Pure Parents

Question:

 -=> Quoting Tromp loi to All <=-  > Thank you very much for your opinions. They are very much like my own. My  Tl> daughter (7) > would never dream of hitting me. Well, let me rephrase  Tl> that, she would never dream of > hitting me again.  Tl> Exactly!!!!!!  For the parents still "discussing" hitting with the 4  Tl> and 5 yr olds, you have to ask yourself if what you are doing is  Tl> working.  If it works for you then I guess that’s what counts.  My  Tl> tolerance level is just lower.  Tl> Cheryl it looks as though its you and me, but that’s okay.  8o) You have another supporter here.  I use spanking as a last resort… depending on the offense and attitude of my children.  For instance, my daughter is 17 months old…she is so sensitive, that a firm ‘NO’ works well to stop whatever behavior she is engaged in.  It also hurts her feelings so bad, that a spanking would be detrimental in her case at this time.  My son, who is 3 1/2 on the other hand, is another story.  He’s stubborn, hardheaded, and a mischevious little devil (said with affection)  Time outs work for most things (though he just does them again later), but a few things we won’t tolerate..such as hitting, biting (which he’s only done once, long ago) and shoving or kicking his little sister.  If he shoves his sister or pushes her down, we show him what if feels like (ie, he gets a shove).  He’s never been a ‘hitter’..we don’t rough-house with him, or encourage rough play.  Today however, he came up to me and slapped me, not in anger, but in play.  So I slapped him back, not hard, but enough to get his attention and said, "See what it feels like?"  He came for a hug and got one.  It’s a matter of matching the punishment with the offense… If life was a highway, I’d be in a ditch. Bright Blessings .. Change appears to be the only constant. ===  Posted via Warlock’s Haven BBS, Panama City, Florida  1-850-785-7944  Fidonet 1:3608/3

Response:

 -=> Quoting Zombiie to All <=-  Zo> I used to swat my son (1 year), having been spanked myself as a child  Zo> I  always thought it was "normal". But a week or so ago I decided that  Zo> it  wasn’t helping and simply left him crying and me feeling guilty.  Zo> Now if  he is doing something "bad" (like pulling up the heat registers  Zo> – why on  earth aren’t those things childproof?), I tell him "no" and  Zo> take him  somewhere else in the house to play. Interestingly enough, he  Zo> actually  seems better behaved and is certainly happier! I have no  Zo> intention of  letting him be a spoiled brat, but spanking isn’t the  Zo> answer and just  doesn’t work, IMHO. It’s just a chance for frustrated  Zo> parents to let out  their anger. This sends the wrong messages, such as  Zo> Laura mentions. — Certainly, spanking frequently and for minor offences does NOT work.  If a parent is going to spank, I think it’s better to save that particular punishment for serious problems, things that just CANNOT be repeated.  If spanking is not a common occurance, the child is going to remember it together with the offense a lot better than they would if they got spanked for something 2 or 3 times a day.  And it certainly shouldn’t be done in anger, for it communicates the wrong message, ie, not that the behavior itself was wrong, but it’s wrong to anger Mommie, etc. Just a thought… If life was a highway, I’d be in a ditch. Bright Blessings .. MirageBorg: Any other net is irrelevant. ===  Posted via Warlock’s Haven BBS, Panama City, Florida  1-850-785-7944  Fidonet 1:3608/3

Response:

> I told him to go back and if he came out again before I said so, I would > smack him. I asked him did he understand, he said yes. Two minutes later, > he came out again. So I smacked him, and told him to go back and if he came > out again before I said so I would smack him again, only harder. So he came > out again, so I smacked him again … eventually he stayed put for about 20 > minutes. When he had calmed down, he came down again. OK, spankers, where > would you go from here? You don’t have anywhere to go, do you – you’ve used > your ultimate sanction, repeatedly, and to no effect.

People might argue with me for saying this, but it’s the ones with the "disorders" that need the most understanding.  What you’re doing is training a circus animal.  He didn’t do what I wanted – hit him.  He didn’t listen – hit him *harder*.  What next, Andy?  You gonna get yer whippin’ stick?  Gonna tell junior to run out back and get you a switch? You not listening, boy!  Quitcher cryin’ or I’m-a-gonna give you sumptin to cry *about*!  Yer only makin’ it worse junior!  This is gonna hurt me more than it does you! So Andy…when did you stop beating your wife?  If your "final solution" doesn’t work, maybe you don’t understand the problem. — Brian Ream                                         Kalamazoo Michigan

Response:

>So we sympathise with the non-smacking lobby, but not just for "mainstream" >reasons. In the case of my son, it does not even achieve a desired effect – >and it certainly doesn’t make us feel any better. What we want to know is, >exactly how are we supposed to teach him what constitutes bad behaviour, >and why, and why it is unacceptable? We have very limited scope for use of >non-verbal cues to head off potential bad behaviour before it gets going, >limited scope for verbal reasoning, and more time in the average week with >more need for a solution than most normal parents could probably conceive >of as realistically possible. >Grateful for any and all inputs, either to the group or to home, >Andy Spragg

Hi Andy I am sorry that you are having such a tough time of it.  I must confess, I have had very limited experience (ok, none) with children who have the kinds of special needs your kid does.  I can only recommend a book that I have read that may help you talk to your son and get through to him.  It is really a superb book, and it deals with the very problem you seem to be facing now:   communication.  Please give it a try, you might find it helpful.  The books is: Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish, "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk" 1980, Avon Books. In the meanwhile, I urge you to please not hit your kid, even though I know you must be very frustrated. Good luck theorist – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sorry this is so long but this is a very emotionally charged issue with >me, because if >: more of us stuck with old-fashioned parenting and dropped the >"attachment-parenting >: whatever-feels-good-do-it" crap there would be many more pleasant >children in this >: world. >I am sorry, but I must take issue with this. I haven’t heard a more >judgemental and offensive remark in a long time.  I would never dismiss >your parenting methods just because they don’t work for me, much less >talk about them as though they are ‘less than’ or CRAP, to use your >word. >I will not go into how attachment parenting has worked wonders not only >for my son, but for me as a WOMAN, and as a MOTHER, and as a human >being. It would be wasted on you, as you have already made your decision >as to how you view the concept. >I will say, however, that if this subject is so ‘emotionally charged’ >for you, that you would do well to watch your tone so as to avoid >confrontation. This is an emotionally charged issue, but it CAN be >handled without acting like children in a sand box slinging dirt at >eachother. >For those who have read this far, attachment parenting is NOT about ‘do >what you want’, that is a load of crap. Do some reading before you start >throwing around cheap shots.

I totally agree, Kristina.  Sadly, many people view anti-spanking as anti-discipline.  But that’s really not what it’s about at all.  Parents can still be firm and set limits without hitting their children.  I love my children, and I am willing to try just about any method of discipline outside of hitting them, humiliating them or making them fear me.  This approach has certainly worked for me so far.   chiz, theorist – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Kristina

Response:

> Could you please use slightly shorter line lengths? On many systems, > lines of more than 78 characters are truncated or wrap to another line > as they did above. Makes it very hard to read…

never had anyone tell me this before, I’ll have to hit return periodicallyso bear with me. . . . . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My philosophy on babyproofing is if the child is less than 18 months old > or so, and you have things that you really don’t want them to touch, put > them where they can’t reach it or it *will* be handled. Young babies > explore–that’s how they learn, and punishing them for grabbing that > interesting thing that’s left in easy reach is absurd, IMO. Once the > child is a year old or so I think it makes sense to start saying ‘no’ > and removing the object or the child, but to expect them to ignore stuff > that’s been left out before they are two or so is unreasonable. > As for very young children exploring other people’s un-babyproofed > houses, I’ve got two words for you: parental vigilance. > : And Laura, if you read ANY of my posts then you would see that > : I use spanking as a FINAL solution and when the behavior is severe, I > : specifically said (biting, hitting, spitting etc), not because they got into > : something they shouldn’t.  Perhaps you should read more carefully before > : you go > : popping off. > Well, your post was not specific about the penalty for unauthorized > exploration in your house. You and the other poster seemed so proud of > your use of spanking that I guess I made an incorrect assumption. Sorry. > BTW, what *is* the punishment for touching things they shouldn’t–and at > what age did you start using that punishment?

As soon as my sons started crawling and getting into things I started saying no.I have never moved a single thing in my house in the almost 4 years there have been boys here.  Around 8 mos or so, when they would go for things down low, I say "Matthew no" he looks at me, I reiterate, "you can’t have that buddy but you can have this" (whatever this is).  he either moves on or keeps going, then I move closer, "Matthew no" usually 2-3-4 times ( while still trying to distract him and/or move him away) and then if this fails a (and I hesitate to use this word) smack on the back of the hand.  He gives up.  The next time, (usually later that day at first) I say "Matthew no" and he moves on.  As he gets older the attempts to touch are fewer and the no’s are fewer and the smacks are almost non-existant. > Just out of curiosity, you say that spanking is the FINAL solution? So > you’ve never had to use it more than *once*, right?

You sure can be condescending, I thought you were the one who wantedto handle this like adults?  If nothing else works (as stated above) then a smack on the hand will follow.  I, by the way, lump this "smack" in with spanking.  I have not spanked my 14 month old on the bottom, don’t need to, he hasn’t done anything to warrant that and I can’t remember the last time I layed a hand (except to hug or kiss or smother some other way) my oldest.  As far as *once*, he has never hit me ( I said that already) and he bit me once at about 2.  Do your "other-than-spanking" techniques work the first time you use them?  Does your question imply that it is a moot point then, because then any form of discipline would be IMO. > Hope the lines are easier to read.

Sheri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

It’s a difficult situation you’re in and I’m not sure how to respond but, when my daughter was ~3 and we needed to get the point that she needed to stay in her room across we would gently and firmly physically restrain her (sit on her bed with her and hold her there) until she agreed to stay put. It took only a couple of repetitions before she got the idea. Your mileage may vary. -Alexis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > Just subscribed to this group tonight because we’re starting to reach the > end of our tether with our 8 year old son. Didn’t catch the original > posting, but I’ve read all the follow-ups and this is the sort of thread I > wanted to get into. > Far as I can make out, everyone who posted so far is at least arguing from > the position of a parent with "normal" children, about whom "normal" > conclusions can be drawn. Well, we’re not in that position. We have two > children aged 9 and 7, both of whom have communication disorders, and I’d > appreciate any feedback from any parents in a similar situation – no > disrespect to anyone else, but most of the postings in this thread so far > make implicit assumptions which are of limited utility when communication > disorder complicates the picture. > When I was a child, I was spanked pretty seldom, as far as I recall – > probably because my Dad didn’t need to. He just had to adopt a particular > tone of voice and it made me feel ill with fear. Quite how he managed to > achieve it I don’t recall, and in any case it certainly isn’t an ability I > aspire to now I’m a parent. What I do aspire to is an ability to teach my > kids the difference between good and bad behaviour, without instilling fear > and if at all possible without smacking – but at the moment I don’t seem to > be doing very well at all. > Not a day goes by without at least one prolonged confrontation with our > son, invariably initiated by him for any of a number of reasons – many of > which would simply not arise with normal children and which normal parents > would be open-mouthed with incomprehension if they were to observe – and he > absolutely will not accept, ever, that the last word belongs to parents. > Now this would be bad enough with a "normal" child (and I would contend > that it would almost never happen with a "normal" child anyway) – but this > is a child with a normal IQ and yet a very rudimentary ability to pick up > on non-verbal and social cues, an impaired ability to comprehend language > and an equally limited ability to formulate his own language, and a > seemingly unlimited capacity for perseveration. > Take today. He had been to a playscheme where he behaved badly. He came > home and behaved badly for the next two hours. Then he asked me to play > Monopoly. I said no because he had been behaving badly. Now I’d been at > work so I didn’t observe most of this, but it had been going on for about > four hours on and off (mostly on), so I didn’t think it was reasonable to > just act as if nothing had been going on. Bingo – conflict time, and I know > at the outset that there is zero precedent for any outcome except > eventually I will give up trying to explain and send to him to his room > because I don’t want to spend until his bedtime arguing to no avail. OK, > non-spankers, he comes down 2 minutes later – so what do I do? Am I wrong > in imagining that if most parents told their 9 year old to go to his room, > he would understand it was because he had been very naughty and would do > it? > I told him to go back and if he came out again before I said so, I would > smack him. I asked him did he understand, he said yes. Two minutes later, > he came out again. So I smacked him, and told him to go back and if he came > out again before I said so I would smack him again, only harder. So he came > out again, so I smacked him again … eventually he stayed put for about 20 > minutes. When he had calmed down, he came down again. OK, spankers, where > would you go from here? You don’t have anywhere to go, do you – you’ve used > your ultimate sanction, repeatedly, and to no effect. > So we sympathise with the non-smacking lobby, but not just for "mainstream" > reasons. In the case of my son, it does not even achieve a desired effect – > and it certainly doesn’t make us feel any better. What we want to know is, > exactly how are we supposed to teach him what constitutes bad behaviour, > and why, and why it is unacceptable? We have very limited scope for use of > non-verbal cues to head off potential bad behaviour before it gets going, > limited scope for verbal reasoning, and more time in the average week with > more need for a solution than most normal parents could probably conceive > of as realistically possible. > Grateful for any and all inputs, either to the group or to home, > Andy Spragg

Response:

> Cheryl, > In most situations I do not support the use of physical punishment to control > children but I do not support the position of lavonne and the other "think-a- > like" members who seek to outlaw reasonable force statutes, which allow > parents the right to restrain or spank if the case warrants it.

Reasonable force is a considerably different issue from cruel and unusual punishment.  Hitting, or restraining, someone can be justified in terms of reasonable force.  Hitting or restraining as punishment is considered cruel and unusual for adults, but not for children. > This group,also supports equal political/social rights for children and would > go as far as having parents licensed to raise their own children.

I don’t know about any group, but I support greater social rights for children. And don’t kid yourself about parenting licencing…. it already exists, and rightly so. James.

Response:

>Okay Kristina, perhaps you’re right.  I shouldn’t have called this >philosophy crap, I apologize for that.  But for all of the anti-spanking >folks let me ask you something.  How does one offense differ from the next >with your child  if the punishment is always the same?

The punishment isn’t always the same.  Logical or natural consequenses do quite well.  For instance: Let’s say for >example, Billy hits Joey, okay time-out, talking to, lots of explaining >etc.

What’s the situation?  Are Billy and Joey friends?  Does Billy enjoy having Joey over?  If so, Joey is taken away and Billy isn’t allowed to play with him for X amount of time.  Depends on situation…but it is definitely related to the crime. >Then let’s say, Billy writes on the wall, time out, talking to etc.

No need for major explanations or even time out.  Billy has to clean the mess off the walls and his crayons are taken away for a time. >Then lets say Billy throws a ball in the house (after you said not to) and >breaks your lamp, time out, talking to.

Ball taken away…some repayment for the lamp has to be made (for instance, if Billy has allowance, that will go towards replacing lamp).  If Billy is really young then other repayment is made via extra chores (even a 4 year old can handle that). Then Billy runs out into the street >with a car coming without even looking-  Do you get what I am saying?

Definitely a talking to…and some lessons on safety. I get what you are saying…but it makes no sense.  Time out and talking to are not the only methods a non-spanker uses for a child.  Punishment should fit the crime…true.  However, how does spanking Billy for breaking the lamp fit the crime?  How does spanking Billy for running into the street fit the crime? The >punishment IMO should fit the crime.  If I can get away with a talking to or >a time out or whatever other alternative there might be then of course that >is my first choice.  However, there are times that I believe a spank is in >order.  Someone brought up the respect v. fear issue, my boys don’t fear >me.  They know I am fair with them, but they also know there are >consequences for bad behavior and out of respect for authority they choose >not to exhibit such (most of the time).  All I generally have to do is >threaten a spanking and the behavior changes immediately.

Out of fear?  I know you just said no…but they obviously fear being spanked.  The behavior changes only so long as you are there to threaten the spanking. As Adam (my – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->almost 4 yr old) gets older the spankings are few and far between.  The >message has been sent and received very clearly.  Hopefully most of that is >over- >And as far as Tarkaans comment that children don’t know the difference >between a swat on the butt and a fist in the face, perhaps you are right. >But as a responsible parent I would never punch my child anywhere, nor would >I use spoons or shoes or ping-pong paddles to hit them with, so I am the one >who knows the difference and also am the one doling out the punishment. >This is as personal an issue as BF, we all have our philosophies, and I >again apologize for lumping all of you in together or making an offensive >comment, but on the other hand don’t call me a child abuser because I choose >the other side of the fence.

No…that is extreme.  I would not consider you a child abuser, but I do think that sometimes spanking is just used as a convenient, easy solution. It works…definitely…in the short term.  But, I think one immediate negative thing about it is that when a parent spanks the child immediately feels the victim…it isn’t about their misbehavior anymore, because spanking so rarely *does* fit the crime. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sheri > Sorry this is so long but this is a very emotionally charged issue with > me, because if > : more of us stuck with old-fashioned parenting and dropped the > "attachment-parenting > : whatever-feels-good-do-it" crap there would be many more pleasant > children in this > : world. > I am sorry, but I must take issue with this. I haven’t heard a more > judgemental and offensive remark in a long time.  I would never dismiss > your parenting methods just because they don’t work for me, much less > talk about them as though they are ‘less than’ or CRAP, to use your > word. > <snipped the rest because I already said she was right> > Kristina

Response:

: > : From the day my first son was born I have been told that we are way too : > : hard on him, and the proof is in the pudding because all my friends want : > : boys like mine (they say constantly) but none of them want to parent the : > : way I do (too much work not to have cabinet locks and "stuff" on the : > : coffee table) well you can’t have it both ways-  in this discussion I am : > : only referring to people I know, this is NOT a general comment. : > : > You have been told more than once that you are "way too hard" on your : > child, and this has *never* caused you to question your parenting : > techniques? And what do you mean by "too much work not to have cabinet : > locks"? Are you saying that instead of baby-proofing your house, you : > *hit* your child when he got into something he shouldn’t? Wow. Hard to : > believe that sort of thing still happens. : I don’t disagree that the cabinet containing poisons and harmful things should be : locked, however, instead of baby-proofing everything how about house- proofing the : baby?  I am not saying that you shouldn’t prevent things that should be : prevented, falling accidents off of high stairs, accidental ingestion of poisons, : covering electrical outlets etc. but as far as locking up the tupperware and food : well to me that is just lazy.  What happens when you go somewhere and they don’t : have child locks.  I assume you tell him no, right, so why not do this at home? : Then when you go other places hopefully they won’t even bother opening up other : people’s cabinets. Could you please use slightly shorter line lengths? On many systems, lines of more than 78 characters are truncated or wrap to another line as they did above. Makes it very hard to read… My philosophy on babyproofing is if the child is less than 18 months old or so, and you have things that you really don’t want them to touch, put them where they can’t reach it or it *will* be handled. Young babies explore–that’s how they learn, and punishing them for grabbing that interesting thing that’s left in easy reach is absurd, IMO. Once the child is a year old or so I think it makes sense to start saying ‘no’ and removing the object or the child, but to expect them to ignore stuff that’s been left out before they are two or so is unreasonable. As for very young children exploring other people’s un-babyproofed houses, I’ve got two words for you: parental vigilance. : And Laura, if you read ANY of my posts then you would see that : I use spanking as a FINAL solution and when the behavior is severe, I : specifically said (biting, hitting, spitting etc), not because they got into : something they shouldn’t.  Perhaps you should read more carefully before : you go : popping off. Well, your post was not specific about the penalty for unauthorized exploration in your house. You and the other poster seemed so proud of your use of spanking that I guess I made an incorrect assumption. Sorry. BTW, what *is* the punishment for touching things they shouldn’t–and at what age did you start using that punishment? Just out of curiosity, you say that spanking is the FINAL solution? So you’ve never had to use it more than *once*, right? Laura Uerling

Response:

>I totally agree, Kristina.  Sadly, many people view anti-spanking as >anti-discipline.  But that’s really not what it’s about at all.  Parents can >still be firm and set limits without hitting their children.  I love my >children, and I am willing to try just about any method of discipline outside >of hitting them, humiliating them or making them fear me.  This approach has >certainly worked for me so far.   >chiz, >theorist >Kristina

It all boils down to ignorance.  When we are ignorant of a fact…we cannot possibly understand.  When I tell some people that I am sending my daughter to a Montessori school, a common reaction is "oh, there is a lot of freedom there"…as if my daughter will be spending 4 afternoons a week roaming the classroom with nothing to do.   In a vegetarian newsgroup that I subscribe to, there are some pro-meat posts that are doing their best to put down vegetarians…stooping to the level of calling all vegetarians (often spelled vergetarians) cult members who need to get a life.  It is insane to even comment back to some of these people, they don’t get it…what’s the point? When/if people care to increase their knowledge, they will/can read and educate themselves.  For those who choose to call attachment parenting a bunch of crap, or whatever it was that they said…lead them to a book and drop it.  There is no convincing those who choose to remain ignorant.  Remember though, ignorance is bliss…so they must choose a very blissful life ) I have a 20 year old who I never hit and I have a 3.5 year old who hasn’t been hit yet…with no plans to change now.  My son is a totally respectful young man whom I am very proud of.  My daughter, who is a bit more of a challenge, is in the process of learning right from wrong.  Believe me, I spend good portions of the day following through on consequences and eventually she will get it. My son is incensed when he sees kids get spanked.  He admires how he was raised and he is living proof that it works.  Take care now ) Regards, Debra

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> : From the day my first son was born I have been told that we are way too > : hard on him, and the proof is in the pudding because all my friends want > : boys like mine (they say constantly) but none of them want to parent the > : way I do (too much work not to have cabinet locks and "stuff" on the > : coffee table) well you can’t have it both ways-  in this discussion I am > : only referring to people I know, this is NOT a general comment. > You have been told more than once that you are "way too hard" on your > child, and this has *never* caused you to question your parenting > techniques? And what do you mean by "too much work not to have cabinet > locks"? Are you saying that instead of baby-proofing your house, you > *hit* your child when he got into something he shouldn’t? Wow. Hard to > believe that sort of thing still happens.

I don’t disagree that the cabinet containing poisons and harmful things should be locked, however, instead of baby-proofing everything how about house-proofing the baby?  I am not saying that you shouldn’t prevent things that should be prevented, falling accidents off of high stairs, accidental ingestion of poisons, covering electrical outlets etc. but as far as locking up the tupperware and food well to me that is just lazy.  What happens when you go somewhere and they don’t have child locks.  I assume you tell him no, right, so why not do this at home? Then when you go other places hopefully they won’t even bother opening up other people’s cabinets.And Laura, if you read ANY of my posts then you would see that I use spanking as a FINAL solution and when the behavior is severe, I specifically said (biting, hitting, spitting etc), not because they got into something they shouldn’t.  Perhaps you should read more carefully before you go popping off. Sheri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Hi, Just subscribed to this group tonight because we’re starting to reach the end of our tether with our 8 year old son. Didn’t catch the original posting, but I’ve read all the follow-ups and this is the sort of thread I wanted to get into. Far as I can make out, everyone who posted so far is at least arguing from the position of a parent with "normal" children, about whom "normal" conclusions can be drawn. Well, we’re not in that position. We have two children aged 9 and 7, both of whom have communication disorders, and I’d appreciate any feedback from any parents in a similar situation – no disrespect to anyone else, but most of the postings in this thread so far make implicit assumptions which are of limited utility when communication disorder complicates the picture. When I was a child, I was spanked pretty seldom, as far as I recall – probably because my Dad didn’t need to. He just had to adopt a particular tone of voice and it made me feel ill with fear. Quite how he managed to achieve it I don’t recall, and in any case it certainly isn’t an ability I aspire to now I’m a parent. What I do aspire to is an ability to teach my kids the difference between good and bad behaviour, without instilling fear and if at all possible without smacking – but at the moment I don’t seem to be doing very well at all. Not a day goes by without at least one prolonged confrontation with our son, invariably initiated by him for any of a number of reasons – many of which would simply not arise with normal children and which normal parents would be open-mouthed with incomprehension if they were to observe – and he absolutely will not accept, ever, that the last word belongs to parents. Now this would be bad enough with a "normal" child (and I would contend that it would almost never happen with a "normal" child anyway) – but this is a child with a normal IQ and yet a very rudimentary ability to pick up on non-verbal and social cues, an impaired ability to comprehend language and an equally limited ability to formulate his own language, and a seemingly unlimited capacity for perseveration. Take today. He had been to a playscheme where he behaved badly. He came home and behaved badly for the next two hours. Then he asked me to play Monopoly. I said no because he had been behaving badly. Now I’d been at work so I didn’t observe most of this, but it had been going on for about four hours on and off (mostly on), so I didn’t think it was reasonable to just act as if nothing had been going on. Bingo – conflict time, and I know at the outset that there is zero precedent for any outcome except eventually I will give up trying to explain and send to him to his room because I don’t want to spend until his bedtime arguing to no avail. OK, non-spankers, he comes down 2 minutes later – so what do I do? Am I wrong in imagining that if most parents told their 9 year old to go to his room, he would understand it was because he had been very naughty and would do it? I told him to go back and if he came out again before I said so, I would smack him. I asked him did he understand, he said yes. Two minutes later, he came out again. So I smacked him, and told him to go back and if he came out again before I said so I would smack him again, only harder. So he came out again, so I smacked him again … eventually he stayed put for about 20 minutes. When he had calmed down, he came down again. OK, spankers, where would you go from here? You don’t have anywhere to go, do you – you’ve used your ultimate sanction, repeatedly, and to no effect. So we sympathise with the non-smacking lobby, but not just for "mainstream" reasons. In the case of my son, it does not even achieve a desired effect – and it certainly doesn’t make us feel any better. What we want to know is, exactly how are we supposed to teach him what constitutes bad behaviour, and why, and why it is unacceptable? We have very limited scope for use of non-verbal cues to head off potential bad behaviour before it gets going, limited scope for verbal reasoning, and more time in the average week with more need for a solution than most normal parents could probably conceive of as realistically possible. Grateful for any and all inputs, either to the group or to home, Andy Spragg

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: > Thank you very much for your opinions. They are very much like my own. My : > daughter (7) would never dream of hitting me. Well, let me rephrase that, : > she would never dream of hitting me again. So, having a 7 year-old fear you is something to be *proud* of? : Exactly!!!!!!  For the parents still "discussing" hitting with the 4 and 5 : yr olds, you have to ask yourself if what you are doing is working.  If it : works for you then I guess that’s what counts.  My tolerance level is just : lower. I’d guess your kids know only too well that getting caught hitting invites violent reprisal from Mom. And since "what counts" is that it seems to work, I guess it doesn’t matter if it puts your kids at risk for long-term harm. : Cheryl it looks as though its you and me, but that’s okay.  8o) : From the day my first son was born I have been told that we are way too : hard on him, and the proof is in the pudding because all my friends want : boys like mine (they say constantly) but none of them want to parent the : way I do (too much work not to have cabinet locks and "stuff" on the : coffee table) well you can’t have it both ways-  in this discussion I am : only referring to people I know, this is NOT a general comment. You have been told more than once that you are "way too hard" on your child, and this has *never* caused you to question your parenting techniques? And what do you mean by "too much work not to have cabinet locks"? Are you saying that instead of baby-proofing your house, you *hit* your child when he got into something he shouldn’t? Wow. Hard to believe that sort of thing still happens. Laura Uerling

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> Thank you very much for your opinions. They are very much like my own. My daughter (7) > would never dream of hitting me. Well, let me rephrase that, she would never dream of > hitting me again.

Exactly!!!!!!  For the parents still "discussing" hitting with the 4 and 5 yr olds, you have to ask yourself if what you are doing is working.  If it works for you then I guess that’s what counts.  My tolerance level is just lower. Cheryl it looks as though its you and me, but that’s okay.  8o) From the day my first son was born I have been told that we are way too hard on him, and the proof is in the pudding because all my friends want boys like mine (they say constantly) but none of them want to parent the way I do (too much work not to have cabinet locks and "stuff" on the coffee table) well you can’t have it both ways-  in this discussion I am only referring to people I know, this is NOT a general comment. Thanks for the support Cheryl. Sheri

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Okay Kristina, perhaps you’re right.  I shouldn’t have called this philosophy crap, I apologize for that.  But for all of the anti-spanking folks let me ask you something.  How does one offense differ from the next with your child  if the punishment is always the same?  Let’s say for example, Billy hits Joey, okay time-out, talking to, lots of explaining etc.  Then let’s say, Billy writes on the wall, time out, talking to etc. Then lets say Billy throws a ball in the house (after you said not to) and breaks your lamp, time out, talking to.  Then Billy runs out into the street with a car coming without even looking-  Do you get what I am saying?  The punishment IMO should fit the crime.  If I can get away with a talking to or a time out or whatever other alternative there might be then of course that is my first choice.  However, there are times that I believe a spank is in order.  Someone brought up the respect v. fear issue, my boys don’t fear me.  They know I am fair with them, but they also know there are consequences for bad behavior and out of respect for authority they choose not to exhibit such (most of the time).  All I generally have to do is threaten a spanking and the behavior changes immediately.  As Adam (my almost 4 yr old) gets older the spankings are few and far between.  The message has been sent and received very clearly.  Hopefully most of that is over- And as far as Tarkaans comment that children don’t know the difference between a swat on the butt and a fist in the face, perhaps you are right. But as a responsible parent I would never punch my child anywhere, nor would I use spoons or shoes or ping-pong paddles to hit them with, so I am the one who knows the difference and also am the one doling out the punishment. This is as personal an issue as BF, we all have our philosophies, and I again apologize for lumping all of you in together or making an offensive comment, but on the other hand don’t call me a child abuser because I choose the other side of the fence. Sheri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sorry this is so long but this is a very emotionally charged issue with > me, because if > : more of us stuck with old-fashioned parenting and dropped the > "attachment-parenting > : whatever-feels-good-do-it" crap there would be many more pleasant > children in this > : world. > I am sorry, but I must take issue with this. I haven’t heard a more > judgemental and offensive remark in a long time.  I would never dismiss > your parenting methods just because they don’t work for me, much less > talk about them as though they are ‘less than’ or CRAP, to use your > word. > <snipped the rest because I already said she was right> > Kristina

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: > : > No offense to the original poster, but this is *HORRIBLE*. There is no : > one on this earth that could ever ‘force’ me to hit my son. I seriously : > hope this is just a rumor, and not a fact. If I were ever to face this : > judge, and he tried to implement this method on me and my child, I would : > sue his ass for every last penny I could get out of him, and then donate : > it to a children’s charity. I’d even let him choose which one. : Nothing anyone can say could justify beating your child.  That’s just : what a spanking is – child abuse.  The kid can’t tell the difference : between a swat on the ass and a fist in the face.  They just know : they’ve been hit, because mommy and daddy hit people when they get mad, : and it makes the person stop whatever they’re doing. : Oh, and as an added bonus, the person who got hit gets more attention : after the beating, because the beating is only to show that mommy and : daddy love the person – what does this sound like to you?  Everything : you do is a learning opportunity for your child, so ask yourself: What : are they learning when I hit them? Whaddya know, Brian, we finally agree on something! Lots of parents justify spanking by saying that they carefully explain *why* they are spanking or by the fact that a child is too young to understand reasoning. I think both arguments are just rationalizations for the ‘easy out’ of striking a child. But the poster who bragged about not even bothering to explain why (sorry, the quote got snipped) really takes the cake. So, what exactly do you think you are teaching your child, or don’t you care? How can hitting a child for hitting others possibly teach him anything other than "if you are big enough or old enough you can get away with hitting someone."? As for the judge who encourages parents to beat their misbehaving children, why the hell should I value the opinion of some abusive old fossil on the bench over the extensive research that shows children that are spanked are *more* likely to engage in antisocial behavior? (If anyone is interested in details of the research, I recommend reading ‘alt.parenting.spanking’.) BTW, I loved a line I read in an earlier thread that answered all those lame arguments about how lack of spanking is responsible for all the country’s problems–was it yours, Toni? To paraphrase, ’since 90% of parents spank, why isn’t America heaven on earth?’ Laura Uerling

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I understand and accept your basic premise–that an OCCASIONAL swat isn’t going to permanently damage the child.  However, what I want to know is–do you really enjoy the fact the your children are SCARED of you?  I don’t.  I tried the occasional swat, and found that my children were scared of me–cringed when they felt like they had done something sufficiently bad to warrant a swat.  That was not a good feeling.  I don’t want them to EVER be scared of me.  Respect is one thing–fear is entirely different in my book. I have found many good and firm ways to discipline without hitting, and my children don’t respect me less–quite the opposite.  Also, you clearly understand little about attachment parenting.  It is not "do whatever feels good;" it is "do what is best for your child."  It allows babies and toddlers to be themselves and not to be FORCES to be "independent" before they are ready.  It espouses holding babies when they need it and following your instincts as a parent–the one who knows your child best.  I have used the basic method for both my boys, and at 5 and 2 they are neither disrespectful or clingy. TR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Couldn’t find Cheryl’s original post so I am replying here. >    If my son (almost 4) were to ever hit me anywhere for any reason he would be so >sorry that he would lay down and beg forgiveness before I had a chance to react >because he would know what was about to happen to him.  We would excuse ourselves from >the party and I would grab his arm and march him to wherever was private and proceed. >Let me also say that my son has NEVER hit me for any reason, nor has my other son (14 >months) yet.  A swat on the bottom when the level of discipline needs to be elevated >to such is not going to emotionally damage my boys.  I have to do it rarely, but >certain things (hitting, biting, spitting etc) need more than a time out or >diversion.  Nothing is more disrespectful IMO than seeing a flailing child hit their >parent.  In fact it disgusts me.  And as far as it being hypocritical that I teach >them ‘not to hit’ by spanking them  is no different than teaching them not to tear and >rip things yet allowing them to do it whenever they open a present. Parenting is >sometimes hypocritical but I don’t have to explain myself to them. >Sorry this is so long but this is a very emotionally charged issue with me, because if >more of us stuck with old-fashioned parenting and dropped the

"attachment-parenting – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->whatever-feels-good-do-it" crap there would be many more pleasant children in this >world. >In my never to be humble opinion. . . . . . . >Sheri > > I have thought about these alternatives quite a bit but I do have one question. > > What do you do a child (yours) is at a social gathering among yours and their > > peers, you ask the child politely and quietly to stop some sort of misbehavioral > > conduct, and the child looks at you, takes a chance and smacks you on the face > > or some part of your body because they saw someone else? Perhaps they saw > > someone spank or saw something on TV or watched some sort of discipline in a > > movie. What do you do next concerning that child?

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> No offense to the original poster, but this is *HORRIBLE*. There is no > one on this earth that could ever ‘force’ me to hit my son. I seriously > hope this is just a rumor, and not a fact. If I were ever to face this > judge, and he tried to implement this method on me and my child, I would > sue his ass for every last penny I could get out of him, and then donate > it to a children’s charity. I’d even let him choose which one.

Nothing anyone can say could justify beating your child.  That’s just what a spanking is – child abuse.  The kid can’t tell the difference between a swat on the ass and a fist in the face.  They just know they’ve been hit, because mommy and daddy hit people when they get mad, and it makes the person stop whatever they’re doing. Oh, and as an added bonus, the person who got hit gets more attention after the beating, because the beating is only to show that mommy and daddy love the person – what does this sound like to you?  Everything you do is a learning opportunity for your child, so ask yourself: What are they learning when I hit them? — Brian Ream                                         Kalamazoo Michigan

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: Couldn’t find Cheryl’s original post so I am replying here. : :     If my son (almost 4) were to ever hit me anywhere for any reason he would be so : sorry that he would lay down and beg forgiveness before I had a chance to react : because he would know what was about to happen to him. Okay, make sure you beat the mess out of any child that strikes you in the face, this the message that you’d like to send. Very nice!  We would excuse ourselves from : the party and I would grab his arm and march him to wherever was private and proceed. Proceed to what, give him the beating of his LIFE?? Good Lord! : Let me also say that my son has NEVER hit me for any reason, nor has my other son (14 : months) yet.  A swat on the bottom when the level of discipline needs to be elevated : to such is not going to emotionally damage my boys.  I have to do it rarely, but : certain things (hitting, biting, spitting etc) need more than a time out or : diversion.  Nothing is more disrespectful IMO than seeing a flailing child hit their : parent.  In fact it disgusts me.  And as far as it being hypocritical that I teach : them ‘not to hit’ by spanking them  is no different than teaching them not to tear and : rip things yet allowing them to do it whenever they open a present. Parenting is : sometimes hypocritical but I don’t have to explain myself to them. No, you are a hypocrite, not parenting, please don’t lump US all in your thinking mindset. I would take my son to the side, bend down and ask him to try calm down, then I would ask him what was wrong. You should never talk at a child, never "turn them out" at a party, and never act like it’s okay to tell them to do as I say not as I do, they are your mirror and they will see right through you. : : Sorry this is so long but this is a very emotionally charged issue with me, because if : more of us stuck with old-fashioned parenting and dropped the "attachment-parenting : whatever-feels-good-do-it" crap there would be many more pleasant children in this : world. : In my never to be humble opinion. . . . . . . : : Sheri Sheri, and I am never to humble to belabor a weak opinion, you are a hypocrite if you hit a child and tell them not to hit someone else, if you run red lights, if you drink and tell them not to drink. Each of these are to be explained as drink of age in moderation, don’t drink and drive, etc. When my son got a little older I used to hate to have to discipline him, but I do it, and sometimes I still hate it, literally. I feel like I am always on his "case", now that he is 2 1/2. But you know what, I DON’T SPANK HIM!! I hate putting him in time out, sometimes I have to hold him to help him clam down, I HATE THAT!! So my dear, whatever you think about how we "so what feels good", you are SO VERY wrong, okay!! Having to tell him the same thing over and over, until he gets my point, because sometimes it frustrates me. so does that sound like I am taking the EASY way out? That is a rhetorical question, BTW. — toni http://www.ddelight.com http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/cloth_diapers http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/endometriosissupport

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Thank you very much for your opinions. They are very much like my own. My daughter (7) would never dream of hitting me. Well, let me rephrase that, she would never dream of hitting me again. She and I had a little disagreement over something when she was about 3 and she copied the actions of a little boy in her daycare. I grabbed her by the arm, swatted her little butt, talked to her about the situation, and sent her to her room to "think about it". Just as I was when I was younger, she would rather get a spanking than listen to my "sermons" about her behavior. When I reason with her about a problem, she gets to the point (and you can see it in her eyes) when she wishes I would just shut up and get over it. I just ignore it and keep on going. I have just begun working on a new disciplinary action with her. I ask HER what she feels would be a fair discipline for her actions … she is usually rougher on herself than I would be … we then choose the punishment and stick to it. On minor infractions, I usually "ground" her from her VCR and movies for an afternoon or perhaps even a couple of days – all of which is preceded by a 10-20 minute "talk". For the major infractions, she gets a talk and a spanking and privledges taken away for a few days. Today’s children need the consistency of discipline. Too many parents are afraid of having an agency called and their children removed from their home for simply discipling their child in the way they deem necessary. I myself was that way for a very long time until it actually happened to me. After spanking my child, Human Services was called and I had to appear in their office with my child. They were told the story, saw how well-adjusted and well-mannered my child was, and laughed at my nosy neighbors. From that point on, I realized that I was free to discipline my child. I have since gotten to know several members of the community and have met the judge that hears child abuse cases. His one gripe is that "parents don’t spank their kids enough anymore" and he has to hear a lot of juvenile delinquent cases as a result (his words, not mine). I have heard that he even has a paddle in his courtroom and forces parents to actually spank their child in front of him. I think it is wonderful to know there are people out there that are standing behind the parents who try to discipline in a fair manner. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Couldn’t find Cheryl’s original post so I am replying here. >     If my son (almost 4) were to ever hit me anywhere for any reason he would be so > sorry that he would lay down and beg forgiveness before I had a chance to react > because he would know what was about to happen to him.  We would excuse ourselves from > the party and I would grab his arm and march him to wherever was private and proceed. > Let me also say that my son has NEVER hit me for any reason, nor has my other son (14 > months) yet.  A swat on the bottom when the level of discipline needs to be elevated > to such is not going to emotionally damage my boys.  I have to do it rarely, but > certain things (hitting, biting, spitting etc) need more than a time out or > diversion.  Nothing is more disrespectful IMO than seeing a flailing child hit their > parent.  In fact it disgusts me.  And as far as it being hypocritical that I teach > them ‘not to hit’ by spanking them  is no different than teaching them not to tear and > rip things yet allowing them to do it whenever they open a present.  Parenting is > sometimes hypocritical but I don’t have to explain myself to them. > Sorry this is so long but this is a very emotionally charged issue with me, because if > more of us stuck with old-fashioned parenting and dropped the "attachment-parenting > whatever-feels-good-do-it" crap there would be many more pleasant children in this > world. > In my never to be humble opinion. . . . . . . > Sheri > > I have thought about these alternatives quite a bit but I do have one question. > > What do you do a child (yours) is at a social gathering among yours and their > > peers, you ask the child politely and quietly to stop some sort of misbehavioral > > conduct, and the child looks at you, takes a chance and smacks you on the face > > or some part of your body because they saw someone else? Perhaps they saw > > someone spank or saw something on TV or watched some sort of discipline in a > > movie. What do you do next concerning that child?

– Count your garden by the flowers,       never by the leaves that fall; Count your days by the golden hours,       don’t remember clouds at all. Count the nights by stars, not shadows,       Count your life by smiles, not tears, And with joy on every day,       count your age by friends, not years. Cheryl Smith http://home.att.net/~advantagerealty Advantage Realty & Auction, Inc.

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Couldn’t find Cheryl’s original post so I am replying here.     If my son (almost 4) were to ever hit me anywhere for any reason he would be so sorry that he would lay down and beg forgiveness before I had a chance to react because he would know what was about to happen to him.  We would excuse ourselves from the party and I would grab his arm and march him to wherever was private and proceed. Let me also say that my son has NEVER hit me for any reason, nor has my other son (14 months) yet.  A swat on the bottom when the level of discipline needs to be elevated to such is not going to emotionally damage my boys.  I have to do it rarely, but certain things (hitting, biting, spitting etc) need more than a time out or diversion.  Nothing is more disrespectful IMO than seeing a flailing child hit their parent.  In fact it disgusts me.  And as far as it being hypocritical that I teach them ‘not to hit’ by spanking them  is no different than teaching them not to tear and rip things yet allowing them to do it whenever they open a present.  Parenting is sometimes hypocritical but I don’t have to explain myself to them. Sorry this is so long but this is a very emotionally charged issue with me, because if more of us stuck with old-fashioned parenting and dropped the "attachment-parenting whatever-feels-good-do-it" crap there would be many more pleasant children in this world. In my never to be humble opinion. . . . . . . Sheri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have thought about these alternatives quite a bit but I do have one question. > What do you do a child (yours) is at a social gathering among yours and their > peers, you ask the child politely and quietly to stop some sort of misbehavioral > conduct, and the child looks at you, takes a chance and smacks you on the face > or some part of your body because they saw someone else? Perhaps they saw > someone spank or saw something on TV or watched some sort of discipline in a > movie. What do you do next concerning that child?

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Cheryl, In most situations I do not support the use of physical punishment to control children but I do not support the position of lavonne and the other "think-a- like" members who seek to outlaw reasonable force statutes, which allow parents the right to restrain or spank if the case warrants it. This group,also supports equal political/social rights for children and would go as far as having parents licensed to raise their own children. They believe in never using any form of cohersion to raise kids and claim their studies support this (very little of this research is conducted in realistic clinical settings). A further problem with many of their studies is that they are funded or supported in part by similar thinking groups and demonstrate extreme bias. IMO this mind set has brought us to the contemporary problems we now face (decrease in parental control and an increase in youth incarceration/violence etc. over the last 15 years-supported in the lit.)-Bucky – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have thought about these alternatives quite a bit but I do have one question. > What do you do a child (yours) is at a social gathering among yours and their > peers, you ask the child politely and quietly to stop some sort of misbehavioral > conduct, and the child looks at you, takes a chance and smacks you on the face > or some part of your body because they saw someone else? Perhaps they saw > someone spank or saw something on TV or watched some sort of discipline in a > movie. What do you do next concerning that child? > Cheryl > In the absence of posts for families searching for alternatives to > paddling here are a few suggestions: > 1) Redirection (works with any age) > 2) Positive rewards/praise for appropriate actions > 3) Loving/nurturing environment (lots of hugs, smiles etc..) > 4) For aggressive behavior-Teach negotiation and mediation skills (older > children) > 5) Model appropriate behavior and expectations > 6) Involve other positive role-models > 7) Network with other parents for new ideas/support > Focus on what the child does right and reinforce it > 9) Seek qualified advice/support > 10) When your stressed with your children give yourself a time out > Most of these suggestions come from Curwin & Mendler, Jones, Hall, Satir > etc.. None of which support punishing families who may have spanked at > sometime in their lives as the "cohort" would mandate by changing reasonable > force statutes (also known as Corporal Punishment).! > Non-spanker, > Chris C. > TX > — > Count your garden by the flowers, >       never by the leaves that fall; > Count your days by the golden hours, >       don’t remember clouds at all. > Count the nights by stars, not shadows, >       Count your life by smiles, not tears, > And with joy on every day, >       count your age by friends, not years. > Cheryl Smith > http://home.att.net/~advantagerealty > Advantage Realty & Auction, Inc.

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Sorry this is so long but this is a very emotionally charged issue with me, because if : more of us stuck with old-fashioned parenting and dropped the "attachment-parenting : whatever-feels-good-do-it" crap there would be many more pleasant children in this : world. I am sorry, but I must take issue with this. I haven’t heard a more judgemental and offensive remark in a long time.  I would never dismiss your parenting methods just because they don’t work for me, much less talk about them as though they are ‘less than’ or CRAP, to use your word. I will not go into how attachment parenting has worked wonders not only for my son, but for me as a WOMAN, and as a MOTHER, and as a human being. It would be wasted on you, as you have already made your decision as to how you view the concept. I will say, however, that if this subject is so ‘emotionally charged’ for you, that you would do well to watch your tone so as to avoid confrontation. This is an emotionally charged issue, but it CAN be handled without acting like children in a sand box slinging dirt at eachother. For those who have read this far, attachment parenting is NOT about ‘do what you want’, that is a load of crap. Do some reading before you start throwing around cheap shots. Kristina

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No offense to the original poster, but this is *HORRIBLE*. There is no one on this earth that could ever ‘force’ me to hit my son. I seriously hope this is just a rumor, and not a fact. If I were ever to face this judge, and he tried to implement this method on me and my child, I would sue his ass for every last penny I could get out of him, and then donate it to a children’s charity. I’d even let him choose which one. Gawwd… Kristina, who was spanked as a child and STILL disagrees with it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> mine). I have heard that he even has a paddle in his courtroom and forces parents to > actually spank their child in front of him. I think it is wonderful to know there are > people out there that are standing behind the parents who try to discipline in a fair > manner.

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