Pure Parents

Question:

>Thanks Dorothy, that was helpful. I’ve read Faber & Mazlish and I like >their ideas, but proactive comes much more naturally to me than to my >husband who is more reactive by nature. In a way I think that is one of >their flaws in that they assume that anyone can just change and behave >differently and maybe this is unrealistic for some people.

I don’t think that change comes easily, but I think that a parent who *analyzes* his own style and realizes that he wants to change can.  It takes effort certainly and it takes more if he is doing out of habit what his own parents did. >He agrees with the principles when we discuss them in calmer moments >and we did talk about childrearing before we were even married, it is >just putting the ideas into practice seems hard for him…… >And your guess is right. His dad disciplined with a belt and although I >told him before we had a child that I would never allow physical >punishment (and he agreed), I think the influence of his experience is >still there. He has no bad feelings towards his parents and doesn’t >think what they did was so bad.

Interestingly, I think men often internalize abuse this way.  They make it their fault no matter what the parent did. >He always thinks I am exagerating with the safety issues but I feel >real concern because sometimes he gets distracted and doesn’t watch her >very carefully or throws her about recklessly in play. I am so scared >that if I don’t say anything something will happen and I don’t want to >have an "I told you so" issue over this. >Gillian

Well, in this case, you probably should act, not argue about it.  If you see your child in an unsafe situation take her out of it.   But remember that men do play more freely with children than women do and that it often is not as dangerous as it looks and can be valuable for them.  The child gets a freedom of movement and a sense of her capability with her body that is a good thing with the rough and tumble play dad does with her. Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >We have a two year old and we would never forbid her from splashing, > >or throwing toys on the floor (unless she was endangering someone > >else). It would be a complete exercise in futility since she would > >certainly continue to do it anyway. Not because she is defiant but > >because she has an irresistable urge to do exactly these things. > >Telling a young child not to do something like that is just an excuse > >for punishment …. "I didn’t want to spank him – he made me do it". > >Distraction works a whole lot better. > hmmmm.  I believe most parents are wise enough to come up with > alternatives in such a case.  Something between anarchy and spanking. > How about simply ending the bath?  It works wonders. >Hey, Jim, I totally agree. When my son was a young toddler and insisted >on standing up in the tub (which is extremely dangerous at that age), I >summarily ended the bath. He got the message in pretty short order.

Something that is dangerous, however, is totally different from simply splashing water out of the bath while playing, don’t you think? >Same for trying to step off the curb and into the street. He did it, >the outing ended. >Even toddlers understand instantaneous, logical consequences applied >consistently. They’re just young, they’re not dumb. (More’s the pity. >They’d be much easier to raise if they *were* dumb!)

Absolutely, Barb, but that isn’t punishment.  Keeping the child safe involves supervising and physically restraining them from doing unsafe actions.   The question though is what actions are really unsafe and which ones can be allowed under supervision and which ones are safe, but simply cause a mess that adults dislike. Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->We have a two year old and we would never forbid her from splashing, >or throwing toys on the floor (unless she was endangering someone >else). It would be a complete exercise in futility since she would >certainly continue to do it anyway. Not because she is defiant but >because she has an irresistable urge to do exactly these things. >Telling a young child not to do something like that is just an excuse >for punishment …. "I didn’t want to spank him – he made me do it". >Distraction works a whole lot better. >hmmmm.  I believe most parents are wise enough to come up with >alternatives in such a case.  Something between anarchy and spanking. >How about simply ending the bath?  It works wonders. >Rubbish! Family life is not the military. There are no "orders". >Some of us feel otherwise.  I personally have better things to do than >spend a bath time distracting. . . .

Really, what better things?  This is a time to relax and have fun with your child.. If the floor gets a little wet, what does it matter, the floor can be cleaned.  And your toddler is learning about science concepts by playing in the water, give her toys and containers she can pour water to and from.  Bath time doesn’t have to be all business.  Sure she can get clean – learn to do it herself with your help, but it’s also fun and relaxing and gets her ready for sleep as long as it doesn’t get too wild. When you are bathing your child, what else are you doing that takes precedence over spending this time with him? Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown

Response:

>And I say DOWN WITH the THEORIES! DOWN WITH IRRESPONSIBLE > COUNSELORS. LONG LIVE FAMILY. Be wise, don’t let anybody manipulate you. No > knee jerk !

He says, laughably, when all he IS is a jerk, an anti-intellectual with no brains to call his own!! The rampant behavior problems of such clowns as he represents always backfire and these morons are the very people who have their kids run away and/or punch them the fuck right out!! These are the abusive assholes you see in divorce court, those fools with NO REGARD whatsoever who think THEY don’t need any "counseling" or "therapy" or any of that "fag" stuff! Oh No, THEY don’t need a doctor, lawyer, minister, in other words they are the kind who are finally seen aptly to be what are finally, that they are all the WET OR DRY DRUNKS of this world. These are the homophobic neurotic guys abused-as-a-child, who become the child-and-spouse-abusing ragers! > Cmmon! Why everyone else can order people about, but not parents? Military, > police, teachers, firefighters, bosses, bureaocrats of all sorts and levels. > If one thinks about the only reasonable answer  is – because of the > anti-family brainwash in mass media and elsewhere.

So this is your payback for getting told what to do all day?? Come home and beat your wife and kids?? You’re just what I thought you were, a total asshole. Steve

Response:

> > hmmmm.  I believe most parents are wise enough to come up with > alternatives in such a case.  Something between anarchy and spanking. > How about simply ending the bath?  It works wonders. > Hey, Jim, I totally agree. When my son was a young toddler and insisted > on standing up in the tub (which is extremely dangerous at that age), I > summarily ended the bath. He got the message in pretty short order.

I guess! How could he stand in the thub if he is not in the thub, let alone splash. All these parenting theories have some evil magic. They switch reason off. What is the most striking they debilitate both supporters and opponents. I think any real parent would do what Jim suggests. But when discussing stupid theory people get stupid. I definitely do. I just can not see this crap wrecking what could be good family. > Even toddlers understand instantaneous, logical consequences applied > consistently. They’re just young, they’re not dumb. (More’s the pity. > They’d be much easier to raise if they *were* dumb!)

But then it wouldn’t be worthy the  trouble.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all, > I’m new to groups but I’ve been reading a lot of your posts and > haven’t > seen this subject come up. Do parents always agree about childrearing? > What do you do when you disagree? > My husband and I seem to be constantly fighting over this lately. I > have read many parenting books, am familiar with different parenting > theories and have firm convictions about a non confrontational and non > spanking environment. He is a very devoted and loving dad, but has > read > nothing about parenting (no time) and has nonsensical and inconsistent > confrontations with our 2 year old, which result in him snapping or > yelling. A couple of times I have caught him spanking her and while it > wasn’t hard, it made me really mad. > Sometimes he panders to her whims, lets her go without brushing teeth > when she makes a fuss, or go out in a t-shirt when it’s cold, then he > gets angry with her when she does something natural like throw her > blocks on the floor or splash a lot in the bath. I’ve tried telling > him > alternative things to do and explaining that two year olds don’t > understand that splashing water makes the floor wet but he gets > annoyed > at the criticism, doesn’t listen or understand the ideas and we just > end up arguing. We have a deep and caring committment to each other, > but the constant tension is damaging our relationship. > Then quite often he lets her run in the street near the road or climb > a > really high wall and I struggle over whether to keep my mouth shut or > get into an argument but I feel like I have to chose between his > wellbeing and my child’s. I’ve considered marriage counseling, but we > never had any problems before kids so perhaps we need parenting school > or something. I’m really at a loss. > Gillian > Before you buy. > I can relate so well to some of this – at least the disagreement on > parenting.  Or actually, in my case, not a real disagreement in words, > but in actions.  My dh is 18 years older than me and has raised 3 kids > (oldest is 24 and youngest is 20.)  He (they) raised them with spanking > as a normal punishment method, which was a little more acceptable by > society at the time than it is now that we are wiser.  And he sometimes > has the typical response that "it didn’t hurt them – look how they > turned out anyway." > But, we have talked before and he agreed that we should try not to > spank they boys, and even in some cases when he hasn’t necessarily > agreed that spanking wasn’t right, he has agreed to follow my wishes of > how I want to raise our boys (which is without spanking.)  But he still > occasionally swats them when he gets to a point that he is at a loss > for how else to get them to "behave".  Everytime it happens, I get > angry at him and then frustrated that I can’t say so in front of the > boys.  I have never told the boys that "Daddy was wrong.  He’s not > supposed to hit you" because I don’t want to make Daddy out to be bad > in their minds.  Trying to maintain a united front.  But it’s hard when > they say "Daddy hit me" or "It hurts."  I don’t know how to respond to > that. > Up until recently, it has been such an infrequent thing that I haven’t > stressed over it for long.  And when I do bring it up to him, he won’t > talk about it, but just says "I know, I know that’s how you want it > done."  He takes it as me "coming down on him for being wrong."  He > doesn’t want to read the childraising books and at times comments that > I am supposed to summarize things for him when I read them, but because > of that, he isn’t getting the other ideas like I do of how to handle > all of the different child situations.  He doesn’t want me to read the > whole book to him – he just want’s the Cliff’s Notes version, or less. > He doesn’t like to have discussions on childrearing methods in any > detail.  It doesn’t interest him to go into a lot of detail to find > different ways to deal with different situations. > In the past 2 days, he has swatted each of the boys once.  Only one > swat each, but it shocks me whenever he does it.  And both times, I > think it was because he told them to get up and do something, gave them > the count of 3 to start moving, and when they just sat there in their > tantrum and glared at him, picked each up and swatted them.  Then > picked them up and put them where they were supposed to be anyway. > Last night, I was so upset by the second instance of this that I > snatched the boy out of the room and took him to do the thing he was > refusing to do anyway (come upstairs to brush teeth and go to bed) and > didn’t talk to dh the rest of the night.  I don’t know how.  I’m so > worried that with the boys in their latest stage, being much more > difficult and defiant and aggressive than usual, that this swatting is > going to happen more and more often and become his preferred method of > discipline out of habit.  I know it’s mostly because he doesn’t have > the patience I have and takes the easy way out, but I don’t want him to > do it.  Especially when it’s not over something safety-related, like > running out into the street.  If he is going to do it occasionally, I > wish he’d pick the REALLY SERIOUS offenses to use it, and not just > everyday toddler stuff. > Anyway, I needed to unload a little on you guys, because I still > haven’t said anything to him.  I am going to try to say something > tonight. > — > Cindy, Twins Mommy to Robert and Michael, 6/28/98

As soon as these little guys get bigger he’s gonna get the shit punched out of him. I’ve seen it happen in one household after another as the kids got big enough, the old man-asshole winds up on his back looking up wondering what the hell happened!!! These old fuck-asshole fathers never TELL you THAT!! They’re too embarrassed! Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >We have a two year old and we would never forbid her from splashing, > >or throwing toys on the floor (unless she was endangering someone > >else). It would be a complete exercise in futility since she would > >certainly continue to do it anyway. Not because she is defiant but > >because she has an irresistable urge to do exactly these things. > >Telling a young child not to do something like that is just an excuse > >for punishment …. "I didn’t want to spank him – he made me do it". > >Distraction works a whole lot better. > hmmmm.  I believe most parents are wise enough to come up with > alternatives in such a case.  Something between anarchy and spanking. > How about simply ending the bath?  It works wonders. >Hey, Jim, I totally agree. When my son was a young toddler and insisted >on standing up in the tub (which is extremely dangerous at that age), I >summarily ended the bath. He got the message in pretty short order. >Same for trying to step off the curb and into the street. He did it, >the outing ended. >Even toddlers understand instantaneous, logical consequences applied >consistently. They’re just young, they’re not dumb. (More’s the pity. >They’d be much easier to raise if they *were* dumb!)

I’m with you.  I never went in for how throwing toys on the floor or playing with food are supposed to be learning experiences or expressions of exhuberance.  Throwing things are apt to damage the thrown things, and any thing around.  Food is for eating.  PlayDough and finger paints have already been invented for play and exhuberant expression – best to use those. Kids who don’t learn early that there are limits to behavior, and times and places and mediums for rowdiness and expression, will be the problematic, rule-pushing adults we run into everyday. Banty (sounding like Judge Judy today, I know)

Response:

> >Respect to one’s parents is way more important than brushing one’s teeth, >no matter what dental companies say in their advertisements. It is rather >fancy to make two year old brush her teeth. But if you tell her not to >throw blocks or not to splash and she immediately disobeys it begs for >action. Not necessarily spanking. But why not after all? > We have a two year old and we would never forbid her from splashing, > or throwing toys on the floor

Nobody makes you to. And there is definitely no serious reason not to throw blocks on the floor. Unless the father just asked not to do this. >  It would be a complete exercise in futility since she would > certainly continue to do it anyway.Not because she is defiant but

Does it mean that no child is defiant? Of course not! Children might well be defiant. And they might well throw blocks to the floor to demonstrate their defiance. And that blatant demonstration might precipitate punishment. But Gillian’s problem is not in the deciding wether to punish or not to punish. It is weighting her own interests against the media hyped indoctrination camaign. Her reasoning is absolutely totalitarian. (Well, not absolutely. Steve gave us an example of absolutely totalitarian reasoning. She is not like that.) She follows books religeously and just doesn’t consider alternatves. She must decide if loyalty to trashy "parenting books" is above loyalty to her family. Apparently both she and her husband are young and unexperienced. They both will grow wiser with time, unless the evil anti-family propaganda ruins their life. She asks if she can disregard the theories and be herself – a loving and caring mom and wife. And I say DOWN WITH the THEORIES! DOWN WITH IRRESPONSIBLE COUNSELORS. LONG LIVE FAMILY. Be wise, don’t let anybody manipulate you. No knee jerk reflexes! Books are just bound sheets of pressured cellulose. Are they more important than alive and loving human being? because she has an irresistable urge to do exactly these things. > Telling a young child not to do something like that is just an excuse > for punishment ….

Not necessarily. It might be too much noise. A child might throw on the floor a box of bloks parent just collected all over the floor… may be not for the first time. The child might well be testing the limits. She might be testing relative political influence of  mother and father. There are lots of reasons why parent might enforce obedience other that plain sadism. > "I didn’t want to spank him – he made me do it". > Distraction works a whole lot better.

For some things distraction doesn’t work at all. If child is throwing blocks becaused she is bored to death distraction will definitely help. If she is testing limits it wont. Argument between parents might be good distraction. But it is a bad way to set limits.  Beside that distraction might well work for her husband too. Why she should jump into the deadly path of conflicts and possibly divorce where the society tries to push her? >> I’ve tried telling him >> alternative things to do and explaining that two year olds don’t >> understand that splashing water makes the floor wet >She doesn’t need to understand that. It is enough to obey orders. > Rubbish! Family life is not the military. There are no "orders".

Cmmon! Why everyone else can order people about, but not parents? Military, police, teachers, firefighters, bosses, bureaocrats of all sorts and levels. If one thinks about the only reasonable answer  is – because of the anti-family brainwash in mass media and elsewhere.

Response:

>We have a two year old and we would never forbid her from splashing, >or throwing toys on the floor (unless she was endangering someone >else). It would be a complete exercise in futility since she would >certainly continue to do it anyway. Not because she is defiant but >because she has an irresistable urge to do exactly these things. >Telling a young child not to do something like that is just an excuse >for punishment …. "I didn’t want to spank him – he made me do it". >Distraction works a whole lot better.

hmmmm.  I believe most parents are wise enough to come up with alternatives in such a case.  Something between anarchy and spanking. How about simply ending the bath?  It works wonders. >Rubbish! Family life is not the military. There are no "orders".

Some of us feel otherwise.  I personally have better things to do than spend a bath time distracting. . . . — Jim

Response:

It *is* hard when you don’t agree.  I think I tend to think about it first. Why is she misbehaving?  Is she tired, or hungry?  My husband doesn’t think about it.  He just knows she isn’t doing what he asked her to do.  We don’t argue about it in front of the kids.  I’m sure I do things he doesn’t agree with.  We both just chalk it up to different personalities and styles.  I do it my way when I’m with the kids, and he does it his way when he’s with them.  I think he’s starting to stop and think a bit more though lately. Later, Sophie mom to Charlotte (2.4 yrs) and Patrick (1 yr on Thursday!)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all, > I’m new to groups but I’ve been reading a lot of your posts and haven’t > seen this subject come up. Do parents always agree about childrearing? > What do you do when you disagree? > My husband and I seem to be constantly fighting over this lately. I > have read many parenting books, am familiar with different parenting > theories and have firm convictions about a non confrontational and non > spanking environment. He is a very devoted and loving dad, but has read > nothing about parenting (no time) and has nonsensical and inconsistent > confrontations with our 2 year old, which result in him snapping or > yelling. A couple of times I have caught him spanking her and while it > wasn’t hard, it made me really mad. > Sometimes he panders to her whims, lets her go without brushing teeth > when she makes a fuss, or go out in a t-shirt when it’s cold, then he > gets angry with her when she does something natural like throw her > blocks on the floor or splash a lot in the bath. I’ve tried telling him > alternative things to do and explaining that two year olds don’t > understand that splashing water makes the floor wet but he gets annoyed > at the criticism, doesn’t listen or understand the ideas and we just > end up arguing. We have a deep and caring committment to each other, > but the constant tension is damaging our relationship. > Then quite often he lets her run in the street near the road or climb a > really high wall and I struggle over whether to keep my mouth shut or > get into an argument but I feel like I have to chose between his > wellbeing and my child’s. I’ve considered marriage counseling, but we > never had any problems before kids so perhaps we need parenting school > or something. I’m really at a loss. > Gillian > Before you buy.

I can relate so well to some of this – at least the disagreement on parenting.  Or actually, in my case, not a real disagreement in words, but in actions.  My dh is 18 years older than me and has raised 3 kids (oldest is 24 and youngest is 20.)  He (they) raised them with spanking as a normal punishment method, which was a little more acceptable by society at the time than it is now that we are wiser.  And he sometimes has the typical response that "it didn’t hurt them – look how they turned out anyway." But, we have talked before and he agreed that we should try not to spank they boys, and even in some cases when he hasn’t necessarily agreed that spanking wasn’t right, he has agreed to follow my wishes of how I want to raise our boys (which is without spanking.)  But he still occasionally swats them when he gets to a point that he is at a loss for how else to get them to "behave".  Everytime it happens, I get angry at him and then frustrated that I can’t say so in front of the boys.  I have never told the boys that "Daddy was wrong.  He’s not supposed to hit you" because I don’t want to make Daddy out to be bad in their minds.  Trying to maintain a united front.  But it’s hard when they say "Daddy hit me" or "It hurts."  I don’t know how to respond to that. Up until recently, it has been such an infrequent thing that I haven’t stressed over it for long.  And when I do bring it up to him, he won’t talk about it, but just says "I know, I know that’s how you want it done."  He takes it as me "coming down on him for being wrong."  He doesn’t want to read the childraising books and at times comments that I am supposed to summarize things for him when I read them, but because of that, he isn’t getting the other ideas like I do of how to handle all of the different child situations.  He doesn’t want me to read the whole book to him – he just want’s the Cliff’s Notes version, or less. He doesn’t like to have discussions on childrearing methods in any detail.  It doesn’t interest him to go into a lot of detail to find different ways to deal with different situations. In the past 2 days, he has swatted each of the boys once.  Only one swat each, but it shocks me whenever he does it.  And both times, I think it was because he told them to get up and do something, gave them the count of 3 to start moving, and when they just sat there in their tantrum and glared at him, picked each up and swatted them.  Then picked them up and put them where they were supposed to be anyway. Last night, I was so upset by the second instance of this that I snatched the boy out of the room and took him to do the thing he was refusing to do anyway (come upstairs to brush teeth and go to bed) and didn’t talk to dh the rest of the night.  I don’t know how.  I’m so worried that with the boys in their latest stage, being much more difficult and defiant and aggressive than usual, that this swatting is going to happen more and more often and become his preferred method of discipline out of habit.  I know it’s mostly because he doesn’t have the patience I have and takes the easy way out, but I don’t want him to do it.  Especially when it’s not over something safety-related, like running out into the street.  If he is going to do it occasionally, I wish he’d pick the REALLY SERIOUS offenses to use it, and not just everyday toddler stuff. Anyway, I needed to unload a little on you guys, because I still haven’t said anything to him.  I am going to try to say something tonight. — Cindy, Twins Mommy to Robert and Michael, 6/28/98 (Fraternal Twin Boys) Before you buy.

Response:

> > My husband and I seem to be constantly fighting over this lately. I > have read many parenting books, am familiar with different parenting > theories > It is good idea to disregard theories when they are in  your way. It seems > they are. Authors of these theories aren’t responsible for your family. > They don’t care about your happiness. The care only about serving sponsor’s > agenda.

When it comes to seeing a tiny child hit that is ABUSE!! That is NOT merely some aesthetic opinion!! > and have firm convictions about a non confrontational and non > spanking environment. He is a very devoted and loving dad, but has read > nothing about parenting (no time) and has nonsensical and inconsistent > confrontations with our 2 year old, which result in him snapping or > yelling. > So what? Don’t worry. It happens with the first child. Alredy with the > second one your husband will get much more lazy and patient.  And no matter > what bookish politically correct propaganda says no child have yet died > because of yellind.

BULLSHIT!! Children are harmed their whole life by what she described!! It can destroy their entire life! What the fuck did you THINK does that to some people, just a bad night!!???? > A couple of times I have caught him spanking her and while it > wasn’t hard, it made me really mad. > You have to be wise. The worst thing parents can do is to let child see > their disagreement. It is worse that year long spanking. Child could grow > "political", cuningly playing on your disagreements. What might be worse?

BULLSHIT!! It’s GOOD for a child to see that parents don’t agree about the child getting HIT!!! It keeps them from taking all blame and self-hate onto themselves, it prevents over half the damage done to them otherwise!! The kids who were beaten terribly, if they had just one other person who told them they didn;’t deserve that, were MUCH more able to hold out and escape that abuse and not become psychotic!! > Sometimes he panders to her whims, lets her go without brushing teeth > when she makes a fuss, or go out in a t-shirt when it’s cold, then he > gets angry with her when she does something natural like throw her > blocks on the floor or splash a lot in the bath. > Respect to one’s parents is way more important than brushing one’s teeth, > no matter what dental companies say in their advertisements. It is rather > fancy to make two year old brush her teeth. But if you tell her not to > throw blocks or not to splash and she immediately disobeys it begs for > action. Not necessarily spanking. But why not after all?

You’re an abusive SHIT, buddy!! Get the FUCK OFF this group!! > I’ve tried telling him > alternative things to do and explaining that two year olds don’t > understand that splashing water makes the floor wet > She doesn’t need to understand that. It is enough to obey orders.

Fuck you in the asshole, you were abused yourself, which is why you are bound and determined to pay YOUR abuse back to other children!! You need to be CASTRATED!!! > but he gets annoyed at the criticism, doesn’t listen or understand the > ideas > Are these  ideas really worth it?

YES!! You ignorant Texas buttshit!! YES!! > and we just end up arguing. We have a deep and caring committment to each > other, > but the constant tension is damaging our relationship. > Forget it. As I’ve alredy wrote he will eventually get  lazy and patient. > He’ve got too much energy and devotion and too few children to accomodate > it all.

That’s the complete ignorance/incompetence theory of fatherhood!! Get out of that relationship with your kid!! > Then quite often he lets her run in the street near the road or climb a > really high wall and I struggle over whether to keep my mouth shut or > get into an argument > That is strange. Will your argument with your husband keep child on the > sidewalk or off the wall? You have to go and catch child by the hand or > take her off the wall WITHOUT arguing. If you’ve agreed not to argue in > child’s presence he won’t argue. And if you are patient with his actions he > will pay in kind. One argument that  worked for my dad and for me is that > being hit by a car only once is more than enough. Even if there is one > chance per million you just have no right for error. (it is about running > in the streets, not about spanking.)

That doesn’t happen. It is used as an EXCUSE FOR ABUSE THOUSANDS of times more often than it does anything, and it never does anything good! A child who is terrified simply panics and does nothing. A child who is taught patiently understands and bases their action on reason!!! > but I feel like I have to chose between his > wellbeing and my child’s. > I think that is the purpose of all those "parenting books" you’ve read. > They want to get parents out and bureaocrats and counselors of all sorts > in.

With shitheads like YOU around hell YES!! It’s better than your ABUSE!! > I’m pretty sure that is the main cause of school shootings and other > unpleasant things.

All the kids involved in the school shootings were beaten by harshly discipline-fixated fathers!! That’s WHY they flipped out!! > I’ve considered marriage counseling, but we > never had any problems before kids so perhaps we need parenting school > or something. I’m really at a loss. > That is clear. There is nothing more stupid than going to marriage > counseling. There is just no reason why two adult people should entrust > their life to the guy who is not responsible in any way for the effect of > his suggestions, while you have the happiness of your entire family at > stake.

Now if only her child-husband understood that instead of merely knee-jerking the same abuse he was victim of! > One really have to develop enough self-respect to treat these counselors > with contempt they deserve. The same is true for "parenting books" and > "theories" if they are in your way. > Alex.

You really do NOT know what the fuck you’re talking about! Steve

Response:

proactive comes much more naturally to me than to my > husband who is more reactive by nature. > He agrees with the principles when we discuss them in calmer moments > and we did talk about childrearing before we were even married, it is > just putting the ideas into practice seems hard for him…… > And your guess is right. His dad disciplined with a belt and although

Gillian, Have you considered using a "safe word"?  It’s something that Chris and I use when one or the other is about to lose our temper with Garrett. It’s just a word for the non-involved parent to whisper to the parent who’s about to blow up at the kid.  It’s a reminder word that says "you’re about to lose (or have lost) your temper, and are being unreasonable; back off for a moment." Our parenting safe word is "Popsicle." Usually what happens, is that the angry parent turns to argue with the non-involved (and cooler) parent about how they WEREN’T being unreasonable.  BUT by the time they turn their attention back to the child, they’ve been distracted enough, that much of the heat has gone out of their dealings with the child.  (That’s how I most often respond to Chris saying it to me.  After I’ve calmed down fully, I then realize that he was right). Another reaction is "you’re right, I’m over-reacting; sorry Garrett." Yet another observed reaction is for the angry parent to seemingly ignore the non-involved parent, but to become noticably more reasonable toward the child.  Both of these responses are more typicle of how Chris handles it. A couple of important considerations:  Both parents have to agree to it.  AND this is really important:  DO NOT OVERUSE IT!!!  It loses it’s effectiveness if it’s used too often. Chris and I both are pretty volatile; fortunately, it’s rare that we’re both angry at the same time!  For both of us, losing our temper is the hardest part of parenting, which is why we started using the parental safe word. Cathy Weeks Before you buy.

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Alex said:  >It is rather >fancy to make two year old brush her teeth.

Lol.  Have you ever smelled a toddler’s breath?  It’s hardly *fancy*.  It’s good dental/personal hygiene. Later, Sophie mom to Charlotte (2.4 yrs) and Patrick (1 yr on Thursday!)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Seems to me your issue is marital communication rather than parenting. You > try to communicate, he gets annoyed. It rather sounds like you are not > speaking to and hearing one another. Hard to come to a concensus in that > environment. If you "caught" him spanking her, that implies to me that the 2 > of you had previously agreed that that was not going to happen. If that is > the case, he is really disrespecting you and your opinions. > In light of this, marital counseling perhaps combined with parenting > classes, seems like a good idea to me. > Stephanie

We did agree on no physical punishment but I don’t think he meant to break his word. He just gets frustrated easily and doesn’t cope all that well. Actually I don’t think that will happen again after I was very angry last time. He does usually respect my opinions, he just doesn’t fully understand the impact of the way he acts. Gillian Before you buy.

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> My husband and I seem to be constantly fighting over this lately. I > have read many parenting books, am familiar with different parenting > theories

It is good idea to disregard theories when they are in  your way. It seems they are. Authors of these theories aren’t responsible for your family. They don’t care about your happiness. The care only about serving sponsor’s agenda. > and have firm convictions about a non confrontational and non > spanking environment. He is a very devoted and loving dad, but has read > nothing about parenting (no time) and has nonsensical and inconsistent > confrontations with our 2 year old, which result in him snapping or > yelling.

So what? Don’t worry. It happens with the first child. Alredy with the second one your husband will get much more lazy and patient.  And no matter what bookish politically correct propaganda says no child have yet died because of yellind. > A couple of times I have caught him spanking her and while it > wasn’t hard, it made me really mad.

You have to be wise. The worst thing parents can do is to let child see their disagreement. It is worse that year long spanking. Child could grow "political", cuningly playing on your disagreements. What might be worse? > Sometimes he panders to her whims, lets her go without brushing teeth > when she makes a fuss, or go out in a t-shirt when it’s cold, then he > gets angry with her when she does something natural like throw her > blocks on the floor or splash a lot in the bath.

Respect to one’s parents is way more important than brushing one’s teeth, no matter what dental companies say in their advertisements. It is rather fancy to make two year old brush her teeth. But if you tell her not to throw blocks or not to splash and she immediately disobeys it begs for action. Not necessarily spanking. But why not after all? > I’ve tried telling him > alternative things to do and explaining that two year olds don’t > understand that splashing water makes the floor wet

She doesn’t need to understand that. It is enough to obey orders. > but he gets annoyed at the criticism, doesn’t listen or understand the > ideas

Are these  ideas really worth it? > and we just end up arguing. We have a deep and caring committment to each > other, > but the constant tension is damaging our relationship.

Forget it. As I’ve alredy wrote he will eventually get  lazy and patient. He’ve got too much energy and devotion and too few children to accomodate it all. > Then quite often he lets her run in the street near the road or climb a > really high wall and I struggle over whether to keep my mouth shut or > get into an argument

That is strange. Will your argument with your husband keep child on the sidewalk or off the wall? You have to go and catch child by the hand or take her off the wall WITHOUT arguing. If you’ve agreed not to argue in child’s presence he won’t argue. And if you are patient with his actions he will pay in kind. One argument that  worked for my dad and for me is that being hit by a car only once is more than enough. Even if there is one chance per million you just have no right for error. (it is about running in the streets, not about spanking.) > but I feel like I have to chose between his > wellbeing and my child’s.

I think that is the purpose of all those "parenting books" you’ve read. They want to get parents out and bureaocrats and counselors of all sorts in. I’m pretty sure that is the main cause of school shootings and other unpleasant things. The system needs human dust, not connected by any kind of ties except free market. It needs people who care only about their wishes, whims and feelings. You, on the other hand, want your children to develop fully, freely in harmony with the world and the society into responsible mature human beings. The system wants to limit them to sex and shopping. You are on their way, and they publish "parenting book" to get you out of their way. > I’ve considered marriage counseling, but we > never had any problems before kids so perhaps we need parenting school > or something. I’m really at a loss.

That is clear. There is nothing more stupid than going to marriage counseling. There is just no reason why two adult people should entrust their life to the guy who is not responsible in any way for the effect of his suggestions, while you have the happiness of your entire family at stake. One really have to develop enough self-respect to treat these counselors with contempt they deserve. The same is true for "parenting books" and "theories" if they are in your way. Alex.

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> We used to get a periodical called "Growing Child" which discussed > appropriate expectations, discipline, games and activities, etc. for > each age.  It came once a month, a 6-page (I think) pamphlet geared to > your child’s age in months at the time.  Since it was such a quick read > even a busy dad would have time to read it, and get some perspective on > what is appropriate for a child your child’s age.  You might leave it > in the bathroom or somewhere where he is bound to stumble on it.

 Thanks. That sounds like a good idea. Maybe a few written pages will help explain what I am constantly trying to but just don’t seem to get over. Gillian Before you buy.

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Thanks Dorothy, that was helpful. I’ve read Faber & Mazlish and I like their ideas, but proactive comes much more naturally to me than to my husband who is more reactive by nature. In a way I think that is one of their flaws in that they assume that anyone can just change and behave differently and maybe this is unrealistic for some people. He agrees with the principles when we discuss them in calmer moments and we did talk about childrearing before we were even married, it is just putting the ideas into practice seems hard for him…… And your guess is right. His dad disciplined with a belt and although I told him before we had a child that I would never allow physical punishment (and he agreed), I think the influence of his experience is still there. He has no bad feelings towards his parents and doesn’t think what they did was so bad. He always thinks I am exagerating with the safety issues but I feel real concern because sometimes he gets distracted and doesn’t watch her very carefully or throws her about recklessly in play. I am so scared that if I don’t say anything something will happen and I don’t want to have an "I told you so" issue over this. Gillian Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all, > I’m new to groups but I’ve been reading a lot of your posts and haven’t > seen this subject come up. Do parents always agree about childrearing? > What do you do when you disagree? > My husband and I seem to be constantly fighting over this lately. I > have read many parenting books, am familiar with different parenting > theories and have firm convictions about a non confrontational and non > spanking environment. He is a very devoted and loving dad, but has read > nothing about parenting (no time) and has nonsensical and inconsistent > confrontations with our 2 year old, which result in him snapping or > yelling. A couple of times I have caught him spanking her and while it > wasn’t hard, it made me really mad. > Sometimes he panders to her whims, lets her go without brushing teeth > when she makes a fuss, or go out in a t-shirt when it’s cold, then he > gets angry with her when she does something natural like throw her > blocks on the floor or splash a lot in the bath. I’ve tried telling him > alternative things to do and explaining that two year olds don’t > understand that splashing water makes the floor wet but he gets annoyed > at the criticism, doesn’t listen or understand the ideas and we just > end up arguing. We have a deep and caring committment to each other, > but the constant tension is damaging our relationship. > Then quite often he lets her run in the street near the road or climb a > really high wall and I struggle over whether to keep my mouth shut or > get into an argument but I feel like I have to chose between his > wellbeing and my child’s. I’ve considered marriage counseling, but we > never had any problems before kids so perhaps we need parenting school > or something. I’m really at a loss.

Seems to me your issue is marital communication rather than parenting. You try to communicate, he gets annoyed. It rather sounds like you are not speaking to and hearing one another. Hard to come to a concensus in that environment. If you "caught" him spanking her, that implies to me that the 2 of you had previously agreed that that was not going to happen. If that is the case, he is really disrespecting you and your opinions. In light of this, marital counseling perhaps combined with parenting classes, seems like a good idea to me. Stephanie

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>He is a very devoted and loving dad, but has read >nothing about parenting (no time) and has nonsensical and inconsistent >confrontations with our 2 year old, which result in him snapping or >yelling.

We used to get a periodical called "Growing Child" which discussed appropriate expectations, discipline, games and activities, etc. for each age.  It came once a month, a 6-page (I think) pamphlet geared to your child’s age in months at the time.  Since it was such a quick read even a busy dad would have time to read it, and get some perspective on what is appropriate for a child your child’s age.  You might leave it in the bathroom or somewhere where he is bound to stumble on it. >Then quite often he lets her run in the street near the road or climb a >really high wall and I struggle over whether to keep my mouth shut or >get into an argument but I feel like I have to chose between his >wellbeing and my child’s. I’ve considered marriage counseling, but we >never had any problems before kids so perhaps we need parenting school >or something. I’m really at a loss.

If he would attend a parenting class with you, that might help to put you both on the same page. Good luck! –Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and ??? due 3/01)

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> Hi all,

Hi Ben!!!!  How are ya old buddy?  You should make a career out this ya Sarah – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m new to groups but I’ve been reading a lot of your posts and haven’t > seen this subject come up. Do parents always agree about childrearing? > What do you do when you disagree? > My husband and I seem to be constantly fighting over this lately. I > have read many parenting books, am familiar with different parenting > theories and have firm convictions about a non confrontational and non > spanking environment. He is a very devoted and loving dad, but has read > nothing about parenting (no time) and has nonsensical and inconsistent > confrontations with our 2 year old, which result in him snapping or > yelling. A couple of times I have caught him spanking her and while it > wasn’t hard, it made me really mad. > Sometimes he panders to her whims, lets her go without brushing teeth > when she makes a fuss, or go out in a t-shirt when it’s cold, then he > gets angry with her when she does something natural like throw her > blocks on the floor or splash a lot in the bath. I’ve tried telling him > alternative things to do and explaining that two year olds don’t > understand that splashing water makes the floor wet but he gets annoyed > at the criticism, doesn’t listen or understand the ideas and we just > end up arguing. We have a deep and caring committment to each other, > but the constant tension is damaging our relationship. > Then quite often he lets her run in the street near the road or climb a > really high wall and I struggle over whether to keep my mouth shut or > get into an argument but I feel like I have to chose between his > wellbeing and my child’s. I’ve considered marriage counseling, but we > never had any problems before kids so perhaps we need parenting school > or something. I’m really at a loss. > Gillian > Before you buy.

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Hi, Gillian. See the post on positive parenting.  Reposting it for you and others with the most recent revisions to it.   >Hi all, >I’m new to groups but I’ve been reading a lot of your posts and haven’t >seen this subject come up. Do parents always agree about childrearing? >What do you do when you disagree?

I think there are bound to be disagreements unless you were unusually smart and discussed child-rearing before you married or before or during the pregnancy..   >My husband and I seem to be constantly fighting over this lately. I >have read many parenting books, am familiar with different parenting >theories and have firm convictions about a non confrontational and non >spanking environment. He is a very devoted and loving dad, but has read >nothing about parenting (no time) and has nonsensical and inconsistent >confrontations with our 2 year old, which result in him snapping or >yelling. A couple of times I have caught him spanking her and while it >wasn’t hard, it made me really mad.

You need to sit down at a time when there is no issue going on and talk about a common philosophy and about your expectations for children of this age.   Certainly, imho, spanking a child especially if he is angry is not a good thing, but he has to learn techniques for dealing with his anger, appropriate expectations and other ways of dealing with toddlers. >Sometimes he panders to her whims, lets her go without brushing teeth >when she makes a fuss, or go out in a t-shirt when it’s cold, then he >gets angry with her when she does something natural like throw her >blocks on the floor or splash a lot in the bath.

We often go with what our parents did to us.  Have you spoken to him about how his own dad and mom disciplined him? >I’ve tried telling him alternative things to do and explaining that two >year olds don’t understand that splashing water makes the floor wet >but he gets annoyed at the criticism, doesn’t listen or understand the >ideas and we just end up arguing.

That’s why you need to approach this when you are both calm not when an incident is going on.  Dads often feel criticized, btw, because mom’s imply that they have an instinct that dads don’t have. it’s the same principle with kids – if we tell them our way and seem not to accept theirs, they feel like they can’t do things right. >We have a deep and caring committment to each other, >but the constant tension is damaging our relationship.

I can understand that too. >Then quite often he lets her run in the street near the road or climb a >really high wall and I struggle over whether to keep my mouth shut or >get into an argument but I feel like I have to chose between his >wellbeing and my child’s. I’ve considered marriage counseling, but we >never had any problems before kids so perhaps we need parenting school >or something. I’m really at a loss.

A couple of things here.  If safety is in question, you have to sit down and talk about that too.  But often dads and moms do have different perceptions about what a child can handle and how to keep them safe.  Sometimes it may be all right to defer to his judgement when he is with your child.  Is he watching the child and is he careful to be where he is needed.  You may be seeing danger where there is none.  So you may need to compromise on this *if* you can analyze your fear.   I know that I had a different feeling about what my son was capable of then his dad did and usually the one who allowed him more risk was actually correct in seeing his capabilities. I will repost the positive parenting advice I usually give if you wish and perhaps you can print it out and use it as the basis for a discussion of what both of you are doing.  Take from it only what resonates with you and use it as a beginning not a prescription. >Gillian

Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi all, > I’m new to groups but I’ve been reading a lot of your posts and haven’t > seen this subject come up. Do parents always agree about childrearing? > What do you do when you disagree? > My husband and I seem to be constantly fighting over this lately. I > have read many parenting books, am familiar with different parenting > theories and have firm convictions about a non confrontational and non > spanking environment. He is a very devoted and loving dad, but has read > nothing about parenting (no time) and has nonsensical and inconsistent > confrontations with our 2 year old, which result in him snapping or > yelling. A couple of times I have caught him spanking her and while it > wasn’t hard, it made me really mad. > Sometimes he panders to her whims, lets her go without brushing teeth > when she makes a fuss, or go out in a t-shirt when it’s cold, then he > gets angry with her when she does something natural like throw her > blocks on the floor or splash a lot in the bath. I’ve tried telling him > alternative things to do and explaining that two year olds don’t > understand that splashing water makes the floor wet but he gets annoyed > at the criticism, doesn’t listen or understand the ideas and we just > end up arguing. We have a deep and caring committment to each other, > but the constant tension is damaging our relationship. > Then quite often he lets her run in the street near the road or climb a > really high wall and I struggle over whether to keep my mouth shut or > get into an argument but I feel like I have to chose between his > wellbeing and my child’s. I’ve considered marriage counseling, but we > never had any problems before kids so perhaps we need parenting school > or something. I’m really at a loss. > Gillian

Congrats, you married an impulsive child, so now you have two. Indicate to him that you will LEAVE his ass if he touches her again without asking! Steve

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Hi all, I’m new to groups but I’ve been reading a lot of your posts and haven’t seen this subject come up. Do parents always agree about childrearing? What do you do when you disagree? My husband and I seem to be constantly fighting over this lately. I have read many parenting books, am familiar with different parenting theories and have firm convictions about a non confrontational and non spanking environment. He is a very devoted and loving dad, but has read nothing about parenting (no time) and has nonsensical and inconsistent confrontations with our 2 year old, which result in him snapping or yelling. A couple of times I have caught him spanking her and while it wasn’t hard, it made me really mad. Sometimes he panders to her whims, lets her go without brushing teeth when she makes a fuss, or go out in a t-shirt when it’s cold, then he gets angry with her when she does something natural like throw her blocks on the floor or splash a lot in the bath. I’ve tried telling him alternative things to do and explaining that two year olds don’t understand that splashing water makes the floor wet but he gets annoyed at the criticism, doesn’t listen or understand the ideas and we just end up arguing. We have a deep and caring committment to each other, but the constant tension is damaging our relationship. Then quite often he lets her run in the street near the road or climb a really high wall and I struggle over whether to keep my mouth shut or get into an argument but I feel like I have to chose between his wellbeing and my child’s. I’ve considered marriage counseling, but we never had any problems before kids so perhaps we need parenting school or something. I’m really at a loss. Gillian Before you buy.

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