Pure Parents

Question:

Yes, I do believe that…that’s what happened to me…along with sexual abuse that "we don’t talk about".  I’m an only child of a widowed mother….have been alone most of my life, provided with everything I ever needed but emotionally neglected. Neecie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Do you think the source of adult mental illness can be traced back > to devastating childhood experiences, with the exception of > birth defects, brain injuries, and post traumatic shock syndrome? > And, do these experiences eventually come to trigger a genetically > predisposed problem of biological origins? > Among the most common devastating childhood experiences, > I believe,  by percentage, is emotional neglect, followed by >  physical abuse. > Sometimes people are raised with nice clothes, toys, furniture, > and proper nutrition, only to be emotionally neglected and > ignored to the extent of emotional scarring. They are left to > "fend" for themselves so to speak. Could this result in a life- > long cry for attention, maybe leading to  narcissism, manic- > depression, and obsessive compulsion? > Some kids seem to overcome their adversities, becoming > over achievers. Others later develop disorders upon reaching > adulthood. > What about trying to live up to unrealistic expectations of > parents who are very successful? Or living with the proverbial > laconic father or mother, who never has and never can say > the words, " I love you". Is this the source of esteem issues? > I think it goes without saying that children who are abused spend > the rest of their lives trying to survive and recover. But must > they all develop mental illness? > Is the majority of mental illness a result of a traumaic childhood? > Certainly that is the theory behind borderline personality disorder. > What about all the other syndromes? > Is it heredity or environment? Is it biochemical, psychological > scarring, or both? Are we raising the mentally ill of tommorrow? > If so, what can we do as a society? > ~Mark

Response:

I would reverse the order of the psychological factors you listed… with > abuse leading the list. Physical abuse, sexual abuse and emotional abuse > are > among the most devastating experiences any individual can undergo… let > alone a child. > I agree. What I said was that emotional neglect may be more "common", > whereas, all the abuses mentioned are *by far* much more devastating. >  >Certain forms of neglect can also be considered abuse. > Yes. I also think that emotional neglect is often subconscious and > the parents are unaware or incapable of recognizing and/or changing >  their actions.

Actually, I was thinking more of parents who seriously do nat take care of their children… ignoring the need for medical care, proper food, a decent home area. A friend of mine’s wife went down in the crack epeidemic here in the late 80’s. She was mentally unabalanced to begin with, and the crack just sent her over the edge. The entire situation was a nightmare from beginning to end, so I’ll spare you the sordid and ugly details, but suffice it to say my friend got an emergency custody order …essentially kidnapping the children from the hell hole thay lived in. She would never physically harm the children, and was (psychotically and sporadically) very loving to them, but she absolutely neglected them…and abused them by having them mule crack for her. Her home was in psysical and psychic tumult….when she was finally evicted (from 2F in the building I still live in) they had to pull out a dead dog she let starve. They now live in a very middle class home, with a very succesful father and his lovely, intelligent wife… who adores them. The eldest is an emotional wreck…on probation for attempted murder. The middle kid is brilliant, funny (one of my favorite humans)… and he suffered form what doctors have called "failure to thrive"… and is extremely short and under weight. The youngest, a beautiful young woman, is the only one who really didn’t get too bent out od shape…but only time will tell. That’s the kind of "neglect as abuse" I was basically referring to. I agry that emotional neglect is devastating… the "wire mother" syndrome is all too common. But I think that the other knid of neglect is also very common. And it is punishable by law…it just isn’t too often. >  >And child abuse is so widespread in our "civilization" that one >wonders what the hell happened to us as a species. >  Lack of parential models, due to the disintegrating family unit, > coupled with sick behaviors which are passed on to the next > generation?  I can only guess.

I think that our civilization still views children as property. Couple this to our absolute disdain for the value of human life… increasing more and more every day… and I think that real child abuse and neglect are certain to increase. Jim M. — http://heimarmene.homestead.com/index.html

Response:

i would agree with leonessas assessment of the overall situation.i too had an extremely happy childhood,i was the oldest of 4 children with a stay at home mother(she is a writer,and wrote a couple books and articles for a major news-service weekly)my father is an old style craftsman in a fast disappearing art.both parents were very smart and successful-they made it look easy.i as the oldest was expected to shoulder the responsibility of being the oldest-which my family assures me i did well.while in the military at age 19 i hit my head during a very traumatic training accident-at 28 i went through a particularly nasty divorce that tore my world apart,and put me through emotions i never knew i had,and i felt them in ways i never knew i could.i had always been a oxymoron anyhow-(felt like a hippy in a uniform)-it began then for me……the psychosis came on at 32yoa as i fought what seemed to be a loosing battle to keep my life from spinning out of control…then i lost it in 1 bad day…which blew my existing life up….what followed was depression and mourning for what i had lost…and a search for a way to rebuild.after 5 years i found the right meds-and a way to rebuild….there WAS light at the end of that tunnel,it was just a very long tunnel…and it may prove to be a very long ladder back.but after what i’ve been through,i think i can,i think i can,i think i can….j.j.m. D.A.V.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is an interesting post and it rises the age old question of > nature versus nurture. > I had a really happy childhood.  My parents were very loving, and I > was smart and excelled in school, and took care of our kitten and > helped with the baby sister.  Nothing traumatic happened at all. > I am inclined to think that I was born bipolar.  I had the picturesque > childhood, with the exception of mood swings which can be traced > back to my diaries from when I was seven as well as my sleeping > patterns which have been bizarre since I was an infant. > The psychosis part of me I am more inclined to think was due to > PTSD.  I had a very traumatic incident happen in junior high school > which put my bipolar into full blast, including extreme dysphoria. > So I think I was born with the chemical imbalance, but I think that > the symptoms worsened after a traumatic experience. > I think that mental disorders usually have many factors depending > on the severity of it. > I dunno, I’m rambling and I more than likely am not making sense. >

i think it makes lots of sense……   keep in mind though, that ‘trauma’ can come from lots of sources. maybe there was some weird chemical in your drinking water. maybe your mother had a viral illness while she was pregnant with you, or was exposed to some toxin, or some teratogen (something that causes mutations). i often think that maybe people may have actually been ‘injured’ but by a source that cant be identified……. anna — "blessed am i to dwell in this beautiful temple" "allow me to accept these gifts with grace"

Response:

me of this: <I am inclined to think that I was born bipolar.  I had the picturesque <childhood, with the exception of mood swings which can be traced <back to my diaries from when I was seven as well as my sleeping <patterns which have been bizarre since I was an infant. < <The psychosis part of me I am more inclined to think was due to <PTSD.  I had a very traumatic incident happen in junior high school <which put my bipolar into full blast, including extreme dysphoria. This would describe my own situation well, except that the trauma that set the BP going happened later in life. You made lots of sense and your writing is excellent. Hopper

Response:

You have to distinguish between "mental" disorders and "personality" disorders. A mental disorder is primarily genetic, but usually requires some type of environmental insult to trigger it…stress, poor parenting, a virus, etc… A personality disorder is mainly aquired, although there may be some genetic predisposition. Almost anyone will develop PTSD if exposed to enough trauma, no matter what genetic material they have. Some people have such a strong genetic predisposition to bipolar that they will develop symptoms no matter how well they are raised. Bipolar disorder is about 80% genetic and 20% environmental. It has the strongest genetic correlation of any mental illness. Studies of identical twins who were separated at birth demonstrate this. And as Rob pointed out, there is another kind of heredity: Abusive parents tend to raise children who themselves become abusive parents, and this is passed down through the generations except for when an individual is able to break free from the cycle. Also, having a "mental" disorder can contribute to aquiring a "personality" disorder. Someone who has been suffering from untreated bipolar disorder while struggling to survive in a world that has little tolerance for individuals who are "different" can easily develop borderline personality disorder, anti social personality disorder, etc…   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Do you think the source of adult mental illness can be traced back >to devastating childhood experiences, with the exception of >birth defects, brain injuries, and post traumatic shock syndrome? >And, do these experiences eventually come to trigger a genetically >predisposed problem of biological origins? >Among the most common devastating childhood experiences, >I believe,  by percentage, is emotional neglect, followed by > physical abuse. >Sometimes people are raised with nice clothes, toys, furniture, >and proper nutrition, only to be emotionally neglected and >ignored to the extent of emotional scarring. They are left to >"fend" for themselves so to speak. Could this result in a life- >long cry for attention, maybe leading to  narcissism, manic- >depression, and obsessive compulsion? >Some kids seem to overcome their adversities, becoming >over achievers. Others later develop disorders upon reaching >adulthood. >What about trying to live up to unrealistic expectations of >parents who are very successful? Or living with the proverbial >laconic father or mother, who never has and never can say >the words, " I love you". Is this the source of esteem issues? >I think it goes without saying that children who are abused spend >the rest of their lives trying to survive and recover. But must >they all develop mental illness? >Is the majority of mental illness a result of a traumaic childhood? >Certainly that is the theory behind borderline personality disorder. >What about all the other syndromes? >Is it heredity or environment? Is it biochemical, psychological >scarring, or both? Are we raising the mentally ill of tommorrow? >If so, what can we do as a society? >~Mark

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is an interesting post and it rises the age old question of > nature versus nurture. > I had a really happy childhood.  My parents were very loving, and I > was smart and excelled in school, and took care of our kitten and > helped with the baby sister.  Nothing traumatic happened at all. > I am inclined to think that I was born bipolar.  I had the picturesque > childhood, with the exception of mood swings which can be traced > back to my diaries from when I was seven as well as my sleeping > patterns which have been bizarre since I was an infant. > The psychosis part of me I am more inclined to think was due to > PTSD.  I had a very traumatic incident happen in junior high school > which put my bipolar into full blast, including extreme dysphoria. > So I think I was born with the chemical imbalance, but I think that > the symptoms worsened after a traumatic experience. > I think that mental disorders usually have many factors depending > on the severity of it. > I dunno, I’m rambling and I more than likely am not making sense. >

Thanks for your response Leonessa. It (along with the others) has been perfect in helping my understanding of causality.  You made a lot of sense to me.. Mark

Response:

> Do you think the source of adult mental illness can be traced back to > devastating childhood experiences, with the exception of birth defects, > brain injuries, and post traumatic shock syndrome? >  And, do these experiences eventually come to trigger a genetically > predisposed problem of biological origins? >  Among the most common devastating childhood experiences, I believe,  by > percentage, is emotional neglect, followed by  physical abuse.< > Hey Mark;

<snipped> > I would reverse the order of the psychological factors you listed… with > abuse leading the list. Physical abuse, sexual abuse and emotional abuse are > among the most devastating experiences any individual can undergo… let > alone a child.

I agree. What I said was that emotional neglect may be more "common", whereas, all the abuses mentioned are *by far* much more devastating.  >Certain forms of neglect can also be considered abuse. Yes. I also think that emotional neglect is often subconscious and the parents are unaware or incapable of recognizing and/or changing  their actions.  >And child abuse is so widespread in our "civilization" that one >wonders what the hell happened to us as a species.

 Lack of parential models, due to the disintegrating family unit, coupled with sick behaviors which are passed on to the next generation?  I can only guess. ~Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jim M

Response:

This is an interesting post and it rises the age old question of nature versus nurture. I had a really happy childhood.  My parents were very loving, and I was smart and excelled in school, and took care of our kitten and helped with the baby sister.  Nothing traumatic happened at all. I am inclined to think that I was born bipolar.  I had the picturesque childhood, with the exception of mood swings which can be traced back to my diaries from when I was seven as well as my sleeping patterns which have been bizarre since I was an infant. The psychosis part of me I am more inclined to think was due to PTSD.  I had a very traumatic incident happen in junior high school which put my bipolar into full blast, including extreme dysphoria. So I think I was born with the chemical imbalance, but I think that the symptoms worsened after a traumatic experience. I think that mental disorders usually have many factors depending on the severity of it. I dunno, I’m rambling and I more than likely am not making sense. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Do you think the source of adult mental illness can be traced back > to devastating childhood experiences, with the exception of > birth defects, brain injuries, and post traumatic shock syndrome? > And, do these experiences eventually come to trigger a genetically > predisposed problem of biological origins? > Among the most common devastating childhood experiences, > I believe,  by percentage, is emotional neglect, followed by >  physical abuse. > Sometimes people are raised with nice clothes, toys, furniture, > and proper nutrition, only to be emotionally neglected and > ignored to the extent of emotional scarring. They are left to > "fend" for themselves so to speak. Could this result in a life- > long cry for attention, maybe leading to  narcissism, manic- > depression, and obsessive compulsion? > Some kids seem to overcome their adversities, becoming > over achievers. Others later develop disorders upon reaching > adulthood. > What about trying to live up to unrealistic expectations of > parents who are very successful? Or living with the proverbial > laconic father or mother, who never has and never can say > the words, " I love you". Is this the source of esteem issues? > I think it goes without saying that children who are abused spend > the rest of their lives trying to survive and recover. But must > they all develop mental illness? > Is the majority of mental illness a result of a traumaic childhood? > Certainly that is the theory behind borderline personality disorder. > What about all the other syndromes? > Is it heredity or environment? Is it biochemical, psychological > scarring, or both? Are we raising the mentally ill of tommorrow? > If so, what can we do as a society? > ~Mark

Response:

Do you think the source of adult mental illness can be traced back to devastating childhood experiences, with the exception of birth defects, brain injuries, and post traumatic shock syndrome? And, do these experiences eventually come to trigger a genetically predisposed problem of biological origins? Among the most common devastating childhood experiences, I believe,  by percentage, is emotional neglect, followed by  physical abuse. Sometimes people are raised with nice clothes, toys, furniture, and proper nutrition, only to be emotionally neglected and ignored to the extent of emotional scarring. They are left to "fend" for themselves so to speak. Could this result in a life- long cry for attention, maybe leading to  narcissism, manic- depression, and obsessive compulsion? Some kids seem to overcome their adversities, becoming over achievers. Others later develop disorders upon reaching adulthood. What about trying to live up to unrealistic expectations of parents who are very successful? Or living with the proverbial laconic father or mother, who never has and never can say the words, " I love you". Is this the source of esteem issues? I think it goes without saying that children who are abused spend the rest of their lives trying to survive and recover. But must they all develop mental illness? Is the majority of mental illness a result of a traumaic childhood? Certainly that is the theory behind borderline personality disorder. What about all the other syndromes? Is it heredity or environment? Is it biochemical, psychological scarring, or both? Are we raising the mentally ill of tommorrow? If so, what can we do as a society? ~Mark

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Do you think the source of adult mental illness can be traced back > to devastating childhood experiences, with the exception of > birth defects, brain injuries, and post traumatic shock syndrome? > And, do these experiences eventually come to trigger a genetically > predisposed problem of biological origins? > Among the most common devastating childhood experiences, > I believe,  by percentage, is emotional neglect, followed by >  physical abuse. > Sometimes people are raised with nice clothes, toys, furniture, > and proper nutrition, only to be emotionally neglected and > ignored to the extent of emotional scarring. They are left to > "fend" for themselves so to speak. Could this result in a life- > long cry for attention, maybe leading to  narcissism, manic- > depression, and obsessive compulsion? > Some kids seem to overcome their adversities, becoming > over achievers. Others later develop disorders upon reaching > adulthood. > What about trying to live up to unrealistic expectations of > parents who are very successful? Or living with the proverbial > laconic father or mother, who never has and never can say > the words, " I love you". Is this the source of esteem issues? > I think it goes without saying that children who are abused spend > the rest of their lives trying to survive and recover. But must > they all develop mental illness? > Is the majority of mental illness a result of a traumaic childhood? > Certainly that is the theory behind borderline personality disorder. > What about all the other syndromes? > Is it heredity or environment? Is it biochemical, psychological > scarring, or both? Are we raising the mentally ill of tommorrow? > If so, what can we do as a society? > ~Mark

Hi Mark, In the past I was more so a hard-headed empiricist regarding the cause of mental illness in general, than I am now.  I used to take a very hard-line approach like Eric does. And I think that may have been due largely to my Psych. education, which was behaviourist/physicalist, and also the b.s. that the other side offered. But I have become skeptical after all this reading; the stories I have read of war trauma, and the personal experiences, and of friends and relatives have made me rethink things.  I am more inclined to look at the effect of events on emotions and how emotions effect the brain, and they do. Childhood experiences are important because they set the stage for how the world is perceived both emotionally and cognitively later in life.  If the experiences are bad, then it may be hard to change that mental set; or they may leave irreversible brain changes in their path. As for the predetermined genetic influence – I think that is really in its infancy now.  Certainly some temperaments are different than others even at birth – we can observe that in animals even, and some children are born with disabilities.  But the whole thing is very complex and intertwined.. I think it is best to be cautious with deciding which factor if the critical one. Squiggles

Response:

> Do you think the source of adult mental illness can be traced back to

devastating childhood experiences, with the exception of birth defects, brain injuries, and post traumatic shock syndrome?  And, do these experiences eventually come to trigger a genetically predisposed problem of biological origins?  Among the most common devastating childhood experiences, I believe,  by percentage, is emotional neglect, followed by  physical abuse.< Hey Mark; I’ve been hearing from my pdoc about how more and more indications point to many "mood disorders’ as closely related to seizure disorders. I don’t think that somatic factors can be entirely ruled out… childhood high fevers, small head injuries and other factors could be contributing factors. I would reverse the order of the psychological factors you listed… with abuse leading the list. Physical abuse, sexual abuse and emotional abuse are among the most devastating experiences any individual can undergo… let alone a child. Certain forms of neglect can also be considered abuse. And child abuse is so widespread in our "civilization" that one wonders what the hell happened to us as a species. Jim M

Response:

Squiggles!   I have missed you, and your analytical observations!     You know, you have raised a valid source of comparison when you said ;    "Certainly some temperaments are different than others  even at birth – we can observe that in animals even,…" One has to ask, " how do you account for emotionally disturbed animals?"  This could possibly give us information which applies to the human species. Who among us doesn’t search for the origins of our problems? I know that I am searching for answers. I believe that I am making connections from my past which explain the person that i now am, and why I have affective disorders. Nice talking with you again, and I hope you are well. ~Mark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Do you think the source of adult mental illness can be traced back > to devastating childhood experiences, with the exception of > birth defects, brain injuries, and post traumatic shock syndrome? > And, do these experiences eventually come to trigger a genetically > predisposed problem of biological origins? > Among the most common devastating childhood experiences, > I believe,  by percentage, is emotional neglect, followed by >  physical abuse. > Sometimes people are raised with nice clothes, toys, furniture, > and proper nutrition, only to be emotionally neglected and > ignored to the extent of emotional scarring. They are left to > "fend" for themselves so to speak. Could this result in a life- > long cry for attention, maybe leading to  narcissism, manic- > depression, and obsessive compulsion? > Some kids seem to overcome their adversities, becoming > over achievers. Others later develop disorders upon reaching > adulthood. > What about trying to live up to unrealistic expectations of > parents who are very successful? Or living with the proverbial > laconic father or mother, who never has and never can say > the words, " I love you". Is this the source of esteem issues? > I think it goes without saying that children who are abused spend > the rest of their lives trying to survive and recover. But must > they all develop mental illness? > Is the majority of mental illness a result of a traumaic childhood? > Certainly that is the theory behind borderline personality disorder. > What about all the other syndromes? > Is it heredity or environment? Is it biochemical, psychological > scarring, or both? Are we raising the mentally ill of tommorrow? > If so, what can we do as a society? > ~Mark > Hi Mark, > In the past I was more so a hard-headed empiricist regarding > the cause of mental illness in general, than I am now.  I > used to take a very hard-line approach like Eric does. And > I think that may have been due largely to my Psych. education, > which was behaviourist/physicalist, and also the b.s. that > the other side offered. > But I have become skeptical after all this reading; > the stories I have read of war trauma, and the personal > experiences, and of friends and relatives have made me > rethink things.  I am more inclined to look at the effect > of events on emotions and how emotions effect the brain, > and they do. Childhood experiences are important because > they set the stage for how the world is perceived both > emotionally and cognitively later in life.  If the experiences > are bad, then it may be hard to change that mental set; > or they may leave irreversible brain changes in their > path. > As for the predetermined genetic influence – I think that > is really in its infancy now.  Certainly some temperaments > are different than others even at birth – we can observe > that in animals even, and some children are born with > disabilities.  But the whole thing is very complex and > intertwined.. I think it is best to be cautious with > deciding which factor if the critical one. > Squiggles

Response: