Question:
: Sorry, but you are incorrect. Youth crime is not, and never has been, : a class phenomenon. Reporting youth crime is, and often has been, a class : phenomenon. : Name a century and I can give you a cite on serious, violent, often : fatal crimes by upper-class youth. That doesn’t mean that crimes aren’t class related. You could also make out a good case showing that it is traditionally the middle classes where morality has been at its strongest. : As for what this has to do with spanking? Ask me for cites from : Sweden in about thirty years. Until then, we have no adequate long-term : studies indicating even a possibility of deleterious effects from spanking- : free child rearing practices. And unless your comparative group has also had similar welfare provision and a similar social environment in general, I fail to see how a valid study could be made whatever the outcome.
Response:
> >And don’t be so sure that spanking in our grandparents generation didn’t >have extreme negative effects on the personality and development of >children who suffered though such unnecessary mistreatment. > Spanking has been used for centuries to discipline children and for centuries > the youth crime problem was limited to the lower class section. It was also > more or less just petty theft such as shoplifting and pickpocketing. Since al > these alternative parenting methods have come in, youth crime has not only be > on the rise, it is rising in the middle class areas and becoming more violent > To ignore this fact is self-deluding and irrational. > Mark Forkheim
Respected friend: Sorry, but you are incorrect. Youth crime is not, and never has been, a class phenomenon. Reporting youth crime is, and often has been, a class phenomenon. Name a century and I can give you a cite on serious, violent, often fatal crimes by upper-class youth. As for what this has to do with spanking? Ask me for cites from Sweden in about thirty years. Until then, we have no adequate long-term studies indicating even a possibility of deleterious effects from spanking- free child rearing practices. (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F. The problem with "good enough" is that it usually isn’t…
Response:
>What a naive and limited point of view. Perhaps other values instilled >by our grandparents and certain conditions of society no longer in effect >caused children and society to do well, not the presence of spanking. >To compare the society of our grandparents and today’s society and to see >spanking as the controlling variable in children’s behavior strikes me as >the most self-deluding, pro-nostalgia and irrational position one can >take. >And don’t be so sure that spanking in our grandparents generation didn’t >have extreme negative effects on the personality and development of >children who suffered though such unnecessary mistreatment.
Spanking has been used for centuries to discipline children and for centuries the youth crime problem was limited to the lower class section. It was also more or less just petty theft such as shoplifting and pickpocketing. Since all these alternative parenting methods have come in, youth crime has not only been on the rise, it is rising in the middle class areas and becoming more violent. To ignore this fact is self-deluding and irrational. > Great idea–Not. Decide how to raise your children while they are in >utero and then regardless of situation, particular circumstance, the >particular needs of the particular child, stick to it—even if it >doesn’t work, even if it is wrong, even if it is violent and damaging. >You confuse real discipline with punishment and consistent parenting with >stubborn refusal to alter methodology based on the needs of the child.
Perhaps you should read a little bit slower before you respond. What I don’t like to see is parents who read Dr. X’s book this year and discipline like that, read Dr Y’s book the next year and decide this is good, then see Dr Z on Oprah and use that method. This will only leave the children confused and unresponsive to any discipline. In fact, because kids are quick to pick up on behavior, they will realize that the parents don’t have a clue. > What would be the purpose of this? It makes no logical sense. Having >seen first hand the damage done to spanked children in a professional >capacity, I don’t need to be against spanking to justify any theory. I >am against spanking because it damages many children.
Many? Not all? Perhaps the children who were "spanked" were actually abused. My parents spanked my brother and I, but not every day, not even every month. It was only used when the misbehavior was severe enough to warrant it. > That’s what you would like to believe but it is simply not true. I >have raised two unspanked children who are now productive, contributing, >loving, wonderful, successful adults. Again you would like to believe >that spanking is necessary because it justifies your behavior even though >it is not justifiable.
Well perhaps your children were not as bad as some kids can be. I have known both types. Again, I don’t advocate spanking as the only form of punishment. What I am saying is that it should not be tossed aside as means of punishment. — "Try not!…Do or do not, there is no try." Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back, 1980 Mark Forkheim http://www.escape.ca/~mforkheim
Response:
> "An Alternative to Spanking?" by Jordan Riak > We live at a time when the media are full of expert advice on >how to solve all our personal problems. How to properly bring up >children is one of the most written-about topics, surpassed only >by weight loss schemes. There is a perennial flood of books and >articles on the subject to supply the needs of countless eager >and desperate parents. The titles beckon while we wait our turn >at the supermarket check-out, promising, for the mere price of a >magazine, to solve any problem, answer any question and make us >perfect parents of happy, beautiful, talented children.
All of these books being written by people more intrested in making a buck and a name for themselves than in helping out children. In the days of our grandparents, these books were not around. They raised their children with spankings. Our society was doing pretty good, until these books started to come out. >method that works while one sleeps. They’ll welcome the >opportunity to learn how to rear their children in ways that >aren’t too taxing and don’t require any major change in habits or >attitudes. When parents discover the advice doesn’t work, some >blame the children. Others blame themselves for being too stupid >or stressed-out to follow the directions, and are too embarrassed >to admit failure. Some pretend the plans are working, when they >obviously aren’t, because they’ve invested so much faith in them. >In fact, they should be demanding a refund.
The mistake they make is they keep changing the way they discipline. While you are pregnant, you have to decide on how to raise your children, then stick to it. If you try this then that, the kids will grow up with not much discipline, or being very confused about it. > For some people, usually the most severely damaged, to admit >that their parents behaved destructively toward them and thereby >robbed them of their childhoods and handicapped them for life is >intolerably painful. So they pretend it didn’t happen. You will >hear such people say, "My parents spanked me because they loved >me. It did me a world of good." Such statements are composed >entirely of wishful thinking. People who say such things are >sealed off from the memory of their childhood feelings as if by a >mile-thick concrete wall. The child in them has long since died >and been buried. But they cannot see a child’s face or hear a >child’s voice without being reminded of the part of their lives >that is missing. The thought of it irritates them. Children >irritate them. Such people spank their own children and urge >others to spank children because, when the whole world appears to >be doing it, they feel more comfortable in their predicament and
I can turn around and say that the people who are against spanking are making this up to justify their own theories. I was spanked as a child, not abused. I am not sealing off my memories of childhood. I didn’t like to get spanked. If anything, I leaned to hate from my "peers". The bullies in class that were never disciplined for what they did because of parents like this. Which leads me to say that parents who say that spanking is not necessary are delusional. They think their kids are not bad. > There is a >deep, durable prohibition in every one of us against hurting >members of our species, particularly our offspring, so it takes >some convincing to overcome it.
This is the biggest piece of bullshit I have ever heard. If this was true, we would not have the word WAR in our dictionaries. >Copyright waived Published by PTAVE
– "Try not!…Do or do not, there is no try." Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back, 1980 Mark Forkheim http://www.escape.ca/~mforkheim
Response:
>All of these books being written by people more intrested in making a buck and >a name for themselves than in helping out children. In the days of our >grandparents, these books were not around. They raised their children with >spankings. Our society was doing pretty good, until these books started to come >out.
What a naive and limited point of view. Perhaps other values instilled by our grandparents and certain conditions of society no longer in effect caused children and society to do well, not the presence of spanking. To compare the society of our grandparents and today’s society and to see spanking as the controlling variable in children’s behavior strikes me as the most self-deluding, pro-nostalgia and irrational position one can take. And don’t be so sure that spanking in our grandparents generation didn’t have extreme negative effects on the personality and development of children who suffered though such unnecessary mistreatment. >The mistake they make is they keep changing the way they discipline. While you >are pregnant, you have to decide on how to raise your children, then stick to >it. If you try this then that, the kids will grow up with not much discipline, >or being very confused about it.
Great idea–Not. Decide how to raise your children while they are in utero and then regardless of situation, particular circumstance, the particular needs of the particular child, stick to it—even if it doesn’t work, even if it is wrong, even if it is violent and damaging. You confuse real discipline with punishment and consistent parenting with stubborn refusal to alter methodology based on the needs of the child. >I can turn around and say that the people who are against spanking are >making >this up to justify their own theories.
What would be the purpose of this? It makes no logical sense. Having seen first hand the damage done to spanked children in a professional capacity, I don’t need to be against spanking to justify any theory. I am against spanking because it damages many children. < I was spanked as a child, not abused. I >am not sealing off my memories of childhood. I didn’t like to get spanked. If >anything, I leaned to hate from my "peers". The bullies in class that were >never disciplined for what they did because of parents like this.
I would say you were damaged by spanking. You were hit so you wish to perpetuate the cycle of violence. You cling to hitting and hurting children, I would definitely say that is damaged. Again you confuse discipline with physical punishment and you have become a parent who is like that bully you discuss. > Which leads >me to say that parents who say that spanking is not necessary are >delusional. They think their kids are not bad.
That’s what you would like to believe but it is simply not true. I have raised two unspanked children who are now productive, contributing, loving, wonderful, successful adults. Again you would like to believe that spanking is necessary because it justifies your behavior even though it is not justifiable.
Response:
"An Alternative to Spanking?" by Jordan Riak A parent writes: "I know spanking is not the right way to deal
with my children’s behavior. But that does little to help. It would be very helpful if you would tell me some alternatives. What to do when you are very angry and want to slap your child on the bottom. How to diffuse your own anger. There must be some good books you can recommend…" Variations of this request have been put to me many times. I wince inwardly when I hear them coming because I know that I am unable to offer the kind of answer that is being sought. I know that no matter what I say, it will probably sound like an evasion. Let me try to explain why it is impossible for me to give what I believe many parents are looking for: good new behaviors that can easily be substituted for the bad old ones, as if it were as simple as switching to a superior brand of cooking oil. We live at a time when the media are full of expert advice on how to solve all our personal problems. How to properly bring up children is one of the most written-about topics, surpassed only by weight loss schemes. There is a perennial flood of books and articles on the subject to supply the needs of countless eager and desperate parents. The titles beckon while we wait our turn at the supermarket check-out, promising, for the mere price of a magazine, to solve any problem, answer any question and make us perfect parents of happy, beautiful, talented children. In the days of our grandparents, pitchmen set up their tents in public places to sell their potions and elixirs. Today’s hawkers of junk ideas in print, like those bygone hawkers of junk in bottles, reason that since people are already suffering so much, they’ll welcome remedies that are pleasant, e.g., a dieting plan that lets one continue overeating, a cure for cigarette addiction that lets one keep smoking, a self-esteem improvement method that works while one sleeps. They’ll welcome the opportunity to learn how to rear their children in ways that aren’t too taxing and don’t require any major change in habits or attitudes. When parents discover the advice doesn’t work, some blame the children. Others blame themselves for being too stupid or stressed-out to follow the directions, and are too embarrassed to admit failure. Some pretend the plans are working, when they obviously aren’t, because they’ve invested so much faith in them. In fact, they should be demanding a refund. Bringing up children is not something one can pick up from a recipe book. It isn’t baking bread. How we treat our children is profoundly influenced by the treatment given us by our own parents. Which is just fine if they were warm, caring, tender grown-ups. Not so fine if they weren’t. The least lucky of us must come to terms with the fact that our parents, whom we love and on whom we depended, may have hurt us when we were little, defenseless and innocent. They may have done to us what had been done to them. We aren’t placing blame. We’re facing facts. For some people, usually the most severely damaged, to admit that their parents behaved destructively toward them and thereby robbed them of their childhoods and handicapped them for life is intolerably painful. So they pretend it didn’t happen. You will hear such people say, "My parents spanked me because they loved me. It did me a world of good." Such statements are composed entirely of wishful thinking. People who say such things are sealed off from the memory of their childhood feelings as if by a mile-thick concrete wall. The child in them has long since died and been buried. But they cannot see a child’s face or hear a child’s voice without being reminded of the part of their lives that is missing. The thought of it irritates them. Children irritate them. Such people spank their own children and urge others to spank children because, when the whole world appears to be doing it, they feel more comfortable in their predicament and more convinced of the correctness of their behavior. There is a deep, durable prohibition in every one of us against hurting members of our species, particularly our offspring, so it takes some convincing to overcome it. When we have the courage to honestly examine what was done to us as children, to reexperience our feelings of that time, the fear, the shame, the rage, the isolation, then we can convert the awful power of those experiences into a source of strength. We can begin to develop an understanding of why we behave as we do and, incidentally, why our children behave as they do. Then change and growth are possible. We can become better parents. Slowly. Maybe. There’s no guarantee. But I think it is wholly unrealistic for anyone to believe he will ever be able to understand and manage his children, even with the best expert guidance, if he is unwilling to try to understand and manage himself. The mother who wrote the letter from which I’ve quoted above seems to be on the right path to becoming a better parent and ceasing to be a hitter. She has recognized that the problem behavior is hers, not her child’s. Every well-stocked book shop is a source of good, bad and indifferent advice on the topic of child rearing. Parents can learn 1,001 alternatives to spanking, the best of which add up to DON’T. There are even a few authors – the most cynical and dangerous of all – who will ease parents’ troubled consciences for the price of a book by advising them that spanking is OK and when and how to do it. I urge the reader to approach this body of literature with unrelenting skepticism. Keep in mind, any expert who claims to have a method for bringing up children that makes the job easy and exempts parents from the awesome personal responsibility of the undertaking is a quack, a pitchman under a tent, a peddler of candy. Copyright waived Published by PTAVE The reader can obtain a free copy of the informative 8-page booklet _Plain Talk about Spanking_ by writing to Parents and Teachers Against Violence in Education (PTAVE), P.O. Box 1033, your "snail mail" address. Specify English or Spanish edition when requesting. "On the Web" at: www.cei.net/~rcox/nospan.html
Response:
> "An Alternative to Spanking?" by Jordan Riak
or email me for a free FAQ on alternatives to spanking…. — ,-_/ . .-,–. ,—. . ‘ | ,-. |-. ,-. `|__/ | -’ ,-. |-. ,-. ,-. ,-. . . . , . ,-. ,-. | | | | | | | | ,. | -. | | | | ,-| | | | | | / | ,-| `-. | `-’ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ `-’ ` `’ `—’ `-’ `-’ `-^ ‘ ‘ `-’ `’ ‘ `-^ `-’ `–’
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