Pure Parents

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Neither is Karen’s intolerance.  I was a great scout, by the way, and an >even greater Scoutmaster.  But I understood that, as an atheist, the BSA >didn’t want me, so I quit. >The irony is that, aside from my proclivity for cursing, I’m just as moral >as any other scout leader.  But because I do not believe in supernatural >beings, the BSA deems me, and others like me, as morally unfit to lead >scouts.  Their loss. >– > So when you said the Scout Oath "On my honor, I will do my duty to God" what > did that mean to you? > Denise

It was a lie, like ALL the crap they try to force kids to believe. We simply redefine it to mean what we want till we’re big enough and sensible enough to refuse such stupid orders just to get to fucking go camping!!! Steve

Response:

> > >But because I do not believe in supernatural > >beings, the BSA deems me, and others like me, as morally unfit to lead > >scouts.  Their loss. > So when you said the Scout Oath "On my honor, I will do my duty to God" what > did that mean to you? > It was a lie, like ALL the crap they try to force kids to believe.

Or maybe not.  For one, he may not have been an atheist at the time the oath was taken.  And even if he was, I see at least two plausibilities.  He may have decided that since he has no duty to giant invisible pink bunnies, fulfilling the oath would be easy.  Or he may have taken the spirit of the oath and been swearing to do something else, like think about spirituality, philosophy, his place in the universe, etc. I was a cub scout for two months (before I figured out it was a wicked scam) and I was raised as an atheist.  If I ever took such an oath, I’m sure it made me uncomfortable, but I was unfortunately raised without a proper respect for oaths, and so I just did it anyway.  I know that’s the deal with the Pledge of Allegiance, I just did it because everyone else did it.  It didn’t occur to me until many years later that I’d been robbed.  My son’s teachers are not allowed to make him say the Pledge, I saw to that when I found out that he was saying it (I thought it was out of vogue) and had no idea what it meant. Chris

Response:

> scripsit: >He doesn’t want the boy scouts to come to his school because PC mommy >and daddy told him it was bad.  Do PC mommy and daddy actually want >to START their own program for whomever they want to? > Is establishing an alternative a necessary activity for those who wish > not to associate themselves with a group with which they disagree? > There are many people who have neither the time nor the resources to > do such a thing.

So, instead they use all methods to include lawsuit to force another organization to accept their children. >Much more fun for PC mommy and daddy to get some lawyer >to take the scouts to court for exercising their constitutional rights >to form a group for whomever they damn well please. > This is not guaranteed in the Constitution.  It isn’t even mentioned > there.  Perhaps you should actually sit down and read the document > sometime.

But, they sure feel it is their constitutional right to have their son join the scouts. >PC mommy and daddy don’t respect 1st amendment rights to >free association. > The Boy Scouts is a private organization, and as such is entitled to > discriminate against anyone they please.  But as a private > organization, they are also not entitled to the preferential treatment > that they receive from the government.

What of the other private organizations that receive preferential treatment; shouldn’t they also lose their’s? > This is why "PC mommy and > daddy" are filing lawsuits.

But only at organizations that have been declared non-PC.

Response:

>Neither is Karen’s intolerance.  I was a great scout, by the way, and an >even greater Scoutmaster.  But I understood that, as an atheist, the BSA >didn’t want me, so I quit. >The irony is that, aside from my proclivity for cursing, I’m just as moral >as any other scout leader.  But because I do not believe in supernatural >beings, the BSA deems me, and others like me, as morally unfit to lead >scouts.  Their loss. >–

So when you said the Scout Oath "On my honor, I will do my duty to God" what did that mean to you? Denise …who is currently trying to help her 4th Grade Webelos figure that out for themselves… To e-mail me directly, remember an object at rest tends to stay at rest…

Response:

Kabin: > This is not guaranteed in the Constitution.  It isn’t even mentioned > there.  Perhaps you should actually sit down and read the document > sometime. >I really get a kick out of people that come in ok.general and try to lecture >me on the Constitution.  It’s always funny.

  Personally, I am fond of those who talk of out "God–Given" rights enshrined in the Constitution.  They are inevitably paraphrasing the Declaration of Independence, which is not a binding document as far as the make up of our government, but just what it says at the top – a declaration of independence.  We still had to fight a war to make that declaration a reality – the British didn’t shit their pants at this piece of paper and automatically grant the colonies independence.  The teaching of actual American History in this nation is conspicuous by its absence. KRC

Response:

(Clifford D. Statum) scripsit: >The salient point was that the parents were more than willing to pass >judgement on the BSA, and yet apparently did nothing to provide their >son an alternative to the programs provided by the BSA.

Yet her logic is invalid, because it relies upon a false assumption, i.e. that one cannot protest an organization on moral grounds without establishing a new organization which is not morally objectionable. >Perhaps NAMBLA has a chapter their son can join ?

Am I to understand that you are equating homosexuality with pedophilia? >PC is a code for having a viewpoint that Big Brother doesn’t consider >appropriate.

Are you saying then that we should unquestioningly accept the viewpoints of Big Brother, and have our moral standards dictated to us by an outside source?  Perhaps one of us made a mistake in our semantics, but based on the connotations of the phrase "politically correct" and on that of "Big Brother", that is certainly what it sounds like. — "Because you can’t cotton to evil.  No sir.  You have to smack evil  on the nose with the rolled-up newspaper of justice and say, ‘Bad  evil. Bad, BAD evil.’"                           – The Tick

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.  The > teaching of actual American History in this nation is conspicuous by > its absence

Especially the part about why the Articles of Confederation were abandoned in favor of the current Constitution.  Basically, a bunch of banker/financier types wanted a stronger federal system so that they could foreclose mortgages and the like more easily across state lines, and so that they could combat the tendency of states with more poor people to enact laws that favored the poor. — Medieval Knievel aa# 1552 ICQ # 26667824

Response:

> This is not guaranteed in the Constitution.  It isn’t even mentioned > there.  Perhaps you should actually sit down and read the document > sometime.

I really get a kick out of people that come in ok.general and try to lecture me on the Constitution.  It’s always funny. — Knievel Has Risen From the Grave aa# 1552 ICQ # 26667824

Response:

scripsit: : >: He had written, "I don’t want the Boy Scouts to come to my school >: because my school allows everyone to come, because it’s a public >: school. But now not everyone is allowed in the Boy Scouts." >He doesn’t want the boy scouts to come to his school because PC mommy >and daddy told him it was bad.  Do PC mommy and daddy actually want >to START their own program for whomever they want to?

Is establishing an alternative a necessary activity for those who wish not to associate themselves with a group with which they disagree? There are many people who have neither the time nor the resources to do such a thing.  If a person decides to be a vegetarian, must they establish their own grocery store which sells no meat products in order not to be a hypocrite in your eyes? >It’s much more fun for PC mommy and daddy to lessen the opportunities >for boys to get involved with boy scouting and have positive character >building experiences.

That’s a straw man argument if ever I’ve heard one.  Prejudice is not fun.  Mindless religious bigotry is not enjoyable.  As a hypothetical situation, what would you do if the Boy Scouts decided not to admit Christians into their ranks?  Would you go out and start a Christian group which would admit such children?  Perhaps so, perhaps not.  But would you accuse those who didn’t do this of being hypocrites if they protested the Scouts because of this? >Much more fun for PC mommy and daddy to get some lawyer >to take the scouts to court for exercising their constitutional rights >to form a group for whomever they damn well please.

This is not guaranteed in the Constitution.  It isn’t even mentioned there.  Perhaps you should actually sit down and read the document sometime. >PC mommy and daddy don’t respect 1st amendment rights to >free association.

The Boy Scouts is a private organization, and as such is entitled to discriminate against anyone they please.  But as a private organization, they are also not entitled to the preferential treatment that they receive from the government.  This is why "PC mommy and daddy" are filing lawsuits. — "Because you can’t cotton to evil.  No sir.  You have to smack evil  on the nose with the rolled-up newspaper of justice and say, ‘Bad  evil. Bad, BAD evil.’"                           – The Tick

Response:

Statum) scrawled on the wall of the Keating Kabin: –cut– >The salient point was that the parents were more than willing to pass >judgement on the BSA, and yet apparently did nothing to provide their >son an alternative to the programs provided by the BSA. >Perhaps NAMBLA has a chapter their son can join ?

Nice straw man. –cut– >PC is a code for having a viewpoint that Big Brother doesn’t consider >appropriate.

Reynolds wrap, aisle four… KRC

Response:

Someone, I have really lost track of who, said: >Hi, PC Knievel here telling Karen to eat shit and die.  Oh dear, that wasn’t >very PC, was it?

Isn’t very scout like either. Rob Blau

Response:

> Someone, I have really lost track of who, said: > >Hi, PC Knievel here telling Karen to eat shit and die.  Oh dear, that wasn’t > >very PC, was it? > Isn’t very scout like either.

Neither is Karen’s intolerance.  I was a great scout, by the way, and an even greater Scoutmaster.  But I understood that, as an atheist, the BSA didn’t want me, so I quit. The irony is that, aside from my proclivity for cursing, I’m just as moral as any other scout leader.  But because I do not believe in supernatural beings, the BSA deems me, and others like me, as morally unfit to lead scouts.  Their loss. — Knievel Has Risen From the Grave aa# 1552 ICQ # 26667824

Response:

>> He doesn’t want the boy scouts to come to his school because PC mommy > and daddy told him it was bad. >Hi, PC Knievel here telling Karen to eat shit and die.  Oh dear, that wasn’t >very PC, was it?

The salient point was that the parents were more than willing to pass judgement on the BSA, and yet apparently did nothing to provide their son an alternative to the programs provided by the BSA. Perhaps NAMBLA has a chapter their son can join ? >"PC"  is conservative’s code talk for anyone who doesn’t agree with *their* >personal prejudices.  That way they don’t have to think about it, just wave >it away with the "PC" label.

PC is a code for having a viewpoint that Big Brother doesn’t consider appropriate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Knievel Has Risen From the Grave >aa# 1552 >ICQ # 26667824

Response:

> > my father was just telling me tonite that he is planning on doing just that > when he heard that United Way may cut funding to the Boy Scouts.  I’m sure > that there will be many more who will do likewise, and BSA will actaully > make out better financially because of it, since they will be getting all of > those people’s money, not just what’s left after United Way takes out their > cut…. > I don’t know why that sounds suspiciously like what my bi-polar father > would do.

I know others who are doing the same. Nothing bi-polar about it. > Seriously folks, they’re not required to give us money, and we get more > money if folks just donate straigt to us.  Optimally, I would like to see > donations only go to troops, but…

Right, and we’re not obliged to give them any money either. > The only thing another lawsuit would do is kill more PR.

Who suggested a law suit.  Anyways, it would be laughed out of court.  The BSA isn’t that stupid. Sam Howard

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : > : He had written, "I don’t want the Boy Scouts to come to my school > : because my school allows everyone to come, because it’s a public > : school. But now not everyone is allowed in the Boy Scouts." > : http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61283-2000Oct2.html > He doesn’t want the boy scouts to come to his school because PC mommy > and daddy told him it was bad.  Do PC mommy and daddy actually want > to START their own program for whomever they want to?  Oh, of course > not.  that’s too much work dealing with OTHER people’s children.  It’s > much more fun for PC mommy and daddy to lessen the opportunities for > boys to get involved with boy scouting and have positive character building > experiences.  Much more fun for PC mommy and daddy to get some lawyer > to take the scouts to court for exercising their constitutional rights > to form a group for whomever they damn well please.  PC mommy and daddy > don’t respect 1st amendment rights to free association.

So let them meet down at some church.

Response:

> Where I live, girls are allowed in Beavers, but boys aren’t allowed in > Sparks. > Go figure.

You said "beavers," huh huh huh. — Knievel Has Risen From the Grave aa# 1552 ICQ # 26667824

Response:

: : He had written, "I don’t want the Boy Scouts to come to my school : because my school allows everyone to come, because it’s a public : school. But now not everyone is allowed in the Boy Scouts." : http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61283-2000Oct2.html He doesn’t want the boy scouts to come to his school because PC mommy and daddy told him it was bad.  Do PC mommy and daddy actually want to START their own program for whomever they want to?  Oh, of course not.  that’s too much work dealing with OTHER people’s children.  It’s much more fun for PC mommy and daddy to lessen the opportunities for boys to get involved with boy scouting and have positive character building experiences.  Much more fun for PC mommy and daddy to get some lawyer to take the scouts to court for exercising their constitutional rights to form a group for whomever they damn well please.  PC mommy and daddy don’t respect 1st amendment rights to free association. Karen

Response:

> He doesn’t want the boy scouts to come to his school because PC mommy > and daddy told him it was bad.

Hi, PC Knievel here telling Karen to eat shit and die.  Oh dear, that wasn’t very PC, was it? "PC"  is conservative’s code talk for anyone who doesn’t agree with *their* personal prejudices.  That way they don’t have to think about it, just wave it away with the "PC" label. — Knievel Has Risen From the Grave aa# 1552 ICQ # 26667824

Response:

Kabin: –cut– >Hi, PC Knievel here telling Karen to eat shit and die.  Oh dear, that wasn’t >very PC, was it? >"PC"  is conservative’s code talk for anyone who doesn’t agree with *their* >personal prejudices.  That way they don’t have to think about it, just wave >it away with the "PC" label.

  Pretty much.  The "Political Correctness" movement was dying out by 1993, when "PCU" was released, lampooning it.  It doesn’t even exist anymore beyond a handful of dorks, and is indeed a bit of code-speak for the right wing – much like "multiculturism" – to throw around just so a label can be attached to something they don’t like. KRC (Think I should change that middle inintial to a "P"?)

Response:

I get it.  When I wasn’t allowed on the school soccer team in 8th grade I should have asked the school board to kick them off the school property, becuase they discriminated against me. Heck, that was even a school sponsored program not just one that uses school facilities.  I should have filed a lawsuit. <snip> > But his parents told him no.

<snip> > At the next Anne Arundel Board of Education meeting, Martin and > his family stepped up to the microphone and asked why the school > district was lending its facilities to a discriminatory organization.

And I’m sure that it was Martin’s idea too.  Why don’t they just say Martin’s parents. <snip> > "We’re experiencing a tremendous amount of support," spokesman Greg > Shields said. "There are 1,400 United Ways in the country. Most of > them have not changed their funding of Boy Scouts. And there are > thousands of school boards across the country and only a few have > changed" their policies.

Also, I am beginning to hear of people who are giving either part or all of what they previously gave to the United Way campaign directly to the BSA. > Gay rights advocates, though, say the growing debate shows how much > mainstream America cares about discrimination.

Or it shows the power of their lobby to do damage to anyone who opposes them, hence making others go along. <snip> Sam Howard

Response:

I hope the Scouts stick to their guns. The noise being made won’t be anything compared to the sound of parents yanking their kids out of Scouts if gays are allowed in. Where I live, girls are allowed in Beavers, but boys aren’t allowed in Sparks. Go figure.

Response:

>I hope the Scouts stick to their guns. The noise being made won’t be >anything compared to the sound of parents yanking their kids out of Scouts >if gays are allowed in. >Where I live, girls are allowed in Beavers, but boys aren’t allowed in >Sparks. >Go figure.

In the U.S., the Girl Scouts of the USA and the Boy Scouts of America are two completely different organizations, with two different Federal charters.  The GSUSA is headquartered in New York City; the BSA is headquartered in Irving, Texas.  In BSA there is a very strong connection between churches and troops, which is encouraged by the National Council.  In GSUSA, the connection is much weaker, if it exists at all.  (In GSUSA, churches provide meeting rooms but usually do not sponsor the troops as such.) The BSA allows high school-aged girls in their Venturing/Exploring programs. The GSUSA does not allow boys in their programs at all. The GSUSA does allow lesbians and gays to fully participate in Scouting and members are allowed to substitute a word they are comfortable with instead of "God" when making the Promise.  The BSA Promise/Oath still uses the word "God," although each member is to define what "God" means to them.  Both organizations do maintain that members believe in some sort of Higher Power/Force/Spirit greater than themselves, and "Duty to God" is in the first line of the Promise for both organizations.  The ban on gays and lesbians is based (AFAIK) on the BSA Promise to keep oneself "morally straight," which is the last line. Hope this clarifies the difference between the two organizations, especially for those in countries where Scouting is co-ed. Denise To e-mail me directly, remember an object at rest tends to stay at rest…

Response:

>Boy Scouts’ School Use Questioned >By Darragh Johnson >Washington Post Staff Writer >Wednesday, October 4, 2000 ; Page A01 >Eight-year-old Martin Thompson desperately wanted to join the >Boy Scouts. The uniforms were cool. Other boys in his class were >signing up. It looked like fun. >But his parents told him no. >"Our family does not agree with discrimination against anyone," his >mother, Susie Collins, told him, "including homosexuals."

That comment would have caused my five year old grandson to say: "But we discriminate against the Boy Scouts – and what’s a homowhat?" My dog frequently expresses his opinion of the Post. Hugh

Response:

> <snip> > "We’re experiencing a tremendous amount of support," spokesman Greg > Shields said. "There are 1,400 United Ways in the country. Most of > them have not changed their funding of Boy Scouts. And there are > thousands of school boards across the country and only a few have > changed" their policies. > Also, I am beginning to hear of people who are giving either part or all > of what they previously gave to the United Way campaign directly to the > BSA.

my father was just telling me tonite that he is planning on doing just that when he heard that United Way may cut funding to the Boy Scouts.  I’m sure that there will be many more who will do likewise, and BSA will actaully make out better financially because of it, since they will be getting all of those people’s money, not just what’s left after United Way takes out their cut…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> <snip> > Sam Howard

Response:

Boy Scouts’ School Use Questioned By Darragh Johnson Washington Post Staff Writer Wednesday, October 4, 2000 ; Page A01 Eight-year-old Martin Thompson desperately wanted to join the Boy Scouts. The uniforms were cool. Other boys in his class were signing up. It looked like fun. But his parents told him no. "Our family does not agree with discrimination against anyone," his mother, Susie Collins, told him, "including homosexuals." It was a big pill for a little boy to swallow, especially after the family attended back-to-school night at Georgetown East Elementary School in Annapolis. There, in the front hallway of the school, was a Boy Scout leader and a few Cub Scouts, handing out pamphlets encouraging kids to join. At the next Anne Arundel Board of Education meeting, Martin and his family stepped up to the microphone and asked why the school district was lending its facilities to a discriminatory organization. With that, the family dragged the county right into a controversy that is sweeping the nation. Ever since the Supreme Court ruled in June that the Boy Scouts could continue to bar gay members and leaders from its ranks, school districts, county governments and United Way chapters have begun breaking their ties with the all-American organization. Already companies such as Chase Manhattan Bank, Textron Inc. and Levi Strauss have cut financial support for the scouts. Most recently, school districts in California, Florida, Massachusetts, Minnesota and New York have joined others in banning the Boy Scouts’ special access to schools and schoolchildren. In Tucson last week, the city council became one of the latest local governments to ban public funding of the Boy Scouts and any other group that discriminates. The United Way chapter representing two New York counties joined more than a dozen others who have voted to halt funding of the group. Boy Scouts of America leaders say the national stir has done little to shake the grass-roots support they enjoy. "We’re experiencing a tremendous amount of support," spokesman Greg Shields said. "There are 1,400 United Ways in the country. Most of them have not changed their funding of Boy Scouts. And there are thousands of school boards across the country and only a few have changed" their policies. Gay rights advocates, though, say the growing debate shows how much mainstream America cares about discrimination. "The response to the Boy Scout policy seems to be emerging organically around the country, without a lot of organizing from the gay and lesbian organizations," said David Smith, spokesman for the Human Rights Campaign, a national gay advocacy group. "And that is incredibly heartening for us to see." Many school districts in the Washington area