, but it is a possibility. And differential diagnoses are extremely hard for doctors to make at an age as young as 4. Vicki H.

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> (I would recommend reading or attending parenting classes based on the work > of Rudolf Dreikurs.

Thanks, I’ll look into it. > HOWEVER, the child will need to be allowed to exercise power in appropriate > ways. > Does he get to make choices during the rest of life? i.e. Does he get to > pick out the clothes he wears for a day? Do you ask him to pick the > vegetable for dinner? (Note: give choices, with limits/boundaries: try: > "Would you prefer peas or carrots?" If the answer is "Donuts", remind that > "Donuts are not one of your choices.

I ask him if he wants Cheerios or Corn Flakes for breakfast.  He says Cheerios and when I set the bowl on the table he throws a fit because he wants Corn Flakes.  I give him choices as often as is reasonable (his brother gets to pick the vegetable part of the time) but he doesn’t always stick to them.  Three days in a row he requested to wear a particular shirt that was in the dirty clothes.  On the fourth day it was clean and I set it out for him to wear.  When he saw it he refused to put it on because it was not what he wanted to wear.

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It’s great to see that you know about offering choices! (So many parents find it a difficult concept to even come up with.) Well, again, I’m not familiar with all the events surrounding your relationship with your child, and I’m not offering ‘cook book’ advice (i.e. for this problem, use this solution). I’m trying to pass along my experience with Dreikursian child raising, and how it helps me deal with similar situations. Remembering that we are hoping to raise future adults (they aren’t their yet, that’s why the make some poor choices of behavior along the way) who act appropriately. If at the age of 21, your son went to a restaurant, ordered scrambled eggs, then when they arrived demanded over-easy instead, the behavior would be ridiculous. So in a ’scaled-down’ way, this situation is actually quite analogous, and needs to be modified. This really looks like a power struggle. (Ask yourself, do you feel angry as your response to his behavior. If you do, he’d getting what he wants, and you ARE in a power struggle.) The way out of a power struggle is to let go of the opposite end of the tug-of-war rope. So, let’s look at breakfast. You’ve given him a reasonable set of options (2 cereals to pick from). This will give him an opportunity to excise power in a positive way. A great step 1! However, he seems to want to give you an even bigger indicator that HE can be the one who makes the other person jump through all the hoops. So, here’s my suggestion: In the evening, or some other peaceful time, point out, in a very matter-of-fact way (with "I" rather than "You" messages), that breakfast did not go well (rather than try to modify ALL the misbehaviors at once, pick one to focus on. You’ll probably find that the others will then go away on their own, because they are rooted in the same cause(s)). "I really had trouble with breakfast this morning. I offered what I felt was a reasonable set of choices. I think though, that my actions in the past have misled you. I may have you believing that I am some sort of short-order cook. I am not. I think it is very reasonable for me to offer 2 things for breakfast, and let you pick the one you want. However, here is where I’m going to change. The first thing you pick, is what you will get. If you say one thing, then change your mind, I will not get you the other. You can either eat what you picked, or choose to eat nothing. I’m willing to keep your breakfast out until there’s 10 minutes before school time. Then I’ll put it away, assuming you aren’t interested in eating it." The point you are trying to make, is that "I’m not your personal servant. I love you, and care about you, but I’m not at your beck and call." So, the next day, you are sure to be tested. When the time passes, pick up the dishes, and put them away. There will be much screaming and yelling. BUT, you will have followed through on what you said you would do. Also, AVOID THE TEMPTATION to say, "If YOU had eaten, then YOU wouldn’t be hungry." Let the message sink in naturally. (Also, please don’t worry about hunger. In America there are very few kids who will literally die from missing a single meal.) Or if the idea of missing a meal horrifies you, pick the clothing as your ‘battlefield’. Pick out the next day’s clothes out the night before with him. If the next morning there is a big ‘todo’ about the outfit, use the same matter of fact approach. Either he goes to preschool wearing just his undies (bringing his clothes in a bag to put on when he gets there), or he misses this day altogether. When he bemoans the fact that he really wants to go, let him know he’ll get another chance to show he can ‘the next time’ (tomorrow, Wednesday, whenever it makes sense). For either scenario, your position is that you aren’t going to argue over this (there is no "But you picked Cheerios", or "But you said you wanted to wear this last night". You will pull away from the power struggle he’s trying to pull you into. You are offering other chances for him to exercise power at reasonable times. — Thanks for your time, Glen q3, q4 ==> q2

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>My four-year-old son gets violent when angry.  He also gets angry easily.  An >Example: I would not allow him to eat Skittles for breakfast.  He screamed, >hit me, kicked the dashboard of the car and kept his arms crossed all the way >to preschool, periodically hitting me or kicking the car.

It’s really hard to give advice in this kind of situation because it’s impossible to know all the facts.  When you say his father is the same way, do you mean his father is that way but he has  learned to control his behavior or do you mean that the child is exposed to  violent anger on a regular basis from his father?  The answer to that question can completely change  a person’s advice. My son, almost 4 yrs old, used to have what I considered a violent temper and, at times, he still does.  Maybe it’s all relative, because many other’s have considered my son’s temper a very normal phase of growing up.  The scene that you described in the car is a scene that sounds familiar to how my son was. You did not give in to his desires, nor did we.  What we also did, though, was pull over to the side of the road and just wait until the fit ended.  It never took too long.   It was unacceptable behavior as I’m sure it is to you too.   If the fit happened at home, I would escort him to his room where he was entitled to have a fit, as long as there isn’t any damage done to property.   That’s what we did, for the most part,  DURING a fit.  What we did to PREVENT the fits is what I consider to be the most important and also the harder to put down in words because it’s so individualized.  We spent alot of time learning the causes of my son’s behavior.  My son is very strong willed, which I happen to love about him, but it also takes alot of work to deal with!  He also has a severe speech delay which is very frustrating for him.  We try very hard to give him as much choice and freedom as possible so that when we DO need to have a hard fast rule that he MUST follow without any hassle,  he will have an easier time of it.   We are also  very careful to say what we mean and mean what we say, as the saying goes.   I’ve also learned that he imitates behavior, as do all children, and I’ve noticed that he really imitates any anger he sees.  If I’m angry at someone, he is angry at that person.  I don’t know about anyone else, but my children sure can hold up the mirrors that reflect the ugliest images of myself!   I’ve learned alot about myself and I’ve been forced to deal with areas of myself that I didn’t even know existed until I had children.  But deal with them I must if I want to deal with my children with success. I am happy to say that my son’s temper is no longer a problem.  I’m not saying he never gets angry, just that it isn’t a problem anymore.   Most of the time.   He is learning how to deal with his anger in more acceptable ways.  He is in preschool and the teachers say that when he is really angry, it’s very obvious but all he does is go off by himself for a bit.  Then, when the anger is gone, he rejoins the group and acts perfectly fine.   I think one of the things I love most about my son is that one is never in doubt as to what he’s feeling.  No guessing games.  I wouldn’t want to do anything to discourage that.   Good luck to you in dealing with your 4 yr old.  I can certainly relate to how trying it can be at times!   Linda C.

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Well if you don’t change what you’re doing, it certainly can’t get better. (I would recommend reading or attending parenting classes based on the work of Rudolf Dreikurs. Children misbehave because they are actually trying to fit-in with the family (it’s just that they lack the experience of adults, and therefore act inappropriately). I am purely taking a guess here, but it sounds like your child’s motivation is power. He wants to have more control over his life. So, my suggestion is two-fold. First, power struggles are diffused by letting go of the other end of the tug-of-war rope. When you are being pulled into a "I want to", "no you can’t" situation, back away from it, by not discussing it. It’s difficult, but matter-of-factly say, "You know what I think of skittles for breakfast", and that’s all you need to say. You don’t want to be dragged through all of the ensuing ugliness. HOWEVER, the child will need to be allowed to exercise power in appropriate ways. Does he get to make choices during the rest of life? i.e. Does he get to pick out the clothes he wears for a day? Do you ask him to pick the vegetable for dinner? (Note: give choices, with limits/boundaries: try: "Would you prefer peas or carrots?" If the answer is "Donuts", remind that "Donuts are not one of your choices. Are you telling me you would like me to pick instead?".) The key point to keep in mind here is that you _encourage_ your child to make good decisions. You believe that with a little guidance, they CAN do it. Secondly, the kicking/hitting thing is W-W-WA-A-AY-Y-Y unacceptable. So you need to ‘take time for training". During a calm period (maybe during dinner, or during the afternoon), you need to discuss the trouble. Use "I" messages, rather than "You" messages to indicate the behavior is unacceptable. For example, "Yesterday did not go well for me. I did not like being hit and kicked. I realize though, that I have probably been letting you think it’s o.k. I didn’t mean to do that. So, I’m going to do things differently. If you choose to hit me while driving, I’m going to pull over and wait until you let me know you’re ready to continue." Now, here comes the hard part. Doing it. Usually we’re busy rushing everywhere, and can’t get a good opportunity to act on what we say (i.e. we’re over a barrel, because we HAVE to grocery shop today). So, if at all possible, set up an opportunity where you have an ‘out’. Leave for preschool earlier than usual, and bring a book along. If he has a big to-do, pull over to the side of the road (as you said you would), and read. He’ll get even ‘to-do-ier". You may need to offer a matter-of-fact (NOT LECTURING) reminder, "You need to let me know when you’re ready to go on". Eventually he’ll quiet down, and you’ll be able to continue. If he does it again, pull over again. This time you won’t need to remind, since you’ve done it once already, just read. Also, resist the temptation to point out that "We would have been on time, if YOU hadn’t screamed and I had to pull over". He’ll can put that cause and effect together himself. As always, this is a very simplified explanation, and shouldn’t be used as a cookbook. I REALLY suggest finding out about the Dreikursian approach, because it’s focus is on encouragement, and the relationship you have with your child, which are the root causes of behavior (good and bad), rather than solving individual situations. Thanks for your time, Glen

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My four-year-old son gets violent when angry.  He also gets angry easily.  An Example: I would not allow him to eat Skittles for breakfast.  He screamed, hit me, kicked the dashboard of the car and kept his arms crossed all the way to preschool, periodically hitting me or kicking the car.  He is an emotional child and tends to cry for seemingly meaningless reasons.  The violence when angry seems to be an inherited trait as his father is the same way. I am concerned that this will become even worse as he grows older as it seems to be worse now than even a year ago.  When he is angry I have tried to get him to put his hands on his head, count to three and blow very hard.  I thought this would both distract him and calm him.  He refuses to try. Any suggestions or references to suggestions to would be appreciated.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I have read about this concept, in a book called "On Becomming Babywise" > by >> Gary Ezzo – Excellent book, a MUST READ for all parents of newborns to >> pretoddlers. >> Melissa Forsyth >Have you been following the Ezzo thread here at all??  That book, and >its accompanying theory, should have been put to ha quick death long >ago. >   Phan–  mom to Keith (4) and Jack (4 weeks) > No I haven’t, I just joined this newsgroup, why, what’s the scoop?  I love > the book & it works for me. > Melissa

The church where Ezzo first began touting his "method" no longer supports his theories.  Some predominant parenting experts (most notably, Dr. William Sears) have petitioned the AAP to warn parents against these practices.  That certainly sends up red-flags for me. The general theory behind the Ezzo books–setting a child on a strict schedule straight away after birth–is misguided, at best, and dangerous, at worst.  It goes against human physiology.  The result may be a "convenient" child, but at what cost?  go to the full scoop on the problems with the Ezzo books (and tapes, and seminars, and…)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> I have read about this concept, in a book called "On Becomming Babywise" > by > >> Gary Ezzo – Excellent book, a MUST READ for all parents of newborns to > >> pretoddlers. > >> Melissa Forsyth > >Have you been following the Ezzo thread here at all??  That book, and > >its accompanying theory, should have been put to ha quick death long > >ago. > >   Phan–  mom to Keith (4) and Jack (4 weeks) > No I haven’t, I just joined this newsgroup, why, what’s the scoop?  I love > the book & it works for me. > Melissa > The church where Ezzo first began touting his "method" no longer > supports his theories.  Some predominant parenting experts (most > notably, Dr. William Sears) have petitioned the AAP to warn parents > against these practices.  That certainly sends up red-flags for me. The > general theory behind the Ezzo books–setting a child on a strict > schedule straight away after birth–is misguided, at best, and > dangerous, at worst.  It goes against human physiology.  The result may > be a "convenient" child, but at what cost?  go to > the full scoop on the problems with the Ezzo books (and tapes, and > seminars, and…)

Phan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The class specified that the children need to see their parents >together and if they don’t see it during the day, they will get into bed >with them at night because that is the only place that they can find them >together.  My friend tried this technique and confirmed that after three days >of scheduling time just with his wife while the children played quitely by >themselves, the twins stopped coming into their bed at night.  I thought >this was interesting.  Any comments? >Germaine >This makes such perfect sense it has to be true! We are always together and >none of our children have ever come to our bed unless they were ill. Maybe >coincidence maybe not. I shall be very interested to see what others have to >say. >Steve Williams

I have read about this concept, in a book called "On Becomming Babywise" by Gary Ezzo – Excellent book, a MUST READ for all parents of newborns to pretoddlers. Melissa Forsyth

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > This guy that I know has twins and these twins would get into bed with he and > his wife in the middle of the night right around the age of three.  This > happened for about a year when he and his wife decided to take a parenting > class to help decide wether this was normal or not.  In the parenting class, > they were told that every couple needs to take at least twenty min. each day > and designate it as "their" time.  The kids are allowed to play by themselves, > but they are specifically told that they are not to interrupt the parent’s > "time".  The class specified that the children need to see their parents > together and if they don’t see it during the day, they will get into bed > with them at night because that is the only place that they can find them > together.  My friend tried this technique and confirmed that after three days > of scheduling time just with his wife while the children played quitely by > themselves, the twins stopped coming into their bed at night.  I thought > this was interesting.  Any comments? > Germaine

That sounds like a really good idea to me. I think it’s important that children see their parents together. I know that when I was young (around 10), I always wanted strangers to know that my parents were together. This idea seems to be a good way to reinforce that in a child’s mind. I’ll have to keep it in mind for the future. Chris

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> The class specified that the children need to see their parents >>together and if they don’t see it during the day, they will get into bed >>with them at night because that is the only place that they can find them >>together.  My friend tried this technique and confirmed that after three > days >>of scheduling time just with his wife while the children played quitely by >>themselves, the twins stopped coming into their bed at night.  I thought >>this was interesting.  Any comments? >>Germaine >This makes such perfect sense it has to be true! We are always together and >none of our children have ever come to our bed unless they were ill. Maybe >coincidence maybe not. I shall be very interested to see what others have > to >say. >Steve Williams > I have read about this concept, in a book called "On Becomming Babywise" by > Gary Ezzo – Excellent book, a MUST READ for all parents of newborns to > pretoddlers. > Melissa Forsyth

Have you been following the Ezzo thread here at all??  That book, and its accompanying theory, should have been put to ha quick death long ago.    Phan–  mom to Keith (4) and Jack (4 weeks)

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>> I have read about this concept, in a book called "On Becomming Babywise" by > Gary Ezzo – Excellent book, a MUST READ for all parents of newborns to > pretoddlers. > Melissa Forsyth >Have you been following the Ezzo thread here at all??  That book, and >its accompanying theory, should have been put to ha quick death long >ago. >   Phan–  mom to Keith (4) and Jack (4 weeks)

No I haven’t, I just joined this newsgroup, why, what’s the scoop?  I love the book & it works for me. Melissa

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This guy that I know has twins and these twins would get into bed with he and his wife in the middle of the night right around the age of three.  This happened for about a year when he and his wife decided to take a parenting class to help decide wether this was normal or not.  In the parenting class, they were told that every couple needs to take at least twenty min. each day and designate it as "their" time.  The kids are allowed to play by themselves, but they are specifically told that they are not to interrupt the parent’s "time".  The class specified that the children need to see their parents together and if they don’t see it during the day, they will get into bed with them at night because that is the only place that they can find them together.  My friend tried this technique and confirmed that after three days of scheduling time just with his wife while the children played quitely by themselves, the twins stopped coming into their bed at night.  I thought this was interesting.  Any comments? Germaine

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writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This guy that I know has twins and these twins would get into bed with he and >his wife in the middle of the night right around the age of three.  This >happened for about a year when he and his wife decided to take a parenting >class to help decide wether this was normal or not.  In the parenting class, >they were told that every couple needs to take at least twenty min. each day >and designate it as "their" time.  The kids are allowed to play by >themselves, >but they are specifically told that they are not to interrupt the parent’s >"time".  The class specified that the children need to see their parents >together and if they don’t see it during the day, they will get into bed >with them at night because that is the only place that they can find them >together.  My friend tried this technique and confirmed that after three days >of scheduling time just with his wife while the children played quitely by >themselves, the twins stopped coming into their bed at night.  I thought >this was interesting.  Any comments? >Germaine

This makes such perfect sense it has to be true! We are always together and none of our children have ever come to our bed unless they were ill. Maybe coincidence maybe not. I shall be very interested to see what others have to say. Steve Williams http://members.aol.com/sjw1963

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>Once it became her decision she was pretty calm about it.

I totally agree.  When my child doesn’t want to, say, brush her teeth right now, I’ll tell her to "let me know when you’re ready."   If they’re not ready in a minute, then I say: "It’s getting late.  I’m going to set a timer.  In one minute you will have to decide if you want ME to brush your teeth or if you want to do it yourself."   If it comes down to me doing it, I do a very thorough job.   This logic can apply to things like putting on jammies.   – Ron Low Levity is the dearth of gravity.  Brevity is the height of clarity.   non-commercial e-mail always welcome

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> WOW! I guess I’m not alone in this misbehaving stage.. My daughter > will be two > in Februaryand she has the worst temper I have ever seen in a child. > She hits > me , bites me, kicks me , Throws herself on the floor when she is > angry and is > just very mean.. It’s hard trying to be both parents. I have a > husband who is > hands off type . I think it has alot to do with her father he yells > and > disagrees with the way I disapline her right in front of her .. He > has no > respect for me as a mother and I think she figures why should she .. > Besides > the book suggested what else do you think I should do ??. Divorce > isn’t > completely out of the question as far as the father ,but should I > seek > conseling for me and my daughter . If so where does any one know of > a counsler > in San Diego, California  area  ?. Well I’m completely lost so I > need all the > help I can get have another baby due this year June(98) HELP!!! me > please I’m > desprate for some help, guidence, something .. Thank you Michelle > (Camille’s > mom& soon to be mom again)

I don’t have access to your e-mail address, as your original message has expired, so I’m posting this on the ng in hopes you will get it. I do know a good child psychologist/family therapist in the San Diego area. If you e-mail me back, I will be happy to give you her name. Last I knew, she was up in the Golden Triangle area. I sincerely hope you’re able to get some help, as your new baby needs an intact family. I think the stage your daughter is going through is fairly common, but it’s clear you need some help in determining exactly how to deal with it. That’s where a good counselor can do a world of good. (And it couldn’t hurt to get your husband there to learn that you must support each other as parents.) Cheers, Julian’s mom

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > WOW! I guess I’m not alone in this misbehaving stage.. My daughter will be two > in Februaryand she has the worst temper I have ever seen in a child. She hits > me , bites me, kicks me , Throws herself on the floor when she is angry and is > just very mean.. It’s hard trying to be both parents. I have a husband who is > hands off type . I think it has alot to do with her father he yells and > disagrees with the way I disapline her right in front of her .. He has no > respect for me as a mother and I think she figures why should she .. Besides > the book suggested what else do you think I should do ??. Divorce isn’t > completely out of the question as far as the father ,but should I seek > conseling for me and my daughter . If so where does any one know of a counsler > in San Diego, California  area  ?. Well I’m completely lost so I need all the > help I can get have another baby due this year June(98) HELP!!! me please I’m > desprate for some help, guidence, something .. Thank you Michelle (Camille’s > mom& soon to be mom again)

I know you may not like to hear what I have to say, but I have a  15 year old daughter who i had many problems disciplining….. for years I was blamed for her behavior because I was a bad mother, I sometimes got help with counselling through the department of social services, also they can help recommend good counselling centers, call your medical insurance to see who is with in your plan, ask your family doctor or pediatrician….they are all resources that you can call… one thing I recommend highly is get together with your husband and either have him keep his mouth out of it when you are disciplinning your child, or if he disagrees to pull you out of ear shot of the child and do it…then come to an agreement and get it under control. I have used all of these things. and they do work for a few times…. if you have ever heard of CHADD its an organization who helps parents of children who are hyperactive, and attention deficit…they have many good parenting ideas you can look them up on the net…they do have a webpage…find them and go to their meetings Look in the library for books on ADD (attention deficit disorder) those books have lots of parenting ideas…and they really work. I just wish those things had helped me or would still help me…my daughter has been mentally ill since I can remember, and those things didnt work in her case…for very long… Ginger

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I need advice badly.  My 22 month old son does NOT listen.  It’s only > within the past month or so that he’s turned into a "monster", before > that he was very well behaved.  If I tell him not to touch something, he > purposly touches it, while watching me for my reaction.  He’s a very > intelligent child and knows how to push my buttons, even how to "sneak" > to do the things which are forbidden.  He’s extremely curious and ALWAYS > INTO EVERYTHING also wanting to do things by himself.  When I "really" > yell at him, even smack his fingers, he starts laughing as though it > were a big joke.  I’ve attempted the "time-out" strategy and keeping him > in one place for more than 10 seconds is a real challenge.  When I > physically sit him back down to continue time-out he arches his back and > starts laughing like we’re playing a game. > How can I let him know who’s boss? PLEASE HELP!!!!  Any suggestions > would be appreciated……Please post or E-mail. > Angela

 Angela, It’s been years since my kids were that age, but I had toddlers x 4 back then.  I took parenting classes: 1. It gives you a new perspective 2. You find out you aren’t alone and that your child isn’t different 3. You get a netwrok of friends who are learning along with you 4. It’s a great place to vent the frustration you feel Most of the classes (anyway the ones I have been to) have childcare and often times a program for the children.  I find myself going back toparetnting calsses whenever my children reach another one of their stages.   Good luck! Lynn

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Hi, I am the mother of a VERY curious 10 month old.  He wants to touch everything, sometimes to his detriment, as today he succeeded in pulling the lamp over on himself.  No serious injury, just a little bump on the head.  I have found the more safe "grown-up stuff" I allow him to play with and explore the more flexible he is when I put my foot down.  For example my kitchen is set up with all the bottom cabinets containing pots and pans, assorted Rubbermaid containers, and his favorite…two crates of potatoes and onions.  Granted, I have picked up more than my share of potatoes, but it is kind of fun watching him roll them across the floor. In my living room there is a CD rack that has several CD’s, cassette tapes and old video tapes, this is his second favorite pastime.  Admittedly, I have put most of the really breakable stuff up for the mean time, but if he can’t really hurt it and it can’t really hurt him, I usually let him play with "Big-people stuff".  I was raised in a very strict household, and was not allowed to touch or explore very much of anything.  I am trying not to do the same. Good Luck!! Lauren

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>that he was very well behaved.  If I tell him not to touch something, he >purposly touches it, while watching me for my reaction.  He’s a very >intelligent child and knows how to push my buttons, even how to "sneak" >to do the things which are forbidden.  He’s extremely curious and ALWAYS >INTO EVERYTHING also wanting to do things by himself.  When I "really"

Angela, hi. What does he want to touch? Why does he want to touch it? Curiosity is a good thing for a kid, but I know trying to channel it can be trying sometimes. After my kid learned to move around, it was the same scenario. Everything intrigued him. I believe that a lot of children are curious about things that are either "foreign" to them (as in they’ve never come across this thing before), "forbidden" (as in the thing is always put out of reach by an adult before they can have a close encounter with it) or "fun" (as in the thing having play value, such as a remote control or telephone which has buttons to push). Maybe you can try this… 1. Defuse the mystery Kids are very tickled by mysterious things they are not allowed to handle. So let them. I taught my kid how to operate the VCR and remote control when he was two. Since then, he uses the remote control and VCR like we do and not as toys, because he no longer sees these objects as toys. 2. Child proof whatever you can Don’t even let him see something he’s not allowed to touch. 3. Explain, distract, supervise If a thing cannot be put out of sight and reach and cannot be given to the kid who wants to handle it, you’d just have to explain. I know it can be difficult, but sometimes an explanation will temporarily quench his curiosity even if he doesn’t completely understand it, until he is old enough to handle the object physically and properly. Right after the explanation, distract him with a related activity. For instance, after explaining why he cannot play with the iron, offer to let him help you with other aspects of doing the laundry, such as sorting and folding. After that, do it, because kids are such hands-on creatures, but make sure you supervise him. Kids learn very quickly and often on their own, but they learn best with a little help. Sometimes it seems that a kid does something deliberately just to annoy us, to get a reaction. I don’t know if this will work with your son, different children react differently, but whenever it happens, I try not to give my son the reaction he is looking for. That kinda takes out all the fun of opening cupboard doors repeatedly or pulling at the curtains. But purely ignoring your kid when he does something to provoke a strong reaction from you won’t work either. A kid needs to have his energy channeled, and the fact that he’s trying to get a reaction out of you is like saying he wants your attention, he wants to play with you, he just doesn’t know it’s not an entirely unannoying thing he’s doing. So you have to make time for him for a while and find something for him to do that agrees with everyone in the house. I hope some of these suggestions help. Be safe, Tayan (mom to 4-year-old Marken) — I watched Titanic! http://www.singnet.com.sg/~liviafyk/titanic.html (To e-mail, remove "zap" from the address.)

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Angela, I will suggest a few ideas I have collected along the way.  However, every experience is different.  You will find something that works for you.  Then one day you will wake up and it will no longer work.  Then you will have to find something else.  Anyway… You must be consistant.  He is testing his limits.  Especially if this behaviour just began.  Also, get your hands on a book called How to Talk so your Children Will Listen and Listen so your Children Will Talk.  I am not sure who the author is, can’t find my copy right now. You can talk to your doctor.  Often they have advice or a list of helpful reading materials.  My ped recomended a three step program.  You give the child three chances or warnings.  For example:               1) We only touch things at the store if we are going to buy them.             2) Mommy is not going to buy that. If you like you may help me put these items in the shopping cart.  But please do not touch anything else.             3) If the child continues to touch things you leave the store.  No exceptions.  No more chances.  You do not shop with the child for a period of time.  Then you try again.   My ped also suggested putting a lock outside of the child’s bedroom door. You place a latch high on the door in such a way that the door may remain open a crack.  When the child pushes his limits beyond the 3 chances and flies into a tantrum, they are to be placed in there room for 3 minutes or so.  You lock the door and place an egg timer out side of the door so that the child can watch the timer.  The child will learn that regardless of his screams, he will only get out of the room when the time is up.  At first expect the child to be destructive in the room.  After repeating this process, the theory is, the child will sit and watch the timer through the crack in the door until time out is over.  I did not use this idea myself, as I did not feel comfortable with it.  REMEMBER, anyone can offer you advice, even a doctor, as in this case.  It is up to you to accept, reject, or research it further. Also, let your child have more control over things that don’t really matter.  Like what clothes he will wear or what he will have for snack etc. I know it is frustrating but the calmer you remain the productive you will be. Good Luck, Kim (Mom to Meghan, Taylor,  baby Bailey and part-time mom to Madeline) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I need advice badly.  My 22 month old son does NOT listen.  

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> I need advice badly.  My 22 month old son does NOT listen.  It’s only > within the past month or so that he’s turned into a "monster", before > that he was very well behaved.  If I tell him not to touch something, he > purposly touches it, while watching me for my reaction.  He’s a very > intelligent child and knows how to push my buttons, even how to "sneak" > to do the things which are forbidden.  He’s extremely curious and ALWAYS > INTO EVERYTHING also wanting to do things by himself.  When I "really" > yell at him, even smack his fingers, he starts laughing as though it > were a big joke.  I’ve attempted the "time-out" strategy and keeping him > in one place for more than 10 seconds is a real challenge.  When I > physically sit him back down to continue time-out he arches his back and > starts laughing like we’re playing a game.

Welcome to Toddler Land. The first thing you need to understand is that a 2 year old has a very deep need to explore the world and his place in it. Most people think that a 2 year old’s most common word is "NO", but my two year old’s is "Nick do it!". They are all that way, and it’s an important part of their development. > How can I let him know who’s boss? PLEASE HELP!!!!  Any suggestions > would be appreciated……Please post or E-mail.

You can’t, really. He’s not able yet to understand the concept of "boss". What you can dois engage him in ways that use his natural curiosity to get him involved with "safe" things instead of the things you don’t want him to touch. In a lot of cases, you just have to put things you don’t want him to touch out of reach. You can’t "win" a conflict with a 2 year old; the best thing to do is to look for ways to avoid it.

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Hi Angela, I just wanted you to know that you are not alone.  My son is 17 months and he sounds exactly like yours.  This is typical of Dylan, he’ll be doing something he’s not supposed to and I will reprimand him with something like "No Dylan do not play with (cordless phone, remote, etc)" and he will stop, but 2 seconds later he will go back over to it just to touch it one more time.  I can tell that he’s going to be the kind of kid were you tell him… – MOM: "Dylan not one more peep outta you" Dylan: "Peep"  He also laughs at me sometimes like your child does to you.  He doesn’t laugh when my husband reprimands him.  Clearly he has much more respect for my husband.  I think it’s the age plus they do know their mom is a softy for them.  I am going to look for that book "Raising a spirited child" – one other poster suggested it.  Angela, if you find a good solution for dealing with your child please pass it along because I’m right behind you.  Take care..– – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I need advice badly.  My 22 month old son does NOT listen.   > How can I let him know who’s boss? PLEASE HELP!!!!  Any suggestions > would be appreciated……Please post or E-mail. > Angela

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Michelle, I couldn’t help but respond to your post – about your daughter.  The worst thing one parent can do is undermine the authority of the other parent.  I went through that with a step-child and it did almost bring us to divorce. Then with our son I realized (after dh brought it to my attn) that I was doing it to dh.  dh would try to discipline Dylan and I would interject with excuses "He’s tired", etc.  You need to sit down with your dh and lay it on the line.  He is actually doing your daughter harm by clearly sending her the message that she doesn’t have to mind mommy.  From what you describe she’s already a long ways down that path.  What is going on with him?  Clearly he enjoys setting you up to fail.  Then he ridicules you are a bad mother.  He undermines your authority with your daughter and is really putting a wrench into what should be a great relationship for you. You need to take charge of this situation before you end up completely resenting both of them.  I apologize because I know this is completely unsolicited on my part.  Hope I’m not offending you it’s just "I’ve been there, done that" so you have my sympathies.  Take care.– – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> WOW! I guess I’m not alone in this misbehaving stage.. My daughter will be two > in Februaryand she has the worst temper I have ever seen in a child. She hits > me , bites me, kicks me , Throws herself on the floor when she is angry and is > just very mean.. It’s hard trying to be both parents. I have a husband who is > hands off type . I think it has alot to do with her father he yells and > disagrees with the way I disapline her right in front of her .. He has no > respect for me as a mother and I think she figures why should she .. Besides > the book suggested what else do you think I should do ??. Divorce isn’t > completely out of the question as far as the father ,but should I seek > conseling for me and my daughter . If so where does any one know of a counsler > in San Diego, California  area  ?. Well I’m completely lost so I need all the > help I can get have another baby due this year June(98) HELP!!! me please I’m > desprate for some help, guidence, something .. Thank you Michelle (Camille’s > mom& soon to be mom again)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > WOW! I guess I’m not alone in this misbehaving stage.. My daughter will be two > in Februaryand she has the worst temper I have ever seen in a child. She hits > me , bites me, kicks me , Throws herself on the floor when she is angry and is > just very mean.. It’s hard trying to be both parents. I have a husband who is > hands off type . I think it has alot to do with her father he yells and > disagrees with the way I disapline her right in front of her .. He has no > respect for me as a mother and I think she figures why should she .. Besides > the book suggested what else do you think I should do ??. Divorce isn’t > completely out of the question as far as the father ,but should I seek > conseling for me and my daughter . If so where does any one know of a counsler > in San Diego, California  area  ?. Well I’m completely lost so I need all the > help I can get have another baby due this year June(98) HELP!!! me please I’m > desprate for some help, guidence, something .. Thank you Michelle (Camille’s > mom& soon to be mom again)

Before making the decision to divorce, I hope you try getting your husband into counseling.  Parenting styles are often easily changed with the help of a trained counselor.  Have you talked to your husband about how his comments undermine your parenting and make you feel helpless and angry?   CA cities usually have a referral service for therapists.  Look in the government pages of the phone book under Mental Health and/or Human Services.  Often you can find therapists who’s fees are based on your ability to pay (if money is an issue). Divorce should not be your first choice.  Try to work things out in your marraige first – for the sake of your daughter.  You’ll not only be giving her a life with both parents, you’ll also have the satisfaction of knowing you succeeded in beating the odds. Good luck, Laurie

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WOW! I guess I’m not alone in this misbehaving stage.. My daughter will be two in Februaryand she has the worst temper I have ever seen in a child. She hits me , bites me, kicks me , Throws herself on the floor when she is angry and is just very mean.. It’s hard trying to be both parents. I have a husband who is hands off type . I think it has alot to do with her father he yells and disagrees with the way I disapline her right in front of her .. He has no respect for me as a mother and I think she figures why should she .. Besides the book suggested what else do you think I should do ??. Divorce isn’t completely out of the question as far as the father ,but should I seek conseling for me and my daughter . If so where does any one know of a counsler in San Diego, California  area  ?. Well I’m completely lost so I need all the help I can get have another baby due this year June(98) HELP!!! me please I’m desprate for some help, guidence, something .. Thank you Michelle (Camille’s mom& soon to be mom again)

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Wow, I think you just described my 22 month old daughter.  Maybe it’s an age thing.  Just today, I tried to go to the Hallmark store for a few minutes to pick up some cards.  I realize that a Hallmark store is full of things that a child that age would love to touch but our experience in the store today was so bad I don’t think I’ll ever go back with her!!!  Even the lady at the register said maybe she needed a nap!! Her nerve!!! I can’t offer anything but sympathy and understanding and I’m hoping someone will post a cure for both of us!!! Good luck! Dawn (Taylor and Mackenzie’s mom)

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It sounds like your child is at the age where boundaries are tested and so is patience.  the terrible twos?  Try to put your emotions aside.  What your child wants more than anything is to see your reaction.  Are they evil?  No.  Just curious.  They are learning about you and your rules and how much they can get away with.  Be firm on important issues such as not running into traffic or climbing on the lamps.  It sounds mean, but sometimes they have to just learn by error  e.g. the hot stove thing. Perhaps also your child is spirited.  If that is the case, the book "Raising your spirited child" (I forget the author’s name) helps a lot.  Put yourself in your child’s shoes and think about what the world would look like from his/her perspective.  Be consistant but firm.  Make sure the consequence fits the deed and that the child knows what the consequence will be.   aks

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I need advice badly.  My 22 month old son does NOT listen.  It’s only > within the past month or so that he’s turned into a "monster", before > that he was very well behaved.  If I tell him not to touch something, he > purposly touches it, while watching me for my reaction.  He’s a very > intelligent child and knows how to push my buttons, even how to "sneak" > to do the things which are forbidden.  He’s extremely curious and ALWAYS > INTO EVERYTHING also wanting to do things by himself.  When I "really" > yell at him, even smack his fingers, he starts laughing as though it > were a big joke.  I’ve attempted the "time-out" strategy and keeping him > in one place for more than 10 seconds is a real challenge.  When I > physically sit him back down to continue time-out he arches his back and > starts laughing like we’re playing a game. > How can I let him know who’s boss? PLEASE HELP!!!!  Any suggestions > would be appreciated……Please post or E-mail. > Angela

Get Holding Time by Martha Welch.  Try the library if funds are short. I don’t think you can let any child know who is boss, but certainly you can embark on a very loving, cooperative partnership, if you take the time to use the simple techniques of Holding Time. Otherwise organise your house so there is little that he can’t touch or do a very radical thing which I did.  I told my two daughters to misbehave as much as they could, as I wanted them to have a safe space in which to test their autonomy.  So they did rebel, and became good for years.  They still are good. Rayner

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I need advice badly.  My 22 month old son does NOT listen.  It’s only within the past month or so that he’s turned into a "monster", before that he was very well behaved.  If I tell him not to touch something, he purposly touches it, while watching me for my reaction.  He’s a very intelligent child and knows how to push my buttons, even how to "sneak" to do the things which are forbidden.  He’s extremely curious and ALWAYS INTO EVERYTHING also wanting to do things by himself.  When I "really" yell at him, even smack his fingers, he starts laughing as though it were a big joke.  I’ve attempted the "time-out" strategy and keeping him in one place for more than 10 seconds is a real challenge.  When I physically sit him back down to continue time-out he arches his back and starts laughing like we’re playing a game.     How can I let him know who’s boss? PLEASE HELP!!!!  Any suggestions would be appreciated……Please post or E-mail. Angela

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Question:

Hi Mike, Although your motivation behind this post is clear, the conclusions seem a bit far-reaching and problematic as well. In addition to unconditional love (which truly is essential), children need limits, and limits need to be enforced by healthy consequences to inappropriate behaviors.  This is also a form of love.  In fact, I believe a lack of healthy limit setting is also abusive, since a child raised without limits will in all likelihood grow up without an understanding of how to integrate into larger society, and will therefore almost certainly suffer enormously. In terms of heterosexuals and homosexuals, I don’t think it is helpful or accurate to hold a group responsible for the actions of some of the individuals within it.  There are also those in the gay and lesbian community who are abusive.  This is not just a heterosexual issue. Finally, you sound like you’ve come a long way in dealing with your own abuse.  And your desire to give love to any children you might have is admirable.  You might want to take some parenting classes however before you take the step of having a child, since your parental role-model was clearly so dysfunctional.  There are better examples to follow and tried-and-true parenting methodologies for both heterosexual and gay and lesbian parents which you might find very helpful. Best of luck to you, — Hugh Simmons, CSW http://www.hughsimmons.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >First of all, before I continue, I want to state that I was physically >abused by my father as a child, and because of it, I decided I did not want >to be anything like him, and chose another direction in my life. Recently I >have come to the conclusion that I think I would have been a good parent, >and have begun reconsidering some conclusions I made based on my father’s >own style of parenting. >I live in the upstairs apartment of my father’s house these days, and we get >along okay, although he still has never apologized for using physical >violence on a child. I doubt it will ever happen, but I think that this is >his problem, and I fear that this will turn out to come back at him some way >in the end. >I continue. First, the solution; >Just give the children what they want, and what they want is the >unconditional love of their parents, and what they want is to be taught love >by their parents. They don’t want to experience hate and pain, and they >don’t want to be taught hate and pain, they just want love. Give them the >all the love you can give them and all the love they want, they’ll get >enough pain on their own in their life. >Now, the problem; >All the problems in the world, and I mean ALL the problems in the world, can >be traced back to irresponsible reproduction and child >abuse/abandonment/neglect/molestation by heterosexual parents. >And then they try to blame the problems which they themselves have caused on >other things, like economics, drug abuse, homosexuality, etc., etc., ad >nauseum, until they feel better about the crimes against the human race >which they themselves have committed, under the banner and permission of >their false belief systems. >And then they try to pass laws and restrict the freedoms of other people on >whom they tried to blame the problems of the world, when they were the cause >of the problems in the first place. >The only people who will deny this are the heterosexuals and parents of the >world. The only people who will deny this are those who are they themselves >the problem. >To paraphrase Keanu Reeves’ character "Todd" in the movie Parenthood; "You >need a license to hunt, you need a license to drive, hell, you need a >license to catch a damn fish. But any butt-headed asshole can have a child." >Ain’t that the truth? In these times of rampant unlawful licensing, perhaps >we should license parenthood? >Yes, the heterosexuals and parents have failed the children of the world all >throughout history, don’t you think that it is time to give the bisexuals >and homosexuals a chance to see what they can contribute to the world with >their lifestyle and their ideas? >No, the heterosexuals and the parents will just keep on fostering their >false belief systems and their irresponsible reproduction and child >abuse/abandonment/neglect/molestation on the children of the world, call it >human nature, and continue to shift the blame onto the heads of their own >innocent children. >Love, peace and freedom for all people, >Mike >Have you had a new idea today? >How about love, peace and freedom for ALL people? >http://www.universalway.org

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As far as I am concerned, children are smarter than parents, because they haven’t yet been indoctrinated to society as their parents have. If you birth them naturally, do not circumcise them, hold them when they cry, feed them healthily, give them love and teach them love, and teach them basic concepts as to how to treat other people (do unto others is simple and effective), then children will develop their own limits. As for my own parenting, I have given my advice to my sister (no, not "given," "terrorized"), and she has told me she has followed much of it in raising her child (my niece). I think that Kristen (my niece) is the proof of my parenting theories in action, to a degree, because I would give my child more love and more freedom than my sister. I’d also feed them ginseng and bee pollen at a very early age (those who know about them understand what that would do). Take a look at Kristen at; http://www.universalway.org/yourhost.html Love, peace and freedom for all people, Mike Have you had a new idea today? How about love, peace and freedom for ALL people? http://www.universalway.org

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Seems to me that if people are abusing/abandoning/harming/beating…etc. etc. their children it IS their problem.  Whether they are hetero, homo, or bi.  If you know its wrong to sexually, physically, or verbally abuse someone and do it anyway, you need to blame yourself.  Not your parents and not heterosexual people for crying out loud.  People need to stand up and take responsibility for their actions.  You said you don’t want to be anything like your father.  That sounds like a good choice to me.  But IF you do have children and IF you abuse them, would it be your fathers fault or yours? M. Yokeley – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >First of all, before I continue, I want to state that I was physically >abused by my father as a child, and because of it, I decided I did not want >to be anything like him, and chose another direction in my life. Recently I >have come to the conclusion that I think I would have been a good parent, >and have begun reconsidering some conclusions I made based on my father’s >own style of parenting. >I live in the upstairs apartment of my father’s house these days, and we get >along okay, although he still has never apologized for using physical >violence on a child. I doubt it will ever happen, but I think that this is >his problem, and I fear that this will turn out to come back at him some way >in the end. >I continue. First, the solution; >Just give the children what they want, and what they want is the >unconditional love of their parents, and what they want is to be taught love >by their parents. They don’t want to experience hate and pain, and they >don’t want to be taught hate and pain, they just want love. Give them the >all the love you can give them and all the love they want, they’ll get >enough pain on their own in their life. >Now, the problem; >All the problems in the world, and I mean ALL the problems in the world, can >be traced back to irresponsible reproduction and child >abuse/abandonment/neglect/molestation by heterosexual parents. >And then they try to blame the problems which they themselves have caused on >other things, like economics, drug abuse, homosexuality, etc., etc., ad >nauseum, until they feel better about the crimes against the human race >which they themselves have committed, under the banner and permission of >their false belief systems. >And then they try to pass laws and restrict the freedoms of other people on >whom they tried to blame the problems of the world, when they were the cause >of the problems in the first place. >The only people who will deny this are the heterosexuals and parents of the >world. The only people who will deny this are those who are they themselves >the problem. >To paraphrase Keanu Reeves’ character "Todd" in the movie Parenthood; "You >need a license to hunt, you need a license to drive, hell, you need a >license to catch a damn fish. But any butt-headed asshole can have a child." >Ain’t that the truth? In these times of rampant unlawful licensing, perhaps >we should license parenthood? >Yes, the heterosexuals and parents have failed the children of the world all >throughout history, don’t you think that it is time to give the bisexuals >and homosexuals a chance to see what they can contribute to the world with >their lifestyle and their ideas? >No, the heterosexuals and the parents will just keep on fostering their >false belief systems and their irresponsible reproduction and child >abuse/abandonment/neglect/molestation on the children of the world, call it >human nature, and continue to shift the blame onto the heads of their own >innocent children. >Love, peace and freedom for all people, >Mike >Have you had a new idea today? >How about love, peace and freedom for ALL people? >http://www.universalway.org

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First of all, before I continue, I want to state that I was physically abused by my father as a child, and because of it, I decided I did not want to be anything like him, and chose another direction in my life. Recently I have come to the conclusion that I think I would have been a good parent, and have begun reconsidering some conclusions I made based on my father’s own style of parenting. I live in the upstairs apartment of my father’s house these days, and we get along okay, although he still has never apologized for using physical violence on a child. I doubt it will ever happen, but I think that this is his problem, and I fear that this will turn out to come back at him some way in the end. I continue. First, the solution; Just give the children what they want, and what they want is the unconditional love of their parents, and what they want is to be taught love by their parents. They don’t want to experience hate and pain, and they don’t want to be taught hate and pain, they just want love. Give them the all the love you can give them and all the love they want, they’ll get enough pain on their own in their life. Now, the problem; All the problems in the world, and I mean ALL the problems in the world, can be traced back to irresponsible reproduction and child abuse/abandonment/neglect/molestation by heterosexual parents. And then they try to blame the problems which they themselves have caused on other things, like economics, drug abuse, homosexuality, etc., etc., ad nauseum, until they feel better about the crimes against the human race which they themselves have committed, under the banner and permission of their false belief systems. And then they try to pass laws and restrict the freedoms of other people on whom they tried to blame the problems of the world, when they were the cause of the problems in the first place. The only people who will deny this are the heterosexuals and parents of the world. The only people who will deny this are those who are they themselves the problem. To paraphrase Keanu Reeves’ character "Todd" in the movie Parenthood; "You need a license to hunt, you need a license to drive, hell, you need a license to catch a damn fish. But any butt-headed asshole can have a child." Ain’t that the truth? In these times of rampant unlawful licensing, perhaps we should license parenthood? Yes, the heterosexuals and parents have failed the children of the world all throughout history, don’t you think that it is time to give the bisexuals and homosexuals a chance to see what they can contribute to the world with their lifestyle and their ideas? No, the heterosexuals and the parents will just keep on fostering their false belief systems and their irresponsible reproduction and child abuse/abandonment/neglect/molestation on the children of the world, call it human nature, and continue to shift the blame onto the heads of their own innocent children. Love, peace and freedom for all people, Mike Have you had a new idea today? How about love, peace and freedom for ALL people? http://www.universalway.org

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Question:

I think you should head straight for some parenting classes and quickly.  I sense in your post that you are at the end of your rope and it is so easy to loose your temper.  I know how you feel.  Now I can understand why my mom would just say sometimes "because I said so".  You get tired of always having to justify everything to the child.  Hang in there and get help learning some tools to cope. — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We are the mentally and physically fatigued parents of a just turned > three year old.  Our son has always been a bit more demanding, a bit > more intelligent, a bit more this and that – than we anticipated when we > decided that we were ready to be parents and all that it meant. But > lately we find that there is little quality control happening in our > household and the hostility and anger is mounting as we watch ourselves > slowly but surely lose control of our son.  Don’t get me wrong – it’s > not that I want an obedient little introverted "lap dog".  I want an > enthusiastic, inquisitive child.  It’s just that I’m so tired of the > battles that gone on constantly throughout the day to get the basic > stuff done, like getting dressed, putting on a seatbelt, brushing teeth, > eating dinner…you name it.  And I find that this frustration is > growing into anger and hostility on my part as the constant battles are > inevitably causing conflict to extend to my husband and I.  We’ve always > had the usual marital tensions but this parenting thing has added so > much stress and especially in the last year that we often feel we’re on > a sinking ship.  I think what really concerns me to is that I often feel > really guilty when I end up getting so angry with my son that I yell at > him and say things that are not necessary and probably only aggravate > the problem.  He’s also a really sensitive little guy and I think I’ve > hurt his feelings more than once.  Anyway, I’m not looking for your > sympathies or anything to ease my guilt – just some practical ways to > cope – other than to hop on a plane on friday and return monday. > Anita

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>We are the mentally and physically fatigued parents of a just turned >three year old.  Our son has always been a bit more demanding, a bit >more intelligent, a bit more this and that – than we anticipated when we >decided that we were ready to be parents and all that it meant. But >lately we find that there is little quality control happening in our >household and the hostility and anger is mounting as we watch ourselves >slowly but surely lose control of our son.  Don’t get me wrong – it’s >not that I want an obedient little introverted "lap dog".  I want an >enthusiastic, inquisitive child.  It’s just that I’m so tired of the >battles that gone on constantly throughout the day to get the basic >stuff done, like getting dressed, putting on a seatbelt, brushing teeth, >eating dinner…you name it.

I am the mother of a very spirited 2 yr old and a spirited/ADHD 6yr old, both boys.  I have learned to be consistant-very consistant-even when I am too tired to be consistent.  My lack of inconsistency was behind many battles in my home.  I still have battles but I now choose which one’s are worth the effort.  Examples: what they where as long as it is somewhat appropriate does not matter, wearing a seat belt does and if I must I take charge and put the seat belt on a kicking-screaming child.  Brushing teeth, as long as it is done at least once a day am happy sometimes I must do this myself other times they will do it.   Eating dinner, if they are not hungry fine, but nothing else to eat until the next meal unless I know it is something they really don’t like then I will make a PBJ sandwich, heck I don’t eat what I don’t like.  I know raising a spirited child is hard and you don’t want to squash his spirit, but you must take charge and let him know who is the parent and who makes the rules.  Just make sure the rules are rule’s you will enforce and strictly so he does not get mixed messages.   > And I find that this frustration is >growing into anger and hostility on my part as the constant battles are >inevitably causing conflict to extend to my husband and I.  We’ve always >had the usual marital tensions but this parenting thing has added so >much stress and especially in the last year that we often feel we’re on >a sinking ship.  I think what really concerns me to is that I often feel >really guilty when I end up getting so angry with my son that I yell at >him and say things that are not necessary and probably only aggravate >the problem.  He’s also a really sensitive little guy and I think I’ve >hurt his feelings more than once.  Anyway, I’m not looking for your >sympathies or anything to ease my guilt – just some practical ways to >cope – other than to hop on a plane on friday and return monday. >Anita

Taylor

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We are the mentally and physically fatigued parents of a just turned three year old.  Our son has always been a bit more demanding, a bit more intelligent, a bit more this and that – than we anticipated when we decided that we were ready to be parents and all that it meant. But lately we find that there is little quality control happening in our household and the hostility and anger is mounting as we watch ourselves slowly but surely lose control of our son.  Don’t get me wrong – it’s not that I want an obedient little introverted "lap dog".  I want an enthusiastic, inquisitive child.  It’s just that I’m so tired of the battles that gone on constantly throughout the day to get the basic stuff done, like getting dressed, putting on a seatbelt, brushing teeth, eating dinner…you name it.  And I find that this frustration is growing into anger and hostility on my part as the constant battles are inevitably causing conflict to extend to my husband and I.  We’ve always had the usual marital tensions but this parenting thing has added so much stress and especially in the last year that we often feel we’re on a sinking ship.  I think what really concerns me to is that I often feel really guilty when I end up getting so angry with my son that I yell at him and say things that are not necessary and probably only aggravate the problem.  He’s also a really sensitive little guy and I think I’ve hurt his feelings more than once.  Anyway, I’m not looking for your sympathies or anything to ease my guilt – just some practical ways to cope – other than to hop on a plane on friday and return monday. Anita

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> A very good friend of mine who lives 1000 miles away came for a visit with > her husband and 8 month old son.  Their son is 3 months younger than mine. >  When my friend was visiting they would set their son on the counter in the > kitchen when they were fixing him a meal.  I freaked and immediately went > over and stood in front of him and of course said something to her "oh he’s > fine".  They would also leave him on the couch sitting by himself. > I have been friends with > this woman for years.  She is even a year older than me and really wanted > this baby.  I’ve seen both of the parents around this child and he seems > very much loved.  Could both these people really be so stupid?

I have a very similar situation with my brother and his wife.  They would put their very young infant in an infant seat, not buckled, on the kitchen counter. When I saw this, I immediately buckled my niece into the seat and stayed next to it.  My brother was surprised to find the buckle fastened and asked what was going on.  I explained the dangers and told of a friend’s infant who flipped his infant seat right off the table at 4 months old. Next time I was at their home, same thing.  I figured that I’d said all I could say, but I still insisted that while I was there that the baby be buckled in the seat. There’s more stuff, too.  Like the times when the pacifier falls on the floor and either parent picks it up, puts it in their own mouth(to clean it, I guess), then puts it back in the baby’s mouth. I guess it’s the big sister in me, but I always ask them to indulge me and let ME rinse the pacifier off in the sink -OR- let ME buckle the baby in the baby swing -OR- etc…. I also refuse to give their toddler food from my spoon/fork.  She’s cute as can be, so I offer to give her a plate of her own and her own spoon, then let her sit close to me while I give her a small portion of food from the serving bowl. > I told my husband about our friends baby and he > said I should call CPS because that child isn’t being taken proper care of > (my dh is a little bit of an extremist).  What do you other  parents think?

Calling CPS isn’t what I would do.  Keep close touch with your friend and share your concerns, plus share your own worries about your parenting style and habits.  If something your friend is doing really troubles you, by all means speak up.  But be constructive, not scolding.  At least that’s what I _hope_ I am doing with my bro and sil…. You sound like a very good friend! Cheers, Barbara Mom to:  Christian(12) and Douglas(9) in rural Illinois

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> There’s more stuff, too.  Like the times when the pacifier falls on the > floor and either parent picks it up, puts it in their own mouth(to clean > it, I guess), then puts it back in the baby’s mouth.

Um, what parent _hasn’t_ done this?  I thought this skill was some type of requirement or something. Rob

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To me this is far away from my original post.  While not a sanitary thing to do it is not going to break the babies neck – which is really my original concern for my friend’s son. — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There’s more stuff, too.  Like the times when the pacifier falls on the > floor and either parent picks it up, puts it in their own mouth(to clean > it, I guess), then puts it back in the baby’s mouth. > Um, what parent _hasn’t_ done this?  I thought this skill was some type of > requirement or something. > Rob

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A friend in our feb moms group had a niece die in 1996 after a fall from a counter – The 9 mos old child kicked or something and the bouncy seat flipped off the counter. The child hit her head and died within a day or two. It is a risk to do this. Please relate this story to your friend and maybe they will see how dangerous it can be. That family loved their daughter, too.

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>> There’s more stuff, too.  Like the times when the pacifier falls on the > floor and either parent picks it up, puts it in their own mouth(to clean > it, I guess), then puts it back in the baby’s mouth. >Um, what parent _hasn’t_ done this?  I thought this skill was some type of >requirement or something.

I gotta agree with you on this one.  I was suprised that BarbarAnn included that particular thing with the dangerous items.  If we are out somewhere and the pacifier falls, I always clean it off in my mouth before giving it back to my child.  I’d rather get whatever germs are on it, than give it to them.  There usually is no other means of cleaning it off.   This may not be the best way to clean a pacifier, but some times there are no alternatives. -Suzi  >Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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>I have a very similar situation with my brother and his wife.  They would >put their very young infant in an infant seat, not buckled, on the >kitchen counter. When I saw this, I immediately buckled my niece into the >seat and stayed next to it.  My brother was surprised to find the buckle >fastened and asked what was going on.  I explained the dangers and told >of a friend’s infant who flipped his infant seat right off the table at 4 >months old.

This reminds me.  My friend is a manager of a restaraunt.  She was helping a woman with a baby in a carrier and a toddler into a booth at her restaraunt and was putting the baby in the carrier on a high chair (it was made to accomodate the carrier).  They both had their hands on the carrier and my friend let go.  The woman didn’t have a good hold on the carrier.  It flipped and the baby went, literally, flying. The woman accused my friend of doing something stupid and she just said, "I thought you had it handled and I would have thought the baby would have been strapped in." Luckily the baby was unharmed and my friend tried to help to woman walk to the store where her husband was.  The woman found a grocery cart outside the restaraunt and put the now strapped in baby in there and the other stuff and left. This could have been much worse, or much better.  The baby could have gotten hurt badly.  or the baby could have been strapped in and never hit the floor. Nyoka (mom to Trevor (b 8/8/95)

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I also refuse to give their toddler food from my spoon/fork.  She’s cute as can be, so I offer to give her a plate of her own and her own spoon, then let her sit close to me while I give her a small portion of food from the serving bowl. I agree that you should not feed her with your fork or spoon or fork but I think for me It is tatally ok to feed my son from my utinsils. Amber (mother of one 11 month old boy Robert III)

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> > There’s more stuff, too.  Like the times when the pacifier falls on the > floor and either parent picks it up, puts it in their own mouth(to clean > it, I guess), then puts it back in the baby’s mouth. > Um, what parent _hasn’t_ done this?  I thought this skill was some type of > requirement or something. > Rob

I was thinking the same thing!   -Amber

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ROFL – definitely a parenting skill where I come from ) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There’s more stuff, too.  Like the times when the pacifier falls on the > floor and either parent picks it up, puts it in their own mouth(to clean > it, I guess), then puts it back in the baby’s mouth. > Um, what parent _hasn’t_ done this?  I thought this skill was some type of > requirement or something. > Rob

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There was a case not too long ago where a child while at the babysitters had fallen asleep in the car seat, so she brought him into the house and set him on the couch in the car seat.  She went to check on the other children but must have been go for a while as the child woke up and tried to get out of car seat and tipped it over, and he hung himself on the straps of the car seat.  Maybe explain to you friend that she should always place a car seat on the floor and have it belted up. Debbie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A friend in our feb moms group had a niece die in 1996 after a fall from > a counter – The 9 mos old child kicked or something and the bouncy seat > flipped off the counter. The child hit her head and died within a day or > two. It is a risk to do this. Please relate this story to your friend > and maybe they will see how dangerous it can be. That family loved their > daughter, too.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > There’s more stuff, too.  Like the times when the pacifier falls on the > > floor and either parent picks it up, puts it in their own mouth(to clean > > it, I guess), then puts it back in the baby’s mouth. > Um, what parent _hasn’t_ done this?  I thought this skill was some type of > requirement or something. > Rob > I was thinking the same thing! > -Amber

I guess, Amber, that innoculating your own child with a cold you have is ok. Are you aware that even before one "feels" the beginnings of cold, the cold virus is being shed and you are spreading your cold to others? But, it’s your choice. And, since not all colds manifest the same way in kids as they do in adults, I guess risking ones child contracting something that would possibly put them in the hospital, isn’t a big concern to some parents. If I know that something I do or don’t do _may_ result in my child getting really, really sick, then THAT concerns me. But, again, it’s your kid and your choice. I suppose too, that since one cannot actually _see_ the chemicals or pesticides or herbicides that have been tracked into their homes and onto their floors, then one should ignore the possibility of such toxic substances being there? Who knows what the cumulative effect of ingesting all these chemicals/ pesticides/herbicides have on us, even if it’s just a wee bit now and then.  I don’t know the answer, but if second-hand smoke is being seen as causing lung cancer, then I’m not going to take such a cavalier attitude towards things I KNOW are very likely on the ground or floor getting into my kids systems. But, again, it’s your kid.  It’s your decision. Remember when using carseats for kids was just coming into wide use?  I do.  So many of the grandparents just couldn’t understand what all the fuss was about when their children insisted on buckling their grandkids in the carseat each and every time they took the kids out in the car. "Oh, but your’re only going a couple of blocks," they’d say, "what could happen?"  Sadly, we’ve seen in the news what could happen. FWIW, I’m sure there are things that I’m not greatly concerned about, but are a very great concern to others.  For instance, I DO sit down when I use public bathrooms.  This isn’t the greatest example either, but I hope you can see what I’m trying to say. Barbara

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> I guess, Amber, that innoculating your own child with a cold you have is ok.

Well I will keep my fingers crossed I havent had a cold since he was born.  Are you aware that even before one "feels" the beginnings of cold, > the cold virus is being shed and you are spreading your cold to others?

I also know that it is not the healthyest thing but some times it is the only option.  I also con give my son a cold by kissing him, holding him, and/or being close to him and I am not going to stop that! > But, it’s your choice. > And, since not all colds manifest the same way in kids as they do in > adults, I guess risking ones child contracting something that would > possibly put them in the hospital, isn’t a big concern to some parents. > If I know that something I do or don’t do _may_ result in my child > getting really, really sick, then THAT concerns me.

I don’t think he is going to get that sick off my syliva. > But, again, it’s your kid and your choice. > I suppose too, that since one cannot actually _see_ the chemicals or > pesticides or herbicides that have been tracked into their homes and onto > their floors, then one should ignore the possibility of such toxic > substances being there? Who knows what the cumulative effect of ingesting > all these chemicals/ pesticides/herbicides have on us, even if it’s just > a wee bit now and then.  I don’t know the answer, but if second-hand > smoke is being seen as causing lung cancer, then I’m not going to take > such a cavalier attitude towards things I KNOW are very likely on the > ground or floor getting into my kids systems.

I would rather have that stuff in my mouth that in his By the way I don’t agree in and of the not buckling in stuff! -Amber

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writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I suppose too, that since one cannot actually _see_ the chemicals or >pesticides or herbicides that have been tracked into their homes and onto >their floors, then one should ignore the possibility of such toxic >substances being there? Who knows what the cumulative effect of ingesting >all these chemicals/ pesticides/herbicides have on us, even if it’s just >a wee bit now and then.  I don’t know the answer, but if second-hand >smoke is being seen as causing lung cancer, then I’m not going to take >such a cavalier attitude towards things I KNOW are very likely on the >ground or floor getting into my kids systems. >But, again, it’s your kid.  It’s your decision. >Barbara

Well, what do you do with a thumb sucking 7 month old who is in the crawling stage?  And is that much different, germ and pesticide wise than a pacifier dropping to the ground?  It seems to me that we can try, but every child is going to ingest her share of dirt. A friend of mine came into the baby’s room when he was making happy gurgling noises…. he was chewing on a frog……a real live frog…. of course, that’s south florida for you! Enid

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Sorry…guilty! Kim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > There’s more stuff, too.  Like the times when the pacifier falls on the > > floor and either parent picks it up, puts it in their own mouth(to clean > > it, I guess), then puts it back in the baby’s mouth. > Um, what parent _hasn’t_ done this?  I thought this skill was some type of > requirement or something. > Rob > I was thinking the same thing!   > -Amber

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > There’s more stuff, too.  Like the times when the pacifier falls on the > > > floor and either parent picks it up, puts it in their own mouth(to clean > > > it, I guess), then puts it back in the baby’s mouth. > > Um, what parent _hasn’t_ done this?  I thought this skill was some type of > > requirement or something. > > Rob > I was thinking the same thing! > -Amber > I guess, Amber, that innoculating your own child with a cold you have is > ok. Are you aware that even before one "feels" the beginnings of cold, > the cold virus is being shed and you are spreading your cold to others? > But, it’s your choice. > And, since not all colds manifest the same way in kids as they do in > adults, I guess risking ones child contracting something that would > possibly put them in the hospital, isn’t a big concern to some parents. > If I know that something I do or don’t do _may_ result in my child > getting really, really sick, then THAT concerns me. > But, again, it’s your kid and your choice. > I suppose too, that since one cannot actually _see_ the chemicals or > pesticides or herbicides that have been tracked into their homes and onto > their floors, then one should ignore the possibility of such toxic > substances being there? Who knows what the cumulative effect of ingesting > all these chemicals/ pesticides/herbicides have on us, even if it’s just > a wee bit now and then.  I don’t know the answer, but if second-hand > smoke is being seen as causing lung cancer, then I’m not going to take > such a cavalier attitude towards things I KNOW are very likely on the > ground or floor getting into my kids systems. > But, again, it’s your kid.  It’s your decision. > Remember when using carseats for kids was just coming into wide use?  I > do.  So many of the grandparents just couldn’t understand what all the > fuss was about when their children insisted on buckling their grandkids > in the carseat each and every time they took the kids out in the car. > "Oh, but your’re only going a couple of blocks," they’d say, "what could > happen?"  Sadly, we’ve seen in the news what could happen. > FWIW, I’m sure there are things that I’m not greatly concerned about, but > are a very great concern to others.  For instance, I DO sit down when I > use public bathrooms.  This isn’t the greatest example either, but I hope > you can see what I’m trying to say. > Barbara

Barbara, I understand what you’re saying, but considering the time I spent (and still do spend) hugging, kissing, snuggling, etc. my twins, if they were going to catch a cold from me, they were going to get it regardless of whether I sucked on their pacifiers or not! How are you going to make sure that you *don’t* pass a cold to your baby, never get close enough to breathe on him/her?? Of course if I *knew* I was coming down with something I tried to minimize the risk (no kisses on the cheeks or hands, etc.), but I’m not going to live my whole life that way "just in case". In any case, I nursed them for 18 months, so while they were very small, anything I was coming down with they were already getting antibodies for. As far as what’s on the floor, it’s a concern and I *try* to keep my floors clean, but geez, my boys are playing on the floor all the time anyway so I really don’t see that they’ll be getting anything new/anything more from sucking on a pacifier that’s been on the floor. (shrug) If you’re desperately concerned about it, then of course that’s your right, but I don’t see a whole lot of justification for it. –Summer

Response:

What is ROFL? — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ROFL – definitely a parenting skill where I come from ) > > There’s more stuff, too.  Like the times when the pacifier falls on the > > floor and either parent picks it up, puts it in their own mouth(to > clean > > it, I guess), then puts it back in the baby’s mouth. > Um, what parent _hasn’t_ done this?  I thought this skill was some type > of > requirement or something. > Rob

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

>> (snip). >  When my friend was visiting they would set their son on the counter in the > kitchen when they were fixing him a meal.  I freaked and immediately went > over and stood in front of him and of course said something to her "oh he’s > fine".  They would also leave him on the couch sitting by himself.  When he > was about 4 months old his mother had him in a car seat (unbuckled) and set > him up on the kitchen counter – then she went outside for a smoke.  He > somehow tipped the car seat and fell to the floor.

(major snip) >I think I’d probably call CPS, simply because it doesn’t sound like >anything less will actually get through to these people that they’re >endangering their son’s life. >(snip) >–Summer

Personally, I think Summer’s solution is a little extreme.  Most of us are overprotective in some area and much more relaxed in others.  For example, when my oldest son was 5 I would let him play with other children in the court nearby.  Other parents–good parents–said they would be too worried about their child’s safety if they couldn’t be there physically to watch him/her.  Three of my children were climbing up our small flight of stairs at 8 mos. (we lived in a one-story with the oldest, so I didn’t have to worry).  When they did that, my husband, older children, and I taught the infant how to get back down. OTOH, I hated infant seats, and was extremely careful where I put my infants in them.  Never on the counter, rarely in the middle of my large, stable, oak dining table. And I am a carseat/seatbelt fanatic. I liked the suggestion that you send them a babyproofing book and some extra outlet caps.  Or maybe suggesting a parenting class.  Another idea would be to send them a subscription to Parents’ Magazine, if they don’t already get it.  I found it had a lot of good safety ideas and brought up issues I certainly didn’t think of.  Plus it has a section divided into age groups which gives you a glimpse into where your baby (and your friends’ baby) is heading as well as info about where you are.  (Just when you  have your house baby-proofed for a crawler, the baby decides to walk!) Hope this helps, Denise who’s four kids have survived infancy and toddlerhood.  Now, will I survive the teens?

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Or perhaps as the friend is 1000 miles away a first step might be to notify some more local acquaintances and family members of your concerns.  Choose whom to contact carefully though! — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A very good friend of mine who lives 1000 miles away came for a visit with > her husband and 8 month old son.  Their son is 3 months younger than mine. >  When my friend was visiting they would set their son on the counter in the > kitchen when they were fixing him a meal.  I freaked and immediately went > over and stood in front of him and of course said something to her "oh he’s > fine".  They would also leave him on the couch sitting by himself. When he > was about 4 months old his mother had him in a car seat (unbuckled) and set > him up on the kitchen counter – then she went outside for a smoke.  He > somehow tipped the car seat and fell to the floor.  Thank God he didn’t > have anything more than a bruise.  Yesterday I talked to her and she was > thinking about taking her son to the doctor.  His dad had set him in a > chair at the table and he had fallen off and hit his head on the vacumn > cleaner right below the table.  She has also said to me that she lets him > climb up the first landing of their stair case.   I have been friends with > this woman for years.  She is even a year older than me and really wanted > this baby.  I’ve seen both of the parents around this child and he seems > very much loved.  Could both these people really be so stupid? > I watch my son like a hawk. One time when my son  was two weeks old I laid > him on the couch and went in the other room to get something – THUMP – he > some how had rolled off of the couch at 2 weeks! That taught me a very good > lesson and now I make sure he cannot climb unsupervised (up onto the couch, > etc).  She actually had the nerve to mention she thought my son needed more > attention (she is SAH I am WM).  I’ve heard mention that a pediatrician > once said a little child without a couple minor bruises is a child who is > being overprotected.  I understood the drs. statement and do agree with it > and my son always has a tiny bruise on his shin just from being an active > 13 month old baby boy.  I told my husband about our friends baby and he > said I should call CPS because that child isn’t being taken proper care of > (my dh is a little bit of an extremist).  What do you other  parents think? > I think I’d probably call CPS, simply because it doesn’t sound like > anything less will actually get through to these people that they’re > endangering their son’s life. Look at it this way — if you call, at > least you’ve tried to help this little boy, but how will you feel if you > *don’t* call, and something horrible happens? I, personally, would have > a very hard time living with myself. > –Summer

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A very good friend of mine who lives 1000 miles away came for a visit with > her husband and 8 month old son.  Their son is 3 months younger than mine. >  When my friend was visiting they would set their son on the counter in the > kitchen when they were fixing him a meal.  I freaked and immediately went > over and stood in front of him and of course said something to her "oh he’s > fine".  They would also leave him on the couch sitting by himself.  When he > was about 4 months old his mother had him in a car seat (unbuckled) and set > him up on the kitchen counter – then she went outside for a smoke.  He > somehow tipped the car seat and fell to the floor.  Thank God he didn’t > have anything more than a bruise.  Yesterday I talked to her and she was > thinking about taking her son to the doctor.  His dad had set him in a > chair at the table and he had fallen off and hit his head on the vacumn > cleaner right below the table.  She has also said to me that she lets him > climb up the first landing of their stair case.   I have been friends with > this woman for years.  She is even a year older than me and really wanted > this baby.  I’ve seen both of the parents around this child and he seems > very much loved.  Could both these people really be so stupid?

 > I watch my son like a hawk. One time when my son  was two weeks old I laid > him on the couch and went in the other room to get something – THUMP – he > some how had rolled off of the couch at 2 weeks! That taught me a very good > lesson and now I make sure he cannot climb unsupervised (up onto the couch, > etc).  She actually had the nerve to mention she thought my son needed more > attention (she is SAH I am WM).  I’ve heard mention that a pediatrician > once said a little child without a couple minor bruises is a child who is > being overprotected.  I understood the drs. statement and do agree with it > and my son always has a tiny bruise on his shin just from being an active > 13 month old baby boy.  I told my husband about our friends baby and > > said I should call CPS because that child isn’t being taken proper care of > (my dh is a little bit of an extremist).  What do you other  parents think? >I don’t feel personally that you should call the authorities yet.  Mention how you feel to her first or again if you have.  Some of us take more risks as a parent and have different parenting styles.  She sounds very relaxed and you a little uptight.  

Kids are always knocking themselves around, it’s part of learning, but she does need to learn that putting him on the floor is a safer place than on the bench or another place he could fall.  It is just common sense, but I don’t think it makes her a bad parent – enough to call in the authorities anyway. P.S. – At 8 and a half months both my sons could climb the whole stair case themselves with us supervising behind of course.

Response:

You say they mean well, but they don’t seem to have a lot of common sense.   Time for a big heart-to-heart over a virtual glass of wine (you say they are 1000 miles away).  No one wants to hear they are a deficient parent, but I’ve always been thankful when a knowing friend clues me in when something I’m doing wrong or could do something better.  If my friend cares for me and my children, I expect nothing less than for them to help me this way. That said, they sound like they need a good parenting class.  Our YMCA and area hospitals offer these classes which are part "how to", part support group. There are many excellent home baby-proofing books which you can send (try amazon.com) Mail off a bunch of electrical outlet plugs for the kid’s half year birthday.  If you don’t want to be confrontational about your fears, you could say someone else gave you a "safety first" kit and you love their kid so much you thought you could copy the gift giving idea.   Above all, become their mentor.  Call them weekly to kvetch about all the mischief you kid(s) gets into.  I learned a lot from a cousin whose baby is a few months older than mine, and it is a great help.  We talk about things I never dreamed of and she never criticizes my goof-ups. Good luck, mhn

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->A very good friend of mine who lives 1000 miles away came for a visit with >her husband and 8 month old son.  Their son is 3 months younger than mine. > When my friend was visiting they would set their son on the counter in the >kitchen when they were fixing him a meal.  I freaked and immediately went >over and stood in front of him and of course said something to her "oh he’s >fine".  They would also leave him on the couch sitting by himself.  When he >was about 4 months old his mother had him in a car seat (unbuckled) and set >him up on the kitchen counter – then she went outside for a smoke.  He >somehow tipped the car seat and fell to the floor.  Thank God he didn’t >have anything more than a bruise.  Yesterday I talked to her and she was >thinking about taking her son to the doctor.  His dad had set him in a >chair at the table and he had fallen off and hit his head on the vacumn >cleaner right below the table.  She has also said to me that she lets him >climb up the first landing of their stair case.   I have been friends with >this woman for years.  She is even a year older than me and really wanted >this baby.  I’ve seen both of the parents around this child and he seems >very much loved.  Could both these people really be so stupid? >I watch my son like a hawk. One time when my son  was two weeks old I laid >him on the couch and went in the other room to get something – THUMP – he >some how had rolled off of the couch at 2 weeks! That taught me a very good >lesson and now I make sure he cannot climb unsupervised (up onto the couch, >etc).  She actually had the nerve to mention she thought my son needed more >attention (she is SAH I am WM).  I’ve heard mention that a pediatrician >once said a little child without a couple minor bruises is a child who is >being overprotected.  I understood the drs. statement and do agree with it >and my son always has a tiny bruise on his shin just from being an active >13 month old baby boy.  I told my husband about our friends baby and he >said I should call CPS because that child isn’t being taken proper care of >(my dh is a little bit of an extremist).  What do you other  parents think? >Hello!!

        I can definetly understand your concern, but remember if you do say something…you are risking some very hurt feelings and maybe even a friendship.  Best Wishes!! Jodi & Hannah Kathryn

Response:

There’s nothing you can say other than one time she’ll take her son to the emergency room – explain what happened and they may deem her unfit because she doesn’t "prevent" these types of injuries.  This could be some type of "neglect" if you will. Christine

Response:

I agree with you, there is a serious problem.  When you discuss this with them (not just in passing), what is their response?  I know someone who is similar.  Her daughter has survived to the age of 6 so far, but only by sheer luck.  We have talked and tried to explain to no avail.  Now, we just don’t let the problems happen around us and keep our fingers crossed for the rest of the time.  Good luck. Michelle

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > A very good friend of mine who lives 1000 miles away came for a visit with > her husband and 8 month old son.  Their son is 3 months younger than mine. >  When my friend was visiting they would set their son on the counter in the > kitchen when they were fixing him a meal.  I freaked and immediately went > over and stood in front of him and of course said something to her "oh he’s > fine".  They would also leave him on the couch sitting by himself.  When he > was about 4 months old his mother had him in a car seat (unbuckled) and set > him up on the kitchen counter – then she went outside for a smoke.  He > somehow tipped the car seat and fell to the floor.  Thank God he didn’t > have anything more than a bruise.  Yesterday I talked to her and she was > thinking about taking her son to the doctor.  His dad had set him in a > chair at the table and he had fallen off and hit his head on the vacumn > cleaner right below the table.  She has also said to me that she lets him > climb up the first landing of their stair case.   I have been friends with > this woman for years.  She is even a year older than me and really wanted > this baby.  I’ve seen both of the parents around this child and he seems > very much loved.  Could both these people really be so stupid? > I watch my son like a hawk. One time when my son  was two weeks old I laid > him on the couch and went in the other room to get something – THUMP – he > some how had rolled off of the couch at 2 weeks! That taught me a very good > lesson and now I make sure he cannot climb unsupervised (up onto the couch, > etc).  She actually had the nerve to mention she thought my son needed more > attention (she is SAH I am WM).  I’ve heard mention that a pediatrician > once said a little child without a couple minor bruises is a child who is > being overprotected.  I understood the drs. statement and do agree with it > and my son always has a tiny bruise on his shin just from being an active > 13 month old baby boy.  I told my husband about our friends baby and he > said I should call CPS because that child isn’t being taken proper care of > (my dh is a little bit of an extremist).  What do you other  parents think?

I think I’d probably call CPS, simply because it doesn’t sound like anything less will actually get through to these people that they’re endangering their son’s life. Look at it this way — if you call, at least you’ve tried to help this little boy, but how will you feel if you *don’t* call, and something horrible happens? I, personally, would have a very hard time living with myself. –Summer

Response:

A very good friend of mine who lives 1000 miles away came for a visit with her husband and 8 month old son.  Their son is 3 months younger than mine.  When my friend was visiting they would set their son on the counter in the kitchen when they were fixing him a meal.  I freaked and immediately went over and stood in front of him and of course said something to her "oh he’s fine".  They would also leave him on the couch sitting by himself.  When he was about 4 months old his mother had him in a car seat (unbuckled) and set him up on the kitchen counter – then she went outside for a smoke.  He somehow tipped the car seat and fell to the floor.  Thank God he didn’t have anything more than a bruise.  Yesterday I talked to her and she was thinking about taking her son to the doctor.  His dad had set him in a chair at the table and he had fallen off and hit his head on the vacumn cleaner right below the table.  She has also said to me that she lets him climb up the first landing of their stair case.   I have been friends with this woman for years.  She is even a year older than me and really wanted this baby.  I’ve seen both of the parents around this child and he seems very much loved.  Could both these people really be so stupid? I watch my son like a hawk. One time when my son  was two weeks old I laid him on the couch and went in the other room to get something – THUMP – he some how had rolled off of the couch at 2 weeks! That taught me a very good lesson and now I make sure he cannot climb unsupervised (up onto the couch, etc).  She actually had the nerve to mention she thought my son needed more attention (she is SAH I am WM).  I’ve heard mention that a pediatrician once said a little child without a couple minor bruises is a child who is being overprotected.  I understood the drs. statement and do agree with it and my son always has a tiny bruise on his shin just from being an active 13 month old baby boy.  I told my husband about our friends baby and he said I should call CPS because that child isn’t being taken proper care of (my dh is a little bit of an extremist).  What do you other  parents think?

Response:

Question:

=>Richard, => =>It’s amazing how circular the arguments become when the "cohort" reuses =>the same tired tactics over and over agin in a lame attempt to bolster =>their position. Fortunately the anti-spank lobby has tactics which are largely supported by the weight of clinical research evidence. Did you catch the last threats greg makes. You accuse me of making threats, then don’t name the threat. How can I possibly respond? Typical of our =>journalist and just one of the many problems that the media helped create =>in their lust for sales. Perhaps the same lust that drives authors like Dobson to write books like "Dare To Discipline", that advocate things like the use of the neckpinch or "Spock hold" to force children into "submission". He doesn’t write this stuff for the good of humankind, you know. If he was so altruistic, he would give the books away rather than turning a profit on them. If greg would go back and check the old posts he =>would even be embarrassed to find older "cohort" members using the same =>claims he is now posting for the first time. I love the way he uses their =>tired old credibility threat. He still claims that if C.P. laws are =>changed practitioners and families (yes, and children) won’t suffer. Yep, I still claim that. And the evidence supports it.

Response:

Richard, It’s amazing how circular the arguments become when the "cohort" reuses the same tired tactics over and over agin in a lame attempt to bolster their position. Did you catch the last threats greg makes. Typical of our journalist and just one of the many problems that the media helped create in their lust for sales. If greg would go back and check the old posts he would even be embarrassed to find older "cohort" members using the same claims he is now posting for the first time. I love the way he uses their tired old credibility threat. He still claims that if C.P. laws are changed practitioners and families (yes, and children) won’t suffer. Keep giving him hell Richard! Non-spanker by choice, Chris C. Austin, TX – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Oh, you mean like self-defense. Or keeping kids from hurting each other. > Then use whatever force is "reasonably necessary"  not to resort to > spanking/swatting/hurting/paddlng/ice-water/"Spock holds" in the first > instance. keep a child from hurting themselves? Yes, take them by the > hand, away from the danger so they do not get hurt. You would advocate > spanking/swatting/hurting/paddlng/ice-water/"Spock holds" against a child > to keep them from hurting themselves. What a glowing contradiction in > terms, my friend! > =>He’ll distort the truth to reach his goal!

Response:

=>Richard, => =>I think we have a new "Ivan" on this N.G. it’s funny that whenever they =>can’t refute in true debate style they revert to name calling (of course =>I’m talking about our new "Ivan"-Greg). As for the name-callin, Chris, my name is Greg, stop calling me Ivan (though I have nothing against the name itself, it’s not mine). Stop namecalling! He keeps posting to me and I =>haven’t even responded to him lately. I only reply to posts and email. If you had a problem with me answering your email, why not talk to me directly.  He acts as if he understands =>correlational data, but continues to claim that there is a direct =>relationship (which any first year grad student knows that, in Fox, Borg =>and other expert works, correlation does not imply causation). Further if =>he knew anything about Qualitative research he would not dismiss case =>studies so easily. He could read the classic Qualitative texts to get a =>better idea like Denzin & Lincoln, Guba or look up experts like Lyman, =>Hamilton, Michele Fine, etc..who use this format quite often, but he =>prefers to keep his blinders on. I took the blinders off – that’s why I accept ALL the data. It just so happens that the preponderance of data supports the non-spanking position. BTW, I never pretended to be something I’m not. I’m a parent, and have extensive background in *pure* research, not clinical research. I also have a healthy scepticism of *all* sources, based on 16 years as a journalist. Chris, what are your credentials? You bandy a lot of big words, bu tell me who you are and what your experience is in clinical research. It could help your credibility dramatically, because it’s suffering now. As for the Strauss studies (and the =>others) he assumes we haven’t already debated the data and posted the =>critics responses (Richard-I believe you did an excellent job with this in =>an earlier post which he discounts in his rhetoric). The rhetoric you speak of came from Richard, not I. He quoted a study done by doctors emplyed by a pro-spanking outfit that we all know very well. When these reviewers of data (not researchers of evidence) leave their current employer, I’ll give their work more credibility. When Greg can’t come =>up with a legitimate response he reverts to name calling and threats like =>"you should be glad your far away" (oh I’m so scared-what a hypocrite =>pretending to be non-violent and then posting such garbage-typical of the =>"cohort" and wannabees). ***Chris, I believe you crossed the legal line on libel here. What I said was, I am *glad to live so far away from that person* since I believed his ideas to be dangerous. If this was an intentional misunderstanding on your part, be prepard for a libel suit. I won’t accept lies about my character being published on a worldwide forum.  If he chooses to ignore Dilulio (Brookings Inst. =>& Princeton Univ.) as well as the others that is his choice, but he =>shouldn’ try to pass himself off as a pseudo-expert on anything. I’m *not* a pseudo-anything. In fact, I’m a 100-percent decent human being (well, 99.99) who has sen the evidence and it supports a non-spanking position. This is why I take this position with a clear conscience. Please post your credentials here. => =>He, like many on this N.G. would like to see any form of Corporal =>Punishment outlawed (standard "cohort" propaganda). Yes. Re: "cohort", I have no idea what you mean by this. This would put anyone =>at risk who has ever had to work with children (breaking up fights, =>keeping a child from hurting themselves-through a restraint or any other =>number of no-violent means). Oh, you mean like self-defense. Or keeping kids from hurting each other. Then use whatever force is "reasonably necessary"  not to resort to spanking/swatting/hurting/paddlng/ice-water/"Spock holds" in the first instance. keep a child from hurting themselves? Yes, take them by the hand, away from the danger so they do not get hurt. You would advocate spanking/swatting/hurting/paddlng/ice-water/"Spock holds" against a child to keep them from hurting themselves. What a glowing contradiction in terms, my friend! =>He’ll distort the truth to reach his goal! No, I uphold truth. What evidence can you show here that I have lied? You say I lie without posting an example? If I did I will retract what was said. But post it so I can see. If you cant, then stop the personal attacks. =>Yes positive, non-violent parenting should be everyones goal but if they =>fall short should they be punished? No, they should be disciplined in a non-violent way. If they’re falling short, there’s a reason.

Response:

=>Actually this is perfectly acceptable as a qualitative case study and if =>enough of them are used a trend can be interpreted (by using programs like =>N.U.D.I.S.T.)-CDC =>> I’m dubious of your statistical ananlysis here, Lynn, since you provide no =>> actual figures to back it up.How many indictments were laid, and how many =>> succeeded? Were there any malicious prosecution suits after the ones that =>> failed? How many of these succeeded? As for the last part of your =>> paragraph, I worked 16 years in the electronic media – I know that the =>> successful ones would NOT be big news, but of course, the ones that failed =>> would. But I’d be interested in seeing your figures. =>>   Well Chris, perhaps a trend could be interpreted if the figures were presented. You’re trying the oldest one in the book again – the bull-poop baffles brains line. Doesn’t cut it here,Chris, because most of us are more sophisticated than that. Good Luck with the Parenting thing. . . Greg Lubianetzky Father to the world’s 2 Greatest Kids!

Response:

Richard, I think we have a new "Ivan" on this N.G. it’s funny that whenever they can’t refute in true debate style they revert to name calling (of course I’m talking about our new "Ivan"-Greg). He keeps posting to me and I haven’t even responded to him lately. He acts as if he understands correlational data, but continues to claim that there is a direct relationship (which any first year grad student knows that, in Fox, Borg and other expert works, correlation does not imply causation). Further if he knew anything about Qualitative research he would not dismiss case studies so easily. He could read the classic Qualitative texts to get a better idea like Denzin & Lincoln, Guba or look up experts like Lyman, Hamilton, Michele Fine, etc..who use this format quite often, but he prefers to keep his blinders on. As for the Strauss studies (and the others) he assumes we haven’t already debated the data and posted the critics responses (Richard-I believe you did an excellent job with this in an earlier post which he discounts in his rhetoric). When Greg can’t come up with a legitimate response he reverts to name calling and threats like "you should be glad your far away" (oh I’m so scared-what a hypocrite pretending to be non-violent and then posting such garbage-typical of the "cohort" and wannabees). If he chooses to ignore Dilulio (Brookings Inst. & Princeton Univ.) as well as the others that is his choice, but he shouldn’ try to pass himself off as a pseudo-expert on anything. He, like many on this N.G. would like to see any form of Corporal Punishment outlawed (standard "cohort" propaganda). This would put anyone at risk who has ever had to work with children (breaking up fights, keeping a child from hurting themselves-through a restraint or any other number of no-violent means). He’ll distort the truth to reach his goal! Yes positive, non-violent parenting should be everyones goal but if they fall short should they be punished? Non-spanker, Chris C. Austin, TX

Response:

 This is the danger of using     =>> > statistics to shore up your argument, especially when people unfamiliar     =>> > with the methodology can be coerced to follow something that seems to make     =>> > sense but doesn’t cut it mathematically.   =>   =>A good reason to cast a dubious eye on *all* statistics, particularly if they are     =>published to support some sort of public policy change or other agenda.   I could not agree more, Lynn, with the first part of your statement. Frankly, the reason they’re published does not change my scepticism one way or the other. =>> >     =>> > You’re right. But I’ve seen prospankers take figures like this (and I     =>> > don’t embrace the 165% figure for a minute) and say it’s the new     =>> > liberalism and families who don’t spank as responsible for any perceived     =>> > crime increase. What a huge leap of faith to that conclusion.     =>   =>It hasn’t been a standard line on this forum. I have heard it too, but that is not what     =>most of those of us here are saying.   Do a search back, Lynn. DejaNews will show you the history of this standard line, and it has been pretty standard. =>And as those laws go into effect, they look ever more dubious. So far, most of such     =>indictments here have failed, except to further disrupt families who are trying to deal     =>with some problem; in most of those which have been publicized here the parent has been     =>found, ultimately, not to have been at fault.   I’m dubious of your statistical ananlysis here, Lynn, since you provide no actual figures to back it up.How many indictments were laid, and how many succeeded? Were there any malicious prosecution suits after the ones that failed? How many of these succeeded? As for the last part of your paragraph, I worked 16 years in the electronic media – I know that the successful ones would NOT be big news, but of course, the ones that failed would. But I’d be interested in seeing your figures. =>   =>The most recent is of a woman indicted for non-supervision of her 8th grade child, who     =>has been absent from school for 25 days. The woman was divorced about a year ago, works     =>full time, and stated that her daughter had become depressed after the divorce, and that     =>the depression had become noticeably worse on the traffic death of a close friend on the     =>first day of school. Sounds like tha fmily had a really bad go of it. See why this kind of story makes good press?  She has begun counseling, and her mother (whose "record" is     =>otherwise defined as "spotless") said that this indictment has compounded her daughter’s     =>distress. She also said that she had more than enough to deal with without this – which     =>seems an understatement to me.   So if, for example, her husband was indicted for wife battering, should he be immune from prosecution because the indictment might compound her daughter’s distress? This I’m afraid is a non-argument. Family interference is often taken into account in sentencing, but not when laying charges or levelling convictions. =>   =>Well, maybe not, but is it constructive? Is this already distressed child now trying to     =>cope with guilt stemming from her mother’s arrest? Has this family been helped?   Heck, if Mommy breaks the law, she must be charged, and if guilty convicted. Do we simply give her immunity to prosecution just in case we might upset the child? What message does that then give to the kid? =>   =>Given that the child is already in counseling, I would guess that the mother will not be     =>convicted. But surely this sort of indictment can not by the wildest stretch of     =>imagination be described as "family support".   Quite the contrary. The law was put in place to be implemented when there was some detriment being suffered by the child. This is in support of the child. The mother initiated non-support of the family be her blatant disregard for the law designed to protect her daughter. Do we forego that support for one of the youngest member of our society just so Mommy won’t be upset by the process? Good Luck with the Parenting thing. . . Greg Lubianetzky Father to the world’s 2 Greatest Kids!

Response:

Actually this is perfectly acceptable as a qualitative case study and if enough of them are used a trend can be interpreted (by using programs like N.U.D.I.S.T.)-CDC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m dubious of your statistical ananlysis here, Lynn, since you provide no > actual figures to back it up.How many indictments were laid, and how many > succeeded? Were there any malicious prosecution suits after the ones that > failed? How many of these succeeded? As for the last part of your > paragraph, I worked 16 years in the electronic media – I know that the > successful ones would NOT be big news, but of course, the ones that failed > would. But I’d be interested in seeing your figures. > Greg Lubianetzky

Response:

=>> The numbers of violent crimes among some groups of adolescents seems to be =>> on the increase. But violent behaviour among kids is *not* growing, =>> generally speaking. =>> =>Richard, => =>This is yet another good example of a "cohort" wannabee understating the =>real problem (165% increase in violence ages 13-17). Yup, and if you carry these numbers to the *general* youth population as I indicated, the increase is hardly noticable. These continued =>distortions are of more concern to me than the issue they are advancing. =>This attitude is pervasive throughout our country and is certainly one of =>the biggest problems that society faces (I believe we should call it =>denial) As in the denial of the evidence that spanking/swatting/hurting/"Spock holds" produces detrimental effects in childhood emotional development? Check out these sources, Chris. Corporal punishment of adolescents by parents: a risk factor in the epidemiology of depression, suicide, alcohol abuse, child abuse, and wife beating. Straus MA; Kantor GK. Family Research Laboratory, University of New Hampshire, 126 Horton Social Science Center, Durham 03824. Adolescence, 29: 115, 1994 Fall, 543-61 Self-reports of corporal punishment by Xhosa children from broken and intact families and their academic achievement. Author Cherian VI. Department of Educational Research, University of Transkei, South Africa. Psychol Rep, 74: 3 Pt 1, 1994 Jun, 867-74 Corporal and capital punishment of juveniles. Author Frazier HC Department of Criminal Justice, Central State University, Warrensburg, MO 64093. Med Law, 9: 3, 1990, 996-1004 Spare the rod and spoil the child. Is this a sensible justification for the use of punishment in child rearing? Carey TA. Anglican Church Grammar School, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. Child Abuse Negl, 18: 12, 1994 Dec, 1005-10 Exposure to violence and victimization and depression, hopelessness, and purpose in life among adolescents living in and around public housing. DuRant RH; Getts A; Cadenhead C; Emans SJ; Woods ER Division of Adolescent/Young Adult Medicine, Children’s Hospital, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA.  J Dev Behav Pediatr, 16: 4, 1995 Aug, 233-7 I found these in a matter of a few hours. I’ll do better in the future, too. . To continue to shut our eyes and to manipulate the data the way =>Greg has should be the real crime, punishable (in his words) by jailing. Chris, you are a scary person. I’m glad you live far, far away from me. =>The breach is far more serious than parents who have spanked once or twice =>in their lifetime (at least they are trying to stop an undesirable =>behavior). There are better ways to stop undesirable behaviours. The research above shows how bad spanking/swatting/hurting/"Spock holds" is in relation to emotional development of children. =>Keep up the good work Richard. The truth is important keep getting it out =>(before it’s to late for families/society. Yes, maybe Richard will be prompted by my post to post some "truth" of his own in the form of research supporting the positive aspects of corporal punishment or spanking/swatting/hurting/"Spock holds". Good Luck with the Parenting thing. . . Greg Lubianetzky Father to the world’s 2 Greatest Kids!

Response:

Chris C said:   > =>Greg,     > =>     > =>Why do you intentionally understate the problem and distort Richards     > =>concerns. I believe the author (who is quite well published and recognized     > =>as a top expert) stated that the crime rate is under reported and he     > =>provides proof. Where is yours?     Greg said:   > Hold on here.  I saw no proof in that post. I’m sceptical of all analyses     > of crime statistics unless I see the stats themselves. Statistical     > methodology can vary greatly – my methods could result in a totally     > different conclusion than someone else’s. This is the danger of using     > statistics to shore up your argument, especially when people unfamiliar     > with the methodology can be coerced to follow something that seems to make     > sense but doesn’t cut it mathematically.  

A good reason to cast a dubious eye on *all* statistics, particularly if they are     published to support some sort of public policy change or other agenda.   >  Richard in his post was referring to the     > =>lifers comment on other criminals not having any caring disciplinarians in     > =>their lives not that they had or hadn’t been paddled. And I also believe     > =>the author stated that crime in the 13-17 age group had increased not just     > =>a little but 165% (check the article). Does this endorse a correlation     > =>between the lack of spanking and increased crime? No more or less than     > =>some of the other posts I’ve read here.     > You’re right. But I’ve seen prospankers take figures like this (and I     > don’t embrace the 165% figure for a minute) and say it’s the new     > liberalism and families who don’t spank as responsible for any perceived     > crime increase. What a huge leap of faith to that conclusion.    

It hasn’t been a standard line on this forum. I have heard it too, but that is not what     most of those of us here are saying.   Chris C:   >  While spanking shouldn’t be used     > =>to discipline children further laws to restrict parental authority are not     > =>needed especially as long as we are prosecuting parents for their teens     > =>crimes.  

And as those laws go into effect, they look ever more dubious. So far, most of such     indictments here have failed, except to further disrupt families who are trying to deal     with some problem; in most of those which have been publicized here the parent has been     found, ultimately, not to have been at fault.   The most recent is of a woman indicted for non-supervision of her 8th grade child, who     has been absent from school for 25 days. The woman was divorced about a year ago, works     full time, and stated that her daughter had become depressed after the divorce, and that     the depression had become noticeably worse on the traffic death of a close friend on the     first day of school. She has begun counseling, and her mother (whose "record" is     otherwise defined as "spotless") said that this indictment has compounded her daughter’s     distress. She also said that she had more than enough to deal with without this – which     seems an understatement to me.   If convicted, she will receive only a warning. However, a second conviction could lead     to parenting classes or a fine of $1000.   A police representative is quoted as saying "Obviously this is not a rape; this is not a     murder, but it’s a violation. We didn’t want to cite anybody. We just want the child in     school. We don’t think it’s overkill".   Well, maybe not, but is it constructive? Is this already distressed child now trying to     cope with guilt stemming from her mother’s arrest? Has this family been helped?   Given that the child is already in counseling, I would guess that the mother will not be     convicted. But surely this sort of indictment can not by the wildest stretch of     imagination be described as "family support".   I wish them luck. I suspect they will need it.   Lynn Aun Aprendo                     *****                    Team OS/2

Response:

> The numbers of violent crimes among some groups of adolescents seems to be > on the increase. But violent behaviour among kids is *not* growing, > generally speaking.

Richard, This is yet another good example of a "cohort" wannabee understating the real problem (165% increase in violence ages 13-17). These continued distortions are of more concern to me than the issue they are advancing. This attitude is pervasive throughout our country and is certainly one of the biggest problems that society faces (I believe we should call it denial). To continue to shut our eyes and to manipulate the data the way Greg has should be the real crime, punishable (in his words) by jailing. The breach is far more serious than parents who have spanked once or twice in their lifetime (at least they are trying to stop an undesirable behavior). Keep up the good work Richard. The truth is important keep getting it out (before it’s to late for families/society. Non-spanker, Chris C. Austin, TX – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Good Luck with the Parenting thing. . . > Greg Lubianetzky > Father to the world’s 2 Greatest Kids!

Response:

=>> =>> Why not lets wipe off some of the really useless laws from the books so =>> there’s room to enforce really necessary ones, like anti-abuse laws that =>> would include spanking/swatting/hurting/"Spock holds" for punishment. =>> =>> Good Luck with the Parenting thing. . . =>> Greg Lubianetzky =>> Father to the world’s 2 Greatest Kids! => =>Greg, => =>You’d be locking up 90% of the parents in America today Greg, and in my =>opinion you’d be locking up the first line of defense against undisciplined =>children growing into undisciplined adults. Give adults some credit. If fines/jail were an option for prosecution of spanking/swatting/hurting/"Spock holds" users, adults would find other ways to discipline. Just like us non-spankers have, with great success I might add. I believe that Chris is anti-spank =>and I respect that fact. I would not wish to lock him up if I disagreed with his =>stance. So if Jeffrey Dahmer took up a position in favour of murder, you would defer. You wouldn’t want to lock him up just because you disagreed with his stance, after all. For one thing, I believe it is possible for SOME children, to be effectively =>disciplined without spanking. Crime among our youths is increasing, and its policies =>like the one you espouse, which either blames the parents, or sets childrens hearts =>and attitudes against their parents that is contributing. You are telling 90% of the =>children that their parents are wrong, and that they are doing something evil. Many people =>with your opinion reside in responsible positions of authority with our kids. Kids are now =>figuring ways to subvert their parents authority by threatening to call Social Services on =>their own parents. You fly in the face of your own argument. You say 90-percent of families use spanking at some point in their child’s lives. I totally agree this figure has basis in good evidence. But wait. Your manipulative kids, subverting authority at every turn, who are inflating crime rates, are growing up in a world LARGELY MADE UP OF FAMILIES WHO SPANK. We say, let’s give the non-spanking thing a spin. Hell, it can’t do any worse than what *your* statistics show. What kid of sick relationships are you espousing for the 90% of families =>which don’t agree with your view? I’m espousing loveing, caring relationships that eliminate all violent spanking/swatting/hurting/"Spock holds" from the disciplinary chain. Far more damage is being done subtly to our children and =>families by attitudes and policies like yours than any abuse that might be prevented. SHOW ME, SHOW ME, SHOW ME. Come on, Richard. Put up or shut up. ONE teeny weeny little study that backs up your position. A hint of empirical data to hang your hat on. Please. Pretty please.  I would =>never try to tell your children, GREG, that what you were doing in rearing them was wrong. Even =>though I may disagree with it. You just did. You said non-spanking attitudes contribute to increasing crime rates (with no data of course). Couple other places in this post as well. Crime stats are up, and they are not going to go down by arresting =>parents who use spanking/swatting/hurting/"Spock holds" for punishment. Says who? Good Luck with the Parenting thing. . . Greg Lubianetzky Father to the world’s 2 Greatest Kids!

Response:

=>   =>Greg, do you not find the growing violence among adolescents to be greatly     =>disturbing?   Lynn, what I find disturbing is the incessant media misreporting of the figures. It’s one of the reasons I left the popular media after 16 years as a police reporter. The facts show that, generally speaking, some * violent* crime rates are up. These violent crimes are largely gang-related, ie gang-on-gang hits, drive-bys, rumbles. Also, the great preponderance of the vionelt crimes are comitted by re-offenders, 2nd and 3rd and 4th-time convicts. I’m not saying I like this anymore than anyone else. But the picture painted by the media is one of good kids every second door on every block turning into carjacking, housebreaking thugs. It’s just *not* true. Petty crimes in many areas are down dramatically, like break and enters and robberies. Do some honest checking of the facts. =>Rather than wrestling over whose statistics are bent which way, surely it would be     =>more productive to address the problem. If you look at *all* the statistics, or at     =>least a broad selection of the offerings, the one thing which no one seems to dispute     =>is that *violent* behaviour among these kids really is growing, even when the figures     =>show reduction in the adolescent crime rate. The numbers of violent crimes among some groups of adolescents seems to be on the increase. But violent behaviour among kids is *not* growing, generally speaking. Is this not an issue which warrants     =>*everyone’s* concern?   It’s not an issue that warrants my support of spanking/swatting/hurting/"Spock holds" as punitive measures. In fact, as Richard has just pointed out in another post today, 90-percent of all families use spanking on their kids some time in their lives. I submit this relates to the increase in violent crime, given the studies that show a relationship between corporal punishment in the home to low self-esteem, violent tendencies later in life. So let’s all try non-spanking, shall we? Good Luck with the Parenting thing. . . Greg Lubianetzky Father to the world’s 2 Greatest Kids!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > =>> I spent 16 years in a position where I was analyzing all kinds of crime > =>> statistics (from police in Southern Ontario including Toronto area). The > =>> reality is, while violent crime in teens has seen some increases, overall > =>> crime stats especially when related to population totals are down. > => > =>Greg, > => > =>Why do you intentionally understate the problem and distort Richards > =>concerns. I believe the author (who is quite well published and recognized > =>as a top expert) stated that the crime rate is under reported and he > =>provides proof. Where is yours? > Hold on here.  I saw no proof in that post. I’m sceptical of all analyses > of crime statistics unless I see the stats themselves. Statistical > methodology can vary greatly – my methods could result in a totally > different conclusion than someone else’s. This is the danger of using > statistics to shore up your argument, especially when people unfamiliar > with the methodology can be coerced to follow something that seems to make > sense but doesn’t cut it mathematically. >  Richard in his post was referring to the > =>lifers comment on other criminals not having any caring disciplinarians in > =>their lives not that they had or hadn’t been paddled. And I also believe > =>the author stated that crime in the 13-17 age group had increased not just > =>a little but 165% (check the article). Does this endorse a correlation > =>between the lack of spanking and increased crime? No more or less than > =>some of the other posts I’ve read here. > You’re right. But I’ve seen prospankers take figures like this (and I > don’t embrace the 165% figure for a minute) and say it’s the new > liberalism and families who don’t spank as responsible for any perceived > crime increase. What a huge leap of faith to that conclusion. >  While spanking shouldn’t be used > =>to discipline children further laws to restrict parental authority are not > =>needed especially as long as we are prosecuting parents for their teens > =>crimes. > Why not lets wipe off some of the really useless laws from the books so > there’s room to enforce really necessary ones, like anti-abuse laws that > would include spanking/swatting/hurting/"Spock holds" for punishment. > Good Luck with the Parenting thing. . . > Greg Lubianetzky > Father to the world’s 2 Greatest Kids!

Greg, You’d be locking up 90% of the parents in America today Greg, and in my opinion you’d be locking up the first line of defense against undisciplined children growing into undisciplined adults. I believe that Chris is anti-spank and I respect that fact. I would not wish to lock him up if I disagreed with his stance. For one thing, I believe it is possible for SOME children, to be effectively disciplined without spanking. Crime among our youths is increasing, and its policies like the one you espouse, which either blames the parents, or sets childrens hearts and attitudes against their parents that is contributing. You are telling 90% of the children that their parents are wrong, and that they are doing something evil. Many people with your opinion reside in responsible positions of authority with our kids. Kids are now figuring ways to subvert their parents authority by threatening to call Social Services on their own parents. What kid of sick relationships are you espousing for the 90% of families which don’t agree with your view? Far more damage is being done subtly to our children and families by attitudes and policies like yours than any abuse that might be prevented. I would never try to tell your children, GREG, that what you were doing in rearing them was wrong. Even though I may disagree with it. Crime stats are up, and they are not going to go down by arresting parents who use spanking/swatting/hurting/"Spock holds" for punishment. Richard

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->=Greg,     >=     >=You may want to look at the article again. It certainly criticizes the     >=current direction our country is headed especially with "revolving door     >=justice" the author refers to. I’ve worked in centers that demonstrate     >=this point well and it is very scary thinking that the teens we worked     >=with may be out there hunting you and yours as their next victims!     > Chris;     > I agree with this point wholeheartedly, and he did make it in the article.     > What I meant by the last post was that often, pro-spankers attempt to use     > rapidly escalating crime statistics as a reason to hit. In fact, there is     > no overall, sweeping crime explosion; it’s a media hype. Don’t read the     > stories or watch the TV reports for this conclusion. Read the statistics.     > I spent 16 years in a position where I was analyzing all kinds of crime     > statistics (from police in Southern Ontario including Toronto area). The     > reality is, while violent crime in teens has seen some increases, overall     > crime stats especially when related to population totals are down.     > Good Luck with the Parenting thing. . .    

Greg, do you not find the growing violence among adolescents to be greatly     disturbing?   This has been said before, that in general crime is down, and the implication     seems to be that the increase in violence among adolescents is not terribly     relevant.   I find both things *very* disturbing, first that this particular sort of violence     does seem to be growing, and that the violent behaviour is beginning with younger     and younger children, and second that it appears that no one cares to address the     problem.   Rather than wrestling over whose statistics are bent which way, surely it would be     more productive to address the problem. If you look at *all* the statistics, or at     least a broad selection of the offerings, the one thing which no one seems to dispute     is that *violent* behaviour among these kids really is growing, even when the figures     show reduction in the adolescent crime rate. Is this not an issue which warrants     *everyone’s* concern?   Lynn Aun Aprendo                     *****                    Team OS/2

Response:

Greg, Richard puts it well and I would like to add that current laws have been misused against many practitioners (teachers, therapist, etc..). I’ve posted several on this NG in the past. Last year there were over 200 reported assaults on teachers in Tennessee (these are reported cases not the cases oppressed by the administration, which has become a common practice in many schools). Without Corporal Punishment laws in effect these teachers and other practitioners couldn’t even defend themselves or other children from predators. I posted a case last month (in West’s Ed. Law Review) whereby an instructor broke up a fight between two students and was sued by the mother of the student who started the fight for temporarily putting her hand on the student when she refused to stop physically abusing the other student. I believe Greg that we agree that positive parenting should be used but we need to agree to disagree on the practical issues such as a law to ban C.P. Non-spanker, Chris C. Austin, TX > =>> I spent 16 years in a position where I was analyzing all kinds of crime > =>> statistics (from police in Southern Ontario including Toronto area). The > =>> reality is, while violent crime in teens has seen some increases,

overall-Greg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Greg, > You’d be locking up 90% of the parents in America today Greg, and in my > opinion you’d be locking up the first line of defense against undisciplined > children growing into undisciplined adults. I believe that Chris is anti-spank > and I respect that fact. I would not wish to lock him up if I disagreed with his > stance. For one thing, I believe it is possible for SOME children, to be effectively > disciplined without spanking. Crime among our youths is increasing, and its policies > like the one you espouse, which either blames the parents, or sets childrens hearts > and attitudes against their parents that is contributing. You are telling 90% of the > children that their parents are wrong, and that they are doing something evil. Many people > with your opinion reside in responsible positions of authority with our kids. Kids are now > figuring ways to subvert their parents authority by threatening to call Social Services on > their own parents. What kid of sick relationships are you espousing for the 90% of families > which don’t agree with your view? Far more damage is being done subtly

to our children and > families by attitudes and policies like yours than any abuse that might

be prevented. I would > never try to tell your children, GREG, that what you were doing in

rearing them was wrong. Even > though I may disagree with it. Crime stats are up, and they are not

going to go down by arresting – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> parents who use spanking/swatting/hurting/"Spock holds" for punishment. > Richard

Response:

=>> I spent 16 years in a position where I was analyzing all kinds of crime =>> statistics (from police in Southern Ontario including Toronto area). The =>> reality is, while violent crime in teens has seen some increases, overall =>> crime stats especially when related to population totals are down. => =>Greg, => =>Why do you intentionally understate the problem and distort Richards =>concerns. I believe the author (who is quite well published and recognized =>as a top expert) stated that the crime rate is under reported and he =>provides proof. Where is yours? Hold on here.  I saw no proof in that post. I’m sceptical of all analyses of crime statistics unless I see the stats themselves. Statistical methodology can vary greatly – my methods could result in a totally different conclusion than someone else’s. This is the danger of using statistics to shore up your argument, especially when people unfamiliar with the methodology can be coerced to follow something that seems to make sense but doesn’t cut it mathematically.  Richard in his post was referring to the =>lifers comment on other criminals not having any caring disciplinarians in =>their lives not that they had or hadn’t been paddled. And I also believe =>the author stated that crime in the 13-17 age group had increased not just =>a little but 165% (check the article). Does this endorse a correlation =>between the lack of spanking and increased crime? No more or less than =>some of the other posts I’ve read here. You’re right. But I’ve seen prospankers take figures like this (and I don’t embrace the 165% figure for a minute) and say it’s the new liberalism and families who don’t spank as responsible for any perceived crime increase. What a huge leap of faith to that conclusion.  While spanking shouldn’t be used =>to discipline children further laws to restrict parental authority are not =>needed especially as long as we are prosecuting parents for their teens =>crimes. Why not lets wipe off some of the really useless laws from the books so there’s room to enforce really necessary ones, like anti-abuse laws that would include spanking/swatting/hurting/"Spock holds" for punishment. Good Luck with the Parenting thing. . . Greg Lubianetzky Father to the world’s 2 Greatest Kids!

Response:

>=Greg, >= >=You may want to look at the article again. It certainly criticizes the >=current direction our country is headed especially with "revolving door >=justice" the author refers to. I’ve worked in centers that demonstrate >=this point well and it is very scary thinking that the teens we worked >=with may be out there hunting you and yours as their next victims!

Chris; I agree with this point wholeheartedly, and he did make it in the article. What I meant by the last post was that often, pro-spankers attempt to use rapidly escalating crime statistics as a reason to hit. In fact, there is no overall, sweeping crime explosion; it’s a media hype. Don’t read the stories or watch the TV reports for this conclusion. Read the statistics. I spent 16 years in a position where I was analyzing all kinds of crime statistics (from police in Southern Ontario including Toronto area). The reality is, while violent crime in teens has seen some increases, overall crime stats especially when related to population totals are down. Good Luck with the Parenting thing. . . Greg Lubianetzky Father to the world’s 2 Greatest Kids!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ><< > ><< >                            Your Statistics and Mine ><< > ><< > The following recent article is from Princeton University Professor John ><< > DiIulio of the Brookings Institute. He is considered an authority on ><< > criminal justice and has published quite a bit on the subject. >>snipped<<< ><< ><< Powerful, powerful powerful. Especially about the part where criminals admit that it ><< was a lack of a disciplinarian in their lives that broght them to where they are. Of ><< course this is not a surprise to most of us, but the elitisits will be another story. ><< ><< Very good work Chris! ><< ><< Richard

Richard, how could you be so narrow-minded that you totally subverted the point of this article to believe that this actually supports a pro-spanking position? The real point of this is to show that our growing "liberal" society today (ie. non-corporal punishers) has not resulted in a rash of first-time violent offenders across the continent. Somehow your blinders got in the way of the truth here. Good Luck with the Parenting thing. . . Greg Lubianetzky Father to the world’s 2 Greatest Kids!

Response:

Greg, You may want to look at the article again. It certainly criticizes the current direction our country is headed especially with "revolving door justice" the author refers to. I’ve worked in centers that demonstrate this point well and it is very scary thinking that the teens we worked with may be out there hunting you and yours as their next victims! Non-spanker, Chris C. Austin, TX P.S.-If you don’t believe the posters here right to the author at Princeton Univ. and ask him to clarify. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -><< Powerful, powerful powerful. Especially about the part where criminals > admit that it ><< was a lack of a disciplinarian in their lives that broght them to > where they are. Of ><< course this is not a surprise to most of us, but the elitisits will be > another story. ><< ><< Very good work Chris! ><< ><< Richard > Richard, how could you be so narrow-minded that you totally subverted the > point of this article to believe that this actually supports a > pro-spanking position? > The real point of this is to show that our growing "liberal" society today > (ie. non-corporal punishers) has not resulted in a rash of first-time > violent offenders across the continent. Somehow your blinders got in the > way of the truth here. > Good Luck with the Parenting thing. . . > Greg Lubianetzky > Father to the world’s 2 Greatest Kids!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->                            Your Statistics and Mine > The following recent article is from Princeton University Professor John > DiIulio of the Brookings Institute. He is considered an authority on > criminal justice and has published quite a bit on the subject. > We can easily match support for support and make our cases, but what it > really comes down to is what really works. In an age of "who’s the victim" > and the failure of this generation to teach children about personal > accountability/responsibility aren’t we all going to suffer. > Again I do not endorse paddling, but do feel it is wrong to punish those > families that may use some legally acceptable form of Corporal Punishment > (such as a simple restraint of a child throwing a tantrum). Enough of my > opinions here’s the recent article: >                               Crime in America >                                 It’s Going To >                                   Get Worse > David Shotkoski had always dreamed of becoming a Major League pitcher. > Early this year, he kissed his wife and young daughter good-bye and left > North Aurora, ILL., for spring training with the Atlanta Braves in West > Palm Beach, Fla. There the 30-year-old Shotkoski was taking an evening > walk when a gunman demanded his money. Shotkoski refused. Shot twice, he > managed to stagger some 300 ft. to a busy street before collapsing near > the curb. > Indicted for Shotkoski’s murder was Neal Douglas Evans, a career criminal > who, despite 13 previous convictions for robberies, burglaries, theft and > drug possession, had slip-slided past forgiving judges for years. Because > of a judicial order to relieve alleged overcrowding in Florida prisons, > Evans was on his fourth so-called conditional release when he was charged > with killing Shotkoski. > "I just don’t understand," Felicia Shotkoski said when she learned that a > habitual felon had been charged with her husband’s murder (my > comment-could this be you or someone you know?). > I sympathisize wholly with her. But after more than ten years studying > America’s criminal justice system, I understand all too well. My research > in crime statistics shows: > -Up to a third of those convicted of murder across the U.S. were on > parole, probation or some other form of release at the time they took > another person’s life (my comment-a grave enfringent of the victims Civil > Rights). > -Crime is getting more violent. Over the past three decades, your chances > of becoming a crime victim increased 280%. But your chances of becoming a > victim of violent crime increased 460%. > -The crime problem is bad enough, but demographic evidence indicates that > it’s going to get much worse. > Ordinary Americans feel that the criminal-justice system too often comes > down on the side of the offender (my comment-often making the criminal > appear as the victim). Yet an influential anti-incarceration > lobby-including organizations such as the National Council on Crime and > Delinquency and the American Civil Liberties Union-laments that our system > is too harsh (my comment-compared to what? Criminals in this country share > many rights denied else-where in the industrialized world). > Whose instincts are correct? My research has convinced me that the public > is right. Statistics on computer print-outs may not show the blood on the > sidewalk in West Palm Beach, but they confirm what people suspect about > crime: > -The latest stats on the crime rate are very misleading (my > comment-actually among teens it is still increasing). The media has played > up a three percent annual reduction during the past three years of crimes > reported to the police and FBI. It’s too early to celebrate victory. > **Crime rates are still many times higher today than the last three > decades.**Many cases go unreported and unpunished. > In 1993, for example, the total number of crimes recorded by the FBI was > 14,141,000. But the FBI uses a method of "hierarchical" counting in which > only the "most serious" criminal act in any one incident is reported (my > comment-this type of reporting has become common place but does distort > the data). If a woman is raped and her car stolen, for example, the FBI > records the rape but not the theft. > In contrast, the Justice Dept.’s Bureau of Justice Statistics conducts a > massive, ongoing survey. In ‘93, for example, more than 115,000 people in > nearly 60,000 households were interviewed for information on crime. Their > replies led to the estimate that the actual number of rapes, robberies, > assaults, burglaries and other crimes suffered by Americans in ‘93 was > 43,622,000-more than three times the FBI’s number. > Moreover, the impact of crime is even worse if you live or work in an > urban area. My hometown, Philadelphia, is proof that poor, minority and > inner-city Americans (like my grandmother, who was mugged three times) > suffer the most from crime (my comment-but are we doing anything about it > as we continue to take parental authority away). > In ‘94, Philadelphia experienced over 400 murders. More than 90% of the > victims were nonwhite. The city’s overall murder rate was 25.9 per 100,000 > residents. But in high crime neighborhoods the murder rate was four times > as high. > -Criminals are more violent. A new breed of felon is more "terrorist than > criminal," says a veteran bank robber who has spent most of his last 30 > years behind bars. In an alarming number of cases, routine property crimes > escalate into violent ones. > This past January in Atlanta, for instance, robbers who stole about $100 > in cash from two car rental agencies shot and killed three unarmed men. > **Violent crime has increased steadily over the past seven years. Well > over 100,000 murders have been committed since the start of 1990. From > ‘85-’93, while the murder rate by adults 25 and over dropped (my > comment-by FBI reports) about 20%, *it increased by 65% among > 18-24-year-olds, and soared a terrifying 165% among 14-17 year olds (my > comment-could this be because families are being stripped of their > authority as well as their responsibility to manage and teach their young > values)! > The current trend in birth rates makes it certain that a new violent crime > wave is just around the corner. Today there are some 7.5 million males > ages 14-17. By the year 2000 we will have an additional 500,000. **About > 6% of young males are responsible for half the serious crimes committed by > their age group, studies reveal. Thus, in a few years we can expect at > least 30,000 more murderers, rapist, robbers and muggers on the streets > than we have today. > **Not long ago, I asked a group of long and life-term prisoners what was > triggering the explosion of violence among these new young criminals. I > didn’t hear the conventional explanations such as poverty or joblessness. > *Instead, these hardened criminals cited the absence of people-family, > adults, teachers,preachers, coaches- who would care enough about young > males to discipline them (my comment-is it caring enough or fairly recent > laws that have taken this authority away from families while still holding > the parents legally acountable for out-of-control teens). In the vacuum, > drug dealers and "gangstarappers" serve as the role models. "I was a > bad-ass street gladiator," one prisoner told me, "but these kids are > stone-cold predators." > -Our criminal-justice system is not handing down sentences to fit the > crimes (my comment- I’ve seen some criminals rewarded in some "supposed" > detention centers, RTC’s with pools, tennis courts, well groomed baseball > fields). Most violent crimes go unreported , unprosecuted, and unpunished. > For example, in ‘92 over 6.6 million violent crimes were committed, but > just 3.3 million were reported to the police. About 641,000 led to > arrests, barely 165,000 to convictions, and only 100,000 or so to prison > sentences, which on average ended before the convict had served even half > his time behind bars. > How often have you heard or read some variant of the claim that the U.S. > has the highest incarceration  rate in the world? We have more inmates per > capita than other nations-but the appropriate measure is the rate of > incarceration relative to the number of serious crimes. Here we are > nowhere near the leader of the pack. In fact, "hard time" for hardened > criminals is rare. > Thanks to plea bargaining, hardened criminals often are able to > "customize" their sentences. More than 90% of all defendants convicted of > felonies had not gone to trial, but pleaded guilty to lesser charges. In > Dade County, Florida, police detective Evelyn Gort was shot and killed by > Wilbur Mitchell. Consider his previous record: despite nine felony > convictions, he had been permitted to plea-bargain a sentence for auto > theft down to one year and was released in less than 4 months. Had he > served the full year, he would have been in prison the night he killed > Gort. > Failing to incarcerate hardened criminals, or letting them go free too > early, means more crimes of all kinds. Those convicted of homicide who > were released from prison in ‘92 had served, on average, only 5.9 years on > sentences of 12.4 years. > Another sobering example of how the scales are tipping: In ‘91 there were > 590,000 probationers and parolees who had been convicted of a violent > crime yet were residing in our communities. At the same time how many > persons convicted of violent crimes were in prison? Only 372,000. Nearly > half of criminals with one violent felony conviction are not sentenced to > prison. > -Our prisons are not crowded with petty criminals and first time > offenders. Again and again, the anti-incarceration lobby floats the notion > that our prisons are overflowing with "first-timers" whose records show no > history of violence.

… read more »

Response:

                           Your Statistics and Mine The following recent article is from Princeton University Professor John DiIulio of the Brookings Institute. He is considered an authority on criminal justice and has published quite a bit on the subject. We can easily match support for support and make our cases, but what it really comes down to is what really works. In an age of "who’s the victim" and the failure of this generation to teach children about personal accountability/responsibility aren’t we all going to suffer. Again I do not endorse paddling, but do feel it is wrong to punish those families that may use some legally acceptable form of Corporal Punishment (such as a simple restraint of a child throwing a tantrum). Enough of my opinions here’s the recent article:                               Crime in America                                 It’s Going To                                   Get Worse David Shotkoski had always dreamed of becoming a Major League pitcher. Early this year, he kissed his wife and young daughter good-bye and left North Aurora, ILL., for spring training with the Atlanta Braves in West Palm Beach, Fla. There the 30-year-old Shotkoski was taking an evening walk when a gunman demanded his money. Shotkoski refused. Shot twice, he managed to stagger some 300 ft. to a busy street before collapsing near the curb. Indicted for Shotkoski’s murder was Neal Douglas Evans, a career criminal who, despite 13 previous convictions for robberies, burglaries, theft and drug possession, had slip-slided past forgiving judges for years. Because of a judicial order to relieve alleged overcrowding in Florida prisons, Evans was on his fourth so-called conditional release when he was charged with killing Shotkoski. "I just don’t understand," Felicia Shotkoski said when she learned that a habitual felon had been charged with her husband’s murder (my comment-could this be you or someone you know?). I sympathisize wholly with her. But after more than ten years studying America’s criminal justice system, I understand all too well. My research in crime statistics shows: -Up to a third of those convicted of murder across the U.S. were on parole, probation or some other form of release at the time they took another person’s life (my comment-a grave enfringent of the victims Civil Rights). -Crime is getting more violent. Over the past three decades, your chances of becoming a crime victim increased 280%. But your chances of becoming a victim of violent crime increased 460%. -The crime problem is bad enough, but demographic evidence indicates that it’s going to get much worse. Ordinary Americans feel that the criminal-justice system too often comes down on the side of the offender (my comment-often making the criminal appear as the victim). Yet an influential anti-incarceration lobby-including organizations such as the National Council on Crime and Delinquency and the American Civil Liberties Union-laments that our system is too harsh (my comment-compared to what? Criminals in this country share many rights denied else-where in the industrialized world). Whose instincts are correct? My research has convinced me that the public is right. Statistics on computer print-outs may not show the blood on the sidewalk in West Palm Beach, but they confirm what people suspect about crime: -The latest stats on the crime rate are very misleading (my comment-actually among teens it is still increasing). The media has played up a three percent annual reduction during the past three years of crimes reported to the police and FBI. It’s too early to celebrate victory. **Crime rates are still many times higher today than the last three decades.**Many cases go unreported and unpunished. In 1993, for example, the total number of crimes recorded by the FBI was 14,141,000. But the FBI uses a method of "hierarchical" counting in which only the "most serious" criminal act in any one incident is reported (my comment-this type of reporting has become common place but does distort the data). If a woman is raped and her car stolen, for example, the FBI records the rape but not the theft. In contrast, the Justice Dept.’s Bureau of Justice Statistics conducts a massive, ongoing survey. In ‘93, for example, more than 115,000 people in nearly 60,000 households were interviewed for information on crime. Their replies led to the estimate that the actual number of rapes, robberies, assaults, burglaries and other crimes suffered by Americans in ‘93 was 43,622,000-more than three times the FBI’s number. Moreover, the impact of crime is even worse if you live or work in an urban area. My hometown, Philadelphia, is proof that poor, minority and inner-city Americans (like my grandmother, who was mugged three times) suffer the most from crime (my comment-but are we doing anything about it as we continue to take parental authority away). In ‘94, Philadelphia experienced over 400 murders. More than 90% of the victims were nonwhite. The city’s overall murder rate was 25.9 per 100,000 residents. But in high crime neighborhoods the murder rate was four times as high. -Criminals are more violent. A new breed of felon is more "terrorist than criminal," says a veteran bank robber who has spent most of his last 30 years behind bars. In an alarming number of cases, routine property crimes escalate into violent ones. This past January in Atlanta, for instance, robbers who stole about $100 in cash from two car rental agencies shot and killed three unarmed men. **Violent crime has increased steadily over the past seven years. Well over 100,000 murders have been committed since the start of 1990. From ‘85-’93, while the murder rate by adults 25 and over dropped (my comment-by FBI reports) about 20%, *it increased by 65% among 18-24-year-olds, and soared a terrifying 165% among 14-17 year olds (my comment-could this be because families are being stripped of their authority as well as their responsibility to manage and teach their young values)! The current trend in birth rates makes it certain that a new violent crime wave is just around the corner. Today there are some 7.5 million males ages 14-17. By the year 2000 we will have an additional 500,000. **About 6% of young males are responsible for half the serious crimes committed by their age group, studies reveal. Thus, in a few years we can expect at least 30,000 more murderers, rapist, robbers and muggers on the streets than we have today. **Not long ago, I asked a group of long and life-term prisoners what was triggering the explosion of violence among these new young criminals. I didn’t hear the conventional explanations such as poverty or joblessness. *Instead, these hardened criminals cited the absence of people-family, adults, teachers,preachers, coaches- who would care enough about young males to discipline them (my comment-is it caring enough or fairly recent laws that have taken this authority away from families while still holding the parents legally acountable for out-of-control teens). In the vacuum, drug dealers and "gangstarappers" serve as the role models. "I was a bad-ass street gladiator," one prisoner told me, "but these kids are stone-cold predators." -Our criminal-justice system is not handing down sentences to fit the crimes (my comment- I’ve seen some criminals rewarded in some "supposed" detention centers, RTC’s with pools, tennis courts, well groomed baseball fields). Most violent crimes go unreported , unprosecuted, and unpunished. For example, in ‘92 over 6.6 million violent crimes were committed, but just 3.3 million were reported to the police. About 641,000 led to arrests, barely 165,000 to convictions, and only 100,000 or so to prison sentences, which on average ended before the convict had served even half his time behind bars. How often have you heard or read some variant of the claim that the U.S. has the highest incarceration  rate in the world? We have more inmates per capita than other nations-but the appropriate measure is the rate of incarceration relative to the number of serious crimes. Here we are nowhere near the leader of the pack. In fact, "hard time" for hardened criminals is rare. Thanks to plea bargaining, hardened criminals often are able to "customize" their sentences. More than 90% of all defendants convicted of felonies had not gone to trial, but pleaded guilty to lesser charges. In Dade County, Florida, police detective Evelyn Gort was shot and killed by Wilbur Mitchell. Consider his previous record: despite nine felony convictions, he had been permitted to plea-bargain a sentence for auto theft down to one year and was released in less than 4 months. Had he served the full year, he would have been in prison the night he killed Gort. Failing to incarcerate hardened criminals, or letting them go free too early, means more crimes of all kinds. Those convicted of homicide who were released from prison in ‘92 had served, on average, only 5.9 years on sentences of 12.4 years. Another sobering example of how the scales are tipping: In ‘91 there were 590,000 probationers and parolees who had been convicted of a violent crime yet were residing in our communities. At the same time how many persons convicted of violent crimes were in prison? Only 372,000. Nearly half of criminals with one violent felony conviction are not sentenced to prison. -Our prisons are not crowded with petty criminals and first time offenders. Again and again, the anti-incarceration lobby floats the notion that our prisons are overflowing with "first-timers" whose records show no history of violence. Most of these felons could be released tomorrow, it is argued, with litle harm to society. What are the facts? 94% of state prisoners have been convicted of a violent crime such as murder, rape, robbery or assault, or are repeat criminal offenders, the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics reports (my comment-this doesn’t even address the number of crimes these … read more »

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Question:

Excellent essay. Parenting classes helped me. I’ve since wished I’d known how sooner. One "social program" that would be cost effective might be more extensive parenting classes in schools. Contrary to one of my other proposals, this idea really is one that should be looked at seriously. How about it everyone? Do we e-mail the president about this one? At least we can start in our local schools. NLS

Response:

>One "social program" that would be cost effective might be more extensive >parenting classes in schools. Contrary to one of my other proposals, this >idea really is one that should be looked at seriously. How about it >everyone? Do we e-mail the president about this one? At least we can start >in our local schools. >NLS

No, I definitely don’t want the federal government deciding what a "parenting skill" is. I don’t think I have to convince very many people in this newsgroup how federal intervention has screwed up public schools. It would be best to work within your own school system where you would have more influence on the curriculum and goals of the class. Just my $.025 Stacy

Response:

Exactly!  The main reason anyone at the federal level (including the President) gets into the field of education is to make political points, NOT to effectively solve a problem or to make any real difference in the well being of a child.   Problems in ecucation need to be dealt with by parents of children being involved in the decision making process in that school district which will have an impact on the child. One thing, however, about federal action — it will move to fill vacuums that are not being taken care of by those who should be at the wheel.  SO!  PARENTS, get on the stick!!! Dr. Lee Burnham Rocky Mountain Center for Human Development Dedicated to creating material to help parents meet the developmental needs of children Free Material for Parents at Web Site:   http://www.ditell.com/~aspen Free Web Page for Residual Income:   http://www.freedomstarr.com/?BU9542867

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