Question:
> >I’ve been criticized for sending messages such as this one to this >group asking for help in stopping it. Where else should I be looking >for help to get rid of something like this when it’s posted in >Alt.Parenting.Solutions where it obviously has no place? Don’t flame >me for asking a question – just give me very detailed instructions so >I can finally get alt.parenting.solutions back on track and not have >this type of thing, spamming or other inappropriate types of posts.
Interesting that you take feedback or your attempts to censor as critizism. There are many of these posts that I do not argree with too, but you are deciding that religion has nothing to do with parenting. You have never been further from the truth. I AM NOT RELIGIOUS, however I find it interesrting the depths thsat people will go to to justify their action. It also makes sense to me some of the things I see and hear. There are many parts of this newsgroup that I don’t read. (Time constraints, or topic) I suggest that you activate your personal censorship button and hit the delete key.
Response:
The series of posts you’re refering to are indeed between a cultist-cum-fundamentalist pseudo-christian who advocates hitting children with "the rod" until "they are broken" and "bruised". Several of us have tried unsucessfully to ask her to respond in plain english where she finds that Christ advocates beating children in this manner in the New Testament. Actually, I posted this thread in Alt.parenting.solutions for 2 parenting.spanking, and is not always assured of receiving complete postings from either group. 2. For practical purposes: alt.parenting.spanking is not on my server so I use alt.parenting.solutions as a cross-post. 3. I believe the subject of criminal abuse of children relevant to both groups, which I post to on a semi-regular basis. I hope this clears the matter up. Thank you, Gnosis
Response:
To all (Bertie3778) writes(quoting Chris:): >Can you cite a contemporary dictionary definition of "discipline" which >involves "forcefully seizing someone and redirecting them from the path >their nature would suggest?" For that matter, can you find such a >definition in any English-Latin dictionary?
Chris, The etymology of a word gives us an understanding of its root meaning. Christians certainly understand discipline in the way I use it as turning the child away from the path of nature (the path to damnation) to the path of rightiousness. This is normally a forcefull process. But since you are constantly accusing me of making things up let us look at the etymology of the word discipline in Merriam Webster and Simon & Schuster. Websters Third New International Dictionary-Encyclopedia Brittanica Edition vol 1 (1966) pg. 644: discipline see disciple ignoring old english and of and proceeding to discipulus pupil perhaps fr. (assumed) L. discipere to grasp, comprehend fr. L. dis-dis1 + cipere (fr. capere to seize). Websters New World Dictionary of the American Language (2nd College ed.)( New York: Simon and Schuster 1982) at page 401. discipline see disciple (. . . . L.discipulus learner < discipere to comprehend < dis-apart, + capere, to hold infl. by discere to learn. As far as the Latin dictionary see J.R. Marchant M.A. et al. (Rev.) Cassell’s Latin Dictionary (New York: Funk and Wagnalls Company 1955 ) at 173, dis, inseparable prefix meaning away from; at 83, Capio (capere) to take, to seize; at 174 Discipina, ae to discipline, train as in children and slaves; Id. disco, discere to learn. see Chris I didn’t make it up. Marilyn p.s. Why does everyone else get your posts and I have to quote from someone quoting you or miss you altogether? Did you do something to outrage AOL? :
Response:
>I’ve been criticized for sending messages such as this one to this >group asking for help in stopping it. Where else should I be looking >for help to get rid of something like this when it’s posted in >Alt.Parenting.Solutions where it obviously has no place? Don’t flame >me for asking a question – just give me very detailed instructions so >I can finally get alt.parenting.solutions back on track and not have >this type of thing, spamming or other inappropriate types of posts. >It’s driving away our readers.
A visit to alt.parenting.solutions reveals that there’s a heated discussion going on between Marilyn, a "Christ"-ian fundamentalist, who believes in hitting children so that Jesus won’t damn them to Hell, and a group of people (including "Gnosis", whom you quote), who are arguing that the Bible does not in fact support that practice. There are also several non-religious threads about hitting children; it is a perennial topic. The question is whether the intentional infliction of pain upon children by their parents (which if done to an adult is called torture) is or is not a solution to any problem (theological or otherwise). The discussion *does* seem to be relevant to alt.- parenting.solutions. And the articles (at the present time, at least) are not unduly repetitive, or harassing, or cross-posted. The only article you quoted as objectionable is one by Gnosis. I don’t know whether you are a fundamentalist yourself, and want to get rid of his articles in particular, or whether you want to eliminate the entire discussion. My evaluation is that neither action would be in keeping with the guidelines of Usenet, in so far as maintaining an open forum for appropriate communication. If you and other participants in the newsgroup are not using *threaded newsreaders*, i.e., programs that present all the articles of a particular discussion grouped together, then I recommend that you do so. Such programs (e.g., "trn" under Unix) allow you to quickly skip over discussions that you don’t want to read, and also to follow more easily those that you are interested in. Another solution is to use the "killfile" facility of most news- reader programs to eliminate articles on particular subjects or originating from particular people. In support of the conclusion that the discussion is appropriate and should not be censored, here are some (edited) excerpts from it:
= =: [so much of interest that to even begin to quote it in part is impossible; =: the whole post is worth reading ... and Gnosis, you spell just fine, = =: I want to praise Gnosis for taking the time to lay out once and for all =: the totality of arguments against fundamentalism and, specifically, its =: attitude towards spanking children. Not that I want to see anyone's =: religion "attacked," yet without some discussion of the origins of =: Christianity (which Gnosis encapsulated so well) one is not able to put in =: perspective the beliefs of those who would claim that God's word is =: certain and absolute and known - and completely contrary to most Christian =: beliefs over the past 19 centuries. =Newsgroups: alt.parenting.solutions,alt.parenting.spanking = =Hal and Marilyn- = =I continue to be amazed that somehow Christians seem to feel that =Jesus advocated hitting children. I have heard this all my life, =and continue to hear it, yet nowhere in the New Testament is =hitting advocated or recommended. The rod is referred to in Psalms =as an instrument of the shepherd for leading and guiding the =sheep, not for hitting the lambs. =Newsgroups: alt.parenting.solutions = =LaVonne, Hal, Gnosis, = =Jesus talked far more about =Hell than he ever did about heaven. Would Jesus spank? Well the worst =spanking I ever got took about five minutes to deliver though keeping me =in place took some additional time and hurt for an hour or so. Hell lasts =forever. Would Jesus Spank? Gnosis, Jesus is appointed by God to judge =the living and the dead and decide on judgment day who will be on his =right side and who his left. Would Jesus Spank? Gnosis, Jesus will damn, =children and adults to eternal pain. Measured against an eternity in Hell, =a spanking is small potatoes indeed. = =3) "Marilyn, do you really fear that your children are at risk of going to =hell?" You really didn't ask this but since my husband did when I got on =this topic let me answer the question. Every christian parent I know =fears for their children's future life every day and every night of their =lives. This is the most important question we face, far more important =than helping our children get an education, a rewarding profession, a =congenial spouse, a nice car, a home in the country etc. etc. etc. Don't =misunderstand me, I do not fear that my children will ever intentionally =hurt another human being. I have watched them too often when we visit the =sick in hospitals, the aged in nursing homes, and care for the hungry, the =ill clothed the homeless in our shelter. I have seen my strong willed =child sit for hours talking to old people abandoned in nursing homes with =no one to visit them. I saw my oldest girl, visit the homes of children =of mothers imprisoned so she could photograph their children in foster =care and prepare a montage for the mothers to have something to remind =them of their children. I have seen my kids read to children in the =hospital wards. I know they have seen too much of the hardness of life =tempered by the essential goodness of humankind to ever be cruel or mean =spirited or consciously self serving at the expense of someone else. My =children value themselves and love their neighbor as themselves, but God =wants so much more, and there is where my fears begin. =Marilyn =Newsgroups: alt.parenting.solutions = =Marilyn...no, fundamentalism certainly isn't limited to the south, =though a recent study by Prof. Sandra Scarr did find that southern =parents were more likely to hit their children than northern parents. =She did find, as did researchers before her, that education level =of parents was one of the highest correlates; parents with more =education were less punitive with their children than were lesser =educated parents. = =Your lengthy post talks of the history of spanking children and =ties with fundamentalism. ONCE AGAIN, I AWAIT FOR A NEW TESTAMENT =QUOTE ADVOCATING THE HITTING OF CHILDREN AS A FORM OF DISCIPLINE.. =NOT WHAT BILLY SUNDAY SAID, NOT WHAT CALVINISM SAYS, BUT WHAT THE =BIBLE TEACHES! =Newsgroups: alt.parenting.solutions,alt.parenting.spanking =
=> > Prospank fundamentalists are so desperate to come => > up with some, ANY, New Testament support for their favorite childrearing => > practice, that they even resort to citing Hebrews 12, a passage about the => > relationship between the heavenly "Father" and his earthly "Children" => > which contains no advice whatsoever for earthly parents of earthly => > children. When deprived of this argument, they then start resorting to => > passages such as Ephesians 6:1 "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, => > for this is right," despite the fact that the plain meaning of verses say => > ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about hitting children! The fact is, there is no => > scriptural support whatsoever for spanking being a specifically Christian => > practice (as opposed to a Jewish practice). = => I'm going to jump in here with a message I found posted on a OneNet => => > <If we love our children as the Father loves us, then that is parenting....> => > Then what do you do with, Heb. 12:6 & 7 " For whom the Lord loveth , He => > chasteneth, and scoureth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure => > chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the => > father chasteneth not?" [snip] = = When read in its entirety, Hebrews 12 is plainly not a passage =about childraising. It is about the relationship of the heavenly "father" =and his earthly "children." All of the language about fathers and sons is =an allegory, used by the anonymous author of Hebrews 12 to teach that =Christians should not rebel against the chastenings of the Lord. = = The fact that religious prospankers cite Hebrews 12 so often, =despite its irrelevance, is an act of quiet desperation. This verse is =THE best they can do when challenged to come up with ANY New Testament =support for hitting kids. They are forced to use a couple of out of =context verses, from a chapter penned by an unknown impostor, to support =the prospanking interpretation they so desperately want to impose on some, =ANY, New Testament verse. How they yearn to scripturally justify hitting =children as a specifically "Christian" practice! The fact that they can =only come up with Hebrews 12 is tantamount to an admission of failure on =their part. = = In conclusion, I stand by my original contention that no =scriptural support for spanking exists anywhere in the New Testament. =Indeed, such would clash sharply with … read more »
Response:
Marilyn, So this is the perverted and disgusting filth that passes for Christianity in your circle, eh? The Lord Jesus Christ died in agony on the cross for this??? "…Woe to you scribes and Pharasees…all clean and white without, but inside full of dead mens bones and every kind of corruption…" I was right. The David Koresh’s and Jim Jones’ of the world are brought forth from this kind of disgusting filth. And just as those parents who tried to sell their children’s souls to Satan at Waco, parents like you continue in his wake. Jesus the Christ consigns no child to Hell, Marilyn. I was right about another thing: You understand the Bible as a series of disjointed verses and phrases which you’ve been taught to assign to stock questions and situations, but you don’t KNOW the Bible anymore than you know our Lord. It is when parents like you succeed in making your adult children twice as fit for Hell than you are yourselves that I pray He may have mercy on them. "…Who has believed our report? And to whom has the Arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew before him as a tender shoot, like a root out of dry ground. There was no beauty, no majesty that would attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by Men, and man of sorrows and familiar with suffering, like one from whom men hide their faces. He was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all." Christ gave us this magnificent gift all so that certain men would spread lies and deceit such as "Christ consigns rebellious children to Hell???" Satan has done his job well through you Marilyn. Because of you, your children will never question what they’ve been taught and therefore never know the Lord, only the imitation (Anti-Christ) which you’ve presented them. Blind guides! Blind fools! How can any of you escape damnation??? By the way…where does "mercy" fit in with all that filth? Gnosis
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