Pure Parents

Question:

That’s really strange, my original post disappeared! Oh well.

> Giving any child an excuse for why they should accept something that is > obviously wrong is to blunt the child’s intelligence and reason, and make > them feel it is unnecessary to change something that truly can be changed. > Absolutely. The younger child is basically learning that it’s OK to be > abused, and that his mother won’t protect him. Pretty damaging stuff for a 6 > y/o.

I was more referring to the older child thinking it is okay for him to be mean because he is ADHD and he ‘can’t’ change his own behavior.  I didn’t look at it from the POV you mentioned with the younger child though.  I totally agree with you there. > As far as tourettes syndrome goes, this is medically diagnosible.  If the > child doesn’t have it by actual test, then there is no legitimate reason for > the cussing. > This is actually mistaken. There is no test for TS. The dx is made by > observation and reporting of behaviors. Deliberately speaking to another > person with swear words is not a sign of TS.

Okay.  I’ll check my sources on this again.  It was my understanding that tourettes can cause involuntary vulgarity, but that it was actually due to damaged brain tissue. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think it is disgusting to put a child of 3 on any psychoactive agent. If > the child has a mean streak, then no doubt the med’s would have aggravated > it, in which case I’d be interested to see how the child is without the meds > (after being weaned off them by a competent doctor).  But the conflict you > describe here sounds no different than most siblings.  Siblings that didn’t > fight with each other and break each other’s things I’d consider to be NOT > normal. > It is sad that it is sometimes necessary to give psychotropics to young > children, but it is sometimes necessary. These drugs will not exaggerate a > mean streak. Some may increase agitation and irritability, but won’t make a > good kid go bad. That conflict is normal ok, this incident might also be ok, > but that the mother said it was a bad day, I would think this happens a lot. > That level of conflict happening often is not normal, and if the older boy > is allowed to scream at, threaten and break the toys of the younger w/o > intervention, it’s abusive for the parents to let it continue.

I believe that the research showing the ‘benefits’ of these drugs is fraudulent.  I have argued this with at least three dozen people, and am pretty certain that nothing will change my mind or yours regarding it if we start a discussion on it.  So let’s just leave it at the fact that we disagree widely on this one. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> However, usually cussing starts when the child observes other adults using > this language.  Children are copy cats by nature.  It may not be a copying > of the parents, but it can be from movies, video games, the parent’s friends > or even influence from other kids who grow up in such families where it is > allowed.  It sounds cool to them, they see it lets others blow steam, so > they think "why not use the words when I’m frusturated or angry too?" Has > she talked to her son to see if this is the case? > One thing your friend may want to consider is making her son the house > sensor, if that house needs one.  I ‘cured’ it with my daughter by making > her the house sensor.  Since then she never swears.  She made a lot of money > off of me in the beginning (25 cents per slip up), but it has curbed my use > of the words tremendously and she absolutely never uses swear words.  I have > even checked with her teachers to see if they have heard any while standing > off in the corner watching the kids, and they haven’t heard her swear once. > Sometimes we will substitute the word "Fruit" for the F word, and "Sheep" > for the S word if we just "have" to use an expletive.  Somewhere in the > Calvin & Hobbes comic strips are also some pretty interesting expletives > that you can use if you stubb your toe, that aren’t vulgar or offensive. > Sometimes when you get in an argument, the idea of your opponent being "full > of sheep" can be somewhat amusing. > I think this family has far greater problems than just swearing. Giving the > older kid something to be in charge of might help him, but it might also > give him one more thing to bully the household with. Hard to say w/o knowing > anything else, wouldn’t hurt to try it for a week or two to see which way it > goes.

Yeah, it wouldn’t hurt to try.  They probably do have greater issues, but they can only be handled one at a time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If she has given up, then she has perpetuated the problem and let him run > all over her.  With any child, normal or ADHD, it takes LOT AND LOTS of > consistency and repetition to get a behavior pattern followed, unless the > child is a good, compliant little robot. > True again. All kids need to know where the edges are, and that they will be > consistently there, and what to expect if they go over the edges. That goes > double for kids with ADD, and triple for kids with OD or CD. I don’t know > about the robot part, though. My daughter, for instance, is the best behaved > kid I have ever known, I’d have ten if I knew they’d all be this fun to > raise! It’s more pointing than parenting – if you know what I mean. She is, > however, in no way a robot or a doormat. She will say no – but usually not > w/o a reason, she speaks her mind, and thinks a purple shirt with orange > pants and navy shoes looks fabulous  : ).  Who am I to argue with that?

Your daughter sounds adorable. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> It is sad that it is sometimes necessary to give psychotropics to young > children, but it is sometimes necessary. These drugs will not exaggerate a > mean streak.

Nor will they treat it. If anyone expects them to they must be convinced that it does not. > That level of conflict happening often is not normal, and if the older boy > is allowed to scream at, threaten and break the toys of the younger w/o > intervention, it’s abusive for the parents to let it continue.

Screaming is fair, hitting and breaking other’s property is unfair. You must draw the line so that a person is left things they can do to express their displeasure fully, but not be free to do what is unfair. > True again. All kids need to know where the edges are, and that they will be > consistently there, and what to expect if they go over the edges. That goes > double for kids with ADD, and triple for kids with OD or CD. I don’t know > about the robot part, though. My daughter, for instance, is the best behaved > kid I have ever known, I’d have ten if I knew they’d all be this fun to > raise! It’s more pointing than parenting – if you know what I mean. She is, > however, in no way a robot or a doormat. She will say no – but usually not > w/o a reason, she speaks her mind, and thinks a purple shirt with orange > pants and navy shoes looks fabulous  : ).  Who am I to argue with that?

When you are nice to people they are nice to you. When you are nasty to people and violate their proper boundaries they are nasty to you and they will violate YOUR boundaries. Sometimes people get off on the wrong foot with each other. You must then retrench and refuse to abuse another person by violating their boundaries and tell them that IS what you are doing, and then only demand that they treat you fairly, and not violate YOUR boundaries; they don’t have to like you but they have to treat you fairly, they don’t have to obey you, but they must treat you fairly, and you will treat THEM fairly. This is what must be done with a any child with whom you are having trouble, you MUST conclude that you are doing as much wrong as they are, and then STOP YOUR PART of it, and announce that!!! Then they will see that is what you are doing. THEN after they see that to their satisfaction, they and you will again begin the process of becoming your friend and you theirs. Speech is always fair, no matter what kind, because it doesn’t hit or damage other’s property, which, if you take away the speech, would be their only recourse!!! Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> Now, I am not a great and wonderful OZ myself, but I do not allow >>>> children to cuss, >>> Your penchant to try to control what others say is like unto trying to >>> control what they think, it is unrealistic, unworkable, and abusive. >>> You need to learn that you can and should only be allowed to control the >>> criminality of someone toward another, and not the person’s decisions >>> that do NOT interfere with the rights of others. > First of all, all speech is not protected.

That just doesn’t matter, I’m talking about kids having the SAME speech rights as adults!  You can’t yell fire in a crowd, Sure you can, if there’s a fire! You can anyway if you take the responsibility financially for any injuries that result. > you can’t use "the seven dirty words" on TV,

Sure you can, that’s a myth from broadcast TV, it’s not even illegal on cable, it is merely the practice of companies serving a puritan public, and they REALLY LIKE being able to CHARGE you EXTRA to hear the SAME "dirty" words that you COMPLAIN about!! > you can’t joke about knives at > with airport security, and so on.

No one has been convicted of it. The Supreme Court agreed to hear it. It’s one of those "rules" that everyone seems to THINK is the law, because there are signs about it, but the signs are empty threats. > Parents teaching children what is and what > is not acceptable speech is part of the job – not a criminal act, not > abusive.

It is a criminal act morally to intefere with the freedom of speech. It is definitely abusive. You’re citing impossibilities, we’re talking about language at HOME, NOT in theaters, NOT in airports, etc! >>> This is totally normal, and it should be so. Come off it. Your being a >>> superstitious religious bigot, because there is no other cause to try >>> to change another’s speech. > There are many other reasons to do this, see above.

And you’re pretending that you need to bar all such behavior because of limited special unusual situations, and that’s as stupid as justifying beating your child half to death for picking his nose because he might accidentally stick his finger into his BRAIN or something, in other words you’re being ignorant. >> I must tell you what I see wrong with your position. >> Free speech has little to do with hate toward another person. > Of course it does, it is the reason that some try to suppress free > speech and therefore the reason the right is paramount!! > Your both right about this.  Groups who are all about hate have the right to > spew whatever garbage they wish. Protecting Nazi’s rights to march, is > protecting their right to promote their hate based agenda. Denying them this > be  suppression of free speech, something that hurts everyone.

ALL assaults of ANY KIND on Free Speech are obnoxious and objectionable to the entire human race because it is an effort to control thought, and that is reprehensible, it causes your children to believe you deserve being entirely deceived about anything, and you lose all your usefulness to their lives when they shut off honest communications that way! Kids have risked their life or health very often merely to avoid a parent’s assaultive abusive reaction, and that’s stupid! Steve

Response:

> Giving any child an excuse for why they should accept something that is > obviously wrong is to blunt the child’s intelligence and reason, and make > them feel it is unnecessary to change something that truly can be changed.

Absolutely. The younger child is basically learning that it’s OK to be abused, and that his mother won’t protect him. Pretty damaging stuff for a 6 y/o. > As far as tourettes syndrome goes, this is medically diagnosible.  If the > child doesn’t have it by actual test, then there is no legitimate reason for > the cussing.

This is actually mistaken. There is no test for TS. The dx is made by observation and reporting of behaviors. Deliberately speaking to another person with swear words is not a sign of TS. > I think it is disgusting to put a child of 3 on any psychoactive agent.  If > the child has a mean streak, then no doubt the med’s would have aggravated > it, in which case I’d be interested to see how the child is without the meds > (after being weaned off them by a competent doctor).  But the conflict you > describe here sounds no different than most siblings.  Siblings that didn’t > fight with each other and break each other’s things I’d consider to be NOT > normal.

It is sad that it is sometimes necessary to give psychotropics to young children, but it is sometimes necessary. These drugs will not exaggerate a mean streak. Some may increase agitation and irritability, but won’t make a good kid go bad. That conflict is normal ok, this incident might also be ok, but that the mother said it was a bad day, I would think this happens a lot. That level of conflict happening often is not normal, and if the older boy is allowed to scream at, threaten and break the toys of the younger w/o intervention, it’s abusive for the parents to let it continue. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> However, usually cussing starts when the child observes other adults using > this language.  Children are copy cats by nature.  It may not be a copying > of the parents, but it can be from movies, video games, the parent’s friends > or even influence from other kids who grow up in such families where it is > allowed.  It sounds cool to them, they see it lets others blow steam, so > they think "why not use the words when I’m frusturated or angry too?"  Has > she talked to her son to see if this is the case? > One thing your friend may want to consider is making her son the house > sensor, if that house needs one.  I ‘cured’ it with my daughter by making > her the house sensor.  Since then she never swears.  She made a lot of money > off of me in the beginning (25 cents per slip up), but it has curbed my use > of the words tremendously and she absolutely never uses swear words.  I have > even checked with her teachers to see if they have heard any while standing > off in the corner watching the kids, and they haven’t heard her swear once. > Sometimes we will substitute the word "Fruit" for the F word, and "Sheep" > for the S word if we just "have" to use an expletive.  Somewhere in the > Calvin & Hobbes comic strips are also some pretty interesting expletives > that you can use if you stubb your toe, that aren’t vulgar or offensive. > Sometimes when you get in an argument, the idea of your opponent being "full > of sheep" can be somewhat amusing.

I think this family has far greater problems than just swearing. Giving the older kid something to be in charge of might help him, but it might also give him one more thing to bully the household with. Hard to say w/o knowing anything else, wouldn’t hurt to try it for a week or two to see which way it goes. > If she has given up, then she has perpetuated the problem and let him run > all over her.  With any child, normal or ADHD, it takes LOT AND LOTS of > consistency and repetition to get a behavior pattern followed, unless the > child is a good, compliant little robot.

True again. All kids need to know where the edges are, and that they will be consistently there, and what to expect if they go over the edges. That goes double for kids with ADD, and triple for kids with OD or CD. I don’t know about the robot part, though. My daughter, for instance, is the best behaved kid I have ever known, I’d have ten if I knew they’d all be this fun to raise! It’s more pointing than parenting – if you know what I mean. She is, however, in no way a robot or a doormat. She will say no – but usually not w/o a reason, she speaks her mind, and thinks a purple shirt with orange pants and navy shoes looks fabulous  : ).  Who am I to argue with that?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a friend, who’s 10 yr old son has ADHD.  He is on Depacote ( > maybe spelled wrong) he has been on many medications since about age 3, > starting with Ritalin and it didn’t work, then something else, then on > and on. Well, thats not what I am going to ask about, though I have seen > ADHD kids, and have seen this one many times, and wonder if he has > anything other then what we used to call a "mean streak". > I was wondering how other parents of ADHD or other parents in general > feel about this. This morning while I was on the phone with the friend, > I heard in the background first the younger brother starts screaming his > head off and crying (He is 6) He is screaming that "Scott" is breaking > his toys on purpose. Mom is merily chatting on the phone with me ( she > had called me to ask me something about her computer class)  I said "Do > you need to see whats up with them?" ( I have 4 of my own, and we have > known each other since before kids, so this is not something odd for our > phone conversations, one of us to have to go to check on a child)  She > said "No, Scotts just having one of his days, its not even a new toy > that he broke"….la la….. we keep talking then I heard very loudly in > the background " I am gonna kick your F***** ass" and she said "see what > I mean about this not being a good day?"  I said "well, I’ll let you > go"  and she said no reason to, I can’t do anything about it. > Now, I am not a great and wonderful OZ myself, but I do not allow > children to cuss, not that I fool myself into believing that my 15 yr > old son and his friends sound pretty rank when they are not around > parents, but I would be floored if even my 12 yr old spouted something > like this off at a sibling.  EVER.  I can honestly say, I have never > heard my 15 say it to anyone.  I would reprimand them immediatley if > they did. > This friend of mine actually I have always thought was a little more > strict then I. She is rather strict with her own 14 yr old daughter, not > allowed to talk on phone, not allowed to go to school functions, ( since > parents arent’ welcome at school dances, and she doesn’t want her mom > with her at the football games). Can’t wear any makeup, fingernail > polish, shave yet, etc, almost as if she is not wanting her to grow up. > Anyway, I could not believe her when she said to me "You know, it does > no good for him if I try to tell him not to cuss, most ADHD kids cuss > all the time, sort of like with Tourettes, and I get mad because no one > seems to care that it is part of his problem." > She went on to elaborate about how it isn’t fair that he gets in trouble > for using the F word or MF everyday at school, and cussing at other > kids, and even she has had a store manager tell her that if she was > going to allow her son to talk to her like that ( she said he had called > her a F’n Cunt because she wouldn’t buy him gum) then they were not > welcome in the store. > Personally I have never heard this, and wonder how much is because she > has just given up and uses ADHD as an excuse for anything he wasnt to do > and so he does whatever he wants.  Does anyone else have any thoughts on > this? > As the parent of a 15 year old ADHDer, my own personal opinion is that your > friend is allowing her son to use his ADHD to get away with some pretty > reprehensible behavior.  (FWIW, my son, who is going into his sophomore year > in high schooll was officially given ‘permission’ to not get into trouble if > he swore in the house, but only ‘milder’ stuff.  I’m not going to ride him > at his age for daying ‘damn it’ in front of me…..but he still has limits > as to what is acceptable language inside our home.) > At age 10, however, the behaviors you’re describing would *not* have been > acceptable and your friend is wrong to pass it off as ‘all ADHD kids swear, > like Tourette’s…..because they don’t — if they’re not allowed to get away > with it. > Yes, ADHDers can often be oppositional…they can get angry and frustrated > easily….but they can also be guided and taught.  They *have* to be. > It sounds to me like she’s allowing her child to run the household and has > abdicated her responsiblity to guide him and teach him acceptable social > behavior.  If she can’t do it herself, then it’s important for her to seek > out professional help for herself, her son and her family.  Otherwise, she’s > doing everyone in her family a great disservice. > Leah

Well said!

Response:

>>> Now, I am not a great and wonderful OZ myself, but I do not allow >>> children to cuss, >> Your penchant to try to control what others say is like unto trying to >> control what they think, it is unrealistic, unworkable, and abusive. >> You need to learn that you can and should only be allowed to control the >> criminality of someone toward another, and not the person’s decisions >> that do NOT interfere with the rights of others.

First of all, all speech is not protected. You can’t yell fire in a crowd, you can’t use "the seven dirty words" on TV, you can’t joke about knives at with airport security, and so on. Parents teaching children what is and what is not acceptable speech is part of the job – not a criminal act, not abusive. >>> not that I fool myself into believing that my 15 yr >>> old son and his friends sound pretty rank when they are not around >>> parents, but I would be floored if even my 12 yr old spouted something >>> like this off at a sibling.  EVER. >> This is totally normal, and it should be so. Come off it. Your being a >> superstitious religious bigot, because there is no other cause to try >> to change another’s speech.

There are many other reasons to do this, see above. >>>  I can honestly say, I have never >>> heard my 15 say it to anyone.  I would reprimand them immediatley if >>> they did. >> Then you can be sure that you are being lied to massively and >> systematically. That is the only possible result to attempts to control >> others’ speech. You should know this and outgrow it in yourself. >> Steve > I must tell you what I see wrong with your position. > Free speech has little to do with hate toward another person. > Of course it does, it is the reason that some try to suppress free > speech and therefore the reason the right is paramount!!

Your both right about this.  Groups who are all about hate have the right to spew whatever garbage they wish. Protecting Nazi’s rights to march, is protecting their right to promote their hate based agenda. Denying them this be  suppression of free speech, something that hurts everyone. <snipped the rest>

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Now, I am not a great and wonderful OZ myself, but I do not allow > > children to cuss, > Your penchant to try to control what others say is like unto trying to > control what they think, it is unrealistic, unworkable, and abusive. > You need to learn that you can and should only be allowed to control the > criminality of someone toward another, and not the person’s decisions > that do NOT interfere with the rights of others. > > not that I fool myself into believing that my 15 yr > > old son and his friends sound pretty rank when they are not around > > parents, but I would be floored if even my 12 yr old spouted something > > like this off at a sibling.  EVER. > This is totally normal, and it should be so. Come off it. Your being a > superstitious religious bigot, because there is no other cause to try > to change another’s speech. > >  I can honestly say, I have never > > heard my 15 say it to anyone.  I would reprimand them immediatley if > > they did. > Then you can be sure that you are being lied to massively and > systematically. That is the only possible result to attempts to control > others’ speech. You should know this and outgrow it in yourself. > Steve > I must tell you what I see wrong with your position. > Free speech has little to do with hate toward another person.

Of course it does, it is the reason that some try to suppress free speech and therefore the reason the right is paramount!! >  I swear myself, > but I do not feel the need to use it toward someone.

No, you prevent your reflex to do so, you feel the need as everyone does. We don’t believe one should prevent oneself from one’s natural self-expression. >  Not everyone does,

Liar. > and > suggesting that not allowing kids to "fight" and talk mean to each other is > somehow "controling" them is not correct.

Talking is not fighting. Only criminals and people incapable of self-control believe that a verbal response by someone else justifies any physical response on their part! That includes parents who try to interfere with speech, it is a criminal act. > I suppose, that the main reason why > my kids do not cuss "at" each other, or call each other Mother F’ers etc, is > because they have not seen us to it to them or each other nor anyone else.

I’ll bet you anything they do it in their peer group, and do not around you merely because they know you will try to harm them for it. You do not get honesty out of people when you try to control their speech! That is the problem with trying that. > Stumping your toe and saying "dammit" is different then actully using the > words toward someone, to show anger or hate.

Anger toward an object versus toward a human. It’s the same, though. > I know my teen son says things > around his friends that he doesn’t around here, but also, watching some of the > videos of the group of friends skating, even though you hear off color words > when someone falls, or such, they still aren’t using these words toward each > other.  I hope you see the difference, we are not all predisposed to naturally > lash out at others.

One only lashes out at others if they feel that person has tried to perpetrate a criminal act toward them. But the words can be used as emphatics as well, unrelated to frustration with an object or person. > I still say I would be floored to hear my 12 yr old say "Im gonna kick your > F’n Ass" to his 6 yr old sister.

I think it is cute as long as the 6 year old doesn’t actually believe he will do that. >  I personally have never used a term like > that in anger, can’t say their father ever has either (but you should have > heard him when he nailed his hand down with a nail gun). Even though my kids > pick at each other, and get annoyed, they do not lash out at each other.  By > the way, I am a stay at home mom, who has kids in the room with me most of the > time they are home, or the younger ones out back with me, so I can’t say it is > because they do it when I am not around.  I am around 24/7 and take them to > school and home, so they are not alone together without me. > Just my opinion, > Sandi

You’ll hear this more and more as they get older. It’s natural. Steve

Response:

> Sometimes we will substitute the word "Fruit" for the F word, and "Sheep" > for the S word if we just "have" to use an expletive.

What delusional ignorance? Why not just speak french and cuss in english, or vice versa? Pretending you control thought by controlling speech is universally obnoxious and unacceptible to mankind. Steve

Response:

 Now that you brought Tourette Syndrome into the picture, it is my turn to speak up!  For starters…. >"You know, it does > no good for him if I try to tell him not to cuss, most ADHD kids cuss > all the time, sort of like with Tourettes, and I get mad because no one > seems to care that it is part of his problem."

Someone needs to explain to her that cussing is just one small symptom that a very tiny percent of those with Tourette Syndrome have.  Just because someone has TS doesn’t mean they cuss all the time.   And second….. >As far as tourettes syndrome goes, this is medically diagnosible.  If the >child doesn’t have it by actual test, then there is no legitimate reason for >the cussing.

Yes, it is medically diagnosible, well more like clinically diagnosible, but what "test" are you referring to?  There is no test that can diagnose TS, not to my knowlege, which is exactly why so many people go undiagnosed for months even years.   Kim "Give your heart wings or you will never fly…"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You know, it does >no good for him if I try to tell him not to cuss, most ADHD kids cuss >all the time, sort of like with Tourettes, and I get mad because no one >seems to care that it is part of his problem." >She went on to elaborate about how it isn’t fair that he gets in trouble >for using the F word or MF everyday at school, and cussing at other >kids, and even she has had a store manager tell her that if she was >going to allow her son to talk to her like that ( she said he had called >her a F’n Cunt because she wouldn’t buy him gum) then they were not >welcome in the store. >Personally I have never heard this, and wonder how much is because she >has just given up and uses ADHD as an excuse for anything he wasnt to do >and so he does whatever he wants.  Does anyone else have any thoughts on >this? >Sandi >–

I think your friend isn’t doing her son any favors and I really feel sorry for the little brother that has to put up with all of that.  I have a 15 year old son with ADHD, but he doesn’t really have a mean bone in his body. I’ve never even heard him swear (though of course he may when I’m not around) but at least he keeps his speech clean around me and our extended family. Mary HodgePodge:info on Homeschooling, Hereditary Spherocytosis and Fanfiction: http://hometown.aol.com/marimc25/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Now, I am not a great and wonderful OZ myself, but I do not allow > children to cuss, > Your penchant to try to control what others say is like unto trying to > control what they think, it is unrealistic, unworkable, and abusive. > You need to learn that you can and should only be allowed to control the > criminality of someone toward another, and not the person’s decisions > that do NOT interfere with the rights of others. > not that I fool myself into believing that my 15 yr > old son and his friends sound pretty rank when they are not around > parents, but I would be floored if even my 12 yr old spouted something > like this off at a sibling.  EVER. > This is totally normal, and it should be so. Come off it. Your being a > superstitious religious bigot, because there is no other cause to try > to change another’s speech. >  I can honestly say, I have never > heard my 15 say it to anyone.  I would reprimand them immediatley if > they did. > Then you can be sure that you are being lied to massively and > systematically. That is the only possible result to attempts to control > others’ speech. You should know this and outgrow it in yourself. > Steve

I must tell you what I see wrong with your position. Free speech has little to do with hate toward another person.  I swear myself, but I do not feel the need to use it toward someone.  Not everyone does, and suggesting that not allowing kids to "fight" and talk mean to each other is somehow "controling" them is not correct.  I suppose, that the main reason why my kids do not cuss "at" each other, or call each other Mother F’ers etc, is because they have not seen us to it to them or each other nor anyone else. Stumping your toe and saying "dammit" is different then actully using the words toward someone, to show anger or hate.  I know my teen son says things around his friends that he doesn’t around here, but also, watching some of the videos of the group of friends skating, even though you hear off color words when someone falls, or such, they still aren’t using these words toward each other.  I hope you see the difference, we are not all predisposed to naturally lash out at others. I still say I would be floored to hear my 12 yr old say "Im gonna kick your F’n Ass" to his 6 yr old sister.  I personally have never used a term like that in anger, can’t say their father ever has either (but you should have heard him when he nailed his hand down with a nail gun). Even though my kids pick at each other, and get annoyed, they do not lash out at each other.  By the way, I am a stay at home mom, who has kids in the room with me most of the time they are home, or the younger ones out back with me, so I can’t say it is because they do it when I am not around.  I am around 24/7 and take them to school and home, so they are not alone together without me. Just my opinion, Sandi — -Sure, I will get a life……        as soon as I figure out where                  to download one!- 25,000+ visitors can’t be wrong, Arizona Information is moving on.. Arizona Information, weather, pictures and more http://arizonainformation.freeservers.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a friend, who’s 10 yr old son has ADHD.  He is on Depacote ( > maybe spelled wrong) he has been on many medications since about age 3, > starting with Ritalin and it didn’t work, then something else, then on > and on. Well, thats not what I am going to ask about, though I have seen > ADHD kids, and have seen this one many times, and wonder if he has > anything other then what we used to call a "mean streak". > I was wondering how other parents of ADHD or other parents in general > feel about this. This morning while I was on the phone with the friend, > I heard in the background first the younger brother starts screaming his > head off and crying (He is 6) He is screaming that "Scott" is breaking > his toys on purpose. Mom is merily chatting on the phone with me ( she > had called me to ask me something about her computer class)  I said "Do > you need to see whats up with them?" ( I have 4 of my own, and we have > known each other since before kids, so this is not something odd for our > phone conversations, one of us to have to go to check on a child)  She > said "No, Scotts just having one of his days, its not even a new toy > that he broke"….la la….. we keep talking then I heard very loudly in > the background " I am gonna kick your F***** ass" and she said "see what > I mean about this not being a good day?"  I said "well, I’ll let you > go"  and she said no reason to, I can’t do anything about it. > Now, I am not a great and wonderful OZ myself, but I do not allow > children to cuss, not that I fool myself into believing that my 15 yr > old son and his friends sound pretty rank when they are not around > parents, but I would be floored if even my 12 yr old spouted something > like this off at a sibling.  EVER.  I can honestly say, I have never > heard my 15 say it to anyone.  I would reprimand them immediatley if > they did. > This friend of mine actually I have always thought was a little more > strict then I. She is rather strict with her own 14 yr old daughter, not > allowed to talk on phone, not allowed to go to school functions, ( since > parents arent’ welcome at school dances, and she doesn’t want her mom > with her at the football games). Can’t wear any makeup, fingernail > polish, shave yet, etc, almost as if she is not wanting her to grow up. > Anyway, I could not believe her when she said to me "You know, it does > no good for him if I try to tell him not to cuss, most ADHD kids cuss > all the time, sort of like with Tourettes, and I get mad because no one > seems to care that it is part of his problem." > She went on to elaborate about how it isn’t fair that he gets in trouble > for using the F word or MF everyday at school, and cussing at other > kids, and even she has had a store manager tell her that if she was > going to allow her son to talk to her like that ( she said he had called > her a F’n Cunt because she wouldn’t buy him gum) then they were not > welcome in the store. > Personally I have never heard this, and wonder how much is because she > has just given up and uses ADHD as an excuse for anything he wasnt to do > and so he does whatever he wants.  Does anyone else have any thoughts on > this? > As the parent of a 15 year old ADHDer, my own personal opinion is that your > friend is allowing her son to use his ADHD to get away with some pretty > reprehensible behavior.  (FWIW, my son, who is going into his sophomore year > in high schooll was officially given ‘permission’ to not get into trouble if > he swore in the house, but only ‘milder’ stuff.  I’m not going to ride him > at his age for daying ‘damn it’ in front of me…..but he still has limits > as to what is acceptable language inside our home.) > At age 10, however, the behaviors you’re describing would *not* have been > acceptable and your friend is wrong to pass it off as ‘all ADHD kids swear, > like Tourette’s…..because they don’t — if they’re not allowed to get away > with it. > Yes, ADHDers can often be oppositional…they can get angry and frustrated > easily….but they can also be guided and taught.  They *have* to be. > It sounds to me like she’s allowing her child to run the household and has > abdicated her responsiblity to guide him and teach him acceptable social > behavior.  If she can’t do it herself, then it’s important for her to seek > out professional help for herself, her son and her family.  Otherwise, she’s > doing everyone in her family a great disservice. > Leah

All you’re spouting is incompetent Rightist bullshit. Steve

Response:

Giving any child an excuse for why they should accept something that is obviously wrong is to blunt the child’s intelligence and reason, and make them feel it is unnecessary to change something that truly can be changed. As far as tourettes syndrome goes, this is medically diagnosible.  If the child doesn’t have it by actual test, then there is no legitimate reason for the cussing. I think it is disgusting to put a child of 3 on any psychoactive agent.  If the child has a mean streak, then no doubt the med’s would have aggravated it, in which case I’d be interested to see how the child is without the meds (after being weaned off them by a competent doctor).  But the conflict you describe here sounds no different than most siblings.  Siblings that didn’t fight with each other and break each other’s things I’d consider to be NOT normal. However, usually cussing starts when the child observes other adults using this language.  Children are copy cats by nature.  It may not be a copying of the parents, but it can be from movies, video games, the parent’s friends or even influence from other kids who grow up in such families where it is allowed.  It sounds cool to them, they see it lets others blow steam, so they think "why not use the words when I’m frusturated or angry too?"  Has she talked to her son to see if this is the case? One thing your friend may want to consider is making her son the house sensor, if that house needs one.  I ‘cured’ it with my daughter by making her the house sensor.  Since then she never swears.  She made a lot of money off of me in the beginning (25 cents per slip up), but it has curbed my use of the words tremendously and she absolutely never uses swear words.  I have even checked with her teachers to see if they have heard any while standing off in the corner watching the kids, and they haven’t heard her swear once. Sometimes we will substitute the word "Fruit" for the F word, and "Sheep" for the S word if we just "have" to use an expletive.  Somewhere in the Calvin & Hobbes comic strips are also some pretty interesting expletives that you can use if you stubb your toe, that aren’t vulgar or offensive. Sometimes when you get in an argument, the idea of your opponent being "full of sheep" can be somewhat amusing. If she has given up, then she has perpetuated the problem and let him run all over her.  With any child, normal or ADHD, it takes LOT AND LOTS of consistency and repetition to get a behavior pattern followed, unless the child is a good, compliant little robot. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a friend, who’s 10 yr old son has ADHD.  He is on Depacote ( > maybe spelled wrong) he has been on many medications since about age 3, > starting with Ritalin and it didn’t work, then something else, then on > and on. Well, thats not what I am going to ask about, though I have seen > ADHD kids, and have seen this one many times, and wonder if he has > anything other then what we used to call a "mean streak". > I was wondering how other parents of ADHD or other parents in general > feel about this. This morning while I was on the phone with the friend, > I heard in the background first the younger brother starts screaming his > head off and crying (He is 6) He is screaming that "Scott" is breaking > his toys on purpose. Mom is merily chatting on the phone with me ( she > had called me to ask me something about her computer class)  I said "Do > you need to see whats up with them?" ( I have 4 of my own, and we have > known each other since before kids, so this is not something odd for our > phone conversations, one of us to have to go to check on a child)  She > said "No, Scotts just having one of his days, its not even a new toy > that he broke"….la la….. we keep talking then I heard very loudly in > the background " I am gonna kick your F***** ass" and she said "see what > I mean about this not being a good day?"  I said "well, I’ll let you > go"  and she said no reason to, I can’t do anything about it. > Now, I am not a great and wonderful OZ myself, but I do not allow > children to cuss, not that I fool myself into believing that my 15 yr > old son and his friends sound pretty rank when they are not around > parents, but I would be floored if even my 12 yr old spouted something > like this off at a sibling.  EVER.  I can honestly say, I have never > heard my 15 say it to anyone.  I would reprimand them immediatley if > they did. > This friend of mine actually I have always thought was a little more > strict then I. She is rather strict with her own 14 yr old daughter, not > allowed to talk on phone, not allowed to go to school functions, ( since > parents arent’ welcome at school dances, and she doesn’t want her mom > with her at the football games). Can’t wear any makeup, fingernail > polish, shave yet, etc, almost as if she is not wanting her to grow up. > Anyway, I could not believe her when she said to me "You know, it does > no good for him if I try to tell him not to cuss, most ADHD kids cuss > all the time, sort of like with Tourettes, and I get mad because no one > seems to care that it is part of his problem." > She went on to elaborate about how it isn’t fair that he gets in trouble > for using the F word or MF everyday at school, and cussing at other > kids, and even she has had a store manager tell her that if she was > going to allow her son to talk to her like that ( she said he had called > her a F’n Cunt because she wouldn’t buy him gum) then they were not > welcome in the store. > Personally I have never heard this, and wonder how much is because she > has just given up and uses ADHD as an excuse for anything he wasnt to do > and so he does whatever he wants.  Does anyone else have any thoughts on > this? > Sandi > — > -Sure, I will get a life…… >        as soon as I figure out where >                  to download one!- > 25,000+ visitors can’t be wrong, > Arizona Information is moving on.. > Arizona Information, weather, pictures and more > http://arizonainformation.freeservers.com

Response:

> I have a friend, who’s 10 yr old son has ADHD.  He is on Depacote ( > maybe spelled wrong) he has been on many medications since about age 3, > starting with Ritalin and it didn’t work, then something else, then on > and on. Well, thats not what I am going to ask about, though I have seen > ADHD kids, and have seen this one many times, and wonder if he has > anything other then what we used to call a "mean streak".

That’s NOT ADHD. ADHD doesn’t involve hatefulness, merely excessive sensory irritability and frustration. This is a common mis-diagnosis based on a desire to control people with drugs. Actually a "mean streak" comes from severe parental abuse of the child that is being hidden by the parents for fear of retroactive prosecution. People who need to excuse their abuse often go looking for experts to help them, quite out of proper proportion to the actual severity of the disorder, in other words, they protest too much! Now, interestingly BOTH can be true of a child who was severely abused BEFORE they discovered a reason for it, but you have to have some vicious parents to start with. > I was wondering how other parents of ADHD or other parents in general > feel about this. This morning while I was on the phone with the friend, > I heard in the background first the younger brother starts screaming his > head off and crying (He is 6) He is screaming that "Scott" is breaking > his toys on purpose. Mom is merily chatting on the phone with me ( she > had called me to ask me something about her computer class)  I said "Do > you need to see whats up with them?" ( I have 4 of my own, and we have > known each other since before kids, so this is not something odd for our > phone conversations, one of us to have to go to check on a child)  She > said "No, Scotts just having one of his days, its not even a new toy > that he broke"….la la….. we keep talking then I heard very loudly in > the background " I am gonna kick your F***** ass" and she said "see what > I mean about this not being a good day?"  I said "well, I’ll let you > go"  and she said no reason to, I can’t do anything about it.

She is not living up to her responsibility to protect each of her children, if only from criminality by the other. Some of this is quite natural between siblings, but it is also quite natural for the process to be halted by adults. As often as not the younger child instigates it being a pest because he feels an age jealousy. > Now, I am not a great and wonderful OZ myself, but I do not allow > children to cuss,

Your penchant to try to control what others say is like unto trying to control what they think, it is unrealistic, unworkable, and abusive. You need to learn that you can and should only be allowed to control the criminality of someone toward another, and not the person’s decisions that do NOT interfere with the rights of others. > not that I fool myself into believing that my 15 yr > old son and his friends sound pretty rank when they are not around > parents, but I would be floored if even my 12 yr old spouted something > like this off at a sibling.  EVER.

This is totally normal, and it should be so. Come off it. Your being a superstitious religious bigot, because there is no other cause to try to change another’s speech. >  I can honestly say, I have never > heard my 15 say it to anyone.  I would reprimand them immediatley if > they did.

Then you can be sure that you are being lied to massively and systematically. That is the only possible result to attempts to control others’ speech. You should know this and outgrow it in yourself. > This friend of mine actually I have always thought was a little more > strict then I. She is rather strict with her own 14 yr old daughter, not > allowed to talk on phone, not allowed to go to school functions, ( since > parents arent’ welcome at school dances, and she doesn’t want her mom > with her at the football games). Can’t wear any makeup, fingernail > polish, shave yet, etc, almost as if she is not wanting her to grow up.

There’s no "almost" to it. That is abusive and creates a lifelong hate between the generations, and it prevents you from being any use to them at all, you might as well be dead. > Anyway, I could not believe her when she said to me "You know, it does > no good for him if I try to tell him not to cuss, most ADHD kids cuss > all the time, sort of like with Tourettes, and I get mad because no one > seems to care that it is part of his problem."

She’s confused about what causes what, but you cannot control others’ speech, efforts to do that are obnoxious and abusive, and they DON’T WORK! > She went on to elaborate about how it isn’t fair that he gets in trouble > for using the F word or MF everyday at school, and cussing at other > kids, and even she has had a store manager tell her that if she was > going to allow her son to talk to her like that ( she said he had called > her a F’n Cunt because she wouldn’t buy him gum) then they were not > welcome in the store.

The store manager is shooting himself and his stockholders in the foot, because that encourages reprisals of crowd-shoplifting and vandalism, and to my mind WELL DESERVEDLY!! Trying to control other people’s speech is universally offensive to all mankind. > Personally I have never heard this, and wonder how much is because she > has just given up and uses ADHD as an excuse for anything he wasnt to do > and so he does whatever he wants.  Does anyone else have any thoughts on > this? > Sandi

People are confused about great numbers of things, but it doesn’t mean that they CAN or SHOULD try to control others who are not behaving in a criminal manner toward others. And a criminal manner NEVER includes speech in a free society. Steve

Response:

> Oy, where to start! > First if all, if Ritalin had no effect, it may very well not be ADHD, or > that is not his only issue. There are other "Ds" – Oppositional Defiance D, > Conduct D, these sound more in line with the behavior.

The proper treatment in the books for supposed OD and CD are to leave the kid the hell alone, that you are trying to control them in an offensive manner, it is a disorder of the PARENT, not the child. > OTOH, if she takes so casual an attitude toward his behavior, that ALONE can > be the problem.

No, if she has allowed criminality to be rewarded then she must stop that to protect her kids from each other, but not trying to control another’s speech does NOT constitute casualness. > ADHD and the other Ds need a lot of structure, and tighter > limits than other children do. Ignoring his behavior is precisely the > opposite of what is usually told to parents of these kids. Ignore the > tantrums and name calling directed at you for enforcing a limit, yes, but > draw strong lines and impose consistent consequences when they are crossed.

Which is why you limit your battles to criminality or else you will find it impossible. > Zero tolerance. Abuse of a sibling is definitely crossing the line, as is > swearing. Her home is in the control of a 10 year old, that isn’t good for > anybody.

Freedom of speech in the home does NOT constitute control by the child, this is a myth. NO control in the home is the goal, and it must be modeled to be workable, that means no control unless the truly criminal line is crossed, and that is interference in another’s life and space. In fact you do not try to regulate speech precisely because then YOU are violating criminal limits and making a sham of that law by violating it YOURSELF!!! The human race universally finds attempts to control speech like unto efforts to control thought, mankind finds them to be obnoxious and unacceptible between civil humans, so don’t try it!! You will run into a literally GENETIC HATE response!! > Whatever you can do to get this mother to understand that she > needs to tighten up the discipline in her home and get this kid,

No, she needs to learn what actually CAN and SHOULD be done, and also what SHOULD NOT be done. Trying to exert control over everything will prove to her only that she can control absolutely nothing, which is why she has given up. Steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a friend, who’s 10 yr old son has ADHD.  He is on Depacote ( > maybe spelled wrong) he has been on many medications since about age 3, > starting with Ritalin and it didn’t work, then something else, then on > and on. Well, thats not what I am going to ask about, though I have seen > ADHD kids, and have seen this one many times, and wonder if he has > anything other then what we used to call a "mean streak". > I was wondering how other parents of ADHD or other parents in general > feel about this. This morning while I was on the phone with the friend, > I heard in the background first the younger brother starts screaming his > head off and crying (He is 6) He is screaming that "Scott" is breaking > his toys on purpose. Mom is merily chatting on the phone with me ( she > had called me to ask me something about her computer class)  I said "Do > you need to see whats up with them?" ( I have 4 of my own, and we have > known each other since before kids, so this is not something odd for our > phone conversations, one of us to have to go to check on a child)  She > said "No, Scotts just having one of his days, its not even a new toy > that he broke"….la la….. we keep talking then I heard very loudly in > the background " I am gonna kick your F***** ass" and she said "see what > I mean about this not being a good day?"  I said "well, I’ll let you > go"  and she said no reason to, I can’t do anything about it. > Now, I am not a great and wonderful OZ myself, but I do not allow > children to cuss, not that I fool myself into believing that my 15 yr > old son and his friends sound pretty rank when they are not around > parents, but I would be floored if even my 12 yr old spouted something > like this off at a sibling.  EVER.  I can honestly say, I have never > heard my 15 say it to anyone.  I would reprimand them immediatley if > they did. > This friend of mine actually I have always thought was a little more > strict then I. She is rather strict with her own 14 yr old daughter, not > allowed to talk on phone, not allowed to go to school functions, ( since > parents arent’ welcome at school dances, and she doesn’t want her mom > with her at the football games). Can’t wear any makeup, fingernail > polish, shave yet, etc, almost as if she is not wanting her to grow up. > Anyway, I could not believe her when she said to me "You know, it does > no good for him if I try to tell him not to cuss, most ADHD kids cuss > all the time, sort of like with Tourettes, and I get mad because no one > seems to care that it is part of his problem." > She went on to elaborate about how it isn’t fair that he gets in trouble > for using the F word or MF everyday at school, and cussing at other > kids, and even she has had a store manager tell her that if she was > going to allow her son to talk to her like that ( she said he had called > her a F’n Cunt because she wouldn’t buy him gum) then they were not > welcome in the store. > Personally I have never heard this, and wonder how much is because she > has just given up and uses ADHD as an excuse for anything he wasnt to do > and so he does whatever he wants.  Does anyone else have any thoughts on > this? > Sandi > — > -Sure, I will get a life…… >      as soon as I figure out where >                to download one!- > 25,000+ visitors can’t be wrong, > Arizona Information is moving on.. > Arizona Information, weather, pictures and more > http://arizonainformation.freeservers.com

Oy, where to start! First if all, if Ritalin had no effect, it may very well not be ADHD, or that is not his only issue. There are other "Ds" – Oppositional Defiance D, Conduct D, these sound more in line with the behavior. OTOH, if she takes so casual an attitude toward his behavior, that ALONE can be the problem. ADHD and the other Ds need a lot of structure, and tighter limits than other children do. Ignoring his behavior is precisely the opposite of what is usually told to parents of these kids. Ignore the tantrums and name calling directed at you for enforcing a limit, yes, but draw strong lines and impose consistent consequences when they are crossed. Zero tolerance. Abuse of a sibling is definitely crossing the line, as is swearing. Her home is in the control of a 10 year old, that isn’t good for anybody. The kid needs a thorough physical exam to rule out physical problems, and then a thorough psych evaluation to determine what the child’s dx is, and how to proceed with treatment. Who prescribed the Depakote? It is an anti seizure med that was found to have mood stabilizing effects as well. It’s pretty powerful stuff – up there with Lithium, and shouldn’t be given lightly. It won’t solve the problem, but it will sort of knock the top off the raging. Check out this sight, http://www.klis.com/chandler/pamphlet/oddcd/oddcdpamphlet.htm for some really good info and descriptions of different disorders. There is also a site by and for parents and others, http://www.conductdisorders.com that can help as well. Whatever you can do to get this mother to understand that she needs to tighten up the discipline in her home and get this kid, and her, some professional help, quickly. Good Luck!

Response:

I have a friend, who’s 10 yr old son has ADHD.  He is on Depacote ( maybe spelled wrong) he has been on many medications since about age 3, starting with Ritalin and it didn’t work, then something else, then on and on. Well, thats not what I am going to ask about, though I have seen ADHD kids, and have seen this one many times, and wonder if he has anything other then what we used to call a "mean streak". I was wondering how other parents of ADHD or other parents in general feel about this. This morning while I was on the phone with the friend, I heard in the background first the younger brother starts screaming his head off and crying (He is 6) He is screaming that "Scott" is breaking his toys on purpose. Mom is merily chatting on the phone with me ( she had called me to ask me something about her computer class)  I said "Do you need to see whats up with them?" ( I have 4 of my own, and we have known each other since before kids, so this is not something odd for our phone conversations, one of us to have to go to check on a child)  She said "No, Scotts just having one of his days, its not even a new toy that he broke"….la la….. we keep talking then I heard very loudly in the background " I am gonna kick your F***** ass" and she said "see what I mean about this not being a good day?"  I said "well, I’ll let you go"  and she said no reason to, I can’t do anything about it. Now, I am not a great and wonderful OZ myself, but I do not allow children to cuss, not that I fool myself into believing that my 15 yr old son and his friends sound pretty rank when they are not around parents, but I would be floored if even my 12 yr old spouted something like this off at a sibling.  EVER.  I can honestly say, I have never heard my 15 say it to anyone.  I would reprimand them immediatley if they did. This friend of mine actually I have always thought was a little more strict then I. She is rather strict with her own 14 yr old daughter, not allowed to talk on phone, not allowed to go to school functions, ( since parents arent’ welcome at school dances, and she doesn’t want her mom with her at the football games). Can’t wear any makeup, fingernail polish, shave yet, etc, almost as if she is not wanting her to grow up. Anyway, I could not believe her when she said to me "You know, it does no good for him if I try to tell him not to cuss, most ADHD kids cuss all the time, sort of like with Tourettes, and I get mad because no one seems to care that it is part of his problem." She went on to elaborate about how it isn’t fair that he gets in trouble for using the F word or MF everyday at school, and cussing at other kids, and even she has had a store manager tell her that if she was going to allow her son to talk to her like that ( she said he had called her a F’n Cunt because she wouldn’t buy him gum) then they were not welcome in the store. Personally I have never heard this, and wonder how much is because she has just given up and uses ADHD as an excuse for anything he wasnt to do and so he does whatever he wants.  Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Sandi — -Sure, I will get a life……        as soon as I figure out where                  to download one!- 25,000+ visitors can’t be wrong, Arizona Information is moving on.. Arizona Information, weather, pictures and more http://arizonainformation.freeservers.com

Response: