Question:
Thanks Kym, I’ll follow up on it. One note. I am presently taking a Growing Kids God’s Way course at church. I don’t find any in it that is even vaguely cult like. Now I will admit that many of the churches where it is use are somewhat cult like themselves but not all churches that use it. Tom
Response:
Ivy – hold your ground. This is NOT normal behavior. I know your confusion and your heartache. I also know how difficult it is trying to deal with the "troubled" child and not cheat the other children from their rightful attention. And don’t let anyone tell you that it is solely a "parenting" problem. Your child has a problem and he needs help dealing with it! Take it from someone who’s been there! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sound like a normal 10 year old boy (or girl for that matter) to me. > I am not so sure it is. I am not talking about normal complaining or back > talk. I am talking about full blown verbal attacks, often including swearing. > Nor am I talking about just him venting and choosing the wrong words. He is > literally verbally abusing his father and myself as well as his sisters and has > had a handful of incidents involving verbal attacks on school teachers, though > not as serious as what we see at home. > Maybe it is normal, but I would still like to have him evaluated. Even if it > turns out that this behavior is normal, I still could use some advice on how to > deal with this. > Ivy B.
Response:
>I would avoid the "Growing Kids Gods Way" program at all costs! It’s a very >cultist type class that has been reported over and over for causing >incidents of child abuse. Research it on the web before (and if) you even >consider enrolling such a program! >Liz
Liz, I’ve searched on "Growing Kids God’s Way" and have found nothing but Children’s Internationl’s web site. Can you give me any web sights critical of the program? BTW I am currently enrolled in the base Growing Kids God’s Way program and I don’t find anything cultic or abusive about it. Peace, Tom
Response:
Have hope! Our son, too, has been diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder. He is older than your son (15 when diagnosed, now 16). At first we just chalked it up to "teenager syndrome", but it got progressively worse until he was totally out of hand and blatantly refusing any parental interference in his life whatsoever. Counseling was the ultimate answer for us. We tried to handle it on our own, much as you have, with removal of privileges, etc. But in the end this was only a waste of time. While our son is still "difficult", counseling has been as beneficial to my husband and me as it has to our son in the respect that it has taught us how to deal with conflict situations. We still have occasional bad periods, but life is a little more stable these days. So keep your hope alive! If you find a good counselor, it will make a big difference! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, I am new here. Just found this NG and am also fairly new to the internet. > We have 3 children: girls 6 and 8 and our son is almost 10. The problem is > with our son’s behavior. We have tried to get him help but seem to hit brick > wall after brick wall. It has finally escalated to the point where people are > listening to us but still struggling with our HMO. Mental health bennifits are > extremely limited until he is officially diagnosed with a problem and it seems > like they are blocking every attempt to get a diagnosis. We have finally > gotten the "approval" to take him for an evaluation, but is still almost 6 > weeks away. In the meantime, I could really use some advice. > I am not even sure where to begin and to explain even a fraction of the > problems would take up way too much space and time here. His behaviors are not > "criminal" in any way, just extremely annoying. I think he may have > oppositional defiant disorder, based on my readings about it, but then again, I > am not a psychiatrist. I would just like to know how to deal with him when he > gets extremely "mouthy". In the last 6 months he has started to call us names, > outright refuse directions, get really sarcastic, etc. We try to focus on the > behavior, like if he isI told to pick up his toys and he mouths off but still > does what asked, then we try to ignore the fact that he got moutthy because he > did what was asked. But it just gets worse everyday. We have given him time > out in his room, but then he will sit in his room screaming the exact same > things that got him there in the first place. We tried removing TV priveledges > (1 hour of TV/Nintendo time for each incident regardless of how many names were > called per incident) but in a weeks time he had accumulated so many hours we > could not keep track. Are time outs enough? We I want him to know it is WRONG > to speak to anyone like that, and we have talked about managing anger, etc. > but NOTHING WORKS-this is happening CONSTANTLY. In a typical day he will have > 8 or more incidents. Even asking if he has homework to do can turn into a > screaming session on his part. We just don’t know what to do and am afraid > this will carry over into school (so far he has only done this a few times at > school). ANY ADVICE would be MUCH appreciated. BTW, NO ONE speaks like this > to each other in either immediate or extended family. Not to say we have never > yelled at each other or him, but it has never been like this and has always > been followed with an apology. (my son refuses to apologize for these incidents > because in his opinion he would not have to do it unless "provoked") > Sorry to run on so long. I expect once we can get him evaluated and start > therapy or whatever is needed, we will learn ways to cope, just looking for > something in the meantime. > Ivy Boleyn
Response:
>Maybe it is normal, but I would still like to have him evaluated. Even if it >turns out that this behavior is normal, I still could use some advice on how to >deal with this. >Ivy B.
If you have him evaluate be prepared for two things: #1: They will find something that will in all likelihood require some kind of pill to fix. I think institutional evaluations have their place. First for dealing with institutions. Second in extreme cases (this might very well be your case–this is what assoication with a parenting group will help you descern). #2: They will blame your parenting and in a secular "we don’t impose our values" setting they will have you do all sorts of psychobable stuff and when it doesn’t work they will blame you or your husband until you are driven nuts. This newsgroup is filled with good advise the best of which begins with the assumption that you know your son better than anyone else. Even if you get an evaluation don’t give up, use this to work on your parenting skills. Once again I think being involved in a church-type group setting helps give perspective. Peace Tom
Response:
I would avoid the "Growing Kids Gods Way" program at all costs! It’s a very cultist type class that has been reported over and over for causing incidents of child abuse. Research it on the web before (and if) you even consider enrolling such a program! Liz
Response:
I think it was good advise. Each child should be parented differently. You can’t throw a blanket parenting style at each individual child. I’m sure the other kids in the family would be appreciative of anything that would bring peace to the home. My younger brother had problems very similar to those of the original posters son. The situation was worsened by my father (my parents are divorced) and step mother trying to force my brother to behave "like the other" kids and not making special allowances for him to help him with his personal problems. I would not have resented my father spending extra time with my brother. I would have understood the reasoning. I wish my father had taken extra time out of his life instead of just trying to push my brothers bad behavior under the rug. My brother might not have so many problems now if he had! Liz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have you seen the book "Raising your Spirited Child?" by Mary Sheedy > Kurcinka? You might start there. From what you have described, I don’t think > you have a child with mental health problems. I think you have a child who > is intense and sensitive, and who is feeling very angry about a lot of > things. A big clue is that he says he is "provoked." Well, I think he really > is. The directions you give him and the questions you ask – things that may > seem perfectly reasonable to you – are provoking and upsetting to him. > Punishments like time-outs only increase his feelings of anger and > resentment towards you and make him more quickly provoked the next time. > Could you try, for a while, not to instruct him to do things? Don’t ask him > about his homework, don’t tell him to pick up his toys. Look for ways to > express your love for him – take him out for a milkshake. Go for a walk > together, and just talk about positive things, not his behaviour. Hug him if > he’ll let you. Pat him on the shoulder if he won’t. Play board games with > him. If the toys are left out, and it bothers you, pick them up yourself, > without complaining. He might even join in and help you. > When you have your relationship going well, you might be able to talk about > how he is feeling. Ask him how he feels when you ask about his homework, and > why it upsets him. Don’t criticize him – really try to find out what he is > feeling, and how you can help. If you read Kurcinka’s book – and her second > one, the Spirited Child Workbook – she has specific things you can teach > your child as ways to keep themselves calm when they feel their emotions > about to boil over. > Teresa >And if his kids are like mine, the other two will see how I go around picking >up the "troubled" child’s toys and don’t complain about it and then they start >leaving their toys out. Or when I don’t mention one’s homework the other >decides not to do theirs because they would rather play. Or I take that one >out for a milkshake, the others start complaining because "It isn’t fair." >That sounds like some advice that wouldn’t go over very well here. I am >interested in hearing how it would work in their house. Before you knew it, I >would have 3 "troubled" children on my hands.
Response:
Boleyn98 wrote >I definately agree that we need to build our relationship with our son. I am >hoping once we can get some help for him, we can also attend family sessions to >work on that. But I don’t feel the lack of a positive relationship falls >completely on us.
I didn’t mean this as a criticism of you at all. I know how tough it is to have a positive relationship with these intense kids. But I do think that, as the adults, you are the only ones who have a hope of doing it! He won’t initiate the improvements – not because he doesn’t want to (deep in his heart) but because he can’t. So it ends up being up to you. We love our son, despite his faults and would hope he loves >us in spite ours. We can’t communicate with him at all. He will not talk to >us and most the time won’t even stay in the room when we try to talk with him. >He doesn’t want to spend time with us. He would rather isolate himself in his >room with his books. We have tried. We have reached out. We will continue to >do so, but we can’t MAKE him want to talk with us or spend time with us.
This was why I was suggesting that it might help to back off on things as much as you can. I think that what often happens with kids like this (and I was one) is that pretty soon they start expecting every interaction with family, especially parents, to be a negative experience. This is what would happen with me: my parents would do or say something that upset me (and I would react intensely), I’d yell at them or get upset, they’d punish me, I’d be more upset and angry so that it took even less to get me upset the next time, I’d get punished again, and so on. So I would avoid them, just to avoid being in the middle of that. I think you can break that cycle, but it takes time – sometimes a lot of time. If you can convey to him that you like him, that you want to spend time with him, that you enjoy his company. (I know this is hard to do when you’ve been having such a tough time with him, but if you can lower your expectations for a while, I think it will be easier.) >As a single mother with four kids, I make a point of taking each of them out >for milkshakes (and other things) at different times. >I completely believe in 1:1 time with each child. My son has >NO interest in doing anything together with us 1:1 or in a family setting >unless it involves something totally irresistable (going to movies, amusement >parks, skating, etc.) Unfortunately we don’t have the finances to make those >things part of our 1:1 time with the kids.
You mentioned he liked books – what about a visit to the library with him, or a trip to the bookstore? I try to always take one child with me when I have to run an errand (anything from mailing a letter to picking up milk to returning videos) and sometimes we’ll stop for a drink. A can of Coke is a treat for my kids, and doesn’t cost much. If he does like things like going to the movies or going skating, could one parent do that with him while the other parent did something free or inexpensive (but still fun) with the other kids – like a trip to the playground or to an activity at the public library? I recognize that it will take some effort to help him enjoy being with you again, but I think it’s really important. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I do not believe that equal is the same thing as fair, and if there is any one >lesson the kids learn from me, I hope that is it. My son does not have the >same expectations as the other kids do and probably never will. He often is >excused from tasks that overwhelm him. The girls don’t like it, but that is >reality. But he also does not have the same priveledgs as the girls. He can’t >be trusted out of the yard unaccompanied so can’t walk to the neighbors to >play, for example. They understand that. But they would never understand why >he would not be required to clean his place after eating or to take a bath or >to put away his coat after school. These are basic tasks that we ask of him. >If I am running around doing these things for him, it would only cut into the >little time I have for spending with the kids.
I don’t think running around after him would be realistic, either. But I guess what I’m suggesting is trying not to turn these very small things into battles with him. If he comes home from school and drops his coat on the floor, for example, instead of hanging it up, it really would only take a minute to hang it up for him. And you could do it with a light comment "Whoops, I nearly tripped over your coat. Here, I’ll hang it up for you." That still lets him know that it’s his task, really, and that there is a reason for hanging it up (so you won’t trip over it) but it (I hope) keeps it from being a fight. And he just might hang it up the next day without anyone saying a word. I think something like clearing dishes from the table, when everyone is doing it, is usually less of a problem. If everyone else took theirs, and he left his on the table, you could try just leaving it there for a while to see if he would decide on his own to take it to the sink. Or if you’re preparing to wash them you could say, in a light way "I’m just starting to wash the dishes – can you bring me your plate now?" Not an order, not annoyed, just a request. It’s harder to get upset and angry about a request. I hope that if you get a chance, you will look at the "Spirited Child" books. You might find some ideas there that can help. Another book that I think has some good ideas and examples of children who sound a bit like your son is "The Seven Habits of Effective Parents" by Stephen Covey. I really hear in your messages how much you love your son, and I think that is what will make all the difference to him. I hope my thoughts don’t sound like criticisms, because that’s not what I intend – these are just my thoughts and experiences, and I share them in the hopes that you might find something useful in them. Teresa
Response:
My sister has two boys both grown now, but the oldest had problems similar to this during his adolescent and teen years. He had other problems earlier such as stealing small things and anger towards his brother. They had him seeing a psychologist for quite some time and it seemed that he had no idea of right and wrong. (Although he had been raised in a Christian family and attended church regularly.) Finally, at some point during his high school years, he was diagnosed ADHD. Once they put him on medication, he started to deal with his anger a lot better. Now he is in his last semester of college and he is doing very well. Most days he doesn’t need his meds, but he is aware of the situation and can handle it. Just knowing what the cause is helps deal with it. You may want to have that option checked out. They also say that sometimes ADHD and/or wild behavior is related to allergies. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sound like a normal 10 year old boy (or girl for that matter) to me. > I am not so sure it is. I am not talking about normal complaining or back > talk. I am talking about full blown verbal attacks, often including swearing. > Nor am I talking about just him venting and choosing the wrong words. He is > literally verbally abusing his father and myself as well as his sisters and has > had a handful of incidents involving verbal attacks on school teachers, though > not as serious as what we see at home. > Maybe it is normal, but I would still like to have him evaluated. Even if it > turns out that this behavior is normal, I still could use some advice on how to > deal with this. > Ivy B.
Response:
>I don’t find it helpful to get >after any kids about these things. In my experience, kids naturally want to >be helpful and cooperative,
My two other children LOVE to help out around the house. When my son was younger, he did a little, too. With the exception of a few unpleasant tasks (for some reason my middle child loathes hanging up her clothes, she will fold them and put them in drawers, but just hates hanging anything up in the closet, so I take care of it for her) I never have to get after them to do the work that needs to be done. Sometimes I must remind them because their definition of clean isn’t always mine, but I pick my times. I don’t walk in during their favorite TV show and say it is time for us to dust the house. But I can’t always join them in tasks. We try to make keeping the house a family responsiblity, but they have individual chores that are their chores alone, for which they get an allowance for. They are paid per chore. If they don’t do it, I do, and they don’t get paid. No harping on them about it, maybe just a gentle reminder to look at the chore list to see what has to be done. > I consider their homework to be their responsibility – >certainly I will help, if asked, but it’s otherwise between them and the >teacher. If they decide not to do it, then they will find themselves behind >in school, presumably, and will learn from that experience.
I totally believe this! I do NOT force or even initiate homework for my middle child (youngest does not have homework yet). She is responsible for getting started. She hates to get bad grades or be unprepared so she does it without being told. My son could care less about grades. Ideally, it would be nice to let him suffer the natural consequences of not doing the work, but these aren’t consequences to him. When his grades fall, he can not see that it is because he is not doing the work or that he isn’t listening to the teacher, he blames everyone else for the grade, essentially because no one DID the work for him. If he gets an F on a test, he does not care about that, he is just glad he got out of a few hours a week studying. We figure he has enough problems in his life without allowing him to blow off school and fall so behind that he will never catch up. Right now, he is maintaining a "C" average, I know if he applied himself he could do MUCH better (he is a very bright kid) but we are content to have him passing. >I think that before much else can be accomplished, >the parents need to get a more positive relationship going with this child. >Then you can tackle other things.
I definately agree that we need to build our relationship with our son. I am hoping once we can get some help for him, we can also attend family sessions to work on that. But I don’t feel the lack of a positive relationship falls completely on us. We love our son, despite his faults and would hope he loves us in spite ours. We can’t communicate with him at all. He will not talk to us and most the time won’t even stay in the room when we try to talk with him. He doesn’t want to spend time with us. He would rather isolate himself in his room with his books. We have tried. We have reached out. We will continue to do so, but we can’t MAKE him want to talk with us or spend time with us. >As a single mother with four kids, I make a point of taking each of them out >for milkshakes (and other things) at different times.
I completely believe in 1:1 time with each child. I think it is great you can find that time. I am married with 3 and it is difficult for me to find that time, so I really admire you for being able to manage that. I may not always get to take them out 1:1, but I always work in a weekly time for each child, we read, draw, talk, go for a walk, or whatever the child wants to do together. It isn’t so much what we do, it is just getting to spend time together without interruption of anyone else. My son has NO interest in doing anything together with us 1:1 or in a family setting unless it involves something totally irresistable (going to movies, amusement parks, skating, etc.) Unfortunately we don’t have the finances to make those things part of our 1:1 time with the kids. I do not believe that equal is the same thing as fair, and if there is any one lesson the kids learn from me, I hope that is it. My son does not have the same expectations as the other kids do and probably never will. He often is excused from tasks that overwhelm him. The girls don’t like it, but that is reality. But he also does not have the same priveledgs as the girls. He can’t be trusted out of the yard unaccompanied so can’t walk to the neighbors to play, for example. They understand that. But they would never understand why he would not be required to clean his place after eating or to take a bath or to put away his coat after school. These are basic tasks that we ask of him. If I am running around doing these things for him, it would only cut into the little time I have for spending with the kids. Ivy B.
Response:
>Sound like a normal 10 year old boy (or girl for that matter) to me.
I have to disagree here. I have an 11 year old son and i have seen nothing like this. This is not acceptable behavior and i would keep pushing the HMO for a mental health evaluation. Liz
Response:
> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have you seen the book "Raising your Spirited Child?" by Mary Sheedy > Kurcinka? You might start there. From what you have described, I don’t think > you have a child with mental health problems. I think you have a child who > is intense and sensitive, and who is feeling very angry about a lot of > things. A big clue is that he says he is "provoked." Well, I think he really > is. The directions you give him and the questions you ask – things that may > seem perfectly reasonable to you – are provoking and upsetting to him. > Punishments like time-outs only increase his feelings of anger and > resentment towards you and make him more quickly provoked the next time. > Could you try, for a while, not to instruct him to do things? Don’t ask him > about his homework, don’t tell him to pick up his toys. Look for ways to > express your love for him – take him out for a milkshake. Go for a walk > together, and just talk about positive things, not his behaviour. Hug him if > he’ll let you. Pat him on the shoulder if he won’t. Play board games with > him. If the toys are left out, and it bothers you, pick them up yourself, > without complaining. He might even join in and help you. > When you have your relationship going well, you might be able to talk about > how he is feeling. Ask him how he feels when you ask about his homework, and > why it upsets him. Don’t criticize him – really try to find out what he is > feeling, and how you can help. If you read Kurcinka’s book – and her second > one, the Spirited Child Workbook – she has specific things you can teach > your child as ways to keep themselves calm when they feel their emotions > about to boil over. > Teresa
And if his kids are like mine, the other two will see how I go around picking up the "troubled" child’s toys and don’t complain about it and then they start leaving their toys out. Or when I don’t mention one’s homework the other decides not to do theirs because they would rather play. Or I take that one out for a milkshake, the others start complaining because "It isn’t fair." That sounds like some advice that wouldn’t go over very well here. I am interested in hearing how it would work in their house. Before you knew it, I would have 3 "troubled" children on my hands.
Response:
Hi, I am new here. Just found this NG and am also fairly new to the internet. We have 3 children: girls 6 and 8 and our son is almost 10. The problem is with our son’s behavior. We have tried to get him help but seem to hit brick wall after brick wall. It has finally escalated to the point where people are listening to us but still struggling with our HMO. Mental health bennifits are extremely limited until he is officially diagnosed with a problem and it seems like they are blocking every attempt to get a diagnosis. We have finally gotten the "approval" to take him for an evaluation, but is still almost 6 weeks away. In the meantime, I could really use some advice. I am not even sure where to begin and to explain even a fraction of the problems would take up way too much space and time here. His behaviors are not "criminal" in any way, just extremely annoying. I think he may have oppositional defiant disorder, based on my readings about it, but then again, I am not a psychiatrist. I would just like to know how to deal with him when he gets extremely "mouthy". In the last 6 months he has started to call us names, outright refuse directions, get really sarcastic, etc. We try to focus on the behavior, like if he isI told to pick up his toys and he mouths off but still does what asked, then we try to ignore the fact that he got moutthy because he did what was asked. But it just gets worse everyday. We have given him time out in his room, but then he will sit in his room screaming the exact same things that got him there in the first place. We tried removing TV priveledges (1 hour of TV/Nintendo time for each incident regardless of how many names were called per incident) but in a weeks time he had accumulated so many hours we could not keep track. Are time outs enough? We I want him to know it is WRONG to speak to anyone like that, and we have talked about managing anger, etc. but NOTHING WORKS-this is happening CONSTANTLY. In a typical day he will have 8 or more incidents. Even asking if he has homework to do can turn into a screaming session on his part. We just don’t know what to do and am afraid this will carry over into school (so far he has only done this a few times at school). ANY ADVICE would be MUCH appreciated. BTW, NO ONE speaks like this to each other in either immediate or extended family. Not to say we have never yelled at each other or him, but it has never been like this and has always been followed with an apology. (my son refuses to apologize for these incidents because in his opinion he would not have to do it unless "provoked") Sorry to run on so long. I expect once we can get him evaluated and start therapy or whatever is needed, we will learn ways to cope, just looking for something in the meantime. Ivy Boleyn
Response:
Sound like a normal 10 year old boy (or girl for that matter) to me. I’d recomend enrolling in a parenting program like _Growing Kid’s God’s Way_ before doing the Psycho stuff first, espically since this attitude isn’t showing up in school. Peace, Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hi, I am new here. Just found this NG and am also fairly new to the internet. >We have 3 children: girls 6 and 8 and our son is almost 10. The problem is >with our son’s behavior. We have tried to get him help but seem to hit brick >wall after brick wall. It has finally escalated to the point where people are >listening to us but still struggling with our HMO. Mental health bennifits are >extremely limited until he is officially diagnosed with a problem and it seems >like they are blocking every attempt to get a diagnosis. We have finally >gotten the "approval" to take him for an evaluation, but is still almost 6 >weeks away. In the meantime, I could really use some advice. >I am not even sure where to begin and to explain even a fraction of the >problems would take up way too much space and time here. His behaviors are not >"criminal" in any way, just extremely annoying. I think he may have >oppositional defiant disorder, based on my readings about it, but then again, I >am not a psychiatrist. I would just like to know how to deal with him when he >gets extremely "mouthy". In the last 6 months he has started to call us names, >outright refuse directions, get really sarcastic, etc. We try to focus on the >behavior, like if he isI told to pick up his toys and he mouths off but still >does what asked, then we try to ignore the fact that he got moutthy because he >did what was asked. But it just gets worse everyday. We have given him time >out in his room, but then he will sit in his room screaming the exact same >things that got him there in the first place. We tried removing TV priveledges >(1 hour of TV/Nintendo time for each incident regardless of how many names were >called per incident) but in a weeks time he had accumulated so many hours we >could not keep track. Are time outs enough? We I want him to know it is WRONG >to speak to anyone like that, and we have talked about managing anger, etc. >but NOTHING WORKS-this is happening CONSTANTLY. In a typical day he will have >8 or more incidents. Even asking if he has homework to do can turn into a >screaming session on his part. We just don’t know what to do and am afraid >this will carry over into school (so far he has only done this a few times at >school). ANY ADVICE would be MUCH appreciated. BTW, NO ONE speaks like this >to each other in either immediate or extended family. Not to say we have never >yelled at each other or him, but it has never been like this and has always >been followed with an apology. (my son refuses to apologize for these incidents >because in his opinion he would not have to do it unless "provoked") >Sorry to run on so long. I expect once we can get him evaluated and start >therapy or whatever is needed, we will learn ways to cope, just looking for >something in the meantime. >Ivy Boleyn
Response:
(Boleyn98) writes: >He is highly sensitive, that is one of the >things we love most about him. We have never asked him to not be that way, >we >welcome anything he has to say, even the negative, but this is VERBAL ABUSE >to >us and others. >Perhaps it is just taking a normal phase too far.
My 15-y.o. son is much the same way. Our HMO (Kaiser) offers Temperment Evaluation and I’ve found that to be very helpful. My 15-y.o. is highly active and very intense: IOW, there is no middle ground with him. He’s either on Cloud 9 or in the depths of despair. Once we knew that, we could better pick what to ignore and what not to. I admit, however, that I ignore a lot of his verbal outbursts b/c I don’t want to deal with them. As a result, I often over-react. Have him evaluated. Check also for any learning disabilities that may be a source of frustration. My son does better with a written contract/chart that clearly outlines what behavior is expected and what the consequences are for not following that behavior. He also had real problems during the even years in school (Grades 2, 4, 6, & 
which coincided with the ages 8, 10, 12, and 14. He’s now in 9th Grade and having a pretty good year, although he’s still really mouthy at home. But his teachers and other adults tell us he’s very polite and respectful to them! B/c we spend so much time and energy with his problems, I try to make sure the other children aren’t neglected and that DH and I spend some special time with each of them. It’s not equal, by any means, but we try to be equitable–if that makes any sense. A book that helped me was "Your Challenging Child," by Dr. Stanley Tureki (spelling?). He had a "challenging child" himself and so is very sympathetic. Hope this "moral support" helps! Denise …all children have their own special challenges for their parents…
Response:
>And if his kids are like mine, the other two will see how I go around picking >up the "troubled" child’s toys and don’t complain about it and then they start >leaving their toys out. Or when I don’t mention one’s homework the other >decides not to do theirs because they would rather play.
Well, as you know from my previous writing, I don’t find it helpful to get after any kids about these things. In my experience, kids naturally want to be helpful and cooperative, and if I start picking things up, they usually join in. And I consider their homework to be their responsibility – certainly I will help, if asked, but it’s otherwise between them and the teacher. If they decide not to do it, then they will find themselves behind in school, presumably, and will learn from that experience. Now, I think some kids, depending on their personality, will accept a fair amount of direction and punishment. Others will blow up, like the child described in the letter. I think that before much else can be accomplished, the parents need to get a more positive relationship going with this child. Then you can tackle other things. Or I take that one >out for a milkshake, the others start complaining because "It isn’t fair."
As a single mother with four kids, I make a point of taking each of them out for milkshakes (and other things) at different times. I think it is very important for each of them to have this kind of positive one-on-one time with me, so I have worked hard to arrange that. The original posting only mentioned one child, so I didn’t go into that. >That sounds like some advice that wouldn’t go over very well here. I am >interested in hearing how it would work in their house. Before you knew it, I >would have 3 "troubled" children on my hands.
But it sounds as though you have children with a different type of personality, so I don’t think that would happen. Teresa
Response:
Im reading this and it sounds alot like my son. My son is 8 and the doctors give him diferent dignoses for his problem(OD being one) but im not interested in that i keep telling them i neen help with him. I have 3 kids 5,8 and 10. Only the middle child is like this so i know its not me for i blamed myself for years. He just needs to be parented differently. When he was younger his time-out consisted of him leaving the situation(usually very mad) and him telling me 5 times what he did wrong(i ask him first waht he thinks he did then correct him if necesary) He has problems sitting still ADHD the other dignoses and this worked better than the comment time outs for he was verbally telling me what he did wrong so his mouth was to busy to yell butthead at me again.(he didnt learn bad words till recentally from school) this method of time out i still use but he says it 8 times now that he is 8. Today he was in his bull in china shop mood again(i call it this for i dont think he really relizes how destructive he is) SO i had to keep him busy for if he gets to board he does things like pull up the tile i just put down in the bathroom or destroy the little playhouse his sister made. I knew time out would not work for he really had no idea that she would get that upset(she thinks her brother just messes everything up anymore)SO i had him WRITE an apolegy to his sister. He does have learning dificulties another dignoses so this was real hard for him to do and all i asked was for him to write "I am sorry sister" (her name) and he was mad but did it so i think that helped today in getting him to understand just a little. He has a tendcy to blame everyone else for what he does or the object instead of taking the blame himself. When he acedently ran into a little girl on his bike(she may of walked in frount of him and he wasent going that fast ..she wasnet hurt)He blamed first the girl, then his bike and then everyone out there for getting in his way and he had to go that way. Well first i took his bike away and of course i get that "Fine i didnt want to ride it anyway" SO i had to think of something else again that makes him think istead of just getting mad(thats what time out is spose to do)Well i sat down and esplained to him if i was to run into someone in the car i would get a speeding ticket for failiure to control my vechicle and started to write him a ticket for not being in control of his bike. This is another good THINKER that worked for he did not want that ticket and he was apolgizing(with meaning) to everyone talking his way out of that ticket. i didnt have the heart to give him the ticket he got the point. I also never take anything aways he earned and his displine cant last long or he just gets mad and has no idea anymore what he did he focuses on that he is in trouble and loses the whole concept. I made a points system that gives him points for everything he does and at 100 points i have a suprize box of wraped hotwheels.(under dollar and makes him want to do things) I used excel and just listed chores and simple everyday tasks(hang back pack to help clear table…even have bath on there) but i have broke down the simplest things for him to help him. like setting table is:: set plate, set cups, set forks, milk(you get the point) and he isent as frustrated to what i want its written for him and/or its told to him as simple as posible and i see he isent as defient when he has only one thing to focus on at a time …its like going into someome elses house and were told to clean it ( put everything where it belongs) would you have slight(major for me) confusion as to what to do then that frustrated feeling comes to you that makes a child act out (some adults) does that make more sence to understanding some of why your son may be so defient too. I use more awards like the TV is a reward not a privalege so he cant lose TV time for he earned that time(hope that makes sence) I hoped i helped somewhat in telling you what works for me with him. feel free to e-mail me and ill write you another novel for your visual boardom…
Response:
I HIGHLY recommend a book called, "Bringing Kids Up Without Tearing Them Down" by Dr. Kevin Leaman. Dr. Leaman has 5 kids of his own and seems to know what he is talking about. In the book, he discusses several strategies for dealing with kids, including one strategy called "reality discipline". He strongly advises making the child responsible for his/her own actions and letting the child feel the consequences of those actions (both good and bad). For instance, when his own 14 year old son overslept and was late for school and asked him for a note to get into school, Dr. Leaman wrote, "My son is late for school today because he overslept". The child then had to deal with the consequences of his actions (or in this case inaction.. not getting up when his alarm went off). Dr. Leaman also goes into detail about what are appropriate responsibilites for children at different ages. ~Jan
Response:
>That sounds like some advice that wouldn’t go over very well here. I am >interested in hearing how it would work in their house. Before you knew it, >I >would have 3 "troubled" children on my hands.
Me too! For the record, my son’s language and verbal tantrums are not the only issues we have with him. Truancy (yes, at 9), refusal to accept any responsibility for his actions (he always blames someone else when he does something wrong), poor social relationships, when he is not in a "rage" he seems depressed and moody, and many, many more problems. He is highly sensitive, that is one of the things we love most about him. We have never asked him to not be that way, we welcome anything he has to say, even the negative, but this is VERBAL ABUSE to us and others. Perhaps it is just taking a normal phase too far. I just can’t see it that way right now. Obviously I am not the most objective person in this situation. Both our PCP doctor and the couselor at school feel the evaluation needs to be done, if for any reason, to rule out other causes for this. Ivy
Response:
>Sound like a normal 10 year old boy (or girl for that matter) to me.
I am not so sure it is. I am not talking about normal complaining or back talk. I am talking about full blown verbal attacks, often including swearing. Nor am I talking about just him venting and choosing the wrong words. He is literally verbally abusing his father and myself as well as his sisters and has had a handful of incidents involving verbal attacks on school teachers, though not as serious as what we see at home. Maybe it is normal, but I would still like to have him evaluated. Even if it turns out that this behavior is normal, I still could use some advice on how to deal with this. Ivy B.
Response:
His behaviors are not – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"criminal" in any way, just extremely annoying. I think he may have >oppositional defiant disorder, based on my readings about it, but then again, I >am not a psychiatrist. I would just like to know how to deal with him when he >gets extremely "mouthy". In the last 6 months he has started to call us names, >outright refuse directions, get really sarcastic, etc. We try to focus on the >behavior, like if he isI told to pick up his toys and he mouths off but still >does what asked, then we try to ignore the fact that he got moutthy because he >did what was asked. But it just gets worse everyday. We have given him time >out in his room, but then he will sit in his room screaming the exact same >things that got him there in the first place. We tried removing TV priveledges >(1 hour of TV/Nintendo time for each incident regardless of how many names were >called per incident) but in a weeks time he had accumulated so many hours we >could not keep track. Are time outs enough? We I want him to know it is WRONG >to speak to anyone like that, and we have talked about managing anger, etc. >but NOTHING WORKS-this is happening CONSTANTLY. In a typical day he will have >8 or more incidents. Even asking if he has homework to do can turn into a >screaming session on his part. We just don’t know what to do and am afraid >this will carry over into school (so far he has only done this a few times at >school). ANY ADVICE would be MUCH appreciated. BTW, NO ONE speaks like this >to each other in either immediate or extended family. Not to say we have never >yelled at each other or him, but it has never been like this and has always >been followed with an apology. (my son refuses to apologize for these incidents >because in his opinion he would not have to do it unless "provoked")
Have you seen the book "Raising your Spirited Child?" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka? You might start there. From what you have described, I don’t think you have a child with mental health problems. I think you have a child who is intense and sensitive, and who is feeling very angry about a lot of things. A big clue is that he says he is "provoked." Well, I think he really is. The directions you give him and the questions you ask – things that may seem perfectly reasonable to you – are provoking and upsetting to him. Punishments like time-outs only increase his feelings of anger and resentment towards you and make him more quickly provoked the next time. Could you try, for a while, not to instruct him to do things? Don’t ask him about his homework, don’t tell him to pick up his toys. Look for ways to express your love for him – take him out for a milkshake. Go for a walk together, and just talk about positive things, not his behaviour. Hug him if he’ll let you. Pat him on the shoulder if he won’t. Play board games with him. If the toys are left out, and it bothers you, pick them up yourself, without complaining. He might even join in and help you. When you have your relationship going well, you might be able to talk about how he is feeling. Ask him how he feels when you ask about his homework, and why it upsets him. Don’t criticize him – really try to find out what he is feeling, and how you can help. If you read Kurcinka’s book – and her second one, the Spirited Child Workbook – she has specific things you can teach your child as ways to keep themselves calm when they feel their emotions about to boil over. Teresa
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