Pure Parents

Question:

> From what I understand, parenting a child with ADD/ADHD is vastly different > from parenting a child who is not. Whether or not his punishments seem > appropriate to you, they may be the course of action that his parents have > been told to take by a counselor or psychologist. Do not interfere with > that. As far as activities go, I’ve read that "busy" activities are far > better than passive ones….maybe art  projects where your nephew can do all > of the work with himself, taking him to a local playscape so he can burn off > some of his energy…anything that is going to keep him moving and > interested. > But please, teaching life lessons is his parents’ job, not yours. Leave it > that way.

I agree with you.  It gets into a very sticky situation when someone tells a parent how to parent their child.  I wrote the original post in a moment of extreme frustration and I did a terrible job of expressing the situation and my feelings on it.   His parents are not following the course of action that the therapists and teachers have suggested.  That’s a big part of the problem and it’s very difficult on him.   Anyway, when I said life lessons, what I meant was Boy Scout types of activities, but something that I can do with him.  Maybe helping to clean up a park – things like that.  Please read my other post to this thread – hopefully it explains the situation a lot better. Shelly —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I am looking for some suggestions and advice.  Without getting into the >full story which would take pages and pages of explaination, I have an 8 >year old nephew who is a bit of a mess.  He’s hyperactive, ADD, ADHD and >any other similar acronym you can think of.  He is in a program (SI) to >help him with his coordination and focus and he’s in a special school for >kids with learning disabilities.  He’s very booksmart, but socially he is >way behind his age group. >The biggest problem is that at times he is extremely disrespectful. >Basically he’s spoiled.  He gets whatever he wants and on the rare >occasions when he doesn’t he throws a fit.  He has no sense of >appreciation for the things he has or what people do for him.  Sometimes >he can be very sweet, but he clearly has a lot anger toward something and >a very distorted view of what’s appropriate.  I understand that he’s only >8, but I am judging his behavior by other kids his age and even younger. >His parents rarely discipline him and when they do it doesn’t match the >"crime."  They have tried to set limits, but that never lasts long and he >acts like a monster because he knows he will get attention that way and >can get away with it.  They continue to believe that they can talk to him >and reason him through things, but it just isn’t working. >I can’t change their parenting skills, but he is my nephew and I love him >and I am concerned about him.  I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion >on some things I can do with him to help teach him some values and >perspective.   He likes me a lot and I am in a position where I think I >can be a more positive force in his life.  I can take him to the movies >and things like that, but I am looking for ideas on more productive >activities.  Maybe some things that will help him learn respect.  It also >probably wouldn’t hurt for him to begin to see some of the realities of >life.  I think he believes every kid has it better than he does.  He could >stand to learn a few life lessons – gently of course.   >Your ideas are much appreciated. >Shelly

The reason he’s pissed off is because of some mistakes his parents made early on trying to brutalize him to coerce him. Now he has declared war. He will destroy himself to prove you can’t get away with that. The only cure is to draw a line, stay on your side of it and place him back on his, and you do not get to coerce him again for his attitude or speech. You pretend like he is nice and treat him like he is being nice but you don’t do anything extra for him unless he is really nice. Any other kind of coercion WILL NOT WORK. So don’t even try it!! All your cute little dramas that you headcases run through about taking vengeance or exercising harsh measures on that child to teach him "respect" won’t work, and they are the same place the evil came from that they originally secretly tried to do to that child that MADE him like this, so give it up!! His parents are secretly quite embarrassed and ashamed that they even tried it, so don’t YOU just suggest the same damned thing that they ALREADY discovered REALLY DOES NOT WORK!! People with little monsters always know they created them by trying to make them "respect" them and they harmed them early and that’s the kind of stuff that makes psychotic murderers if they go far enough!! You see, the things people think cause "spoiled" children DON’T. Instead it’s the stuff they try to PREVENT "spoiled" children that damage them that way!! That kind of early abuse causes the child to never ever let themselves love anyone, what psychologists call not having a conscience. Steve

Response:

>> Discipline, in the sense that most parents view it, ends up being an example > of power. Parents use discipline often to "show" the child that they are the > ones in control…that sort of parenting model ends up in struggle, or into > the child giving in to placate the parent, not because they believe that > it’s the right thing to do. Neither result is that of a healthy, respectful > parent-child relationship. >Everything you post seems to suggest a highly defensive reactive person >whose parenting is driven by hatred of and reaction to her own parents.

Wrong. Read it again. She’s against coercion as a show of power against the child to intimidate and demoralize them. If her parents’ stupidity taught her anything it taught her not to do that, and that is the more mature view. >You probably ought to come to terms with your past before inflicting its >consequences on your own kids.

If you believe in the vicious coercion of children then it is YOU who has never come to grips with what was done to YOU as a child! Steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > > > > and if you had a grand child who was allowed to jump on the couch > at > > > home > > > > > > and eat with his hands, would you allow the same when he visited > you > > > at > > > > > > your home? > > > > > Hahaha…you’re barking up the wrong tree…my toddler does jump on > the > > > > > couch and eat with her hands on occasion, and I don’t shove her in a > > > time > > > > > out, sit her in a corner, or swat her in the butt…God forbid, I’m > > > going to > > > > > be the parent of a child who grows up to be a HAPPY adult!!! hahaha > > > > I am sort of stunned by the simple mindedness that has decided that > the > > > > only two choices in parenting are hitting, lecturing and standing in > > > > corners or ’shoving her in a time out’ or alternative  allowing her to > > > > jump on grandma’s couch or smear food on the wall or whatever the hell > she > > > > feels like doing at the moment because its fun [and in another thread, > > > > thieve and be protected from the consequences of thieving] > > > I never said she jumps on Grandma’s couch…nor does she smear food on > my > > > walls, or anyone elses for that matter. My daughter is extremely well > > > behaved…without being punished into submission. In fact my husband and > I > > > are constantly complimented by complete strangers at what a sweet and > > > intelligent toddler we have. Most people are stunned to learn that she > is > > > only a year and a half old. We let her explore her world. We encourage > her > > > curiosity. Of course, she does have the occassional fit, to which we do > not > > > overreact …if we are at home, we let her freely vent her frustration > and > > > if we are at someone elses house, we take her into the bathroom or > another > > > quiet room until she calms down. > > > I think it is interesting that *you* are so simple minded as to think > > > because I don’t weild the heavy hand, that my children act like > heathens! > > > And as far as the little girl who took the bear goes, I think it’s sad > that > > > you are so sure that kids are inherently bad that they don’t deserve a > > > second chance. I suppose you never made a mistake when you were a child? > Or > > > maybe you did, and because you were *punished* you assume that is why > you > > > never did it again…rather than believing that you were, in fact, a > good > > > person who, after being told you made an error judgement, would not > repeat > > > that error. > > It is not punishment for a child to make good on her mistake.  What a > > strange idea.  How is returning the bear to Nana and appologizing for > > taking it, a punishment?  How is authorizing her to steal good parenting? > Ok, let’s review….the mom did *not* tell her it was ok…she explained to > the girl why she was wrong…I just don’t think it’s necessary to drag the > girl through embarassement in addition to what she already feels in order > for her to "learn her lesson!" > And also, let us not forget that the mom had promised not to tell Nana…and > then made the decision to tell her it was her [the daughter's] choice to > confess to Nana…and she preserved her daughter’s trust and empowered her > at the same time. > > And why do you continuously insist that discipline means being ugly and > abusive? > > Discipline does not mean punishment; it means guidance. > Discipline, in the sense that most parents view it, ends up being an example > of power. Parents use discipline often to "show" the child that they are the > ones in control…that sort of parenting model ends up in struggle, or into > the child giving in to placate the parent, not because they believe that > it’s the right thing to do. Neither result is that of a healthy, respectful > parent-child relationship. > Everything you post seems to suggest a highly defensive reactive person > whose parenting is driven by hatred of and reaction to her own parents. > You probably ought to come to terms with your past before inflicting its > consequences on your own kids.

You’re right, my parenting style is driven by a reaction to my own parents…and a desire to one of the few who does not simply REPEAT history. I refuse to treat my kids like possessions, I refuse to undermine their self-confidence by automatically jumping to the conclusion that they can’t make sound decisions on their own, I refuse to demand respect from them while showing them none, and I refuse to control them to the point where they second guess every move they make because they’ve spent 18 years of their lives being led to believe that’s what they need. I’m sorry if you don’t think it’s possible for there being a good outcome from believing that kids can make the right decision when given the chance or that they can correct the mistakes they make on their own without being told how to do so. Besides, if you were the grandmother in question, what would be the point of having your granddaughter apologize and admit to doing wrong if she had to be forced to do so? Forced apologies are rarely sincere ones. Sherrie — Momma to Madison Marie (10/18/00) and Nicholas Luke (10/17/01) Cafe Mom–Information, Humor and Inspiration For Moms, By Moms www.cafemom.net

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > > > and if you had a grand child who was allowed to jump on the couch > at > > home > > > > > and eat with his hands, would you allow the same when he visited > you > > at > > > > > your home? > > > > Hahaha…you’re barking up the wrong tree…my toddler does jump on > the > > > > couch and eat with her hands on occasion, and I don’t shove her in a > > time > > > > out, sit her in a corner, or swat her in the butt…God forbid, I’m > > going to > > > > be the parent of a child who grows up to be a HAPPY adult!!! hahaha > > > I am sort of stunned by the simple mindedness that has decided that > the > > > only two choices in parenting are hitting, lecturing and standing in > > > corners or ’shoving her in a time out’ or alternative  allowing her to > > > jump on grandma’s couch or smear food on the wall or whatever the hell > she > > > feels like doing at the moment because its fun [and in another thread, > > > thieve and be protected from the consequences of thieving] > > I never said she jumps on Grandma’s couch…nor does she smear food on > my > > walls, or anyone elses for that matter. My daughter is extremely well > > behaved…without being punished into submission. In fact my husband and > I > > are constantly complimented by complete strangers at what a sweet and > > intelligent toddler we have. Most people are stunned to learn that she > is > > only a year and a half old. We let her explore her world. We encourage > her > > curiosity. Of course, she does have the occassional fit, to which we do > not > > overreact …if we are at home, we let her freely vent her frustration > and > > if we are at someone elses house, we take her into the bathroom or > another > > quiet room until she calms down. > > I think it is interesting that *you* are so simple minded as to think > > because I don’t weild the heavy hand, that my children act like > heathens! > > And as far as the little girl who took the bear goes, I think it’s sad > that > > you are so sure that kids are inherently bad that they don’t deserve a > > second chance. I suppose you never made a mistake when you were a child? > Or > > maybe you did, and because you were *punished* you assume that is why > you > > never did it again…rather than believing that you were, in fact, a > good > > person who, after being told you made an error judgement, would not > repeat > > that error. > It is not punishment for a child to make good on her mistake.  What a > strange idea.  How is returning the bear to Nana and appologizing for > taking it, a punishment?  How is authorizing her to steal good parenting? > Ok, let’s review….the mom did *not* tell her it was ok…she explained to > the girl why she was wrong…I just don’t think it’s necessary to drag the > girl through embarassement in addition to what she already feels in order > for her to "learn her lesson!" > And also, let us not forget that the mom had promised not to tell Nana…and > then made the decision to tell her it was her [the daughter's] choice to > confess to Nana…and she preserved her daughter’s trust and empowered her > at the same time. > And why do you continuously insist that discipline means being ugly and > abusive? > Discipline does not mean punishment; it means guidance. > Discipline, in the sense that most parents view it, ends up being an example > of power. Parents use discipline often to "show" the child that they are the > ones in control…that sort of parenting model ends up in struggle, or into > the child giving in to placate the parent, not because they believe that > it’s the right thing to do. Neither result is that of a healthy, respectful > parent-child relationship.

Everything you post seems to suggest a highly defensive reactive person whose parenting is driven by hatred of and reaction to her own parents. You probably ought to come to terms with your past before inflicting its consequences on your own kids.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > and if you had a grand child who was allowed to jump on the couch at > home > > > and eat with his hands, would you allow the same when he visited you > at > > > your home? > > Hahaha…you’re barking up the wrong tree…my toddler does jump on the > > couch and eat with her hands on occasion, and I don’t shove her in a > time > > out, sit her in a corner, or swat her in the butt…God forbid, I’m > going to > > be the parent of a child who grows up to be a HAPPY adult!!! hahaha > I am sort of stunned by the simple mindedness that has decided that the > only two choices in parenting are hitting, lecturing and standing in > corners or ’shoving her in a time out’ or alternative  allowing her to > jump on grandma’s couch or smear food on the wall or whatever the hell she > feels like doing at the moment because its fun [and in another thread, > thieve and be protected from the consequences of thieving] > I never said she jumps on Grandma’s couch…nor does she smear food on my > walls, or anyone elses for that matter. My daughter is extremely well > behaved…without being punished into submission. In fact my husband and I > are constantly complimented by complete strangers at what a sweet and > intelligent toddler we have. Most people are stunned to learn that she is > only a year and a half old. We let her explore her world. We encourage her > curiosity. Of course, she does have the occassional fit, to which we do not > overreact …if we are at home, we let her freely vent her frustration and > if we are at someone elses house, we take her into the bathroom or another > quiet room until she calms down. > I think it is interesting that *you* are so simple minded as to think > because I don’t weild the heavy hand, that my children act like heathens! > And as far as the little girl who took the bear goes, I think it’s sad that > you are so sure that kids are inherently bad that they don’t deserve a > second chance. I suppose you never made a mistake when you were a child? Or > maybe you did, and because you were *punished* you assume that is why you > never did it again…rather than believing that you were, in fact, a good > person who, after being told you made an error judgement, would not repeat > that error.

It is not punishment for a child to make good on her mistake.  What a strange idea.  How is returning the bear to Nana and appologizing for taking it, a punishment?  How is authorizing her to steal good parenting? And why do you continuously insist that discipline means being ugly and abusive? Discipline does not mean punishment; it means guidance.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > > and if you had a grand child who was allowed to jump on the couch at > home > > > > and eat with his hands, would you allow the same when he visited you > at > > > > your home? > > > Hahaha…you’re barking up the wrong tree…my toddler does jump on the > > > couch and eat with her hands on occasion, and I don’t shove her in a > time > > > out, sit her in a corner, or swat her in the butt…God forbid, I’m > going to > > > be the parent of a child who grows up to be a HAPPY adult!!! hahaha > > I am sort of stunned by the simple mindedness that has decided that the > > only two choices in parenting are hitting, lecturing and standing in > > corners or ’shoving her in a time out’ or alternative  allowing her to > > jump on grandma’s couch or smear food on the wall or whatever the hell she > > feels like doing at the moment because its fun [and in another thread, > > thieve and be protected from the consequences of thieving] > I never said she jumps on Grandma’s couch…nor does she smear food on my > walls, or anyone elses for that matter. My daughter is extremely well > behaved…without being punished into submission. In fact my husband and I > are constantly complimented by complete strangers at what a sweet and > intelligent toddler we have. Most people are stunned to learn that she is > only a year and a half old. We let her explore her world. We encourage her > curiosity. Of course, she does have the occassional fit, to which we do not > overreact …if we are at home, we let her freely vent her frustration and > if we are at someone elses house, we take her into the bathroom or another > quiet room until she calms down. > I think it is interesting that *you* are so simple minded as to think > because I don’t weild the heavy hand, that my children act like heathens! > And as far as the little girl who took the bear goes, I think it’s sad that > you are so sure that kids are inherently bad that they don’t deserve a > second chance. I suppose you never made a mistake when you were a child? Or > maybe you did, and because you were *punished* you assume that is why you > never did it again…rather than believing that you were, in fact, a good > person who, after being told you made an error judgement, would not repeat > that error. > It is not punishment for a child to make good on her mistake.  What a > strange idea.  How is returning the bear to Nana and appologizing for > taking it, a punishment?  How is authorizing her to steal good parenting?

Ok, let’s review….the mom did *not* tell her it was ok…she explained to the girl why she was wrong…I just don’t think it’s necessary to drag the girl through embarassement in addition to what she already feels in order for her to "learn her lesson!" And also, let us not forget that the mom had promised not to tell Nana…and then made the decision to tell her it was her [the daughter's] choice to confess to Nana…and she preserved her daughter’s trust and empowered her at the same time. > And why do you continuously insist that discipline means being ugly and abusive? > Discipline does not mean punishment; it means guidance.

Discipline, in the sense that most parents view it, ends up being an example of power. Parents use discipline often to "show" the child that they are the ones in control…that sort of parenting model ends up in struggle, or into the child giving in to placate the parent, not because they believe that it’s the right thing to do. Neither result is that of a healthy, respectful parent-child relationship. Sherrie — Momma to Madison Marie (10/18/00) and Nicholas Luke (10/17/01) Cafe Mom–Information, Humor and Inspiration For Moms, By Moms www.cafemom.net

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > and if you had a grand child who was allowed to jump on the couch at home > > and eat with his hands, would you allow the same when he visited you at > > your home? > Hahaha…you’re barking up the wrong tree…my toddler does jump on the > couch and eat with her hands on occasion, and I don’t shove her in a time > out, sit her in a corner, or swat her in the butt…God forbid, I’m going to > be the parent of a child who grows up to be a HAPPY adult!!! hahaha > I am sort of stunned by the simple mindedness that has decided that the > only two choices in parenting are hitting, lecturing and standing in > corners or ’shoving her in a time out’ or alternative  allowing her to > jump on grandma’s couch or smear food on the wall or whatever the hell she > feels like doing at the moment because its fun [and in another thread, > thieve and be protected from the consequences of thieving]

I never said she jumps on Grandma’s couch…nor does she smear food on my walls, or anyone elses for that matter. My daughter is extremely well behaved…without being punished into submission. In fact my husband and I are constantly complimented by complete strangers at what a sweet and intelligent toddler we have. Most people are stunned to learn that she is only a year and a half old. We let her explore her world. We encourage her curiosity. Of course, she does have the occassional fit, to which we do not overreact …if we are at home, we let her freely vent her frustration and if we are at someone elses house, we take her into the bathroom or another quiet room until she calms down. I think it is interesting that *you* are so simple minded as to think because I don’t weild the heavy hand, that my children act like heathens! And as far as the little girl who took the bear goes, I think it’s sad that you are so sure that kids are inherently bad that they don’t deserve a second chance. I suppose you never made a mistake when you were a child? Or maybe you did, and because you were *punished* you assume that is why you never did it again…rather than believing that you were, in fact, a good person who, after being told you made an error judgement, would not repeat that error. IMO, kids are the purest example of humanity….that is until nut-ball, control-freak parents undermine the self-esteem that they are born with and turn them into emotional wrecks! > And BTW….when my overbearing, authoritarian, control freak parents say > something about my daughter standing on the couch, I tell them to butt the > hell out!!!! Lord knows I’m not going to let *them* bully my kids to the > point where they need counciling, like they did ME!! > so you are twisted because of a twisted childhood and instead of being an > authoritative parent you  define all guidance and discipline as abusive > and jump in the opposite direction?  how sad for your kids.

No…how lucky for them and for ME…because unlike my own parents, my children and I won’t have a relationship filled with phony respect and disdain. I wonder, what really is the point in demanding respect from children, and having them lie to your face to simply keep you off of their backs???? And I never said that I don’t guide my children either…for example, over two weeks ago my daughter climbed up on a storage bin that holds our dvd collection…which is placed in front of a large stereo unit that has a glass door. I removed her from the bin, and explained why climbing up right next to that glass could be dangerous. You know what??? She hasn’t climbed up their since. Maybe I’m lucky enough to have a youngster who understands what I say to her, and listens…but *I* know my kids, and acting a fair and calm manner works….no *punishing* needed. Sherrie — Momma to Madison Marie (10/18/00) and Nicholas Luke (10/17/01) Cafe Mom–Information, Humor and Inspiration For Moms, By Moms www.cafemom.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> if my own kids allow their kids to jump on THEIR couch I am hardly going > to intervene — but they aren’t jumping on mine.  luckily I didn’t rear > kids so neurotic that they can only parent in reaction to how they were > parented — or so I hope — I suspect they will use some reasonable common > sense as they seem to in other areas of their lives

Response:

> > you can be an aunt and take him places, feed him dinner, when he is older > travel with him — and when he is with you, you can set consistent > reasonable expectations for behavior. if he enjoys you and you enjoy him > and you plan things that don’t require more than he can do, then he may > well learn some self control and appropriate social behavior that may be > useful to him in other new settings. > Self-control cannot be learned when you constantly have someone ELSE telling > you what to do…in fact it works quite the opposite. Many people who come > from strict families go wild when they get out on their own because they are > getting their first taste of freedom. > It’s called SELF-control for a reason!

and once again you equate reasonable expectations for kids behavior, guidance, and helping kids develop self control with vicious abusive control —  kick them and ignore them are not the only models of parenting. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sherrie > — > Momma to Madison Marie (10/18/00) and Nicholas Luke (10/17/01) > Cafe Mom–Information, Humor and Inspiration For Moms, By Moms > www.cafemom.net >it is not  uncommon for kids to be > well behaved with grandparents who calmly set reasonable but consistent > expectations while behaving badly with parents who refuse to expect good > behavior and make excuses for bad behavior.  BUT you can’ expect to change > the family and you should be very carefull about critizing them [and kids > pick up on this even if you think you are being subtle] > everyone has to learn that different behaviors are expected in different > places — holding him accountable at your place is perfectly reasonable.

Response:

> > and if you had a grand child who was allowed to jump on the couch at home > and eat with his hands, would you allow the same when he visited you at > your home? > Hahaha…you’re barking up the wrong tree…my toddler does jump on the > couch and eat with her hands on occasion, and I don’t shove her in a time > out, sit her in a corner, or swat her in the butt…God forbid, I’m going to > be the parent of a child who grows up to be a HAPPY adult!!! hahaha

I am sort of stunned by the simple mindedness that has decided that the only two choices in parenting are hitting, lecturing and standing in corners or ’shoving her in a time out’ or alternative  allowing her to jump on grandma’s couch or smear food on the wall or whatever the hell she feels like doing at the moment because its fun [and in another thread, thieve and be protected from the consequences of thieving] > And BTW….when my overbearing, authoritarian, control freak parents say > something about my daughter standing on the couch, I tell them to butt the > hell out!!!! Lord knows I’m not going to let *them* bully my kids to the > point where they need counciling, like they did ME!!

so you are twisted because of a twisted childhood and instead of being an authoritative parent you  define all guidance and discipline as abusive and jump in the opposite direction?  how sad for your kids. if my own kids allow their kids to jump on THEIR couch I am hardly going to intervene — but they aren’t jumping on mine.  luckily I didn’t rear kids so neurotic that they can only parent in reaction to how they were parented — or so I hope — I suspect they will use some reasonable common sense as they seem to in other areas of their lives

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking for some suggestions and advice.  Without getting into the > full story which would take pages and pages of explaination, I have an 8 > year old nephew who is a bit of a mess.  He’s hyperactive, ADD, ADHD and > any other similar acronym you can think of.  He is in a program (SI) to > help him with his coordination and focus and he’s in a special school for > kids with learning disabilities.  He’s very booksmart, but socially he is > way behind his age group. > The biggest problem is that at times he is extremely disrespectful. > Basically he’s spoiled.  He gets whatever he wants and on the rare > occasions when he doesn’t he throws a fit.  He has no sense of > appreciation for the things he has or what people do for him.  Sometimes > he can be very sweet, but he clearly has a lot anger toward something and > a very distorted view of what’s appropriate.  I understand that he’s only > 8, but I am judging his behavior by other kids his age and even younger. > His parents rarely discipline him and when they do it doesn’t match the > "crime."  They have tried to set limits, but that never lasts long and he > acts like a monster because he knows he will get attention that way and > can get away with it.  They continue to believe that they can talk to him > and reason him through things, but it just isn’t working. > I can’t change their parenting skills, but he is my nephew and I love him > and I am concerned about him.  I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion > on some things I can do with him to help teach him some values and > perspective.   He likes me a lot and I am in a position where I think I > can be a more positive force in his life.  I can take him to the movies > and things like that, but I am looking for ideas on more productive > activities.  Maybe some things that will help him learn respect.  It also > probably wouldn’t hurt for him to begin to see some of the realities of > life.  I think he believes every kid has it better than he does.  He could > stand to learn a few life lessons – gently of course. > Your ideas are much appreciated. > Shelly > you can be an aunt and take him places, feed him dinner, when he is older > travel with him — and when he is with you, you can set consistent > reasonable expectations for behavior. if he enjoys you and you enjoy him > and you plan things that don’t require more than he can do, then he may > well learn some self control and appropriate social behavior that may be > useful to him in other new settings.

Self-control cannot be learned when you constantly have someone ELSE telling you what to do…in fact it works quite the opposite. Many people who come from strict families go wild when they get out on their own because they are getting their first taste of freedom. It’s called SELF-control for a reason! Sherrie — Momma to Madison Marie (10/18/00) and Nicholas Luke (10/17/01) Cafe Mom–Information, Humor and Inspiration For Moms, By Moms www.cafemom.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->it is not  uncommon for kids to be > well behaved with grandparents who calmly set reasonable but consistent > expectations while behaving badly with parents who refuse to expect good > behavior and make excuses for bad behavior.  BUT you can’ expect to change > the family and you should be very carefull about critizing them [and kids > pick up on this even if you think you are being subtle] > everyone has to learn that different behaviors are expected in different > places — holding him accountable at your place is perfectly reasonable.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> The reason he’s pissed off is because of some mistakes his parents made >> early on trying to brutalize him to coerce him. Now he has declared war. >> He will destroy himself to prove you can’t get away with that. The only >> cure is to draw a line, stay on your side of it and place him back on >> his, and you do not get to coerce him again for his attitude or speech. >> You pretend like he is nice and treat him like he is being nice but you >> don’t do anything extra for him unless he is really nice. Any other kind >> of coercion WILL NOT WORK. So don’t even try it!! >> All your cute little dramas that you headcases run through about taking >> vengeance or exercising harsh measures on that child to teach him "respect" >> won’t work, and they are the same place the evil came from that they >> originally secretly tried to do to that child that MADE him like this, >> so give it up!! >Please read my earlier post to clear this up.  When I said that about >activities to help him learn respect, I meant things like helping to clean >up a park or help serve soup at a soup kitchen.  Things like that. > If he wants to do those things THEN he DOESN"T NEED to learn nothing from > them. > If he doesn’t want to do those things, THEN he CAN learn NOTHING by being > coerced. > Steve

I agree.  I’m not going to make him do anything he doesn’t want to do. That’s why I am looking for a range of ideas to present to him. —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I am looking for some suggestions and advice.  Without getting into the > > full story which would take pages and pages of explaination, I have an 8 > > year old nephew who is a bit of a mess.  He’s hyperactive, ADD, ADHD and > > any other similar acronym you can think of.  He is in a program (SI) to > > help him with his coordination and focus and he’s in a special school for > > kids with learning disabilities.  He’s very booksmart, but socially he is > > way behind his age group. > > The biggest problem is that at times he is extremely disrespectful. > > Basically he’s spoiled.  He gets whatever he wants and on the rare > > occasions when he doesn’t he throws a fit.  He has no sense of > > appreciation for the things he has or what people do for him. Sometimes > > he can be very sweet, but he clearly has a lot anger toward something and > > a very distorted view of what’s appropriate.  I understand that he’s only > > 8, but I am judging his behavior by other kids his age and even younger. > > His parents rarely discipline him and when they do it doesn’t match the > > "crime."  They have tried to set limits, but that never lasts long and he > > acts like a monster because he knows he will get attention that way and > > can get away with it.  They continue to believe that they can talk to him > > and reason him through things, but it just isn’t working. > > I can’t change their parenting skills, but he is my nephew and I love him > > and I am concerned about him.  I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion > > on some things I can do with him to help teach him some values and > > perspective.   He likes me a lot and I am in a position where I think I > > can be a more positive force in his life.  I can take him to the movies > > and things like that, but I am looking for ideas on more productive > > activities.  Maybe some things that will help him learn respect.  It also > > probably wouldn’t hurt for him to begin to see some of the realities of > > life.  I think he believes every kid has it better than he does.  He could > > stand to learn a few life lessons – gently of course. > > Your ideas are much appreciated. > > Shelly > From what I understand, parenting a child with ADD/ADHD is vastly different > from parenting a child who is not. Whether or not his punishments seem > appropriate to you, they may be the course of action that his parents have > been told to take by a counselor or psychologist. Do not interfere with > that. As far as activities go, I’ve read that "busy" activities are far > better than passive ones….maybe art  projects where your nephew can do all > of the work with himself, taking him to a local playscape so he can burn off > some of his energy…anything that is going to keep him moving and > interested. > But please, teaching life lessons is his parents’ job, not yours. Leave it > that way. > and if you had a grand child who was allowed to jump on the couch at home > and eat with his hands, would you allow the same when he visited you at > your home?

Hahaha…you’re barking up the wrong tree…my toddler does jump on the couch and eat with her hands on occasion, and I don’t shove her in a time out, sit her in a corner, or swat her in the butt…God forbid, I’m going to be the parent of a child who grows up to be a HAPPY adult!!! hahaha And BTW….when my overbearing, authoritarian, control freak parents say something about my daughter standing on the couch, I tell them to butt the hell out!!!! Lord knows I’m not going to let *them* bully my kids to the point where they need counciling, like they did ME!! Sherrie — Momma to Madison Marie (10/18/00) and Nicholas Luke (10/17/01) Cafe Mom–Information, Humor and Inspiration For Moms, By Moms www.cafemom.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> First of all, it’s great that you want to be involved with your extended > family members and that you care about them and are trying to become well > informed as to how best to reach out to them. > Secondly, a diagnosis of ADD/H does not mean that a child is incapable of > developing a sense of empathy, social responsibility, respect for others, or > follow rules.  That is the result of parenting.  I have read your later > posts where you say that the parents are not following through with the > recommendations of the professionals whom they have contracted with to > assist them with their son.  This is really too bad and their son will pay > the penalty.

Yes, thank you.  This is exactly what I was trying (and failing) to say. Empathy, social responsibility and respect for others.  I certainly don’t expect perfection from him in those areas – far from it, but he’s not learning it at home and I want to do what I can to help him understand and develop a sense of all of these attributes.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You, however, can impact significantly on your nephew even though you are > not parenting him daily.  If you spend time with him set clear consistent > fair limits to which he knows the consequences.  If he breaks those limits > consistently and fairly apply the consequences.  Examples can include: > rudeness in public – a warning followed by removal from public situation > when rudeness continues.  Be a positive role model. > Invite him to participate with you in fun activities that you believe would > appeal to him.  I’m assuming you live close enough to him that you could > take him out for a Saturday afternoon or weeknight evening pretty easily. > Does he have an interest in astronomy?  Take him star gazing, to a > planetarium, etc.  Does he enjoy the out of doors?  Take him hiking, teach > him woodsmanship, canoeing, etc.  Does he enjoy drawing?  Encourage his > talent.  Take him to various public places with you.  Make it fun to be with > you [you apparently have already].  Just being with you and enjoying your > positive regard is a reward for him.  Encourage him to earn more time with > you.  Eventually [and maybe even now, depending on your relationship at this > time] you can start extending his limits to include how he treats others > when he is not with you.  For example:  contract with him that he will > successfully do X in order to go to place Y with you.  Make such contracts > as positively worded as possible [try to avoid the will not phrase, in other > words].  Give him the hairy eye ball when he is disrespectful to his parents > in your presence.  He will learn that there are different standards [he > probably already has learned this] and will live up to those he is presented > with.  I’m sure that you can recall this in your own experience when > comparing particularly good teachers with particularly bad ones. > Good luck.  I’m sure that you will get a lot of other feed back here.  I > hope that at least some of it proves helpful to you in your situation.

Thank you.  Those are great suggestions.  The issue of different standards is something that my mom is struggling with.  When they didn’t live with her, she set standards and stuck by them and he seemed happy with that most of the time, but with his parents and him in her house, it’s hard for her to maintain those standards.  Most of the time when she does, they get subverted by his parents (mostly his mom). Your suggestion seems like a great plan.  Thanks again. —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The reason he’s pissed off is because of some mistakes his parents made > early on trying to brutalize him to coerce him. Now he has declared war. > He will destroy himself to prove you can’t get away with that. The only > cure is to draw a line, stay on your side of it and place him back on > his, and you do not get to coerce him again for his attitude or speech. > You pretend like he is nice and treat him like he is being nice but you > don’t do anything extra for him unless he is really nice. Any other kind > of coercion WILL NOT WORK. So don’t even try it!! > All your cute little dramas that you headcases run through about taking > vengeance or exercising harsh measures on that child to teach him "respect" > won’t work, and they are the same place the evil came from that they > originally secretly tried to do to that child that MADE him like this, > so give it up!! >Please read my earlier post to clear this up.  When I said that about >activities to help him learn respect, I meant things like helping to clean >up a park or help serve soup at a soup kitchen.  Things like that.

If he wants to do those things THEN he DOESN"T NEED to learn nothing from them. If he doesn’t want to do those things, THEN he CAN learn NOTHING by being coerced. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> His parents are secretly quite embarrassed and ashamed that they even > tried it, so don’t YOU just suggest the same damned thing that they ALREADY > discovered REALLY DOES NOT WORK!! People with little monsters always know > they created them by trying to make them "respect" them and they harmed > them early and that’s the kind of stuff that makes psychotic murderers if > they go far enough!! > You see, the things people think cause "spoiled" children DON’T. Instead > it’s the stuff they try to PREVENT "spoiled" children that damage them > that way!! That kind of early abuse causes the child to never ever let > themselves love anyone, what psychologists call not having a conscience. > Steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I am looking for some suggestions and advice.  Without getting into the > > full story which would take pages and pages of explaination, I have an 8 > > year old nephew who is a bit of a mess.  He’s hyperactive, ADD, ADHD and > > any other similar acronym you can think of.  He is in a program (SI) to > > help him with his coordination and focus and he’s in a special school for > > kids with learning disabilities.  He’s very booksmart, but socially he is > > way behind his age group. > > The biggest problem is that at times he is extremely disrespectful. > > Basically he’s spoiled.  He gets whatever he wants and on the rare > > occasions when he doesn’t he throws a fit.  He has no sense of > > appreciation for the things he has or what people do for him.  Sometimes > > he can be very sweet, but he clearly has a lot anger toward something and > > a very distorted view of what’s appropriate.  I understand that he’s only > > 8, but I am judging his behavior by other kids his age and even younger. > > His parents rarely discipline him and when they do it doesn’t match the > > "crime."  They have tried to set limits, but that never lasts long and he > > acts like a monster because he knows he will get attention that way and > > can get away with it.  They continue to believe that they can talk to him > > and reason him through things, but it just isn’t working. > > I can’t change their parenting skills, but he is my nephew and I love him > > and I am concerned about him.  I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion > > on some things I can do with him to help teach him some values and > > perspective.   He likes me a lot and I am in a position where I think I > > can be a more positive force in his life.  I can take him to the movies > > and things like that, but I am looking for ideas on more productive > > activities.  Maybe some things that will help him learn respect.  It also > > probably wouldn’t hurt for him to begin to see some of the realities of > > life.  I think he believes every kid has it better than he does.  He could > > stand to learn a few life lessons – gently of course. > > Your ideas are much appreciated. > > Shelly > From what I understand, parenting a child with ADD/ADHD is vastly different > from parenting a child who is not. Whether or not his punishments seem > appropriate to you, they may be the course of action that his parents have > been told to take by a counselor or psychologist. Do not interfere with > that. As far as activities go, I’ve read that "busy" activities are far > better than passive ones….maybe art  projects where your nephew can do all > of the work with himself, taking him to a local playscape so he can burn off > some of his energy…anything that is going to keep him moving and > interested. > But please, teaching life lessons is his parents’ job, not yours. Leave it > that way. >and if you had a grand child who was allowed to jump on the couch at home >and eat with his hands, would you allow the same when he visited you at >your home?

If that was his family’s religion you might find you had to or do without a grand child! Steve

Response:

> The reason he’s pissed off is because of some mistakes his parents made > early on trying to brutalize him to coerce him. Now he has declared war. > He will destroy himself to prove you can’t get away with that. The only > cure is to draw a line, stay on your side of it and place him back on > his, and you do not get to coerce him again for his attitude or speech. > You pretend like he is nice and treat him like he is being nice but you > don’t do anything extra for him unless he is really nice. Any other kind > of coercion WILL NOT WORK. So don’t even try it!! > All your cute little dramas that you headcases run through about taking > vengeance or exercising harsh measures on that child to teach him "respect" > won’t work, and they are the same place the evil came from that they > originally secretly tried to do to that child that MADE him like this, > so give it up!!

Please read my earlier post to clear this up.  When I said that about activities to help him learn respect, I meant things like helping to clean up a park or help serve soup at a soup kitchen.  Things like that. > His parents are secretly quite embarrassed and ashamed that they even > tried it, so don’t YOU just suggest the same damned thing that they ALREADY > discovered REALLY DOES NOT WORK!! People with little monsters always know > they created them by trying to make them "respect" them and they harmed > them early and that’s the kind of stuff that makes psychotic murderers if > they go far enough!! > You see, the things people think cause "spoiled" children DON’T. Instead > it’s the stuff they try to PREVENT "spoiled" children that damage them > that way!! That kind of early abuse causes the child to never ever let > themselves love anyone, what psychologists call not having a conscience. > Steve

Again, please read my earlier response to Kane.  I hope it will help clear a lot of this up. —

Response:

In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking for some suggestions and advice.  Without getting into the > full story which would take pages and pages of explaination, I have an 8 > year old nephew who is a bit of a mess.  He’s hyperactive, ADD, ADHD and > any other similar acronym you can think of.  He is in a program (SI) to > help him with his coordination and focus and he’s in a special school for > kids with learning disabilities.  He’s very booksmart, but socially he is > way behind his age group. > The biggest problem is that at times he is extremely disrespectful. > Basically he’s spoiled.  He gets whatever he wants and on the rare > occasions when he doesn’t he throws a fit.  He has no sense of > appreciation for the things he has or what people do for him.  Sometimes > he can be very sweet, but he clearly has a lot anger toward something and > a very distorted view of what’s appropriate.  I understand that he’s only > 8, but I am judging his behavior by other kids his age and even younger. > His parents rarely discipline him and when they do it doesn’t match the > "crime."  They have tried to set limits, but that never lasts long and he > acts like a monster because he knows he will get attention that way and > can get away with it.  They continue to believe that they can talk to him > and reason him through things, but it just isn’t working. > I can’t change their parenting skills, but he is my nephew and I love him > and I am concerned about him.  I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion > on some things I can do with him to help teach him some values and > perspective.   He likes me a lot and I am in a position where I think I > can be a more positive force in his life.  I can take him to the movies > and things like that, but I am looking for ideas on more productive > activities.  Maybe some things that will help him learn respect.  It also > probably wouldn’t hurt for him to begin to see some of the realities of > life.  I think he believes every kid has it better than he does.  He could > stand to learn a few life lessons – gently of course.   > Your ideas are much appreciated. > Shelly > you can be an aunt and take him places, feed him dinner, when he is older > travel with him — and when he is with you, you can set consistent > reasonable expectations for behavior. if he enjoys you and you enjoy him > and you plan things that don’t require more than he can do, then he may > well learn some self control and appropriate social behavior that may be > useful to him in other new settings.  it is not  uncommon for kids to be > well behaved with grandparents who calmly set reasonable but consistent > expectations while behaving badly with parents who refuse to expect good > behavior and make excuses for bad behavior.  BUT you can’ expect to change > the family and you should be very carefull about critizing them [and kids > pick up on this even if you think you are being subtle] > everyone has to learn that different behaviors are expected in different > places — holding him accountable at your place is perfectly reasonable.

Thanks for the suggestions.  He actually behaves very well with me when we are alone.  Unfortunately I don’t get a lot of alone time with him, but I hope that will change in the near future.  And I agree, I don’t criticize his parents.  I made a mild suggestion once and they got very defensive, so I backed off right away.  I know that my role in his life as an aunt is limited.  I just want to make my time with him valuable to him, and by his reactions I would guess that it is.  Thanks again. —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking for some suggestions and advice.  Without getting into the > full story which would take pages and pages of explaination, I have an 8 > year old nephew who is a bit of a mess.  He’s hyperactive, ADD, ADHD and > any other similar acronym you can think of.  He is in a program (SI) to > help him with his coordination and focus and he’s in a special school for > kids with learning disabilities.  He’s very booksmart, but socially he is > way behind his age group. > The biggest problem is that at times he is extremely disrespectful. > Basically he’s spoiled.  He gets whatever he wants and on the rare > occasions when he doesn’t he throws a fit.  He has no sense of > appreciation for the things he has or what people do for him.  Sometimes > he can be very sweet, but he clearly has a lot anger toward something and > a very distorted view of what’s appropriate.  I understand that he’s only > 8, but I am judging his behavior by other kids his age and even younger. > His parents rarely discipline him and when they do it doesn’t match the > "crime."  They have tried to set limits, but that never lasts long and he > acts like a monster because he knows he will get attention that way and > can get away with it.  They continue to believe that they can talk to him > and reason him through things, but it just isn’t working. > I can’t change their parenting skills, but he is my nephew and I love him > and I am concerned about him.  I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion > on some things I can do with him to help teach him some values and > perspective.   He likes me a lot and I am in a position where I think I > can be a more positive force in his life.  I can take him to the movies > and things like that, but I am looking for ideas on more productive > activities.  Maybe some things that will help him learn respect.  It also > probably wouldn’t hurt for him to begin to see some of the realities of > life.  I think he believes every kid has it better than he does.  He could > stand to learn a few life lessons – gently of course. > Your ideas are much appreciated.

First of all, it’s great that you want to be involved with your extended family members and that you care about them and are trying to become well informed as to how best to reach out to them. Secondly, a diagnosis of ADD/H does not mean that a child is incapable of developing a sense of empathy, social responsibility, respect for others, or follow rules.  That is the result of parenting.  I have read your later posts where you say that the parents are not following through with the recommendations of the professionals whom they have contracted with to assist them with their son.  This is really too bad and their son will pay the penalty. You, however, can impact significantly on your nephew even though you are not parenting him daily.  If you spend time with him set clear consistent fair limits to which he knows the consequences.  If he breaks those limits consistently and fairly apply the consequences.  Examples can include: rudeness in public – a warning followed by removal from public situation when rudeness continues.  Be a positive role model. Invite him to participate with you in fun activities that you believe would appeal to him.  I’m assuming you live close enough to him that you could take him out for a Saturday afternoon or weeknight evening pretty easily. Does he have an interest in astronomy?  Take him star gazing, to a planetarium, etc.  Does he enjoy the out of doors?  Take him hiking, teach him woodsmanship, canoeing, etc.  Does he enjoy drawing?  Encourage his talent.  Take him to various public places with you.  Make it fun to be with you [you apparently have already].  Just being with you and enjoying your positive regard is a reward for him.  Encourage him to earn more time with you.  Eventually [and maybe even now, depending on your relationship at this time] you can start extending his limits to include how he treats others when he is not with you.  For example:  contract with him that he will successfully do X in order to go to place Y with you.  Make such contracts as positively worded as possible [try to avoid the will not phrase, in other words].  Give him the hairy eye ball when he is disrespectful to his parents in your presence.  He will learn that there are different standards [he probably already has learned this] and will live up to those he is presented with.  I’m sure that you can recall this in your own experience when comparing particularly good teachers with particularly bad ones. Good luck.  I’m sure that you will get a lot of other feed back here.  I hope that at least some of it proves helpful to you in your situation. -Aula

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking for some suggestions and advice.  Without getting into the > full story which would take pages and pages of explaination, I have an 8 > year old nephew who is a bit of a mess.  He’s hyperactive, ADD, ADHD and > any other similar acronym you can think of.  He is in a program (SI) to > help him with his coordination and focus and he’s in a special school for > kids with learning disabilities.  He’s very booksmart, but socially he is > way behind his age group. > The biggest problem is that at times he is extremely disrespectful. > Basically he’s spoiled.  He gets whatever he wants and on the rare > occasions when he doesn’t he throws a fit.  He has no sense of > appreciation for the things he has or what people do for him.  Sometimes > he can be very sweet, but he clearly has a lot anger toward something and > a very distorted view of what’s appropriate.  I understand that he’s only > 8, but I am judging his behavior by other kids his age and even younger. > His parents rarely discipline him and when they do it doesn’t match the > "crime."  They have tried to set limits, but that never lasts long and he > acts like a monster because he knows he will get attention that way and > can get away with it.  They continue to believe that they can talk to him > and reason him through things, but it just isn’t working. > I can’t change their parenting skills, but he is my nephew and I love him > and I am concerned about him.  I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion > on some things I can do with him to help teach him some values and > perspective.   He likes me a lot and I am in a position where I think I > can be a more positive force in his life.  I can take him to the movies > and things like that, but I am looking for ideas on more productive > activities.  Maybe some things that will help him learn respect.  It also > probably wouldn’t hurt for him to begin to see some of the realities of > life.  I think he believes every kid has it better than he does.  He could > stand to learn a few life lessons – gently of course.   > Your ideas are much appreciated. > Shelly

you can be an aunt and take him places, feed him dinner, when he is older travel with him — and when he is with you, you can set consistent reasonable expectations for behavior. if he enjoys you and you enjoy him and you plan things that don’t require more than he can do, then he may well learn some self control and appropriate social behavior that may be useful to him in other new settings.  it is not  uncommon for kids to be well behaved with grandparents who calmly set reasonable but consistent expectations while behaving badly with parents who refuse to expect good behavior and make excuses for bad behavior.  BUT you can’ expect to change the family and you should be very carefull about critizing them [and kids pick up on this even if you think you are being subtle] everyone has to learn that different behaviors are expected in different places — holding him accountable at your place is perfectly reasonable.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking for some suggestions and advice.  Without getting into the > full story which would take pages and pages of explaination, I have an 8 > year old nephew who is a bit of a mess.  He’s hyperactive, ADD, ADHD and > any other similar acronym you can think of.  He is in a program (SI) to > help him with his coordination and focus and he’s in a special school for > kids with learning disabilities.  He’s very booksmart, but socially he is > way behind his age group. > The biggest problem is that at times he is extremely disrespectful. > Basically he’s spoiled.  He gets whatever he wants and on the rare > occasions when he doesn’t he throws a fit.  He has no sense of > appreciation for the things he has or what people do for him.  Sometimes > he can be very sweet, but he clearly has a lot anger toward something and > a very distorted view of what’s appropriate.  I understand that he’s only > 8, but I am judging his behavior by other kids his age and even younger. > His parents rarely discipline him and when they do it doesn’t match the > "crime."  They have tried to set limits, but that never lasts long and he > acts like a monster because he knows he will get attention that way and > can get away with it.  They continue to believe that they can talk to him > and reason him through things, but it just isn’t working. > I can’t change their parenting skills, but he is my nephew and I love him > and I am concerned about him.  I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion > on some things I can do with him to help teach him some values and > perspective.   He likes me a lot and I am in a position where I think I > can be a more positive force in his life.  I can take him to the movies > and things like that, but I am looking for ideas on more productive > activities.  Maybe some things that will help him learn respect.  It also > probably wouldn’t hurt for him to begin to see some of the realities of > life.  I think he believes every kid has it better than he does.  He could > stand to learn a few life lessons – gently of course. > Your ideas are much appreciated. > Shelly > From what I understand, parenting a child with ADD/ADHD is vastly different > from parenting a child who is not. Whether or not his punishments seem > appropriate to you, they may be the course of action that his parents have > been told to take by a counselor or psychologist. Do not interfere with > that. As far as activities go, I’ve read that "busy" activities are far > better than passive ones….maybe art  projects where your nephew can do all > of the work with himself, taking him to a local playscape so he can burn off > some of his energy…anything that is going to keep him moving and > interested. > But please, teaching life lessons is his parents’ job, not yours. Leave it > that way.

and if you had a grand child who was allowed to jump on the couch at home and eat with his hands, would you allow the same when he visited you at your home?

Response:

> I am looking for some suggestions and advice.   > You are going to get plenty, most of it punishment and humiliation > oriented. > Without getting into the > full story which would take pages and pages of explaination, I have an 8 > year old nephew who is a bit of a mess.  He’s hyperactive, ADD, ADHD and > any other similar acronym you can think of. > A lot of that could be school diagnosed, that is more a result of > classroom management desires than really messed up children…of > course, after they are seen as ‘messed up’ we can pretty much count on > them to respond precisely as they think we wish them to…’messed up’.

First I want to say that I understand your harsh words.  I didn’t not explain the situation well and I definately was not intending to make him out to be a horrible child.  He’s not.  When I wrote the post I was extremely frustrated at some of the things I have been seeing happening with him.  I just felt like I wanted to do what I could for him and I still want to.  I hope you will give me a chance to explain more accurately.   Messed up was a poor choice of words.  He needs a lot of help.  He needs caring and understanding and emotional attention that is lacking in his life.  The reason that I included the information that I did is because not all activities would be appropriate or beneficial for him. > He is in a program (SI) to > help him with his coordination and focus and he’s in a special school for > kids with learning disabilities.  He’s very booksmart, > Well, he needs somewhere to retreat from the heavy trips laid on him > by the adults in his life. Sounds like he found one that’s pretty > good, all in all.

In my observations (and other’s) the heavy trips laid on him are a lack of structure and emotional support.  I have no desire to lay any trips on him. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> but socially he is > way behind his age group. > There is a lot of bull about developmental progress levels and > expectations by certain ages that originates from the public school > mindset. Remember, the age group kids and kids at the same > developmental levels are easier to make a program and curriculum for. > Kids are different from each other. Some kids won’t really read until > 10 or 11, others at 5. When they are 21 you often can’t tell any > difference between them in reading skills. > Don’t push the kids "social skills". He is him, unique, and special. > Einstein wasn’t much for social skills either. Tom Edison was a punk > when it came to getting along with others. Relax, value him for who he > is. It’ll do wonders for you and him.

I understand that kids are different and this is an area where I don’t believe he is being pushed.  I do value him for who is greatly.  He is funny and sweet and wonderful a lot of the time.  Again, this information was included because some activities might not be beneficial for him. > The biggest problem is that at times he is extremely disrespectful. > I suspect, from your description, that it has been taught to him by > example.

Personally, I have never been disrespectful to him.  Has he been taught that by example?  Maybe – probably.  His home life has no structure.  I think that is a big part of it.  Nothing is planned, everything is last minute, things are promised to him and not followed through on, things like that.  It’s very hard on him. > Basically he’s spoiled. > Emotionally charged value word. Pointless We are all ’spoiled’ in that > we do all we can to get our way. He needs to find out ways to get his > needs met as well as his wants that doesn’t conflict with adults > openly….he needs to learn, as all kids learn, how to be > constructively sneaky.

I agree here wholeheartedly. I used to teach ‘emotionally disturbed’ kids > how to out fox adults and what I taught them was to be clean, wear > nice clothes, talk politely, get grades, and suckup….just like you > and I do, and they could get nearly anything they wanted. I just > taught them to be honest with themselves about it not like the adults > that lie to themselves about it and call it things like "good > manners", "and civic duty", and "being responsible". > He gets whatever he wants > That simply is our overblown description. He does no such thing. If he > was the evil brat you describe his as and he could get whatever he > wanted his parents would be dead, he’d have endless pizza deliveries, > all the games he wants, and you’d be cleaning house for him.

Of course you’re right.  As I said before I was frustrated when I wrote the post and much of what I said was overblown. > and on the rare > occasions when he doesn’t he throws a fit. > Learned behavior. Absence of knowledge by the parents about what is > appropriate levels of power the child should be given for his age and > development. They are likely, as you seem to be, trying to control by > restriction rather than direct by cooperation.

Maybe.  They try to make deals with him – if you behave well you get rewarded.  When he doesn’t behave well, he gets yelled at, but the follow through isn’t there. > He’s trying to learn to be human, and his parents are blowing it. You > appear to be, despite your protestations of good will and concern. > Growing up is all about becoming empowered. When you and his parents > make yourselves his consultants, aides, providers of empowerment he’ll > be so damn busy learning to use his power that you’ll think he’s the > angel you want him to be.

I agree which is why I was asking for ideas on some things I can do with him to help him gain that empowerment.  As for him being an angel, I do not expect that from him or wish it upon him.  If we were all angels life would be boring. > Most parents are cowards. His are, apparently. You too, I suspect.

I don’t know how to address this.  What should I do not to be a coward? > He has no sense of > appreciation for the things he has or what people do for him. > Oh, now I start to see what’s up. Against what standard shall and 8 > year old measure the things he has? It’s a waste of time looking for > gratitude from a child that is being help back as he is. He’s trying > to struggle out from under your oppressive attitudes toward him, and > the accompanying behavior control you and his parents are trying to > lay on him. You’ll lose. He’ll be a horror as a teen, just what you > and his parents deserve for following the punishmen and humiliation > model.

Honestly, I do not behave oppressively toward him.  This assessment of his behavior (not in my poorly chosen words of course) has been expressed by his teachers, his play therapist, his coaches in sports.  It is only out of concern.  No one expects gratitude out of him.  I don’t really know how to explain what I am trying to say here.   > Sometimes > he can be very sweet, > So can we all. Why not focus on that sweetness activily unstead of, as > I suspect, sighing a sigh of relief and sitting passively on your ass? > This kid needs happy joyfull even riotiously joyful people around him.

Again I agree completely.  This was the original point of my post.  I already have fun with him.  I am just looking for some more interesting and productive ways to help him grow. > but he clearly has a lot anger toward something and > a very distorted view of what’s appropriate. > No more than you, I’d suspect. In fact he is more likely demonstrating > what is going on than the overcontrolling adults in his life are.

I think this is why he likes me so much is because I am one of the few adults in his life who is not full of tension and expectations.  I have fun with him and I am a person he can go to when he is stressed out.   I know my post didn’t seem that way.  I very much regret writing it in that moment of frustration. > Loosen up. Have fun with him. Know he’ll be 18 some day and gone. Hug > him lots. Tickle him and let him tickle you back. Blow lip farts on > his neck. Try some windowpane spit races. Get silly with this kid. You > and his parents are turning him into a potentially dangerous human > with your tight ass nonsense.

I do all of these things with him.  Tickling him, etc.   > I understand that he’s only > 8, > It doesn’t look to me like you ‘understand’ 8 at all, just know that > he is that age. Big difference in knowing and understanding. > but I am judging his behavior by other kids his age and even younger. > Yes you are. Were is your celebration of his uniqueness? We ask > adults, for mental health, to loosen up, play, be a child some of the > time. We ask a child, the one who needs play as a force of nature as a > learning tool, to stop being a child and act like a tight assed adult. > Sound normal to you? Sound healthy to you.

That’s not what I was trying to say.  As I stated above, my words were a very crude version of concerns that have been expressed by many people in his life. > Get down on the floor and play with cars with him, or whatever. Read > comic books, really funny ones, out loud to him. Let him read them to > you. > His parents rarely discipline him and when they do it doesn’t match the > "crime." > Oh yeah. I’ll bet. The rather typical authoritarian parent instead of > the much need authoritative parent that he needs. The ‘authoritative > parent’ is someone that makes it a point to learn both average > developmental information and are willing to study their unique > child’s development and support the child becoming empowered. That’s > really all we are about…personal power over the environment. We can > do it nice, or we can do it bad. You folks are teaching him ‘bad’.

His parents are … read more »

Response:

> I am looking for some suggestions and advice.  

You are going to get plenty, most of it punishment and humiliation oriented. > Without getting into the > full story which would take pages and pages of explaination, I have an 8 > year old nephew who is a bit of a mess.  He’s hyperactive, ADD, ADHD and > any other similar acronym you can think of.

A lot of that could be school diagnosed, that is more a result of classroom management desires than really messed up children…of course, after they are seen as ‘messed up’ we can pretty much count on them to respond precisely as they think we wish them to…’messed up’. > He is in a program (SI) to > help him with his coordination and focus and he’s in a special school for > kids with learning disabilities.  He’s very booksmart,

Well, he needs somewhere to retreat from the heavy trips laid on him by the adults in his life. Sounds like he found one that’s pretty good, all in all. > but socially he is > way behind his age group.

There is a lot of bull about developmental progress levels and expectations by certain ages that originates from the public school mindset. Remember, the age group kids and kids at the same developmental levels are easier to make a program and curriculum for. Kids are different from each other. Some kids won’t really read until 10 or 11, others at 5. When they are 21 you often can’t tell any difference between them in reading skills. Don’t push the kids "social skills". He is him, unique, and special. Einstein wasn’t much for social skills either. Tom Edison was a punk when it came to getting along with others. Relax, value him for who he is. It’ll do wonders for you and him. > The biggest problem is that at times he is extremely disrespectful.

I suspect, from your description, that it has been taught to him by example. > Basically he’s spoiled.

Emotionally charged value word. Pointless We are all ’spoiled’ in that we do all we can to get our way. He needs to find out ways to get his needs met as well as his wants that doesn’t conflict with adults openly….he needs to learn, as all kids learn, how to be constructively sneaky. I used to teach ‘emotionally disturbed’ kids how to out fox adults and what I taught them was to be clean, wear nice clothes, talk politely, get grades, and suckup….just like you and I do, and they could get nearly anything they wanted. I just taught them to be honest with themselves about it not like the adults that lie to themselves about it and call it things like "good manners", "and civic duty", and "being responsible". > He gets whatever he wants

That simply is our overblown description. He does no such thing. If he was the evil brat you describe his as and he could get whatever he wanted his parents would be dead, he’d have endless pizza deliveries, all the games he wants, and you’d be cleaning house for him. > and on the rare > occasions when he doesn’t he throws a fit.

Learned behavior. Absence of knowledge by the parents about what is appropriate levels of power the child should be given for his age and development. They are likely, as you seem to be, trying to control by restriction rather than direct by cooperation. He’s trying to learn to be human, and his parents are blowing it. You appear to be, despite your protestations of good will and concern. Growing up is all about becoming empowered. When you and his parents make yourselves his consultants, aides, providers of empowerment he’ll be so damn busy learning to use his power that you’ll think he’s the angel you want him to be. Most parents are cowards. His are, apparently. You too, I suspect. > He has no sense of > appreciation for the things he has or what people do for him.

Oh, now I start to see what’s up. Against what standard shall and 8 year old measure the things he has? It’s a waste of time looking for gratitude from a child that is being help back as he is. He’s trying to struggle out from under your oppressive attitudes toward him, and the accompanying behavior control you and his parents are trying to lay on him. You’ll lose. He’ll be a horror as a teen, just what you and his parents deserve for following the punishmen and humiliation model. > Sometimes > he can be very sweet,

So can we all. Why not focus on that sweetness activily unstead of, as I suspect, sighing a sigh of relief and sitting passively on your ass? This kid needs happy joyfull even riotiously joyful people around him. > but he clearly has a lot anger toward something and > a very distorted view of what’s appropriate.

No more than you, I’d suspect. In fact he is more likely demonstrating what is going on than the overcontrolling adults in his life are. Loosen up. Have fun with him. Know he’ll be 18 some day and gone. Hug him lots. Tickle him and let him tickle you back. Blow lip farts on his neck. Try some windowpane spit races. Get silly with this kid. You and his parents are turning him into a potentially dangerous human with your tight ass nonsense. > I understand that he’s only > 8,

It doesn’t look to me like you ‘understand’ 8 at all, just know that he is that age. Big difference in knowing and understanding. > but I am judging his behavior by other kids his age and even younger.

Yes you are. Were is your celebration of his uniqueness? We ask adults, for mental health, to loosen up, play, be a child some of the time. We ask a child, the one who needs play as a force of nature as a learning tool, to stop being a child and act like a tight assed adult. Sound normal to you? Sound healthy to you. Get down on the floor and play with cars with him, or whatever. Read comic books, really funny ones, out loud to him. Let him read them to you. > His parents rarely discipline him and when they do it doesn’t match the > "crime."

Oh yeah. I’ll bet. The rather typical authoritarian parent instead of the much need authoritative parent that he needs. The ‘authoritative parent’ is someone that makes it a point to learn both average developmental information and are willing to study their unique child’s development and support the child becoming empowered. That’s really all we are about…personal power over the environment. We can do it nice, or we can do it bad. You folks are teaching him ‘bad’. > They have tried to set limits,

Nope. That’s not it at all. They are not setting limits for his progress and empowerment..really direction setting…but instead are setting barriers up for their own comfort and convenience, just as I read you are doing. > but that never lasts long and he > acts like a monster

He acts like he wants appropriate levels of power for an 8 year old. And he acts like he is unique and wants that valued. Instead he is diagnosed and boxed up with a bunch of diagnosed kids and subjected to acts of cruelty to force him to conform to a pattern that doesn’t fit him. He’s in healthy resistance actually. I’ve seen lots of kids like this. I set them free when I can. Value who he is and get off the social patterning. > because he knows he will get attention that way and > can get away with it.  

Why yes, he is communicating loud and clear, and you dummies have your fingers in your ears, and your eyes covered. If a child is using one way of getting attention that you don’t like does it not follow that you are failing to give him the attention he craves when he is doing what you DO like? You can flat out contract this with most 8 year olds, right in the open, instead of the sneaky manipulative way so many adults have with childre. Just tell him you don’t like being with him when he manage. So far your language is blameful and if he heard it he’d be hurt and humiliated and come back at you hatefully. I know I do. > They continue to believe that they can talk to him > and reason him through things,

Time wasting. Kids want action. Now. Learn to direct without coersion. It actually can be done you know. Teaching him to ‘reason’ is just adult bull talk for coerce into doing it my way. For shit sakes, give him some choices, including ways that aren’t just convenient for the adult. When he gets that you care about his feelings, really care, he’ll have what he needs to care about yours. Or don’t you work that way with your adult friends and intimates? > but it just isn’t working.

You mean it’s inconvenient for you and the parents and you don’t like seeing him reactive to being manipulated instead of trusted and directed with compassion and care? > I can’t change their parenting skills,

Why not? How about away from punitive humiliation and sneaky coersion, to nice open statements and loving concern. Seems to work on a lot of formerly ‘difficult’ kids. > but he is my nephew and I love him > and I am concerned about him.

I’m going to take you are your word. Though I’d like to suggest a little celebration of him than criticism. You’d be devastated if you heard someone talking about YOU this way, no? > I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion > on some things I can do with him to help teach him some values and > perspective.

I got the simpliest answer of all. FIND OUT AND VALUE WHAT HIS ARE. At 8 he’s bursting with ideas about how things are supposed to be. Explore those with him, respectfully, even when you think he is dead wrong. Just keep opening the door, "Hmmm, and what else do you think Kids his age are actually pretty damn sophisticated social engineers (the area I think you are most concerned about). Let him talk, learn to listen. Get Tom Gordon’s PET, (Parent Effectiveness Training) and learn how to stop manipulation and start respecting children. It’ll make you cry if you really love the child when you discover how horribly disrespectful adults, and … read more »

Response:

I am looking for some suggestions and advice.  Without getting into the full story which would take pages and pages of explaination, I have an 8 year old nephew who is a bit of a mess.  He’s hyperactive, ADD, ADHD and any other similar acronym you can think of.  He is in a program (SI) to help him with his coordination and focus and he’s in a special school for kids with learning disabilities.  He’s very booksmart, but socially he is way behind his age group. The biggest problem is that at times he is extremely disrespectful. Basically he’s spoiled.  He gets whatever he wants and on the rare occasions when he doesn’t he throws a fit.  He has no sense of appreciation for the things he has or what people do for him.  Sometimes he can be very sweet, but he clearly has a lot anger toward something and a very distorted view of what’s appropriate.  I understand that he’s only 8, but I am judging his behavior by other kids his age and even younger. His parents rarely discipline him and when they do it doesn’t match the "crime."  They have tried to set limits, but that never lasts long and he acts like a monster because he knows he will get attention that way and can get away with it.  They continue to believe that they can talk to him and reason him through things, but it just isn’t working. I can’t change their parenting skills, but he is my nephew and I love him and I am concerned about him.  I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion on some things I can do with him to help teach him some values and perspective.   He likes me a lot and I am in a position where I think I can be a more positive force in his life.  I can take him to the movies and things like that, but I am looking for ideas on more productive activities.  Maybe some things that will help him learn respect.  It also probably wouldn’t hurt for him to begin to see some of the realities of life.  I think he believes every kid has it better than he does.  He could stand to learn a few life lessons – gently of course.   Your ideas are much appreciated. Shelly — —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking for some suggestions and advice.  Without getting into the > full story which would take pages and pages of explaination, I have an 8 > year old nephew who is a bit of a mess.  He’s hyperactive, ADD, ADHD and > any other similar acronym you can think of.  He is in a program (SI) to > help him with his coordination and focus and he’s in a special school for > kids with learning disabilities.  He’s very booksmart, but socially he is > way behind his age group. > The biggest problem is that at times he is extremely disrespectful. > Basically he’s spoiled.  He gets whatever he wants and on the rare > occasions when he doesn’t he throws a fit.  He has no sense of > appreciation for the things he has or what people do for him.  Sometimes > he can be very sweet, but he clearly has a lot anger toward something and > a very distorted view of what’s appropriate.  I understand that he’s only > 8, but I am judging his behavior by other kids his age and even younger. > His parents rarely discipline him and when they do it doesn’t match the > "crime."  They have tried to set limits, but that never lasts long and he > acts like a monster because he knows he will get attention that way and > can get away with it.  They continue to believe that they can talk to him > and reason him through things, but it just isn’t working. > I can’t change their parenting skills, but he is my nephew and I love him > and I am concerned about him.  I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion > on some things I can do with him to help teach him some values and > perspective.   He likes me a lot and I am in a position where I think I > can be a more positive force in his life.  I can take him to the movies > and things like that, but I am looking for ideas on more productive > activities.  Maybe some things that will help him learn respect.  It also > probably wouldn’t hurt for him to begin to see some of the realities of > life.  I think he believes every kid has it better than he does.  He could > stand to learn a few life lessons – gently of course. > Your ideas are much appreciated. > Shelly

From what I understand, parenting a child with ADD/ADHD is vastly different from parenting a child who is not. Whether or not his punishments seem appropriate to you, they may be the course of action that his parents have been told to take by a counselor or psychologist. Do not interfere with that. As far as activities go, I’ve read that "busy" activities are far better than passive ones….maybe art  projects where your nephew can do all of the work with himself, taking him to a local playscape so he can burn off some of his energy…anything that is going to keep him moving and interested. But please, teaching life lessons is his parents’ job, not yours. Leave it that way. Sherrie — Momma to Madison Marie (10/18/00) and Nicholas Luke (10/17/01) Cafe Mom–Information, Humor and Inspiration For Moms, By Moms www.cafemom.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > —

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