Pure Parents

Question:

>I simply want to insert that this is genetic, so be doubly cautious about the >genetic possibility that you could pass on the disorder.

Cautious?  What exactly are you saying here?  Doubly cautious? I wish you would be more specific.

Response:

We haven’t sidestepped it.  It comes up about every three months and was actullly brought upo by Keith within the last two weeks. Roy 48 and still bipolar, and father of a 28 year old son who is not – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’m Sorry, >But one issue you have all sidestepped doesn’t even pertain to parenting skills >but genetics. >I am NOT suggesting that someone not have children because they are BP… >I simply want to insert that this is genetic, so be doubly cautious about the >genetic possibility that you could pass on the disorder. >Please – no hate mail, I am well aware of the wonderful creativity, >intelligence, and the  ability to FEEL so deeply for others also associated >with BP. It was just something that needed to be added to all of your other >comments.

Response:

By what I said, I meant to be aware of the possibility and sure you are willing and ABLE to take care of the child’s needs. Doubly cautious in the sense of  being aware of the child’s moods and learning what is simply a developmental stage and what could be the onset of developing BP. Children manifest differently than adults and a parent of a potential BP child needs to know that there are VERY different issues involved. It is always best to be prepared BEFORE than surprised AFTER. I say this from the viewpoint of a parent who had NO CLUE what was happening to her beloved child and doesn’t want any other family to have to go through what my child and I have suffered from due to lack of knowledge. Cheryl http://members.aol.com/DrgnKpr1/BPCAT.html http://members.aol.com/DrgnKpr1/BPCAT.html website name: BiPolar Children and Teens

Response:

Yes you do have a very high likelyhood of having bipolar children. But with your awareness of bipolar disorder you should be able to pick up on the very earliest symtoms and respond with education for your child and early medical intervention. Properly treated bipolar is no more a handicap than say, diabetes? The hell that so many of us have gone through is directly related to the UNDER diagnosis of bipolar that was the rule in the past, AND our lack of knowledge about what was wrong with us. Only if we live in denial are our children doomed to the same fate. One theory is that bipolar requires a stressor to trigger it, much like PTSD. This theory holds that protecting children from stressors until they are past the vunerable age will keep them from developing BP. SO…….The point is that merely having the genetic potential for BP does not mean that someone MUST develope a full blown illness. Darn, I found all this out after I married a woman who can’t have kids! Keith Hardwick

Response:

Keith, I have a feeling your gona hear it about this one> >Darn, I found all this out after I married a woman who can’t >have kids!

hope you have your flame retardent suit on Debbie

Response:

> >I simply want to insert that this is genetic, so be doubly cautious about the >genetic possibility that you could pass on the disorder. > Cautious?  What exactly are you saying here?  Doubly cautious? > I wish you would be more specific.

I think what she is saying is that knowing what we do about living BP we should weigh the decision to have children more carefully than folks who aren’t BP. In other words having a baby and being a parent is a common desire however we must ask ourselves whether or not we want to "risk" bringing a child into the world who may have to deal with being BP. Personally I have two boys. One is BP and one is not. I had them before I knew I was so I never had to weigh that specific decision. I did however know there weren’t any gaurentees of "perfect" little babes and that if anything went wrong (something recessed genetically or environmentally ie a paralyzing accident) I would accept the responsibility. If I had the choice to make again knowing what I now know I would still choose to have my kids regardless of the "risk" of passing BP to them. Kimberly

Response:

<<I did however know there weren’t any gaurentees of "perfect" little babes and that if anything went wrong (something recessed genetically or environmentally ie a paralyzing accident) I would accept the responsibility.>> Precisely.  There are no guarantees…. these are humans we are talking about, not things.  I would definitely not let being bipolar be any cause for discouragement in having a child.

Response:

Thanks Keith, For putting so eloquently what I stumbled at saying, BUT I do not believe we CAN protect the child from the trigger stressors – after all – even birth is considered to be one of the earliest severely stressful times in a persons life and I have had several parents say to me that they believed their child was symptomatic from birth. >Yes you do have a very high likelyhood of having bipolar >children. But with your awareness of bipolar disorder you >should be able to pick up on the very earliest symtoms and >respond with education for your child and early medical >intervention. Properly treated bipolar is no more a handicap >than say, diabetes? >The hell that so many of us have gone >through is directly related to the UNDER diagnosis of >bipolar that was the rule in the past, AND our lack of >knowledge about what was wrong with us. Only if we live in >denial are our children doomed to the same fate.

http://members.aol.com/DrgnKpr1/BPCAT.html website name: BiPolar Children and Teens

Response:

Kim, Actually my reference to being cautious wasn’t as to whether to have kids or not (I know a lot of "normal" parents who shouldn’t have had kids and some really WONDERFUL parents who have bipolar!) It referred to watching carefully for symptoms when you DO so that the child can get correct early treatment! There are still Doctors out there who refuse to learn that kids can develop BP symptoms and want to say it is because the parent has poor parenting skills! http://members.aol.com/DrgnKpr1/BPCAT.html website name: BiPolar Children and Teens

Response:

naw not really but it’s nice your out there looking out for all us unfortinate bi-polar’s.     do you know someone that is bi-polar or just like feeling sorry for us ????

Response:

remember bi-polars can be volital expect to get hate e-mail might even blow up your box!!! but it will dissapate this bord is full of sensitive bi-polar’s becareful how you state thing’s ok ??

Response:

duh!!! where do you think my bi-polar came from the bathroom sink??

Response:

You know…..for some of us the diagnosis came too bloody late! I had two kids already before I knew I was bi-polar. Lord only knows how long I really had it…I estimate sometime in Jr. High…but I’m not sure. So please….this general statement of being doubly cautious is foolhardy except for those who are single and who don’t already have kids. Trust me…if I had half a brain when I collasped the first time in College and gotten help instead of wading through it, I might have been diagnosed a whole lot earlier…..and my life would be different now. I wouldn’t have gotten married…knowing full well what this has and is doing right now.  Not to mention not haveing kids.  Would have had a tubal done wether or not the Docs would approve of  it….OK? Please…. — Jacque Miller ICQ # 10876877 AIM; PowWow; and Ichat – Jymata noli illigitimi carborundum "don’t let the bastards grind you down" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >I simply want to insert that this is genetic, so be doubly cautious about the > >genetic possibility that you could pass on the disorder. > Cautious?  What exactly are you saying here?  Doubly cautious? > I wish you would be more specific. >I think what she is saying is that knowing what we do about living BP we >should weigh the decision to have children more carefully than folks who >aren’t BP. In other words having a baby and being a parent is a common desire >however we must ask ourselves whether or not we want to "risk" bringing a >child into the world who may have to deal with being BP. >Personally I have two boys. One is BP and one is not. I had them before I >knew I was so I never had to weigh that specific decision. I did however know >there weren’t any gaurentees of "perfect" little babes and that if anything >went wrong (something recessed genetically or environmentally ie a paralyzing >accident) I would accept the responsibility. If I had the choice to make >again knowing what I now know I would still choose to have my kids regardless >of the "risk" of passing BP to them. >Kimberly

Response:

Wow! Would you please be my mother?!! You sound like a super-terrific parent. I hope that all you said is true. You must be raising incredibly well-adjusted children. I come from generations of dysfunction caused by mental illness. God – you’re so open with them. IF ONLY my mother had told us that her mania was not our fault!! Her failure in doing this for us has caused me to feel incedibly guilty with my loved one’s when I am "in" my illness – all their problems become mine and I am responsible for everything! I can’t say enough about what you wrote. You inspire me. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Kevin, > I am very interested in this kind of discussion.  I have three kids right now, > and we are in the adoption process(which is another topic in itself!LOL).  (I > gave birth to first 3). > You pose a good question about the irritability problem.   Sometimes, there is > so much going on… or so much has gone on in one day, that I feel kind of > brittle… and find myself on sensory information overload.   It is a very > unpleasant feeling. > How do I cope?  I have something called a white noise machine in my room! > Radio Shack makes it: its called the "Dream Machine" and costs about $40. > A half hour listening to one of the continuous modes on the machine help quite > a bit… also, I close the room and am by myself…. this is no easy task on > somedays….. each age level of your child demands a good strategy for having a > 1/2 hr escape. > So there is one strategy… > Also, I get help.  I usually need full-time help for about 7-10 consecutive > days in the fall… usually November/December.  I am talking about childcare > help. > Then, there is house-cleaning help.  Splurge if you must.  Order may be very > necessary when chaos rules. > Then I have arrangements for my youngest… because sometimes I worry that I am > not attentive enough when I am not well, and he goes to a drop off center which > is a ball for him. > I have deliberately guided my children to cultivate abilities/skills/talents > that require solice/quite/focus/time. > I splurge on books, puzzles, art/sewing/cooking supplies, and they are well on > their way to developing a strong inner life. > Also, I am frank with the children when I am not well…. and I always let them > know that they are not the cause… that I was born this way. > We know in our home that we are "different", but they know that different has a > place in this world too.  My kids have friends where the family life is > different, less "colorful" etc., and I think it is a good experience for them > to see that there are different ways to function as a family. > Unfortunately, I have had some hospitalizations here and there, and my children > were told at my request,  that I was out-of-town.  I prefer that at this time > in my life.  Perhaps this is due to the fact that I was in a terrible accident, > and before a "strategy" could be implemented, my children saw me suffer > terribly- ambulence/blood drive/last rites/family freaking out.   For me, it is > ultra important that I do the parenting, not the other way around.  Kids are > going to worry… but I strongly feel that their sense of safety/confidence is > transmitted through the parent. > The reality is very likely that I am raising a future bipolar person, and I > keep that in mind alot… that I must transmit coping skills on which they can > model themselves.  In the event that they don’t get it, there is still a likely > chance again that they may experience it again when they themselves are > parents.  So I don’t think the experience of having a bipolar parent is wasted, > one way or another. > I have more to say… but I have to check on my youngest…. > I’ll add more later!  This is a good topic! > Christine

Response:

LOL! John, Your letter has me smiling!   I do try and be a good mother, because my family is my life, but I wouldn’t call me terrific (but I do appreciate hearing it! Bipolar people tend to be very visionary, and enter parenthood with visionary hopes.  I think it is much harder for us to realize that we are made out of the same stuff as the rest of our species.   Although I could always spot a perfectionist in my proximity, I came late to the realization that I was one of the worst when it came to demanding perfection(from myself!) I don’t charge in and try to fix problems anymore like I used to… I wait and see how things play themselves out… say when the kids fight, or when they make a horrible mess, etc. Now I see that if the kids are going to be problem solvers, they must be allowed to handle the small ones… otherwise they won’t have any skills when it comes to big ones, so I see that the "do nothing" approach when appropriately applied, is for their greater good.  They don’t need 911MOM all the time. I still find myself wishing that I was like other "normal" parents, and I hope that I will mature out of this.  They have their share of difficulties too. My biggest wound in parenting is that some of my neighbor’s children are not allowed to play with my children.  I am a bit of a scandal in my neighborhood. There has been high drama in my house several years ago due to the accident. Ironically, the problems were medical, and resulted in an amputation.  I did freak out I admit.  I was near death, and I tried to refuse treatment when I knew that amputation was at hand.  The fire department broke into my house, and the surgery was performed in spite of my flat-out protests.   I suppose if I had been out on the street, I would have wondered what the hell was going on. I have never offered an explanation to anyone of what happened.  This is due to the fact that I am easily brought to tears just thinking about my loss. On top of that, our financial lifestyle is disturbing to my neighbors.  My husband is hispanic, and people have accused him of dealing drugs!   The reality is that he is immensely educated, manages an airline, and we travel for free. Our free mobility coupled with  bipolar spontaneity (bag is always packed and we are out the door with the word "go"!) looks like we are living a totally unplanned life that some find just too disturbing.  There is the appearance that we live the life of the freeNeasy but really, we eat every paycheck, and live in a plain old middle class neighborhood and are just like everyone else. I think that if I didn’t have this illness, I would have felt more confident about developing relationships and understandings with my neighbors.  I am immensely paranoid that my friends and neighbors will find out about my "diagnosis".  In the meantime, they have come up with all sorts of assessments, that are far worse than the truth… and lacking in good people skills, I am just ignoring their taunts, which I imagine is only contributing to more absurd speculation. My children are young enough to not be quite aware that they have been shunned, and I am in a desperate search to find a new place to live. I have endured unbelieable sufferings here, and while it is permanent, I think at this point that literally moving on is the only solution. I don’t want my children to have to pay the price for how people see me.  This is my big challenge in parenting. Sincerely, Christine

Response:

I’m Sorry, But one issue you have all sidestepped doesn’t even pertain to parenting skills but genetics. I am NOT suggesting that someone not have children because they are BP… I simply want to insert that this is genetic, so be doubly cautious about the genetic possibility that you could pass on the disorder. Please – no hate mail, I am well aware of the wonderful creativity, intelligence, and the  ability to FEEL so deeply for others also associated with BP. It was just something that needed to be added to all of your other comments.

Response:

Gosh…don’t people just suck!? That’s why I like living in the city. I crave the anonymity it offers – or is it my illness that craves the isolation?? Hmmm…well, whatever the reason, I live in a big city because even suburban life can be stifling. I wish we were all children because they don’t judge. What happens to us to make us so critical as adults? When does it happen? Why? I have a degree in Sociology and even I don’t have the answers. I suffered the same thing as a child. Grew up in a small (quite small) town and my parents were the town drunks. I honestly couldn’t tell you how many times the county police were at our house with our neighbors peering in their bathrobes at my mother or father being dragged away in handcuffs, because it happened so often. Yet, when they weren’t drunk, they earned a living, sent us to private school, and somehow survived it all and moved to a house on the beach in an upscale neighborhood in North Carolina! Amazing. Somehow it doesn’t seem right. My anger wants them to suffer for what they did. But, ya know what, they are suffering. Of their 8 children, only 2 visit them, and 1 calls them – the rest were too traumatized to handle a relationship. Anger. Yuck. I am angry at my anger. I’m coping. How did I get off the subject and onto me?? Well, I guess it’s because you touched a button in me and I know the pain you feel. I have this horrible problem of giving advice. I won’t give advice…but…. perhaps moving isn’t a good idea. What else could you do to deal with the problem? What have you done to cause it? All I mean by this question is: Are your neighbors wondering about you because they don’t know you? Do all they know about you is the "accident" incident? Are you sure they have ostracized your children? I used to suffer from pretty sever paranoia without even knowing I was paranoid. I’M NOT SAYING YOU ARE PARANOID! Just suggesting that maybe what you imagine to be fully true is only half true. Can you have a block party? Do you have a pool? Can you have a barbecue and invite all the neighbors? Make it a children-oriented affair and make sure their kids know about it and they’ll be sure to come. All I’m saying is talk to them, at least before you leave. You have nothing to lose. Let’s say you have a party and your worst fears are confirmed (doubtful, I’m sure). Well, then you’ve actually gained something. You’ll know you were right and your instincts were right on and it’s time to move on. What might also happen is that you see them as people, and they see you as a person, and you talk and get to know each other better and the kids get along and pretty soon you’ll all be borrowing sugar from each other and waving as you pull out of your driveways. From where I sit, it’s pretty easy for me to say all this. But, I’ve done it! So ha! I speak from experience. We had these neighbors (I live in an apartment) that I was certain hated  us until I summoned up an incredible amount of courage and knocked on the door and met the most incredible couple I’ve ever met in my life. Long story short, I was wrong simply because I failed to get the whole picture. Again, this is me – I don’t mean to imply that this applies to your situation. Now, I am the building "friendly-guy" because I WANT to know my neighbors. Incredible growth for me – personally and illness-wise. Well, I gotta go to bed. Thanks for sharing so much with me. You keep trusting your gut and things will work out! John from San Diego – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > LOL! > John, > Your letter has me smiling!   I do try and be a good mother, because my family > is my life, but I wouldn’t call me terrific (but I do appreciate hearing it! > > Bipolar people tend to be very visionary, and enter parenthood with visionary > hopes.  I think it is much harder for us to realize that we are made out of the > same stuff as the rest of our species.   Although I could always spot a > perfectionist in my proximity, I came late to the realization that I was one of > the worst when it came to demanding perfection(from myself!) > I don’t charge in and try to fix problems anymore like I used to… I wait and > see how things play themselves out… say when the kids fight, or when they > make a horrible mess, etc. Now I see that if the kids are going to be problem > solvers, they must be allowed to handle the small ones… otherwise they won’t > have any skills when it comes to big ones, so I see that the "do nothing" > approach when appropriately applied, is for their greater good.  They don’t > need 911MOM all the time. > I still find myself wishing that I was like other "normal" parents, and I hope > that I will mature out of this.  They have their share of difficulties too. > My biggest wound in parenting is that some of my neighbor’s children are not > allowed to play with my children.  I am a bit of a scandal in my neighborhood. > There has been high drama in my house several years ago due to the accident. > Ironically, the problems were medical, and resulted in an amputation.  I did > freak out I admit.  I was near death, and I tried to refuse treatment when I > knew that amputation was at hand.  The fire department broke into my house, and > the surgery was performed in spite of my flat-out protests.   I suppose if I > had been out on the street, I would have wondered what the hell was going on. > I have never offered an explanation to anyone of what happened.  This is due to > the fact that I am easily brought to tears just thinking about my loss. > On top of that, our financial lifestyle is disturbing to my neighbors.  My > husband is hispanic, and people have accused him of dealing drugs!   The > reality is that he is immensely educated, manages an airline, and we travel for > free. > Our free mobility coupled with  bipolar spontaneity (bag is always packed and > we are out the door with the word "go"!) looks like we are living a totally > unplanned life that some find just too disturbing.  There is the appearance > that we live the life of the freeNeasy but really, we eat every paycheck, and > live in a plain old middle class neighborhood and are just like everyone else. > I think that if I didn’t have this illness, I would have felt more confident > about developing relationships and understandings with my neighbors.  I am > immensely paranoid that my friends and neighbors will find out about my > "diagnosis".  In the meantime, they have come up with all sorts of assessments, > that are far worse than the truth… and lacking in good people skills, I am > just ignoring their taunts, which I imagine is only contributing to more absurd > speculation. > My children are young enough to not be quite aware that they have been shunned, > and I am in a desperate search to find a new place to live. > I have endured unbelieable sufferings here, and while it is permanent, I think > at this point that literally moving on is the only solution. > I don’t want my children to have to pay the price for how people see me.  This > is my big challenge in parenting. > Sincerely, > Christine

Response:

[snip] >What I’m wondering is what’s it like being a > BD parent.  I’m basically stable except for occasional "bad" periods that > manifest themselves in short temperedness and irritability.  Are there any > parents out there who have advice or suggestions to offer?  Also has anyone > dealt with the irritability problem? >                            Thanks, Kevin

I have a little girl. and Bipolar II, nonresponsive to treatment.  Baby? Plan on having some form of "escape". You will need it. I think that it is becuz of the illness that the normal behavior of a small child becomes absolutely obnoxious. I guess whether having children is right for you depends a lot on how much stress and frustration and Noise you can handle before you start to wig out. Maybe borrow someone’s deaf, irritable, barking dog and see how you do. Because children require a whole lot more out of you than any other relationship you can imagine.  Personally, I would not suggest having children unless you know for sure that you are not going to pass it on to them. I mean, how in control are you? How much stress, etc can you handle? They pick up on everything. Once I had my daughter I ended up in hospital twice. She’s a wonderful girl but I never counted on the noise and frustration and sheer volume of need. Children need so much from us. And they do not understand that you are ill. They take things very personally.  If you are willing to talk to them and explain your illness and everything, stay in constant communication with them then they have a chance of understanding and not getting depressed themselves. Am I making sense? A lot of it depends on who will be the primary caregiver, and how severe your illness is. I would suggest babysitting someone else’s little child and see how you cope with their crying. Because for me the crying becomes like someone screaming inside my head and it is unbearable. How much are you inclined to fits of rage, how high is your frustration level? There are so many questions to ask yourself. I would not give up my girl for anything, but I am not sure it was the right choice for my mental health, and now the chance for guilt if she comes up with the illness. I am just hoping things are easier as she gets older. For now her dad bears the brunt of responsibility.  Irritability? I generally make myself go to bed or away from people. I find that clumsiness and inability to think clearly always accompany the irrability and that I am better off going back to bed. Otherwise I compound my frustration level by dropping things and failing to comprehend what is being said. Hope this help, Splungette

Response:

Kevin, I am very interested in this kind of discussion.  I have three kids right now, and we are in the adoption process(which is another topic in itself!LOL).  (I gave birth to first 3). You pose a good question about the irritability problem.   Sometimes, there is so much going on… or so much has gone on in one day, that I feel kind of brittle… and find myself on sensory information overload.   It is a very unpleasant feeling. How do I cope?  I have something called a white noise machine in my room!   Radio Shack makes it: its called the "Dream Machine" and costs about $40. A half hour listening to one of the continuous modes on the machine help quite a bit… also, I close the room and am by myself…. this is no easy task on somedays….. each age level of your child demands a good strategy for having a 1/2 hr escape. So there is one strategy… Also, I get help.  I usually need full-time help for about 7-10 consecutive days in the fall… usually November/December.  I am talking about childcare help. Then, there is house-cleaning help.  Splurge if you must.  Order may be very necessary when chaos rules. Then I have arrangements for my youngest… because sometimes I worry that I am not attentive enough when I am not well, and he goes to a drop off center which is a ball for him. I have deliberately guided my children to cultivate abilities/skills/talents that require solice/quite/focus/time. I splurge on books, puzzles, art/sewing/cooking supplies, and they are well on their way to developing a strong inner life. Also, I am frank with the children when I am not well…. and I always let them know that they are not the cause… that I was born this way. We know in our home that we are "different", but they know that different has a place in this world too.  My kids have friends where the family life is different, less "colorful" etc., and I think it is a good experience for them to see that there are different ways to function as a family. Unfortunately, I have had some hospitalizations here and there, and my children were told at my request,  that I was out-of-town.  I prefer that at this time in my life.  Perhaps this is due to the fact that I was in a terrible accident, and before a "strategy" could be implemented, my children saw me suffer terribly- ambulence/blood drive/last rites/family freaking out.   For me, it is ultra important that I do the parenting, not the other way around.  Kids are going to worry… but I strongly feel that their sense of safety/confidence is transmitted through the parent. The reality is very likely that I am raising a future bipolar person, and I keep that in mind alot… that I must transmit coping skills on which they can model themselves.  In the event that they don’t get it, there is still a likely chance again that they may experience it again when they themselves are parents.  So I don’t think the experience of having a bipolar parent is wasted, one way or another. I have more to say… but I have to check on my youngest…. I’ll add more later!  This is a good topic! Christine

Response:

The recent "discussion" on Reproductive rights of Bipolars brought up a related question that I’ve been grappling with for some time.  I am 29 been on Lithium for 13 years and Depokote for about a month.  I’m engaged and we plan on having kids eventually.  What I’m wondering is what’s it like being a BD parent.  I’m basically stable except for occasional "bad" periods that manifest themselves in short temperedness and irritability.  Are there any parents out there who have advice or suggestions to offer?  Also has anyone dealt with the irritability problem?                                 Thanks, Kevin

Response:

> >I simply want to insert that this is genetic, so be doubly cautious about the >genetic possibility that you could pass on the disorder. > Cautious?  What exactly are you saying here?  Doubly cautious? > I wish you would be more specific.

A rubber AND foam.  You asked for it. Gayle

Response:

>A rubber AND foam.

I am still confused.  What does birth control have to do with this?

Response: