Pure Parents

Question:

>wisdom, writ: >Aside from the catty remarks, I support Neal in this debate. >My parents taught me to respect those who are in charge. From day one. >Well, I think that there is a middle ground here.

<big snip> >It is important for kids to know that they are not the only ones on the >planet, and that there are disappointments in life everyday.  The successful >child is one who makes the right behavioral choices.  And that ability is >best taught by the parent. >This I do agree with; if we let our children do whatever they want >whenever they want, it will be mighty difficult for them to deal with the >eventuality of having a boss (which is a given, unless the child becomes a >dictator). Even those of us who are self-employed *still* have to answer >to *someone*.

Not to pick at Kathleen, but Mr. Kuehn is apparently suggesting that the *only* alternatives in Teresa’s household are spanking or kids running riot. From what I know of Teresa, it seems unlikely that either is the case. A middle ground obviously must exist, at least for her, therefore. –Janet Triplets  (10/21/96)

Response:

The Tennessean, Sat, May 22, 1999  {letter to the editor}                         Better ways to handle kids      Spanking has its sanctions from religious roots, as did slavery. Spanking is not a science; it is a mere cultural habit, and one that many times has clear, positive alternatives.      Twice in two days I overheard two parents ask their children if they’d like a spanking for not getting out of the swimming pool as they were told to do. These were not isolated spanking threats; I’ve heard these before and they seem to be "normal" routine threats.      In this situation, I would advise the parents to examine their own behavior when going to the pool. Children can do what they love for hours and hours until thye’ve had enough. Therefore they need to have their time managed for them.     Explain to the child how long you intend to stay at the pool, and start a countdown about 15 minutes before the time to leave. This gives the child time to prepare himself to leave peacefully, without tantrums, when called.     If the child insists on having a few last dips and dives, it is important to remember that this is a child, and having fun is what his world is about. A firm voice and kind words, which divert the child’s attention to the next activity, in addition to reassurance that the next visit to the pool may be longer, will help the child to leave willingly and have something to look forward to.     This procedure has always worked for me. A.M. Tonsingh Ansari [Chris's commentary]         For years, I used to babysit the daughter of friends every Weekend.  I did lots of errands and would take her along. We would also often go to playgrounds or museums or the zoo or other places she liked.   Sometimes Time put constraints on how long we could do some activity.         I would let my digital watch be the "heavy" as in "when this watch beeps, that means we have to go!"  Also, I would start telling her, as early as fifteen minutes before, how much time was left. When she was littler, I would hold up fingers to show how many minutes more she could swing on the swings etc.  This would turn it into a natural lesson about counting backwards, and about how long minutes are. Sometimes, when the beeps were just seconds away, she would huddle with me looking at the watch while I counted down seconds "10… 9… 8… etc." When the watch beeped, she was psychologically all prepared to leave on schedule, without feeling abruptly yanked away from a fun activity by me.  This technique worked flawlessly for years on end without threats or Battles of Wills.         We adults don’t like to be abruptly yanked away from an activity in which we are engrossed.  Children are no different.  Parents who make a habit of abruptly ordering a child to stop what they are doing this instant because it is time to leave are setting themselves up for pointless and avoidable Battles of Wills with their children.  These are the same parents who will then claim that the "have to" spank their children "as a last resort" because "nothing else works." Chris

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->      Twice in two days I overheard two parents ask their children if > they’d like a spanking for not getting out of the swimming pool as they > were told to do. These were not isolated spanking threats; I’ve heard > these before and they seem to be "normal" routine threats. >      In this situation, I would advise the parents to examine their own > behavior when going to the pool. Children can do what they love for hours and > hours until thye’ve had enough. Therefore they need to have their time > managed for them. >     Explain to the child how long you intend to stay at the pool, and start a > countdown about 15 minutes before the time to leave. This gives the child > time to prepare himself to leave peacefully, without tantrums, when called. >     If the child insists on having a few last dips and dives, it is important > to remember that this is a child, and having fun is what his world is about. > A firm voice and kind words, which divert the child’s attention to the next > activity, in addition to reassurance that the next visit to the pool may be > longer, will help the child to leave willingly and have something to look > forward to.

Chris added: > We adults don’t like to be abruptly yanked away from an > activity in which we are engrossed.  Children are no different.  Parents > who make a habit of abruptly ordering a child to stop what they are doing > this instant because it is time to leave are setting themselves up for > pointless and avoidable Battles of Wills with their children.  These are > the same parents who will then claim that the "have to" spank their > children "as a last resort" because "nothing else works."

The swimming example really hits home to me, because my kids are all "little fish" – they love to swim. When my youngest was two, I took the whole family to the pool one day and we had a wonderful time. I let them all know that the pool was closing in about fifteen minutes, then ten, then five – but of course, time doesn’t mean much to two-year-olds. When the whistle blew, and everyone had to get out of the pool, he burst into tears. I carried him out to the change room, still crying, but as soon as I set him down on the floor, he raced back into the now-empty pool and jumped in. I jumped in after him – fortunately, I could still swim faster than him at the time! I told him that the pool was closed now and I was very sorry that he couldn’t swim anymore but we had to leave, and he sobbed on my shoulder as I carried him out again. I was very glad I was still nursing him, because we sat on a bench in the change room and nursed, and he gradually stopped those sobbing breaths and soon fell asleep on my lap. My point here is that very young children can’t really understand the concept of time, and will sometimes be frustrated and upset when they have to stop an activity they are enjoying, even with a "countdown". They may protest, cry, or even jump back in the pool. It seems to me that the parents’ role is then to help the child deal with the frustration as gently as possible, not punish them. Teresa

Response:

: The swimming example really hits home to me, because my kids are all "little : fish" – they love to swim. When my youngest was two, I took the whole family : to the pool one day and we had a wonderful time. I let them all know that : the pool was closing in about fifteen minutes, then ten, then five – but of : course, time doesn’t mean much to two-year-olds. When the whistle blew, and : everyone had to get out of the pool, he burst into tears. I carried him out : to the change room, still crying, but as soon as I set him down on the : floor, he raced back into the now-empty pool and jumped in. : I jumped in after him – fortunately, I could still swim faster than him at : the time! I told him that the pool was closed now and I was very sorry that : he couldn’t swim anymore but we had to leave, and he sobbed on my shoulder : as I carried him out again. I was very glad I was still nursing him, because : we sat on a bench in the change room and nursed, and he gradually stopped : those sobbing breaths and soon fell asleep on my lap. : My point here is that very young children can’t really understand the : concept of time, and will sometimes be frustrated and upset when they have : to stop an activity they are enjoying, even with a "countdown". They may : protest, cry, or even jump back in the pool. It seems to me that the : parents’ role is then to help the child deal with the frustration as gently : as possible, not punish them. : Teresa         Good point, Teresa.  I didn’t start taking care of Vanessa on weekends until she was 5 years old, so my experiences don’t necessarily apply to children younger than this.  Fortunately, it is easy to simply carry the toddlers if one must.  Punishments and threats, as you point out, still aren’t necessary. Chris

Response:

My daughter has always – since she was an infant – had problems with transitions (from one activity to the next) so from the time she was able to understand, we would talk about the time limit before we started the activity (we will be here for half an hour and then we will have to leave) and then she would be given warnings at 10, 5, 3 and 1 minute (at three minutes, if we were at the park, we’d ask her what she wanted to do for her last activity – that put *her* in control and was very effective) and then if she couldn’t leave without a fuss, we wouldn’t do whatever activity it was again until she could promise that she’d be able to leave without freaking out. YMMV, worked for us. -Alexis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : The swimming example really hits home to me, because my kids are all "little > : fish" – they love to swim. When my youngest was two, I took the whole family > : to the pool one day and we had a wonderful time. I let them all know that > : the pool was closing in about fifteen minutes, then ten, then five – but of > : course, time doesn’t mean much to two-year-olds. When the whistle blew, and > : everyone had to get out of the pool, he burst into tears. I carried him out > : to the change room, still crying, but as soon as I set him down on the > : floor, he raced back into the now-empty pool and jumped in. > : I jumped in after him – fortunately, I could still swim faster than him at > : the time! I told him that the pool was closed now and I was very sorry that > : he couldn’t swim anymore but we had to leave, and he sobbed on my shoulder > : as I carried him out again. I was very glad I was still nursing him, because > : we sat on a bench in the change room and nursed, and he gradually stopped > : those sobbing breaths and soon fell asleep on my lap. > : My point here is that very young children can’t really understand the > : concept of time, and will sometimes be frustrated and upset when they have > : to stop an activity they are enjoying, even with a "countdown". They may > : protest, cry, or even jump back in the pool. It seems to me that the > : parents’ role is then to help the child deal with the frustration as gently > : as possible, not punish them. > : Teresa >    Good point, Teresa.  I didn’t start taking care of Vanessa on > weekends until she was 5 years old, so my experiences don’t necessarily > apply to children younger than this.  Fortunately, it is easy to simply > carry the toddlers if one must.  Punishments and threats, as you point > out, still aren’t necessary. > Chris

—Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.—

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> One of the best things that our local pool did for parents was institute a >> 15 minute >> adult swim at the end of each hour.  For those 15 minutes, all children >> under 18 >> had to be out of the pool.  This allowed adults to swim laps or be in the >> pool >> without kids for a few minutes and it gave parents an easy way to get kids >> out >> of the pool to go home – we could say – next adult swim, it’s time to go and >> the >> kids knew that they had to get out anyway, so it was never a problem. >Cop out. >Actually Dorothy’s last line says it all.  It clearly demonstrates how >bright and manipulative (of parents) they can be.  "If the kids know >that they had to get out . . . it was never a problem." >It’s just striking that a 17 y.o. lifeguard is able to control some >kids better than their 30 y.o. parents >– >Jim

The adult swim was a simple and concrete time marker for both parent and child.  Why is that difficult to see.  This has nothing to do with controlling the child at all.  Some parents didn’t use it this way, but left in the middle of a swim period, but it was an easy way for many of us to tell the kids it was time to go.

Response:

>Aside from the catty remarks, I support Neal in this debate. >My parents taught me to respect those who are in charge. From day one.

Interesting.  I would love to see a one-day-old infant who "respects those in charge."  <G> >If your child is throwing a fit at you about the simple task of getting out >of the pool, there is a problem.

Yes.  The question is what to do about it. >Does a 2 year old know the difference between getting out of the pool and >getting out of the road?

Well, I certainly hope they do.  Two year olds don’t equate water and roadways any more than adults do. >One day your child’s life may depend on instant >obedience, and it wouldn’t be nearly as cute if your toddler screamed on >rage and ran back into the road, now would it?  Thank god it was only a >pool and not a carnival ride or a busy intersection after a parade.

Hey, the child could drown in the pool, how is that better than run over by a car?  If you are supervising the child in these situations hopefully you are close enough that you can prevent harm.  Why is it that running into the road is the one everyone always uses?  Because it is scary? Of course, that’s true. But the fact that the parent is scared, doesn’t mean that spanking was the right answer.  Been there, done that when mine was 18 months old.  ONCE It did not solve the problem, just released MY fear and anger.  Spanking was not a rational response to the "running into the road" situation. >As for children having problems with transitions, poppycock.

Many children have difficulty with transitions, so do many adults We learn how to cope and make the transitions easier for ourselves as adults, why shouldn’t we ease transitions for kids.  I wonder how many preschool children you have seen? > I can guarantee that most people would rather be around Neal’s kids > than a band of out of control kids who are running their parent’s day > into the ground.

Just where in the original statement was there any band of out of control kids who were running there parent’s day into the ground?  The kids who were being threatened with spanking were the ones who were misbehaving in the original scenario. >Sure, kids are disappointed when the fun ends, but providing more >entertainment as an alternative to doing the hard, yet proper task of >teaching your children what is acceptable and what is not acceptable is >inexcusable.

Why is preparing the child a few minutes before leaving with a warning not acceptable to you?  What is wrong with giving the child a chance to change gears and understand that it will be time to go soon? Also, for very young children with little sense of time, saying we will go after your next dive, or we will go when the bell rings or we will go when dad comes back from the bathroom, makes sense and gives him a concrete time marker instead of the clock.  This doesn’t solve all the problems, but it helps, so why not use it?  Is there some reason that the parent must show the child that it is the parent who has all the power? >I coach a little league team, and the difference between the kids who are >used to being entertained nonstop and the kids who have been taught good >old-fashioned manners is like black and white.

The example given had nothing to do with entertaining the children nonstop. The children were entertaining themselves and it was time to leave.  How is your statement related to the example as given? BTW, I have seen many kids who have been spanked whose manners are awful.  In fact, I just saw an example on the "el" here.  The parents manners left something to be desired also in the way they spoke to their children, but I know they spanked.  They spanked two of the children in the short train ride. <snip team sports stuff>

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>  We adults don’t like to be abruptly yanked away from an activity in > which we > >> are engrossed.  Children are no different.  Parents > >> who make a habit of abruptly ordering a child to stop what they are doing > >> this instant because it is time to leave are setting themselves up for > >> pointless and avoidable Battles of Wills with their children.  These are > >> the same parents who will then claim that the "have to" spank their > >> children "as a last resort" because "nothing else works." > >> Chris >I give a warning. I say, when they start, that it ends at X time… and if it >does not then the activity may not be available again for some time.  They >learned very quickly.

You seem to have missed the point of the article Chris posted here. It does not say anything about not going when you say you are going. It talks about avoiding the argument without resorting to the kind of "I’m the dad and you will do what I say because I’m the dad" logic. Certainly if you give them a warning and they decide to argue then the consequence may be that you do not get to do the activity again for a while.  That’s a logical consequence of the behavior.  This particular technique allows the parent and child to avoid the power issue in the first place. > If you give them these kinds of warnings, they will come without battling > you for the most part. >Nonsense… then it is ‘five more minutes… PLLLLEEEEAAASSSSSEEEE!!!!!?’ >Sorry.. I do not play that game.  They know and have learned… when I say X I >mean X… not X plus 5 seconds or any other time.

No, Neal, most of the time, kids want to please you and they will not argue any differently whether you give them a few minutes of warning or not.  The warning is only a way to allow them to change gears in their minds. > One of the best things that our local pool did for parents was institute a > 15 minute adult swim at the end of each hour.  For those 15 minutes, > all children under 18 had to be out of the pool.  This allowed adults to > swim laps or be in the pool without kids for a few minutes and it gave > parents an easy way to get kids out of the pool to go home – we could > say – next adult swim, it’s time to go and the kids knew that they had to > get out anyway, so it was never a problem. >Cop out.

No, they could still have argued that they wanted to stay through the next swim time, this just made the marker easier – you could say we will go at the next adult swim and the kids knew what it meant.  It also allowed older kids to know when the hour came, so if you said they needed to come home at 11 o’clock, they knew to look at the clock when the adult swims were on to see if it was time yet. > >There are times to swim, for example, and times to stop doing so.  When the > >parent says NOW it means NOW and that should be that.  The sooner the child > >learns this the happier they will be.  Any battles that the child decides > >to have they will learn they will ALWAYS lose… 100% of the time.  If they wish to > > get a change of situation fine… they can do so in an appropriate

manner. I wonder.  What is an appropriate manner here?  That is not what was discussed above, but is another point. > >But if they enter battle they have already lost and that is how it should > >ALWAYS be… it is called consistency. > Why should this be a battle? >It isn’t… not with me anyway.  Any more than an unarmed quadriplegic against a >tank would be a ‘battle’.

And your point is that because you are bigger, you win?  You should not have to do battle with your children. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> By not planning how to give the child some leeway, > you as a parent make it into one. >No, by allowing the leeway you create the battleground.  When the child knows >there is no discussion on it, no appeals… there is no battle. > If you tell the child in advance that there is a specific time and warn > him a few minutes before you are leaving so that he can > get his mind ready for the leaving, you avert the battle. >Not always.  By being strict on the deadlines and absolutely consistent and non >negotiable you eliminate all battles, unless your child is a fool, a masochist, >or both. > >The child needs to learn that maybe, just MAYBE, the parents know something > the > >child does not. > And maybe the parents need to learn how to avoid making things a battle. >I do.  I do not agree that you do.  When you leave it up for negotiation you >make for a potential battleground.

Nothing was said in any of the above about negotiating the time of leaving., You are adding a different issue to the mix. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> Aside from the catty remarks, I support Neal in this debate. > My parents taught me to respect those who are in charge. From day one. > If your child is throwing a fit at you about the simple task of getting out > of the pool, there is a problem. > Does a 2 year old know the difference between getting out of the pool and > getting out of the road?  One day your child’s life may depend on instant > obedience, and it wouldn’t be nearly as cute if your toddler screamed on > rage and ran back into the road, now would it?  Thank god it was only a pool > and not a carnival ride or a busy intersection after a parade.

Neal’s post hasn’t come up on my server yet, but let me just respond to this. Jeremy at two understood very clearly the difference between a road and a pool. He was a good swimmer and knew he was quite safe in the water, but he also knew that roads were dangerous and didn’t run into them. > Sure, kids are disappointed when the fun ends, but providing more > entertainment as an alternative to doing the hard, yet proper task of > teaching your children what is acceptable and what is not acceptable is > inexcusable.

Yes, Jeremy was sad that he couldn’t swim any more. Two-year-olds don’t really get the concept of swim times and when they end. He was also very tired – as evidenced by the fact that he fell asleep so quickly – and I think that made it harder for him to deal with his unhappiness. Jeremy is fourteen now, and I can tell you he is a terrific kid. (As are my other three.) Teresa

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>  We adults don’t like to be abruptly yanked away from an activity in > >> which we are engrossed.  Children are no different.  Parents > >> who make a habit of abruptly ordering a child to stop what they are doing > >> this instant because it is time to leave are setting themselves up for > >> pointless and avoidable Battles of Wills with their children.  These are > >> the same parents who will then claim that the "have to" spank their > >> children "as a last resort" because "nothing else works." > >> Chris

<snip> >Why make things into power struggles when they clearly do > not have to be such? >No power struggle.  I know where all the power resides in my household, as do my >children.  They know nothing is to be gained and a great deal can be lost by >entering into such.  They never win and they never will with me while they are >minors.  When they are adults they can run their own households as they see >fit.  Same rules I grew up with.

You see parenting as about control and power.  Kids need to learn how to control themselves not how to be externally controlled by the parent. And the fact that you grew up with these rules does NOT make them correct or absolute. > >The fact is that children need to learn that they will not be coddled and > >coaxed at every turn, their every obstinance rewarded with yet another game. > Children are not for the most part obstinate. >Not if they are not allowed to be, or rewarded for being so.

Why does giving the children a simple warning that time is about to run out on an activity equate to coddling and coaxing? It is a simple courtesy that you would extend to any adult you were with. With an adult or older child, you can say we have to leave at 10 o’clock and they understand the time. Children at younger ages don’t know what 10 o’clock means so we give them a warning that the time is coming up shortly.   They need a concrete time frame. In five minutes (doesn’t even have to really be 5 minutes, btw), means in a short time.  We also say, at the next adult swim, or when the bell rings or when dad comes back from the shower, then it will be time to go. It gives the child a concrete marker for the time and makes him or her less likely to argue when you say – ok, time’s up or the bell rang or dad’s back, so it is time to go. <snip ADHD stuff> <snip rest – next post>

Response:

Thank You and I could not  agree more! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Aside from the catty remarks, I support Neal in this debate. > My parents taught me to respect those who are in charge. From day one. > If your child is throwing a fit at you about the simple task of getting out > of the pool, there is a problem. > Does a 2 year old know the difference between getting out of the pool and > getting out of the road?  One day your child’s life may depend on instant > obedience, and it wouldn’t be nearly as cute if your toddler screamed on > rage and ran back into the road, now would it?  Thank god it was only a pool > and not a carnival ride or a busy intersection after a parade. > As for children having problems with transitions, poppycock.  I can > guarantee that most people would rather be around Neal’s kids than a band of > out of control kids who are running their parent’s day into the ground. > Sure, kids are disappointed when the fun ends, but providing more > entertainment as an alternative to doing the hard, yet proper task of > teaching your children what is acceptable and what is not acceptable is > inexcusable. > I coach a little league team, and the difference between the kids who are > used to being entertained nonstop and the kids who have been taught good > old-fashioned manners is like black and white.  I can tell you this…the > kids who are there to play as a team and feel good about their > accomplishments do not appreciate a teammate who consistently makes > fundamental mistakes because they were never taught to listen and respect > those in charge.  After each one of them costs the team a game, they quickly > get the picture not because I have to say anything, but because their peers > are very hard on them from that point on.  And as soon as they get the idea > that just because sometimes you get bored while learning to do something > right doesn’t mean that it is worth ruining everyone else’s day, and the > other children promply forget any past transgressions. > It is important for kids to know that they are not the only ones on the > planet, and that there are disappointments in life everyday.  The successful > child is one who makes the right behavioral choices.  And that ability is > best taught by the parent. >    -**** Posted from RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com/?a ****- >  Search and Read Usenet Discussions in your Browser – FREE –

Response:

Aside from the catty remarks, I support Neal in this debate.
My parents taught me to respect those who are in charge. From day one.
If your child is throwing a fit at you about the simple task of getting out of the pool, there is a problem.
Does a 2 year old know the difference between getting out of the pool and getting out of the road?  One day your child’s life may depend on instant obedience, and it wouldn’t be nearly as cute if your toddler screamed on rage and ran back into the road, now would it?  Thank god it was only a pool and not a carnival ride or a busy intersection after a parade.
As for children having problems with transitions, poppycock.  I can guarantee that most people would rather be around Neal’s kids than a band of out of control kids who are running their parent’s day into the ground.
Sure, kids are disappointed when the fun ends, but providing more entertainment as an alternative to doing the hard, yet proper task of teaching your children what is acceptable and what is not acceptable is inexcusable.
I coach a little league team, and the difference between the kids who are used to being entertained nonstop and the kids who have been taught good old-fashioned manners is like black and white.  I can tell you this…the kids who are there to play as a team and feel good about their accomplishments do not appreciate a teammate who consistently makes fundamental mistakes because they were never taught to listen and respect those in charge.  After each one of them costs the team a game, they quickly get the picture not because I have to say anything, but because their peers are very hard on them from that point on.  And as soon as they get the idea that just because sometimes you get bored while learning to do something right doesn’t mean that it is worth ruining everyone else’s day, and the other children promply forget any past transgressions.
It is important for kids to know that they are not the only ones on the planet, and that there are disappointments in life everyday.  The successful child is one who makes the right behavioral choices.  And that ability is best taught by the parent.    -**** Posted from RemarQ, http://www.remarq.com/?a ****-  Search and Read Usenet Discussions in your Browser – FREE –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>  We adults don’t like to be abruptly yanked away from an activity in > which we >> are engrossed.  Children are no different.  Parents >> who make a habit of abruptly ordering a child to stop what they are doing >> this instant because it is time to leave are setting themselves up for >> pointless and avoidable Battles of Wills with their children.  These are >> the same parents who will then claim that the "have to" spank their >> children "as a last resort" because "nothing else works." >> Chris >  Sorry, Chris, but you clearly continue to speak from a position of ZERO >KNOWLEDGE.  You have no idea, clearly, what other parents do.  Your > closedminded >and arrogant selfrighteousness prevents this. > No, Neal, he speaks from experience as do I.  Experience with young children > shows > us how to avoid the "battle of wills" that many parents experience because > they make > things like this into a power struggle between the child and themselves that > does not > have to happen at all.  Why make things into power struggles when they > clearly do > not have to be such?

No power struggle.  I know where all the power resides in my household, as do my children.  They know nothing is to be gained and a great deal can be lost by entering into such.  They never win and they never will with me while they are minors.  When they are adults they can run their own households as they see fit.  Same rules I grew up with. >The fact is that children need to learn that they will not be coddled and > coaxed >at every turn, their every obstinance rewarded with yet another game. > Children are not for the most part obstinate.

Not if they are not allowed to be, or rewarded for being so. > They need time to change gears as do adults.  You ought to know that since you > claim to be ADHD.

You have it backwards… my being ADHD means it is a struggle to NOT constantly change gears.  However I do not think adults should be coddled in that regard either, as I stated in another post today in this thread. > The adults > I know who are often have a tough time switching activities when they are > engrossed in something.  They do so, but it isn’t easy.  Children need > warnings and help to pull away from activities were they are having fun.

I give a warning. I say, when they start, that it ends at X time… and if it does not then the activity may not be available again for some time.  They learned very quickly. > If you give them > these kinds of warnings, they will come without battling you for the most > part.

Nonsense… then it is ‘five more minutes… PLLLLEEEEAAASSSSSEEEE!!!!!?’ Sorry.. I do not play that game.  They know and have learned… when I say X I mean X… not X plus 5 seconds or any other time. > One of the best things that our local pool did for parents was institute a > 15 minute > adult swim at the end of each hour.  For those 15 minutes, all children > under 18 > had to be out of the pool.  This allowed adults to swim laps or be in the > pool > without kids for a few minutes and it gave parents an easy way to get kids > out > of the pool to go home – we could say – next adult swim, it’s time to go and > the > kids knew that they had to get out anyway, so it was never a problem.

Cop out. >There are times to swim, for example, and times to stop doing so.  When the >parent says NOW it means NOW and that should be that.  The sooner the child >learns this the happier they will be.  Any battles that the child decides > to have >they will learn they will ALWAYS lose… 100% of the time.  If they wish to > get a >change of situation fine… they can do so in an appropriate manner.  But > if they >enter battle they have already lost and that is how it should ALWAYS be… > it is >called consistency. > Why should this be a battle?

It isn’t… not with me anyway.  Any more than an unarmed quadriplegic against a tank would be a ‘battle’. > By not planning how to give the child some leeway, > you as a parent make it into one.

No, by allowing the leeway you create the battleground.  When the child knows there is no discussion on it, no appeals… there is no battle. > If you tell the child in advance that there is a > specific time and warn him a few minutes before you are leaving so that he > can > get his mind ready for the leaving, you avert the battle.

Not always.  By being strict on the deadlines and absolutely consistent and non negotiable you eliminate all battles, unless your child is a fool, a masochist, or both. >The child needs to learn that maybe, just MAYBE, the parents know something > the >child does not. > And maybe the parents need to learn how to avoid making things a battle.

I do.  I do not agree that you do.  When you leave it up for negotiation you make for a potential battleground.

Response:

> >>  We adults don’t like to be abruptly yanked away from an activity in > which we >> are engrossed.  Children are no different.  Parents >> who make a habit of abruptly ordering a child to stop what they are doing >> this instant because it is time to leave are setting themselves up for >> pointless and avoidable Battles of Wills with their children.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. Even though I’m an adult and do have the ability to switch from one activity to the next, for the most part, it takes my mind about 15 minutes longer to switch – like I have to be out of work for a good 15 minutes before I’m out of ‘work mode’. Monday mornings are also difficult for me because I have to push myself back into work mode. Yeah, I’ll save my strength for the battles that actually mean something. -Alexis  These are – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> the same parents who will then claim that the "have to" spank their >> children "as a last resort" because "nothing else works." >> Chris >  Sorry, Chris, but you clearly continue to speak from a position of ZERO >KNOWLEDGE.  You have no idea, clearly, what other parents do.  Your > closedminded >and arrogant selfrighteousness prevents this. > No, Neal, he speaks from experience as do I.  Experience with young children > shows > us how to avoid the "battle of wills" that many parents experience because > they make > things like this into a power struggle between the child and themselves that > does not > have to happen at all.  Why make things into power struggles when they > clearly do > not have to be such? >The fact is that children need to learn that they will not be coddled and > coaxed >at every turn, their every obstinance rewarded with yet another game. > Children are not for the most part obstinate.  They need time to change > gears > as do adults.  You ought to know that since you claim to be ADHD.  The > adults > I know who are often have a tough time switching activities when they are > engrossed in something.  They do so, but it isn’t easy.  Children need > warnings > and help to pull away from activities were they are having fun.  If you give > them > these kinds of warnings, they will come without battling you for the most > part. > One of the best things that our local pool did for parents was institute a > 15 minute > adult swim at the end of each hour.  For those 15 minutes, all children > under 18 > had to be out of the pool.  This allowed adults to swim laps or be in the > pool > without kids for a few minutes and it gave parents an easy way to get kids > out > of the pool to go home – we could say – next adult swim, it’s time to go and > the > kids knew that they had to get out anyway, so it was never a problem. >There are times to swim, for example, and times to stop doing so.  When the >parent says NOW it means NOW and that should be that.  The sooner the child >learns this the happier they will be.  Any battles that the child decides > to have >they will learn they will ALWAYS lose… 100% of the time.  If they wish to > get a >change of situation fine… they can do so in an appropriate manner.  But > if they >enter battle they have already lost and that is how it should ALWAYS be… > it is >called consistency. > Why should this be a battle?  By not planning how to give the child some > leeway, > you as a parent make it into one.  If you tell the child in advance that > there is a > specific time and warn him a few minutes before you are leaving so that he > can > get his mind ready for the leaving, you avert the battle. >The child needs to learn that maybe, just MAYBE, the parents know something > the >child does not. > And maybe the parents need to learn how to avoid making things a battle. > <snip rant>  Neal, you shouldn’t make personal comments at the end.  It is > not > necessary.

—Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.—

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->      Twice in two days I overheard two parents ask their children if > they’d like a spanking for not getting out of the swimming pool as they > were told to do. These were not isolated spanking threats; I’ve heard > these before and they seem to be "normal" routine threats. >      In this situation, I would advise the parents to examine their own > behavior when going to the pool. Children can do what they love for hours >and > hours until thye’ve had enough. Therefore they need to have their time > managed for them. >     Explain to the child how long you intend to stay at the pool, and >start a > countdown about 15 minutes before the time to leave. This gives the child > time to prepare himself to leave peacefully, without tantrums, when >called. >     If the child insists on having a few last dips and dives, it is >important > to remember that this is a child, and having fun is what his world is >about. > A firm voice and kind words, which divert the child’s attention to the >next > activity, in addition to reassurance that the next visit to the pool may >be > longer, will help the child to leave willingly and have something to look > forward to. >Chris added: > We adults don’t like to be abruptly yanked away from an > activity in which we are engrossed.  Children are no different.  Parents > who make a habit of abruptly ordering a child to stop what they are doing > this instant because it is time to leave are setting themselves up for > pointless and avoidable Battles of Wills with their children.  These are > the same parents who will then claim that the "have to" spank their > children "as a last resort" because "nothing else works." >The swimming example really hits home to me, because my kids are all "little >fish" – they love to swim. When my youngest was two, I took the whole family >to the pool one day and we had a wonderful time. I let them all know that >the pool was closing in about fifteen minutes, then ten, then five – but of >course, time doesn’t mean much to two-year-olds. When the whistle blew, and >everyone had to get out of the pool, he burst into tears. I carried him out >to the change room, still crying, but as soon as I set him down on the >floor, he raced back into the now-empty pool and jumped in. >I jumped in after him – fortunately, I could still swim faster than him at >the time! I told him that the pool was closed now and I was very sorry that >he couldn’t swim anymore but we had to leave, and he sobbed on my shoulder >as I carried him out again. I was very glad I was still nursing him, because >we sat on a bench in the change room and nursed, and he gradually stopped >those sobbing breaths and soon fell asleep on my lap. >My point here is that very young children can’t really understand the >concept of time, and will sometimes be frustrated and upset when they have >to stop an activity they are enjoying, even with a "countdown". They may >protest, cry, or even jump back in the pool. It seems to me that the >parents’ role is then to help the child deal with the frustration as gently >as possible, not punish them. >Teresa

Agreed, Teresa Just a few points to add to prevent battles with the preschool set. For younger children, you should warn them 5 minutes before leaving probably, not 15 minutes.  We do this all the time in preschool – 5 more minutes to play before cleaning up is a pretty good rule.  We have even set a kitchen timer to help make the time more objective. Wanted to add that our pool had a good policy that helped parents get the children out of the pool.  Every hour, there was a 15 minute adult only swim.  So instead of 5 more minutes, we could say at the next adult swim, it is time to go and the kids knew that when the lifeguard blew the whistle for kids to get out, they had to go home.  Worked beautifully and also gave adults time to swim laps or just be in without the kids for a few minutes at the end of every hour.  This is one that parents can ask the management about – they might be willing to use it as a policy if lots of people liked it. Dorothy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >  We adults don’t like to be abruptly yanked away from an activity in > which we > > are engrossed.  Children are no different.  Parents > > who make a habit of abruptly ordering a child to stop what they are doing > > this instant because it is time to leave are setting themselves up for > > pointless and avoidable Battles of Wills with their children.  These are > > the same parents who will then claim that the "have to" spank their > > children "as a last resort" because "nothing else works." > > Chris >   Sorry, Chris, but you clearly continue to speak from a position of ZERO > KNOWLEDGE.  You have no idea, clearly, what other parents do.  Your > closedminded > and arrogant selfrighteousness prevents this. > The fact is that children need to learn that they will not be coddled > and coaxed > at every turn, their every obstinance rewarded with yet another game. > There are times to swim, for example, and times to stop doing so.  When the > parent says NOW it means NOW and that should be that.  The sooner the child > learns this the happier they will be.  Any battles that the child > decides to have > they will learn they will ALWAYS lose… 100% of the time.  If they wish > to get a > change of situation fine… they can do so in an appropriate manner. > But if they > enter battle they have already lost and that is how it should ALWAYS > be… it is > called consistency. > The child needs to learn that maybe, just MAYBE, the parents know > something the > child does not. > You and your permissive, coddling BS sickens me. > I don’t see how telling a kid, "OK, we’ll be leaving in 15 minutes" is > either permissive or coddling, assuming you actually do leave.  It seems > like only common politeness.

Children not in their parents’ arms in a pool, since this is the example being floated here, should be able to tell basic time.  They know that at 3PM for example that is it. With me the child who is NOT out by 3PM at the latest (the deadline is the LATEST… not the time they start thinking about getting out) will be the child sitting on a chair the next time watching their sisters swim while they just get to sit and watch.  Trust me.. I had to do that… ONCE.  They have never not been out at least five minutes before the deadline and near the deadline they are ALWAYS checking the time. > In fact, as the only person in our family > with any notion of time, I find myself doing the same thing with my > husband if he’s engrossed in something and we need to depart from the > house at a certain time, only I give him a 30-minute heads up in case he > needs to take a shower before we leave.

Maybe he also need to learn that this cushion will not always be there and that especially as an adult he needs to take responsibility for himself.  If he is lousy with time get a water resistant alarm watch. > I don’t know about other parents, but we do exactly what Chris does, and > we rarely have even mild disputes about leaving, let alone battles.

I do as I do, and I have no battles either.  Your point? > When we’re having a complicated day with a lot of places to be at certain > times, I have also found it useful to go over the schedule with my > daughter first thing in the morning, so that she knows what to expect.

  As do I.  And I point out that these are the timepoints and it will be adhered to because the only way to get it all done is to do so.  Their approval or liking of it are neither required nor requested.  It simply is.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  We adults don’t like to be abruptly yanked away from an activity in which we > are engrossed.  Children are no different.  Parents > who make a habit of abruptly ordering a child to stop what they are doing > this instant because it is time to leave are setting themselves up for > pointless and avoidable Battles of Wills with their children.  These are > the same parents who will then claim that the "have to" spank their > children "as a last resort" because "nothing else works." > Chris >  Sorry, Chris, but you clearly continue to speak from a position of ZERO >KNOWLEDGE.  You have no idea, clearly, what other parents do.  Your closedminded >and arrogant selfrighteousness prevents this.

No, Neal, he speaks from experience as do I.  Experience with young children shows us how to avoid the "battle of wills" that many parents experience because they make things like this into a power struggle between the child and themselves that does not have to happen at all.  Why make things into power struggles when they clearly do not have to be such? >The fact is that children need to learn that they will not be coddled and coaxed >at every turn, their every obstinance rewarded with yet another game.

Children are not for the most part obstinate.  They need time to change gears as do adults.  You ought to know that since you claim to be ADHD.  The adults I know who are often have a tough time switching activities when they are engrossed in something.  They do so, but it isn’t easy.  Children need warnings and help to pull away from activities were they are having fun.  If you give them these kinds of warnings, they will come without battling you for the most part. One of the best things that our local pool did for parents was institute a 15 minute adult swim at the end of each hour.  For those 15 minutes, all children under 18 had to be out of the pool.  This allowed adults to swim laps or be in the pool without kids for a few minutes and it gave parents an easy way to get kids out of the pool to go home – we could say – next adult swim, it’s time to go and the kids knew that they had to get out anyway, so it was never a problem. >There are times to swim, for example, and times to stop doing so.  When the >parent says NOW it means NOW and that should be that.  The sooner the child >learns this the happier they will be.  Any battles that the child decides to have >they will learn they will ALWAYS lose… 100% of the time.  If they wish to get a >change of situation fine… they can do so in an appropriate manner.  But if they >enter battle they have already lost and that is how it should ALWAYS be… it is >called consistency.

Why should this be a battle?  By not planning how to give the child some leeway, you as a parent make it into one.  If you tell the child in advance that there is a specific time and warn him a few minutes before you are leaving so that he can get his mind ready for the leaving, you avert the battle. >The child needs to learn that maybe, just MAYBE, the parents know something the >child does not.

And maybe the parents need to learn how to avoid making things a battle. <snip rant>  Neal, you shouldn’t make personal comments at the end.  It is not necessary.

Response:

>> LOL!!  Had I been there, I would have applauded him, then told > the pool folks that I would stand as lifeguard while he swam > until he was tired. >And I would have told you, if it was my kid, to mind your own business and stop >trying to undermine my authority.

Fah!  I wouldn’t *dream* of being anywhere *near* yer kids. > I *love* that sort of incentive — especially in kids. >I see… obstinance and disobedience are virtues to you, eh?

As opposed to most of the brain-dead, controlled stuff that I see out there?  You betcha! — Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  We adults don’t like to be abruptly yanked away from an activity in which we > are engrossed.  Children are no different.  Parents > who make a habit of abruptly ordering a child to stop what they are doing > this instant because it is time to leave are setting themselves up for > pointless and avoidable Battles of Wills with their children.  These are > the same parents who will then claim that the "have to" spank their > children "as a last resort" because "nothing else works." >  Sorry, Chris, but you clearly continue to speak from a position of ZERO >KNOWLEDGE.  You have no idea, clearly, what other parents do.  Your closedminded >and arrogant selfrighteousness prevents this. >The fact is that children need to learn that they will not be coddled and coaxed >at every turn, their every obstinance rewarded with yet another game.

Perhaps you can PROVE, for the rest of us, this "fact". >There are times to swim, for example, and times to stop doing so.  When the >parent says NOW it means NOW and that should be that.  The sooner the child >learns this the happier they will be.  Any battles that the child decides to have >they will learn they will ALWAYS lose… 100% of the time.  If they wish to get a >change of situation fine… they can do so in an appropriate manner.  But if they >enter battle they have already lost and that is how it should ALWAYS be… it is >called consistency.

OK, I guess that if a kid has an absolute asshole for a parent, the kid should recognize this as early as possible.  The parent should consistently be an asshole in order to help the kid see that. >The child needs to learn that maybe, just MAYBE, the parents know something the >child does not.

LOL!!  Yeah?  Like what?  Like "you shouldn’t swim within a half an hour after you have eaten"? >You and your permissive, coddling BS sickens me.

And your kind, gentle and understanding parenting style is always an amazement to me. — Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  We adults don’t like to be abruptly yanked away from an activity in which we > are engrossed.  Children are no different.  Parents > who make a habit of abruptly ordering a child to stop what they are doing > this instant because it is time to leave are setting themselves up for > pointless and avoidable Battles of Wills with their children.  These are > the same parents who will then claim that the "have to" spank their > children "as a last resort" because "nothing else works." > Chris >   Sorry, Chris, but you clearly continue to speak from a position of ZERO > KNOWLEDGE.  You have no idea, clearly, what other parents do.  Your closedminded > and arrogant selfrighteousness prevents this. > The fact is that children need to learn that they will not be coddled and coaxed > at every turn, their every obstinance rewarded with yet another game. > There are times to swim, for example, and times to stop doing so.  When the > parent says NOW it means NOW and that should be that.  The sooner the child > learns this the happier they will be.  Any battles that the child decides to have > they will learn they will ALWAYS lose… 100% of the time.  If they wish to get a > change of situation fine… they can do so in an appropriate manner. But if they > enter battle they have already lost and that is how it should ALWAYS be… it is > called consistency. > The child needs to learn that maybe, just MAYBE, the parents know something the > child does not. > You and your permissive, coddling BS sickens me.

I don’t see how telling a kid, "OK, we’ll be leaving in 15 minutes" is either permissive or coddling, assuming you actually do leave.  It seems like only common politeness.  In fact, as the only person in our family with any notion of time, I find myself doing the same thing with my husband if he’s engrossed in something and we need to depart from the house at a certain time, only I give him a 30-minute heads up in case he needs to take a shower before we leave. I don’t know about other parents, but we do exactly what Chris does, and we rarely have even mild disputes about leaving, let alone battles.   When we’re having a complicated day with a lot of places to be at certain times, I have also found it useful to go over the schedule with my daughter first thing in the morning, so that she knows what to expect.

Response:

>I don’t see how telling a kid, "OK, we’ll be leaving in 15 minutes" is >either permissive or coddling, assuming you actually do leave.  It seems >like only common politeness.  In fact, as the only person in our family >with any notion of time, I find myself doing the same thing with my >husband if he’s engrossed in something and we need to depart from the >house at a certain time, only I give him a 30-minute heads up in case he >needs to take a shower before we leave.

He needs 30 minutes to take a shower?  If he takes 30 minutes to take a shower, he’s doing more than just getting clean.         "It’s mine and it’s my wascloth and I’ll scrub it as long and         as fast as I want." — Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

Response:

>    Good point, Teresa.  I didn’t start taking care of Vanessa on >weekends until she was 5 years old, so my experiences don’t necessarily >apply to children younger than this.  Fortunately, it is easy to simply >carry the toddlers if one must.  Punishments and threats, as you point >out, still aren’t necessary.

Besides that, us guys aren’t terribly good at breastfeeding. — Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

Response:

>The swimming example really hits home to me, because my kids are all "little >fish" – they love to swim. When my youngest was two, I took the whole family >to the pool one day and we had a wonderful time. I let them all know that >the pool was closing in about fifteen minutes, then ten, then five – but of >course, time doesn’t mean much to two-year-olds. When the whistle blew, and >everyone had to get out of the pool, he burst into tears. I carried him out >to the change room, still crying, but as soon as I set him down on the >floor, he raced back into the now-empty pool and jumped in.

LOL!!  Had I been there, I would have applauded him, then told the pool folks that I would stand as lifeguard while he swam until he was tired. I *love* that sort of incentive — especially in kids. >I jumped in after him – fortunately, I could still swim faster than him at >the time! I told him that the pool was closed now and I was very sorry that >he couldn’t swim anymore but we had to leave, and he sobbed on my shoulder >as I carried him out again. I was very glad I was still nursing him, because >we sat on a bench in the change room and nursed, and he gradually stopped >those sobbing breaths and soon fell asleep on my lap. >My point here is that very young children can’t really understand the >concept of time, and will sometimes be frustrated and upset when they have >to stop an activity they are enjoying, even with a "countdown". They may >protest, cry, or even jump back in the pool. It seems to me that the >parents’ role is then to help the child deal with the frustration as gently >as possible, not punish them.

See why you are my net.mom? — Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The swimming example really hits home to me, because my kids are all "little >fish" – they love to swim. When my youngest was two, I took the whole family >to the pool one day and we had a wonderful time. I let them all know that >the pool was closing in about fifteen minutes, then ten, then five – but of >course, time doesn’t mean much to two-year-olds. When the whistle blew, and >everyone had to get out of the pool, he burst into tears. I carried him out >to the change room, still crying, but as soon as I set him down on the >floor, he raced back into the now-empty pool and jumped in. > LOL!!  Had I been there, I would have applauded him, then told > the pool folks that I would stand as lifeguard while he swam > until he was tired.

And I would have told you, if it was my kid, to mind your own business and stop trying to undermine my authority. > I *love* that sort of incentive — especially in kids.

I see… obstinance and disobedience are virtues to you, eh?

Response:

>  We adults don’t like to be abruptly yanked away from an activity in which we > are engrossed.  Children are no different.  Parents > who make a habit of abruptly ordering a child to stop what they are doing > this instant because it is time to leave are setting themselves up for > pointless and avoidable Battles of Wills with their children.  These are > the same parents who will then claim that the "have to" spank their > children "as a last resort" because "nothing else works." > Chris

  Sorry, Chris, but you clearly continue to speak from a position of ZERO KNOWLEDGE.  You have no idea, clearly, what other parents do.  Your closedminded and arrogant selfrighteousness prevents this. The fact is that children need to learn that they will not be coddled and coaxed at every turn, their every obstinance rewarded with yet another game. There are times to swim, for example, and times to stop doing so.  When the parent says NOW it means NOW and that should be that.  The sooner the child learns this the happier they will be.  Any battles that the child decides to have they will learn they will ALWAYS lose… 100% of the time.  If they wish to get a change of situation fine… they can do so in an appropriate manner.  But if they enter battle they have already lost and that is how it should ALWAYS be… it is called consistency. The child needs to learn that maybe, just MAYBE, the parents know something the child does not. You and your permissive, coddling BS sickens me.

Response: