Have you heard about what New York Sen. Charles Schumer’s meddling minions tried to do here in my home state of Maryland to embarrass a Republican opponent? Don’t bother with The New York Times if you want details. Since revelations of the scandal first broke a week ago on the national wires and in the rest of the New York media, the Times has failed to print a single word about the Dems’ invasive

> Revealing FACTS on the ACLU from its own writings > by Diane Dew > http://dianedew.com/aclu.htm > Ever notice how the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) seems to > take on only cases that are anti-Christian – pro-sodomy, pro-abortion, > anti-family, pro-pornography, pro-prostitution, pro-euthanasia, > pro-homosexual, pro-infanticide, pro-crime, pro-humanism, anti-God — > and, except for atheism, anti-religion?

Ever notice that the Fundie Christians want to pass laws so that their own warped view of behavior is imposed on the entire nation? > It calls itself the American Civil Liberties Union, but the ACLU is > not American; it is uncivil (to the unborn, which are shredded > mercilessly to pieces without anesthetic); and it knows nothing of > true liberty, which can only be found in Jesus Christ, when one is set > free from the bondage of all the SIN this evil organization PROMOTES!

So YOU are one of those Fundie Christians who want to make the rules for my life, regardless of my inclinations or community standards.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Revealing FACTS on the ACLU from its own writings > by Diane Dew > http://dianedew.com/aclu.htm > Ever notice how the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) seems to > take on only cases that are anti-Christian – pro-sodomy, pro-abortion, > anti-family, pro-pornography, pro-prostitution, pro-euthanasia, > pro-homosexual, pro-infanticide, pro-crime, pro-humanism, anti-God — > and, except for atheism, anti-religion? >Ever notice that the Fundie Christians want to pass laws so that their >own warped view of behavior is imposed on the entire nation? > It calls itself the American Civil Liberties Union, but the ACLU is > not American; it is uncivil (to the unborn, which are shredded > mercilessly to pieces without anesthetic); and it knows nothing of > true liberty, which can only be found in Jesus Christ, when one is set > free from the bondage of all the SIN this evil organization PROMOTES! >So YOU are one of those Fundie Christians who want to make the rules for >my life, regardless of my inclinations or community standards.

I don’t know about him but the following, which you conveniently edited out, surely doesn’t sell to the average American. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Stated Goals >The ACLU’s founder, Roger Baldwin, stated: "We are for SOCIALISM, >disarmament, and ultimately for abolishing the state itself… We seek >the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied >class, and the SOLE CONTROL of those who produce wealth. COMMUNISM is >the goal." (Source: Trial and Error, by Geo. Grant) >The ACLU is destructive to the fabric of our society. Christians must >recognize Satan as the source – the instigator – when the end results >of an organization’s efforts are only "to kill, to steal, and to >destroy." All we need to is examine the (rotten) fruit. >Following are some of the stated goals of the ACLU, from its own >published Policy Issues: >

When I heard about this place it made me sick to my stomach.  It still does since it’s still in business.  It’s the only thing that’s ever moved me to write my Congressional representatives (not that it did any good).  People need to informed about this place so there will be pressure to shut down this Guantanamo for children. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0%2C11913%2C987172%2C00… http://www.orwelltoday.com/tranquility.shtml

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>When I heard about this place it made me sick to my stomach.  It still does >since it’s still in business.  It’s the only thing that’s ever moved me to >write my Congressional representatives (not that it did any good).  People >need to informed about this place so there will be pressure to shut down >this Guantanamo for children. >http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0%2C11913%2C987172%2C00… >http://www.orwelltoday.com/tranquility.shtml

Unbelievable — but (obviously?) the problem isn’t just the fact that this institution exists.  While it’s probably a good idea to shut this specific "behaviour modification centre" down, the blame for it existing in the first place rests 99.95% on the shoulders of the parents.  Quote: "I tell you, I was at my wits’ end with my son. We’d tried military school, but he got kicked out. He never got into trouble with the police. He was one step from that. What it was is, he was going through this identity crisis. Peer pressure. Pot got involved." Jesus H. Motherloving Christ.  Your child had a ‘behavioural problem’, so you tried to stick him in military school — and he rebelled.  Imagine that.  He never had a problem with the authorities (so, chances are he never did anything harmful to others), but he was a victim of "peer pressure," and "pot got involved," so you washed your hands of the whole parental responsibility thing and shipped him off to be reprogrammed — in a foreign country, by a completely unqualified headcase and a gang of strangers — and you signed off on allowing him to be physically abused, to boot. What’s the answer to THAT?  Personally, my solution would be dragging anyone that signs that contract into the woods, shooting them, and putting their kids up for adoption — but I expect that wouldn’t be a popular point of view. Here’s an alternative: set up a centre that offers hands-free child-rearing services for $50K/year and a 51% custody "stake"; then, under a different name, set up an adoption auction service based on hard currency.   Shazam!  Everyone’s a winner, baby. – R.

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> When I heard about this place it made me sick to my stomach.  It > still does since it’s still in business.  It’s the only thing that’s > ever moved me to write my Congressional representatives (not that it > did any good).  People need to informed about this place so there > will be pressure to shut down this Guantanamo for children.

What’s the legal position of an airline which transports a minor against their will to such a facility? — Simon Elliott    http://www.ctsn.co.uk

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> When I heard about this place it made me sick to my stomach.  It still does > since it’s still in business.  It’s the only thing that’s ever moved me to > write my Congressional representatives (not that it did any good).  People > need to informed about this place so there will be pressure to shut down > this Guantanamo for children.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0%2C11913%2C987172%2C00… > http://www.orwelltoday.com/tranquility.shtml

Bloody hell. Not that I normally take much notice of such off topic things, but, bloody hell! This *has* to be against international law?! If not, then why not?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When I heard about this place it made me sick to my stomach.  It still > does > since it’s still in business.  It’s the only thing that’s ever moved me > to > write my Congressional representatives (not that it did any good). > People > need to informed about this place so there will be pressure to shut down > this Guantanamo for children. > http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0%2C11913%2C987172%2C00… > http://www.orwelltoday.com/tranquility.shtml > Bloody hell. Not that I normally take much notice of such off topic > things, > but, bloody hell! > This *has* to be against international law?! If not, then why not?

I’m a dad & my son makes me very proud, but even if he had gone off the rails, I could *never* have handed over his upbringing or care to others. NEVER. What in the name of God are these parents thinking? Are they so inept & imbecilic they can’t see how damaging this is? No matter how extreme their children’s behaviour, this is barbaric. Criminal charges need to be lodged against them. It’s fairly certain that idiots who would consider such a course of action are likely to be responsible for having created the situation in the first place, through irresponsible & callous parenting.

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And you’re posting this to an old movies newsgroup because . . ? — Frank in Seattle Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney "I leave you now in radiant contentment"      – "Whistling in the Dark"

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> When I heard about this place it made me sick to my stomach.  It still > does > since it’s still in business.  It’s the only thing that’s ever moved me to > write my Congressional representatives (not that it did any good).  People > need to informed about this place so there will be pressure to shut down > this Guantanamo for children.

Terrible, yes…but can you send other peoples kids there? steve — "A man was severely injured today in the Knutsford area."             Benny Hill

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> And you’re posting this to an old movies newsgroup because . . ?

Because the groups that this should really be posted are overcrowded and full of trolls.  The message is clearly marked off-topic.

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> And you’re posting this to an old movies newsgroup because . . ? > Because the groups that this should really be posted are overcrowded and > full of trolls.  The message is clearly marked off-topic.

Do you have any concept of how illogical your defense of bad manners is? — Frank in Seattle Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney "I leave you now in radiant contentment"      – "Whistling in the Dark"

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> "I tell you, I was at my wits’ end with my son. We’d tried military school, > but he got kicked out. He never got into trouble with the police. He was one > step from that. What it was is, he was going through this identity crisis. > Peer pressure. Pot got involved."

Although if my kid got involved with Pol Pot, I’d probably try something extreme too. swac The Spanking Fields

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> > > And you’re posting this to an old movies newsgroup because . . ? > Because the groups that this should really be posted are overcrowded and > full of trolls.  The message is clearly marked off-topic. > Do you have any concept of how illogical your defense of bad manners is?

No.  I’m not a troll, I’m just trying to highlight a problem that people who read these groups might be interested in.  Again, it’s marked off-topic, so what’s your problem?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let’s pretend there are no black boxes.  Would you begrudge accident > investigatoes the ability to physically examine YOUR vehicle (tires, > crumpled areas, paint transfers, skid marks) on the basis that it > violates your 4th or 5th amendment rights?  I think most reasonable > people understand that forensic evidence from property is not self > incrimination.  I think also that there is no violation of 4th > amendement protections of the property, if it is sitting crumpled or > battered state at the scene of an accident.  That’s pretty much clear > cut probable cause if there ever was. > Back to black boxes.  I am of the thinking that the 5 seconds of > telemtry recorded by the black bax before an impact, and which is only > examined upon accident investigation, fall squarely into the realm of > forensics.  And as such is okay by me. > What I would NOT be okay with, are systems that monitor AND report in > real time or report anything at anytime if there is otherwise no cause > to investigate. >I wouldn’t have any problem with them looking at my vehicle. But then that’s >all open and in public for everyone to view. The recorder on the other hand >isn’t. I’m against the black box because I consider it a gross invasion of >privacy. Just the way I view it.

Not all of what is looked at on a vehicle is "all open and in the public for anyone to view".  For example, if the steering column linkage is hidden from view, would investigators be violating your privacy by examining it?  Don’t think so. I understand the way you look it at.  What I don’t understand is why. Reasons given don’t add up to me.  Are their hidden reasons?  I dunno, maybe we just think different.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Well, I own a car with an SDM and was slightly annoyed to find out >> after I bought the car that it came with one.  Nowhere in the owner’s >> manual does it warn you that your car may contain information that >> could be considered evidence against you. >> It’s no big deal, but GM didn’t tell anyone this. > I don’t know what manual you have, but they made it crystal clear in > mine. > On page 7-9 of my Chevy Cavalier’s owner manual: > 2001 Firebird.  Page 1-26: > Your vehicle is equipped with a crash sensing and diagnostic module, > which records information about the air bag system.  The module records > information about the readiness of the system, when the system commands > air bag inflation and driver’s safety belt usage at deployment.  The > module also records speed, engine rpm, brake and throttle data. > No mention of "and if you crash, the cops and your insurance company > will seize it to try and determine the cause of the accident." > I have a clean record, I’m just uncomfortable with having an electronic > nanny onboard recording everything incase I might crash.  How long until >  it’s standard for your insurance company and cops to seize them from > every accident? > Ray

It’s starting: http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0409/06/-264474.htm Monday, September 6, 2004 Kentucky case to use automotive ‘black box’ technology Associated Press       Previous reports        Editorial: Black Boxes in Cars Open Privacy Concerns LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) — A northern Kentucky manslaughter trial could join a growing number of cases nationwide in which jurors receive information from data recorders pulled from vehicles. Federal officials estimate the so-called black boxes — similar to those found in aircraft — are installed in 15 percent of the nation’s 200 million passenger vehicles. Like their aerial counterparts, the black boxes in cars and trucks keep precise information about speed and braking just before a crash. The northern Kentucky case begins in January in Kenton County. Lloyd Robinson, of Florence, faces a manslaughter charge in the May 2003 death of Kentucky Fish & Wildlife Resources Officer Doug Bryant. Prosecutors say Bryant stopped Robinson along Interstate 75 near Florence, but Robinson sped away after Bryant got out of his truck to approach Robinson’s car. They both crashed, and Bryant, 62, was killed. The trial had been scheduled for this summer but was delayed after the judge ordered Kenton County Commonwealth’s Attorney Bill Crockett to subpoena Dearborn, Mich.-based Ford Motor Co. for the data from Bryant’s truck and make it available to Robinson’s lawyer. Dean Pisacano, who is representing Robinson, said he is not sure yet whether the technology used in the truck will be useful. Mike Vaughn, a technology spokesman for Ford, said all Fords have had data recorders since 2002, but only a few models have advanced capabilities that have been the focus of critics of the technology. Some of the boxes can record such information as pre-crash speed, braking, direction of travel and even seat-belt use. American Civil Liberties Union lawyers say motorists don’t necessarily know their vehicles have them, and information from the recorders could be used to invade people’s privacy. begin 666 redarrow.gif M1TE&.#EA# `*`(#_`,X“,# P"’Y! $“`$`+ ““`,“H`0 (2C(]YP+H, ` end begin 666 dot.gif ` end

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I bet the airlines wish that the NTSB wasn’t able to seize airplane > black boxes either.  I’m glad they can though.  I am totally for the > black boxes in cars too.  They help to find the truth.  That’s a good > thing.  So long as they are only used in a forensic capacity, and not > in a tattle tale mode, I think it’s good.  By foresic I mean like skid > marks and other things are examined as the result of a major mishap. > By tattle tale mode I mean, hmm… you just drove "120mph, I’m going > to transmit this to the authorities" type thing. >I dunno, I think as long as they can get to it then it can be self >incriminating. Maybe this’ll be something that’ll reach the courts.

Let’s pretend there are no black boxes.  Would you begrudge accident investigatoes the ability to physically examine YOUR vehicle (tires, crumpled areas, paint transfers, skid marks) on the basis that it violates your 4th or 5th amendment rights?  I think most reasonable people understand that forensic evidence from property is not self incrimination.  I think also that there is no violation of 4th amendement protections of the property, if it is sitting crumpled or battered state at the scene of an accident.  That’s pretty much clear cut probable cause if there ever was. Back to black boxes.  I am of the thinking that the 5 seconds of telemtry recorded by the black bax before an impact, and which is only examined upon accident investigation, fall squarely into the realm of forensics.  And as such is okay by me. What I would NOT be okay with, are systems that monitor AND report in real time or report anything at anytime if there is otherwise no cause to investigate.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let’s pretend there are no black boxes.  Would you begrudge accident > investigatoes the ability to physically examine YOUR vehicle (tires, > crumpled areas, paint transfers, skid marks) on the basis that it > violates your 4th or 5th amendment rights?  I think most reasonable > people understand that forensic evidence from property is not self > incrimination.  I think also that there is no violation of 4th > amendement protections of the property, if it is sitting crumpled or > battered state at the scene of an accident.  That’s pretty much clear > cut probable cause if there ever was. > Back to black boxes.  I am of the thinking that the 5 seconds of > telemtry recorded by the black bax before an impact, and which is only > examined upon accident investigation, fall squarely into the realm of > forensics.  And as such is okay by me. > What I would NOT be okay with, are systems that monitor AND report in > real time or report anything at anytime if there is otherwise no cause > to investigate.

I wouldn’t have any problem with them looking at my vehicle. But then that’s all open and in public for everyone to view. The recorder on the other hand isn’t. I’m against the black box because I consider it a gross invasion of privacy. Just the way I view it.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Well, I own a car with an SDM and was slightly annoyed to find out >> after I bought the car that it came with one.  Nowhere in the owner’s >> manual does it warn you that your car may contain information that >> could be considered evidence against you. >> It’s no big deal, but GM didn’t tell anyone this.   > I don’t know what manual you have, but they made it crystal clear in mine. > On page 7-9 of my Chevy Cavalier’s owner manual: >2001 Firebird.  Page 1-26: >Your vehicle is equipped with a crash sensing and diagnostic module, >which records information about the air bag system.  The module records >information about the readiness of the system, when the system commands >air bag inflation and driver’s safety belt usage at deployment.  The >module also records speed, engine rpm, brake and throttle data. >No mention of "and if you crash, the cops and your insurance company >will seize it to try and determine the cause of the accident." >I have a clean record, I’m just uncomfortable with having an electronic >nanny onboard recording everything incase I might crash.  How long until >  it’s standard for your insurance company and cops to seize them from >every accident? >Ray

That isn’t the concern as much as the accurate of the data being stored and used for a conviction.  The average speedometer is 3-5% off but there are wide variations among that.  "Theoretically" if one wheel was spinning on ice and the other on pavement a 30 MPH accident could be recorded as 70MPH, or a skidding locked up an 80 MPH accident could be recorded as 0 MPH for the person spinning into your car. Or if perhaps you’ve got a defective speed sensor (not that GM ever has defective parts installed) incorrect data could be entered into the computer.  I know that I don’t know what my ABS data is as it’s travelling down the road.  Perhaps I’m not as trusting of the government as most,  just trying to figure out what new cars would be a secure purchase for me. Thanks for the info guys

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, I own a car with an SDM and was slightly annoyed to find out > after I bought the car that it came with one.  Nowhere in the owner’s > manual does it warn you that your car may contain information that > could be considered evidence against you. > It’s no big deal, but GM didn’t tell anyone this.   > I don’t know what manual you have, but they made it crystal clear in mine. > On page 7-9 of my Chevy Cavalier’s owner manual:

2001 Firebird.  Page 1-26: Your vehicle is equipped with a crash sensing and diagnostic module, which records information about the air bag system.  The module records information about the readiness of the system, when the system commands air bag inflation and driver’s safety belt usage at deployment.  The module also records speed, engine rpm, brake and throttle data. No mention of "and if you crash, the cops and your insurance company will seize it to try and determine the cause of the accident." I have a clean record, I’m just uncomfortable with having an electronic nanny onboard recording everything incase I might crash.  How long until   it’s standard for your insurance company and cops to seize them from every accident? Ray

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><snip> >And before you say it, the courts so far do NOT feel that there is a >reasonable expectation of privacy in your car.  If that were the case, >this guy would’ve been doing something that was perfectly legal: >http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-8-2004_pg9_15 ><snip>

Hmm I think the issue there was that what was being broadcast extended beyond the vehicle’s interior (if this is the one I heard on the radio the police felt that gay porn wasn’t up to community standards).  I know that certain jurisdictions to have vehicle privacy legislation. (to prevent peeping toms into motor homes etc).

Response:

> No, self incrimination is when they force you personally to give up the > truth.  Seeing as GM has not perfected psychic neural implants yet, we > have a while yet to worry about that.

Ahh, but you see, it’s your car, so everything in it is yours also. You see, self incrimination doesn’t involve making you give up anything. You show them or tell them what your involvement is. In this case it’d be your car showing involvement. Main Entry: in

Who else than BMI Baby joking

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> United sucks, big time.  Anyone have good experiences with any other airlines? >Gulf Air have a stewardess dedicated to children (entertaining, feeding, >helping with, etc.) on at least 1 of their major routes. >Hilary > Singapore Airlines always seem very friendly too! > –==++AJC++==–

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> We tend to stick with BA on transatlantic and Air Canada on North > America flights. Air Canada has fold down diaper changing shelves in > most lavs including biz class. BA is great with kids content with > individual TVs in World Traveler and good kids meals and amenities. I > avoid US carriers on transatlantic with my kids as I feel they see > kids and babies as a nuisance rather than a customer. We have not had > good experiences on AA and DL with our kids in tow. Continental would > probably be my top pick for US carriers.

Thanks for the tips.  We are trying Continental soon, so I will report back on how we do. > From reading the other posts, I fully feel it is the parents and not > the airline’s responsibily to bring along the necessary supplies to > entertain and tend to their babies. About a month ago a father > traveling solo across the aisle from me ran out of diapers mid way > though a 6+ hour flight for his son. He was irritated that the airline > didn’t provide free diapers.

That’s *totally* ridiculous.  Sounds like he just didn’t know what he was getting himself into. > It was a long flight (and smelly) with a > screaming toddler with a full diaper for 3 hours. He was the only > parent on board with a baby so no one could give him a diaper. > Alan

Poor baby! -L.

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We tend to stick with BA on transatlantic and Air Canada on North America flights. Air Canada has fold down diaper changing shelves in most lavs including biz class. BA is great with kids content with individual TVs in World Traveler and good kids meals and amenities. I avoid US carriers on transatlantic with my kids as I feel they see kids and babies as a nuisance rather than a customer. We have not had good experiences on AA and DL with our kids in tow. Continental would probably be my top pick for US carriers. From reading the other posts, I fully feel it is the parents and not the airline’s responsibily to bring along the necessary supplies to entertain and tend to their babies. About a month ago a father traveling solo across the aisle from me ran out of diapers mid way though a 6+ hour flight for his son. He was irritated that the airline didn’t provide free diapers. It was a long flight (and smelly) with a screaming toddler with a full diaper for 3 hours. He was the only parent on board with a baby so no one could give him a diaper. Alan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Several Ouiji boards must have been used to work out "what you sought" from > your insightful thoughts, and demanding question (are you learning from your > child?). > Just like the parents who walk down the middle of the sidewalk with their > prams, you seem to expect someone else to work out your problems for you. > When you pay full fare for your child, expect full service (already more > than a standard passenger). Until then, stop whining, an realise that your > decision to have kids is YOURS! Try not to burden others if your coping > skills aren’t up to other people’s. > And before another whine,,, I have had my kids from 0-12 on so many flights > it would make your head spin (judging by your experience)… > > >> United sucks, big time.  Anyone have good experiences with any other >  airlines? > > >Gulf Air have a stewardess dedicated to children (entertaining, >  feeding, > > >helping with, etc.) on at least 1 of their major routes. > > >Hilary > > Singapore Airlines always seem very friendly too! > > –==++AJC++==– > Thanks, Hilary and AJC, and everyone else who gave the input I sought. > -L.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Some people hate kids, period.  I recognize this try to not inflict my > son on anyone.  I realize that no one thinks he is a cute as I do, and > I don’t expect anyone to do anything for me just because I have a > baby.  I certainly don’t want him touching the plane or other > passengers, anyway, because mainly I don’t want him to get sick.  We > have flown five separate times with him – he is now 7 months old – > have controlled the crying as best as we can.  Really only had one > incident that lasted about 5 minutes on a United plane when we were > stuck on the freaking tarmac for 45 minutes in Chicago waiting to take > off – of course that is when he pooped for the day and I couldn’t get > up to change his pants because we had to stay seated.  He cried for > about 5 minutes and then fell asleep.  I apologized to everyone around > us and explained what was wrong – everybody was extremely cool about > it.  One of the reasons I hate United is because of schedule problems > like this, which result in delays, plane changes, and flight changes, > all of which add travel time and stress, which I try to keep to a > minimum anyway. > Do you consider the 45 minute wait for take off to be the fault of UA? > Why was the plane waiting 45 minutes? Was there a mechanical problem or > crew problem causing them to wait, or was it traffic oontrol related?

Traffic control related, possibly, but United had over 19 planes waiting to take off (we were #19 in line) and there were scheduling issues that caused problems prior to take-off.  United has had chronic problems in ORD and other areas for the last couple of years.  I used to like to fly them. > I have had lenghthy waits for take off on many carriers and often during > heavy traffic times, the wait is built into the schedule. Were you 45 > minutes late on arrival?

No, we were on-time.  People were on the plane early, in fact. -L.

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> You sound like you are one of the more considerate parents when you travel with your > little one on a plane.  I truly sympathize with your frustration and you must >sympathize > with mine also.

Oh, I do. > While I understand your points and concerns it does not change my > feelings.  I spend many hours on airplanes in the course of any week and the last thing I > am in the mood to deal with are the previously mentioned baby situations.  I am not a baby > hater as it has been put

I was not specifically targeting you with that comment.  Some people *do* hate babies though – that’s ok.  I don’t have any problem with that. >—-BUT, I reserve the right to NOT want them anywhere near me > when I am on an airplane and can’t not extricate myself from the situation. > When one is a 100,000 mile flyer and deals with airlines and airports the way they are > these days, the straw that breaks the camels back is to find when you finally sit down > that you are in close proximity to a situation that will most likely make the next few > hours even more miserable than getting through the airport was in the first place. > djb

Agreed – I understand.  No need to explain.  I just hate it when all parents get tarred with the same ugly brush (again, not saying YOU did that – but it is often done).  Some of us are conscious of the fact that our children can be irritating and try to preven the situation before it happens. -L.

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> Several Ouiji boards must have been used to work out "what you sought" from > your insightful thoughts,

The question was straight forward.  I clarified in my second post.  It wasn’t exactly rocket science. > and demanding question (are you learning from your > child?). > Just like the parents who walk down the middle of the sidewalk with their > prams, you seem to expect someone else to work out your problems for you. > When you pay full fare for your child, expect full service (already more > than a standard passenger). Until then, stop whining, an realise that your > decision to have kids is YOURS! Try not to burden others if your coping > skills aren’t up to other people’s. > And before another whine,,, I have had my kids from 0-12 on so many flights > it would make your head spin (judging by your experience)…

It’s not my problem you have some axe to grind. -L.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Some people hate kids, period.  I recognize this try to not inflict my > son on anyone.  I realize that no one thinks he is a cute as I do, and > I don’t expect anyone to do anything for me just because I have a > baby.  I certainly don’t want him touching the plane or other > passengers, anyway, because mainly I don’t want him to get sick.  We > have flown five separate times with him – he is now 7 months old – > have controlled the crying as best as we can.  Really only had one > incident that lasted about 5 minutes on a United plane when we were > stuck on the freaking tarmac for 45 minutes in Chicago waiting to take > off – of course that is when he pooped for the day and I couldn’t get > up to change his pants because we had to stay seated.  He cried for > about 5 minutes and then fell asleep.  I apologized to everyone around > us and explained what was wrong – everybody was extremely cool about > it.  One of the reasons I hate United is because of schedule problems > like this, which result in delays, plane changes, and flight changes, > all of which add travel time and stress, which I try to keep to a > minimum anyway.

Do you consider the 45 minute wait for take off to be the fault of UA? Why was the plane waiting 45 minutes? Was there a mechanical problem or crew problem causing them to wait, or was it traffic oontrol related? I have had lenghthy waits for take off on many carriers and often during heavy traffic times, the wait is built into the schedule. Were you 45 minutes late on arrival?

Response:

Cisco pedophile/troll/netkook/asshole Michael Voight sockpuppeting as – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Some people hate kids, period.  I recognize this try to not inflict my > son on anyone.  I realize that no one thinks he is a cute as I do, and > I don’t expect anyone to do anything for me just because I have a > baby.  I certainly don’t want him touching the plane or other > passengers, anyway, because mainly I don’t want him to get sick.  We > have flown five separate times with him – he is now 7 months old – > have controlled the crying as best as we can.  Really only had one > incident that lasted about 5 minutes on a United plane when we were > stuck on the freaking tarmac for 45 minutes in Chicago waiting to take > off – of course that is when he pooped for the day and I couldn’t get > up to change his pants because we had to stay seated.  He cried for > about 5 minutes and then fell asleep.  I apologized to everyone around > us and explained what was wrong – everybody was extremely cool about > it.  One of the reasons I hate United is because of schedule problems > like this, which result in delays, plane changes, and flight changes, > all of which add travel time and stress, which I try to keep to a > minimum anyway. >Do you consider the 45 minute wait for take off to be the fault of UA? >Why was the plane waiting 45 minutes? Was there a mechanical problem or >crew problem causing them to wait, or was it traffic oontrol related? >I have had lenghthy waits for take off on many carriers and often during >heavy traffic times, the wait is built into the schedule. Were you 45 >minutes late on arrival?

What the fuck do you care, and why the fuck do you think anyone is going to answer so many impertinent questions coming from a pedophile who hangs out in teenage newsgroups on the internet hoping to lure unsuspecting minors? About rogue Cisco employee and netkook/troll/usenet flooder Michael Voight, alias "nothilaryduff", "Really Me", "mrtravel", "mrtravelkay", etc. Michael D. Voight 111 Bean Creek Rd, No. 118 Scotts Valley,  CA  95066-4148 (831) 438-2485 He is pedophile Gary Burnore’s partner in crime.  Gary Burnore is a convicted sex offender/child molester and the biggest kook in the history of the net. The idiot works for Cisco in their Scotts Valley, California Technical Assistance Center (TAC) and apparently they don’t keep him busy enough so he has to troll usenet newsgroups all day long from work. ***WARNING:  THIS IDIOT HAS BEEN CAUGHT FORGING PEOPLE’S IDENTITIES ON USENET AND CANCELLING THEIR POSTS.*** If you are one of his victims, or are simply fed up with his trolling/newsgroup See further below for more Cisco contact information. He often posts through sbcglobal and prodigy, so forward them to His main hangout is alt.visa.us.marriage-based, a sleazy newsgroup where foreigners wanting to immigrate to the US hook up with losers like Voight who are willing to marry them for money so they can get their green card.  Voight is a pro at this, handing out daily advice on how to be a sleazoid like him and sell green cards. When he isn’t giving out advice on how to commit federal crimes on alt.visa.us.marriage-based he is usually on rec.travel.air flooding that newsgroup with trolls and harassing posters and picking retarded fights with the regular posters there. He also tends to post a lot in the personals and penpals newsgroups as well as the support groups for fat people, lonely folks, and for depression.  Obviously after his Russian Internet brides get their green cards they flee, leaving him lonely and desperate for company.  Maybe that’s why he keeps a P.O. Box at the post office, so he can get his personals mail there: Voight, Michael P.O. Box 67016, Scotts Valley, CA 95067 (408) 461-8707 He also seems to frequent the teenage newsgroups.  Creepy….. The idiot is a two-time high school dropout and had to join the Marines because even the Army rejected him! He’s got a daughter in Orange County that one of his ex-wives had the intelligence to take away from him.  Lord only knows what could have happened to her if she had continued to live with the kook.  The other kids he has belong to his previous Russian sleazy brides, and since they come and go so do the kids.  It wouldn’t hurt to let Cisco know what kind of deviant sexual pervert they have working for them. Many people have wondered how Cisco ever hired such a psycho.  It cheapens their image and credibility in the corporate world after all.  Well, they didn’t hire him directly, he came as baggage when they acquired the company he used to work All intelligent members of the usenet community have killfiled him, so he takes great pains to get past their killfiles by rubbing his only two cerebral neurons Some of his other trolling aliases are Network Guy, some gender confusion and has been posting as women, such as JerseyGirl change (or worse, raping some teenage girls). It would be a good idea to call Cisco at 1-800-553-2447 and ask to speak with a supervisor and explain that you are EXTREMELY unhappy that this idiot spends his whole day at work playing on the internet on company time.  THEY WILL NOT LIKE THAT. Then write to corporate headquarters explaining what this idiot is doing and telling them HOW BAD IT IS FOR THEIR COMPANY IMAGE.  They will LOVE that you brought this to their attention: Cisco Systems, Inc. 170 West Tasman Dr. San Jose, CA 95134 USA Then also call them.  You should always follow up email or letters with phone calls.  Always ask for supervisors or managers.  Try to get as far up as possible. (408)526-4000 (800)553-NETS or (800)553-6387 Contact Investor Relations and tell them you are interested in investing in their company but won’t do so until they get rid of this asshole who is wasting company resources: Cisco Systems, Inc. Investor Relations Department 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, CA 95134-1706 Phone: (408) 526-8890 Fax: (408) 526-4545 Might as well contact customer service too, they LOVE to hear about this type of stuff: USA 1 800 553 6387 Then finally, send letters with copies of his nasty posts addressed personally to each one of the OFFICERS of the company using the headquarters address.  Believe me, they READ your complaints and are VERY INTERESTED in them, especially if it’s about one of their employees.  They will take a PERSONAL interest in rooting this ASSHOLE out of their company: John Morgridge, Chairman Phone: (408) 526-8229 Fax: (408) 526-4100 John Chambers, President, CEO Phone: (408) 526-8222 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Larry Carter, CFO, Sr. VP-Fin. and Admin., Sec., Director Phone: (408) 526-8211 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Richard Justice, Sr. VP, Worldwide Field Operations Phone: (408) 527-7371 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Brad Boston,Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer Phone: (408) 526-7008 Fax: (408) 526-8220 Susan Lori Bostrom Senior Vice President, Internet Business Solutions Group Phone: (408) 527-5648 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Howard S. Charney Senior Vice President, Office of the President Phone: (408) 526-8300 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Kate DCamp Senior Vice President, Human Resources Phone: (408) 527-9530 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Gail Morales Manager, Human Resources, Employment Phone: (408) 527-6654 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Peggy Lynch Employee Benefits Phone: (408) 526-8859 Fax: (408) 527-6080 Mario Mazzola Senior Vice President and Chief Development Officer Phone: (408) 526-5535 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Betsy Rafael Vice President and Corporate Controller Phone: (408) 525-0164 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Claudia Ceniceros Manager, Public Relations Phone: (408) 525-4700 Fax: (408) 526-4100 Write, call, and fax: Cisco Systems, Inc. 170 West Tasman Drive San Jose, California 95134-1706, USA Phone: (408) 526-4000 Fax: (408) 526-4100 (800)553-NETS = (800)553-6387 Have fun!

Response:

Several Ouiji boards must have been used to work out "what you sought" from your insightful thoughts, and demanding question (are you learning from your child?). Just like the parents who walk down the middle of the sidewalk with their prams, you seem to expect someone else to work out your problems for you. When you pay full fare for your child, expect full service (already more than a standard passenger). Until then, stop whining, an realise that your decision to have kids is YOURS! Try not to burden others if your coping skills aren’t up to other people’s. And before another whine,,, I have had my kids from 0-12 on so many flights it would make your head spin (judging by your experience)…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> United sucks, big time.  Anyone have good experiences with any other airlines? > >Gulf Air have a stewardess dedicated to children (entertaining, feeding, > >helping with, etc.) on at least 1 of their major routes. > >Hilary > Singapore Airlines always seem very friendly too! > –==++AJC++==– > Thanks, Hilary and AJC, and everyone else who gave the input I sought. > -L.

Response:

You sound like you are one of the more considerate parents when you travel with your little one on a plane.  I truly sympathize with your frustration and you must sympathize with mine also.  While I understand your points and concerns it does not change my feelings.  I spend many hours on airplanes in the course of any week and the last thing I am in the mood to deal with are the previously mentioned baby situations.  I am not a baby hater as it has been put—-BUT, I reserve the right to NOT want them anywhere near me when I am on an airplane and can’t not extricate myself from the situation. When one is a 100,000 mile flyer and deals with airlines and airports the way they are these days, the straw that breaks the camels back is to find when you finally sit down that you are in close proximity to a situation that will most likely make the next few hours even more miserable than getting through the airport was in the first place. djb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It would surely be an enticement to me!  Nothing worse than little monsters > terrorizing the cabin on a long flight—drooling over the back of the seat in > front of you onto your dinner tray—and a parent who gets pissed when you say > something about it. > It’s a parenting issue.  I hate ill-behaved children as well.  And I > don’t want strangers – child or not – touching me. > Maybe the question should be "which airline has passengers who are most >tolerant of > screaming, running and drooling—and generally making every other passenger >on the > plane hate you." > Some people hate kids, period.  I recognize this try to not inflict my > son on anyone.  I realize that no one thinks he is a cute as I do, and > I don’t expect anyone to do anything for me just because I have a > baby.  I certainly don’t want him touching the plane or other > passengers, anyway, because mainly I don’t want him to get sick.  We > have flown five separate times with him – he is now 7 months old – > have controlled the crying as best as we can.  Really only had one > incident that lasted about 5 minutes on a United plane when we were > stuck on the freaking tarmac for 45 minutes in Chicago waiting to take > off – of course that is when he pooped for the day and I couldn’t get > up to change his pants because we had to stay seated.  He cried for > about 5 minutes and then fell asleep.  I apologized to everyone around > us and explained what was wrong – everybody was extremely cool about > it.  One of the reasons I hate United is because of schedule problems > like this, which result in delays, plane changes, and flight changes, > all of which add travel time and stress, which I try to keep to a > minimum anyway. > So, yes, I reconize that children can be a nuisance to other > passengers on a plane.  I try my best to make sure mine isn’t one of > them.  And when he is, I apologize so that the baby haters at least > know that I am trying to do the best I can to correct the situation, > and that I recognize that they are unhappy. > -L.

Response:

> It would surely be an enticement to me!  Nothing worse than little monsters > terrorizing the cabin on a long flight—drooling over the back of the seat in > front of you onto your dinner tray—and a parent who gets pissed when you say > something about it.

It’s a parenting issue.  I hate ill-behaved children as well.  And I don’t want strangers – child or not – touching me. > Maybe the question should be "which airline has passengers who are most >tolerant of > screaming, running and drooling—and generally making every other passenger >on the > plane hate you."

Some people hate kids, period.  I recognize this try to not inflict my son on anyone.  I realize that no one thinks he is a cute as I do, and I don’t expect anyone to do anything for me just because I have a baby.  I certainly don’t want him touching the plane or other passengers, anyway, because mainly I don’t want him to get sick.  We have flown five separate times with him – he is now 7 months old – have controlled the crying as best as we can.  Really only had one incident that lasted about 5 minutes on a United plane when we were stuck on the freaking tarmac for 45 minutes in Chicago waiting to take off – of course that is when he pooped for the day and I couldn’t get up to change his pants because we had to stay seated.  He cried for about 5 minutes and then fell asleep.  I apologized to everyone around us and explained what was wrong – everybody was extremely cool about it.  One of the reasons I hate United is because of schedule problems like this, which result in delays, plane changes, and flight changes, all of which add travel time and stress, which I try to keep to a minimum anyway. So, yes, I reconize that children can be a nuisance to other passengers on a plane.  I try my best to make sure mine isn’t one of them.  And when he is, I apologize so that the baby haters at least know that I am trying to do the best I can to correct the situation, and that I recognize that they are unhappy. -L.

Response:

> >> United sucks, big time.  Anyone have good experiences with any other airlines? >Gulf Air have a stewardess dedicated to children (entertaining, feeding, >helping with, etc.) on at least 1 of their major routes. >Hilary > Singapore Airlines always seem very friendly too! > –==++AJC++==–

Thanks, Hilary and AJC, and everyone else who gave the input I sought. -L.

Response:

> I’m curious about how you define non-baby friendly and why United > "sucks."

United sucks because they continually split up parties and change flights with no notice (probably all due to overbooking).  They have few planes that will fit a standard-sized baby seat (at least on the last 5 flights we have taken) and their service personell has been extremely rude (with one exception).  They also have few planes that have changing tables in the bathrooms and there is basically no other place you can change a baby’s pants.  Last time I did it in the stall, but DS’s head hung over the toilet seat, which was not pleasant for either of us. >  Do "baby friendly" airlines provide sound proof containers for the > little darling when it goes on an extended scream?   Do they provide > complimentary leashes to control the running toddlers who have escaped > from their comotose parents?  

That’s a parenting issue, and not an airline issue. > Maybe super-strength paper towels to > clean up the spilled cokes?   How about an etiquette book so parents > can learn about how to control their kids while in public places?

You don’t have to be an asshole.  Not all parents are bad parents. It is a legitimate question.  There are probably airlines that exist that acknowlege that people may have to change a diaper and/or have seats big enough to take a baby seat. -L.

Response:

Well said, I like United, and choose them whenever possible in the US. Saying "united sucks" is quite a narrow view on things, in general. The airlines that pander to parents by giving them the "fully enclosed capsule" treatment would just need to deal with one of their other neuroses, if they didn’t have kids. I say 1 seat, 1 standard, 1 price – and let the others work out how to mollycoddle each other through life. I’ve had 2 kids on several intercontinental flights, and never expected any concessions for them, apart from colouring books… They always got on fine.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m curious about how you define non-baby friendly and why United > "sucks." >  Do "baby friendly" airlines provide sound proof containers for the > little darling when it goes on an extended scream?   Do they provide > complimentary leashes to control the running toddlers who have escaped > from their comotose parents?   Maybe super-strength paper towels to > clean up the spilled cokes?   How about an etiquette book so parents > can learn about how to control their kids while in public places? > Since United is non-baby friendly,  maybe that’s why I frequently fly > them! >United sucks, big time.  Anyone have good experiences with any other airlines? >-L.

Response:

It would surely be an enticement to me!  Nothing worse than little monsters terrorizing the cabin on a long flight—drooling over the back of the seat in front of you onto your dinner tray—and a parent who gets pissed when you say something about it. Maybe the question should be "which airline has passengers who are most tolerant of screaming, running and drooling—and generally making every other passenger on the plane hate you." djb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’m curious about how you define non-baby friendly and why United > "sucks." >  Do "baby friendly" airlines provide sound proof containers for the > little darling when it goes on an extended scream?   Do they provide > complimentary leashes to control the running toddlers who have escaped > from their comotose parents?   Maybe super-strength paper towels to > clean up the spilled cokes?   How about an etiquette book so parents > can learn about how to control their kids while in public places? > Since United is non-baby friendly,  maybe that’s why I frequently fly > them! >United sucks, big time.  Anyone have good experiences with any other airlines? >-L.

Response:

United sucks, big time.  Anyone have good experiences with any other airlines? -L.

Response:

>United sucks, big time.  Anyone have good experiences with any other airlines? >-L.

Use Qantas or Emirates next time. –==++AJC++==–

Response:

> United sucks, big time.  Anyone have good experiences with any other airlines?

Saudi Arabian Airlines, ‘Saudia’. They are the National Airline of screaming babies.

Response:

>> United sucks, big time.  Anyone have good experiences with any other > airlines? > -L. > Use Qantas or Emirates next time. > –==++AJC++==–

Virgin have a reputation for being child friendly- don’t know if this extends to babies though Jan

Response:

I’m curious about how you define non-baby friendly and why United "sucks."  Do "baby friendly" airlines provide sound proof containers for the little darling when it goes on an extended scream?   Do they provide complimentary leashes to control the running toddlers who have escaped from their comotose parents?   Maybe super-strength paper towels to clean up the spilled cokes?   How about an etiquette book so parents can learn about how to control their kids while in public places? Since United is non-baby friendly,  maybe that’s why I frequently fly them! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->United sucks, big time.  Anyone have good experiences with any other airlines? >-L.

Response:

> > United sucks, big time.  Anyone have good experiences with any other airlines? > Saudi Arabian Airlines, ‘Saudia’. They are the National Airline of > screaming babies.

I’m looking more for info about domestic (US) airlines that have changing tables on most of their planes, and larger seats that accomodate safety seats.  And before you rag on me about having a "lap baby", we buy him a seat. -L.

Response:

>> United sucks, big time.  Anyone have good experiences with any other airlines? >Gulf Air have a stewardess dedicated to children (entertaining, feeding, >helping with, etc.) on at least 1 of their major routes. >Hilary

Singapore Airlines always seem very friendly too! –==++AJC++==–

Response:

Guess what, if you hadn’t been born – I wouldn’t miss you. Same thing with the extra (world population – 1 billion) that shouldn’t be here. ~KJ/TLGM

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Okay, there is no such thing as furthering the species. People are quite >simply – everywhere. >Drugs & child delinquents have nothing to do with overpopulation. They have >actually found out what causes people to get pregnant (and it doesn’t >involve drugs or vandalism). >~KJ/TLGM >> I find that comment kind of sad.  If you dont want chlldren then thats >fine >> with me, but for those whe wish to further the species with meaning full >> results I see no  problem with that.  Im only 24 but have already got past >> or never did most of the stupid crap most of my generation find so >> appealing.  I find my generation very sad, to many people making it harder >> for others to have a life without privacy violations.  10 years ago drug >> test were not very common but due to the generation that I am apart of now >> you damb near need to take ne just to buy gas.   And thats BS.  If growing >> up cramps your style I feel sad for ya.  Its got lots more possibilities >> than staying young and stupid. >> Just my .02  Mat >> > Too many people *efing up my world for everyone to have so many kids…. >I >> > think 1 is more then enough. >> > ~KJ/TLGM >message >> > > They say true wealth: >> > > is to have children! >> > > I have found, true wealth is drained by children but, I wouldn’t have >it >> > any >> > > other way. When my kids call me daddy, it makes me feel like superman! >> > > Refinish King >> > > > Never had a kid (thank goodness) so I wouldn’t know. >> > > > ~KJ/TLGM >> > > > > >:|The seat back is supposed to be towards the front of the >vehicle. >> > At >> > > > least >> > > > > >:|that’s what they say. You should be able to find one that faces >> > > > ‘backwards’ >> > > > > >:| >> > > > > >:|~KJ/TLGM >> > > > > >:| >> > > > > you only put the seat backwards if the child is under one.  I’m >> about >> > > > > to have to move my almost 3 year old to a new seat as she’s >getting >> > > > > too tall for the one she has now.  4 more lbs and she can go into >a >> > > > > booster type seat (she only weighs 36 lbs). >> > > > > -Bret >> > > > > >:|> I just bought a new ‘04 Silverado and moved the lil’ ones >seat >> > > (he’s >> > > > > >:|> two and about 30lbs.) from the car to the extended cab and >the >> > top >> > > > > >:|> rubs against the glass making all sorts of squeaky noises >(not >> to >> > > > > >:|> mention, I’m worried about the tint). >> > > > > >:|> >> > > > > >:|> Just curious if anyone had recommendation on a good child >seat >> (2 >> > > > year >> > > > > >:|> old+) that doesn’t rub on the extended cab glass in the back? >> > > > > >:|> >> > > > > >:|> TIA! >> > > > > >:| > There might be people everywhere, but they don’t have the advantage of > the genetics of my wife and I nor do they have the advantage of my > superior parenting skills.  Therefore the world is a better place for > me having had children.  And all the however many billions of people > there are in the world, think exactly the same thing so that is why we > keep doing this.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Okay, there is no such thing as furthering the species. People are quite >simply – everywhere. >Drugs & child delinquents have nothing to do with overpopulation. They have >actually found out what causes people to get pregnant (and it doesn’t >involve drugs or vandalism). >~KJ/TLGM > I find that comment kind of sad.  If you dont want chlldren then thats >fine > with me, but for those whe wish to further the species with meaning full > results I see no  problem with that.  Im only 24 but have already got past > or never did most of the stupid crap most of my generation find so > appealing.  I find my generation very sad, to many people making it harder > for others to have a life without privacy violations.  10 years ago drug > test were not very common but due to the generation that I am apart of now > you damb near need to take ne just to buy gas.   And thats BS.  If growing > up cramps your style I feel sad for ya.  Its got lots more possibilities > than staying young and stupid. > Just my .02  Mat > > Too many people *efing up my world for everyone to have so many kids…. >I > > think 1 is more then enough. > > ~KJ/TLGM >message > > > They say true wealth: > > > is to have children! > > > I have found, true wealth is drained by children but, I wouldn’t have >it > > any > > > other way. When my kids call me daddy, it makes me feel like superman! > > > Refinish King > > > > Never had a kid (thank goodness) so I wouldn’t know. > > > > ~KJ/TLGM > > > > > >:|The seat back is supposed to be towards the front of the >vehicle. > > At > > > > least > > > > > >:|that’s what they say. You should be able to find one that faces > > > > ‘backwards’ > > > > > >:| > > > > > >:|~KJ/TLGM > > > > > >:| > > > > > you only put the seat backwards if the child is under one.  I’m > about > > > > > to have to move my almost 3 year old to a new seat as she’s >getting > > > > > too tall for the one she has now.  4 more lbs and she can go into >a > > > > > booster type seat (she only weighs 36 lbs). > > > > > -Bret > > > > > >:|> I just bought a new ‘04 Silverado and moved the lil’ ones >seat > > > (he’s > > > > > >:|> two and about 30lbs.) from the car to the extended cab and >the > > top > > > > > >:|> rubs against the glass making all sorts of squeaky noises >(not > to > > > > > >:|> mention, I’m worried about the tint). > > > > > >:|> > > > > > >:|> Just curious if anyone had recommendation on a good child >seat > (2 > > > > year > > > > > >:|> old+) that doesn’t rub on the extended cab glass in the back? > > > > > >:|> > > > > > >:|> TIA! > > > > > >:|

There might be people everywhere, but they don’t have the advantage of the genetics of my wife and I nor do they have the advantage of my superior parenting skills.  Therefore the world is a better place for me having had children.  And all the however many billions of people there are in the world, think exactly the same thing so that is why we keep doing this.

Response:

Okay, there is no such thing as furthering the species. People are quite simply – everywhere. Drugs & child delinquents have nothing to do with overpopulation. They have actually found out what causes people to get pregnant (and it doesn’t involve drugs or vandalism). ~KJ/TLGM

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I find that comment kind of sad.  If you dont want chlldren then thats fine > with me, but for those whe wish to further the species with meaning full > results I see no  problem with that.  Im only 24 but have already got past > or never did most of the stupid crap most of my generation find so > appealing.  I find my generation very sad, to many people making it harder > for others to have a life without privacy violations.  10 years ago drug > test were not very common but due to the generation that I am apart of now > you damb near need to take ne just to buy gas.   And thats BS.  If growing > up cramps your style I feel sad for ya.  Its got lots more possibilities > than staying young and stupid. > Just my .02  Mat > Too many people *efing up my world for everyone to have so many kids…. I > think 1 is more then enough. > ~KJ/TLGM message > > They say true wealth: > > is to have children! > > I have found, true wealth is drained by children but, I wouldn’t have it > any > > other way. When my kids call me daddy, it makes me feel like superman! > > Refinish King > > > Never had a kid (thank goodness) so I wouldn’t know. > > > ~KJ/TLGM > > > > >:|The seat back is supposed to be towards the front of the vehicle. > At > > > least > > > > >:|that’s what they say. You should be able to find one that faces > > > ‘backwards’ > > > > >:| > > > > >:|~KJ/TLGM > > > > >:| > > > > you only put the seat backwards if the child is under one.  I’m > about > > > > to have to move my almost 3 year old to a new seat as she’s getting > > > > too tall for the one she has now.  4 more lbs and she can go into a > > > > booster type seat (she only weighs 36 lbs). > > > > -Bret > > > > >:|> I just bought a new ‘04 Silverado and moved the lil’ ones seat > > (he’s > > > > >:|> two and about 30lbs.) from the car to the extended cab and the > top > > > > >:|> rubs against the glass making all sorts of squeaky noises (not > to > > > > >:|> mention, I’m worried about the tint). > > > > >:|> > > > > >:|> Just curious if anyone had recommendation on a good child seat > (2 > > > year > > > > >:|> old+) that doesn’t rub on the extended cab glass in the back? > > > > >:|> > > > > >:|> TIA! > > > > >:|

Response:

Unfortunately the LATCH system is in located in the middle of the bech seat in the back, which has no headrest. I wish I was in a bigger city, upin Seattle they would let you take the car seats out to your vehicle to test them for fitting. Now I’m in the middle of a corn-field and people look at me like I’m crazy when I ask things like that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > They say to have the child face the rear till they weigh 20 pounds. > The longer the better though.  You won’t find a rear facer that a 30 > lb child will fit in.  The cheap $30 model at walmart fits in my dads > extended cab and it only touches the headrest.  Can you adjust the > height of the headrest to accomodate your child seat?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Unfortunately the LATCH system is in located in the middle of the bech >seat in the back, which has no headrest. >I wish I was in a bigger city, upin Seattle they would let you take >the car seats out to your vehicle to test them for fitting. >Now I’m in the middle of a corn-field and people look at me like I’m >crazy when I ask things like that. > They say to have the child face the rear till they weigh 20 pounds. > The longer the better though.  You won’t find a rear facer that a 30 > lb child will fit in.  The cheap $30 model at walmart fits in my dads > extended cab and it only touches the headrest.  Can you adjust the > height of the headrest to accomodate your child seat?

Is your child small enough to need to use the Latch system?  It isn’t used when you use a booster and the vehicle seat belts.  I used the 5 point harness for my boys till they didn’t fit in them anymore.  The vehicle seat belt holds my 4 year old fine when I lock the belt in place so he can’t get out of position.

Response:

I find that comment kind of sad.  If you dont want chlldren then thats fine with me, but for those whe wish to further the species with meaning full results I see no  problem with that.  Im only 24 but have already got past or never did most of the stupid crap most of my generation find so appealing.  I find my generation very sad, to many people making it harder for others to have a life without privacy violations.  10 years ago drug test were not very common but due to the generation that I am apart of now you damb near need to take ne just to buy gas.   And thats BS.  If growing up cramps your style I feel sad for ya.  Its got lots more possibilities than staying young and stupid. Just my .02  Mat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Too many people *efing up my world for everyone to have so many kids…. I > think 1 is more then enough. > ~KJ/TLGM > They say true wealth: > is to have children! > I have found, true wealth is drained by children but, I wouldn’t have it > any > other way. When my kids call me daddy, it makes me feel like superman! > Refinish King > > Never had a kid (thank goodness) so I wouldn’t know. > > ~KJ/TLGM > > > >:|The seat back is supposed to be towards the front of the vehicle. > At > > least > > > >:|that’s what they say. You should be able to find one that faces > > ‘backwards’ > > > >:| > > > >:|~KJ/TLGM > > > >:| > > > you only put the seat backwards if the child is under one.  I’m about > > > to have to move my almost 3 year old to a new seat as she’s getting > > > too tall for the one she has now.  4 more lbs and she can go into a > > > booster type seat (she only weighs 36 lbs). > > > -Bret > > > >:|> I just bought a new ‘04 Silverado and moved the lil’ ones seat > (he’s > > > >:|> two and about 30lbs.) from the car to the extended cab and the > top > > > >:|> rubs against the glass making all sorts of squeaky noises (not to > > > >:|> mention, I’m worried about the tint). > > > >:|> > > > >:|> Just curious if anyone had recommendation on a good child seat (2 > > year > > > >:|> old+) that doesn’t rub on the extended cab glass in the back? > > > >:|> > > > >:|> TIA! > > > >:|

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Too many people *efing up my world for everyone to have so many kids…. I think 1 is more then enough. ~KJ/TLGM

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> They say true wealth: > is to have children! > I have found, true wealth is drained by children but, I wouldn’t have it any > other way. When my kids call me daddy, it makes me feel like superman! > Refinish King > Never had a kid (thank goodness) so I wouldn’t know. > ~KJ/TLGM > > >:|The seat back is supposed to be towards the front of the vehicle. At > least > > >:|that’s what they say. You should be able to find one that faces > ‘backwards’ > > >:| > > >:|~KJ/TLGM > > >:| > > you only put the seat backwards if the child is under one.  I’m about > > to have to move my almost 3 year old to a new seat as she’s getting > > too tall for the one she has now.  4 more lbs and she can go into a > > booster type seat (she only weighs 36 lbs). > > -Bret > > >:|> I just bought a new ‘04 Silverado and moved the lil’ ones seat > (he’s > > >:|> two and about 30lbs.) from the car to the extended cab and the top > > >:|> rubs against the glass making all sorts of squeaky noises (not to > > >:|> mention, I’m worried about the tint). > > >:|> > > >:|> Just curious if anyone had recommendation on a good child seat (2 > year > > >:|> old+) that doesn’t rub on the extended cab glass in the back? > > >:|> > > >:|> TIA! > > >:|

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I fully agree, i may not have the capital to trick out my truck, but I love my family and wouldnt trade it for all the money in the world.  I found happiness when I had my kids and married my wife.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> They say true wealth: > is to have children! > I have found, true wealth is drained by children but, I wouldn’t have it any > other way. When my kids call me daddy, it makes me feel like superman! > Refinish King > Never had a kid (thank goodness) so I wouldn’t know. > ~KJ/TLGM > > >:|The seat back is supposed to be towards the front of the vehicle. At > least > > >:|that’s what they say. You should be able to find one that faces > ‘backwards’ > > >:| > > >:|~KJ/TLGM > > >:| > > you only put the seat backwards if the child is under one.  I’m about > > to have to move my almost 3 year old to a new seat as she’s getting > > too tall for the one she has now.  4 more lbs and she can go into a > > booster type seat (she only weighs 36 lbs). > > -Bret > > >:|> I just bought a new ‘04 Silverado and moved the lil’ ones seat > (he’s > > >:|> two and about 30lbs.) from the car to the extended cab and the top > > >:|> rubs against the glass making all sorts of squeaky noises (not to > > >:|> mention, I’m worried about the tint). > > >:|> > > >:|> Just curious if anyone had recommendation on a good child seat (2 > year > > >:|> old+) that doesn’t rub on the extended cab glass in the back? > > >:|> > > >:|> TIA! > > >:|

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They say true wealth: is to have children! I have found, true wealth is drained by children but, I wouldn’t have it any other way. When my kids call me daddy, it makes me feel like superman! Refinish King

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Never had a kid (thank goodness) so I wouldn’t know. > ~KJ/TLGM > >:|The seat back is supposed to be towards the front of the vehicle. At > least > >:|that’s what they say. You should be able to find one that faces > ‘backwards’ > >:| > >:|~KJ/TLGM > >:| > you only put the seat backwards if the child is under one.  I’m about > to have to move my almost 3 year old to a new seat as she’s getting > too tall for the one she has now.  4 more lbs and she can go into a > booster type seat (she only weighs 36 lbs). > -Bret > >:|> I just bought a new ‘04 Silverado and moved the lil’ ones seat (he’s > >:|> two and about 30lbs.) from the car to the extended cab and the top > >:|> rubs against the glass making all sorts of squeaky noises (not to > >:|> mention, I’m worried about the tint). > >:|> > >:|> Just curious if anyone had recommendation on a good child seat (2 > year > >:|> old+) that doesn’t rub on the extended cab glass in the back? > >:|> > >:|> TIA! > >:|

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >The seat back is supposed to be towards the front of the vehicle. At least >that’s what they say. You should be able to find one that faces ‘backwards’ >~KJ/TLGM > I just bought a new ‘04 Silverado and moved the lil’ ones seat (he’s > two and about 30lbs.) from the car to the extended cab and the top > rubs against the glass making all sorts of squeaky noises (not to > mention, I’m worried about the tint). > Just curious if anyone had recommendation on a good child seat (2 year > old+) that doesn’t rub on the extended cab glass in the back? > TIA!

They say to have the child face the rear till they weigh 20 pounds. The longer the better though.  You won’t find a rear facer that a 30 lb child will fit in.  The cheap $30 model at walmart fits in my dads extended cab and it only touches the headrest.  Can you adjust the height of the headrest to accomodate your child seat?

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Never had a kid (thank goodness) so I wouldn’t know. ~KJ/TLGM

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->:|The seat back is supposed to be towards the front of the vehicle. At least >:|that’s what they say. You should be able to find one that faces ‘backwards’ >:| >:|~KJ/TLGM >:| > you only put the seat backwards if the child is under one.  I’m about > to have to move my almost 3 year old to a new seat as she’s getting > too tall for the one she has now.  4 more lbs and she can go into a > booster type seat (she only weighs 36 lbs). > -Bret >:|> I just bought a new ‘04 Silverado and moved the lil’ ones seat (he’s >:|> two and about 30lbs.) from the car to the extended cab and the top >:|> rubs against the glass making all sorts of squeaky noises (not to >:|> mention, I’m worried about the tint). >:|> >:|> Just curious if anyone had recommendation on a good child seat (2 year >:|> old+) that doesn’t rub on the extended cab glass in the back? >:|> >:|> TIA! >:|

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I just bought a new ‘04 Silverado and moved the lil’ ones seat (he’s two and about 30lbs.) from the car to the extended cab and the top rubs against the glass making all sorts of squeaky noises (not to mention, I’m worried about the tint). Just curious if anyone had recommendation on a good child seat (2 year old+) that doesn’t rub on the extended cab glass in the back? TIA!

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The seat back is supposed to be towards the front of the vehicle. At least that’s what they say. You should be able to find one that faces ‘backwards’ ~KJ/TLGM

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just bought a new ‘04 Silverado and moved the lil’ ones seat (he’s > two and about 30lbs.) from the car to the extended cab and the top > rubs against the glass making all sorts of squeaky noises (not to > mention, I’m worried about the tint). > Just curious if anyone had recommendation on a good child seat (2 year > old+) that doesn’t rub on the extended cab glass in the back? > TIA!

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>:|The seat back is supposed to be towards the front of the vehicle. At least >:|that’s what they say. You should be able to find one that faces ‘backwards’ >:| >:|~KJ/TLGM >:|

you only put the seat backwards if the child is under one.  I’m about to have to move my almost 3 year old to a new seat as she’s getting too tall for the one she has now.  4 more lbs and she can go into a booster type seat (she only weighs 36 lbs). -Bret – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >:|> I just bought a new ‘04 Silverado and moved the lil’ ones seat (he’s >:|> two and about 30lbs.) from the car to the extended cab and the top >:|> rubs against the glass making all sorts of squeaky noises (not to >:|> mention, I’m worried about the tint). >:|> >:|> Just curious if anyone had recommendation on a good child seat (2 year >:|> old+) that doesn’t rub on the extended cab glass in the back? >:|> >:|> TIA! >:|

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        An International Committee of the Red Cross report which was leaked today said some coalition intelligence officers estimated that 70-90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake.  The report also directly contradicted Bush administration assertions that abusive treatment of Iraqi detainees was the work of an isolated few, stating that such abuse was in fact widespread and systematic.  The report cites abuses – some "tantamount to torture" – including brutality, hooding, humiliation and threats of "imminent execution."         US soldiers "entered houses usually after dark, breaking down doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members into one room under military guard while searching the rest of the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property," the report said.         "Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people," it said. "Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles." This is the sort of behavior which the founding fathers of American correctly identified as "tyranny."  It was wrong when King George III’s henchmen did it in the 18th century and it is wrong when we do it in the 21st century.         The report also stated that prisoners were stripped naked and kept in completely dark concrete cells.  At other times they would be forced to parade around in women’s underwear.         Pierre Kraehenbuehl, ICRC director of operations, said Friday the report had been given to U.S. officials in February, but it only summarized what the agency had been telling U.S. officials in detail between March and November 2003 "either in direct face-to-face conversations or in written interventions."  So the U.S. government cannot feign surprise at these findings.  The ICRC has been keeping them informed since the war began in March of last year.         Kraehenbuehl said the abuse of prisoners represented more than isolated acts, and that the problems were not limited to Abu Ghraib.  "We were dealing here with a broad pattern, not individual acts. There was a pattern and a system," Kraehenbuehl was quoted as saying.  The report "suggested the use of ill-treatment against persons deprived of their liberty went beyond exceptional cases and might be considered a practice tolerated by" coalition forces.         These outrageous human rights abuses by the USA need to stop now.   As long as they continue, every American woman and man, myself included, shares the shame and disgrace of our government’s lawless, rogue behavior.   I urge every American of conscience to write to their elected representatives and local newspapers today, and on a regular basis, demanding an end to arbitrary detention and abuse in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, and elsewhere. Source: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040510/ap_on_re_eu/red_… Chris, USA

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>    US soldiers "entered houses usually after dark, breaking down >doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members >into one room under military guard while searching the rest of the house >and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property," the report said.

Sounds like your average American police raid.

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>>     US soldiers "entered houses usually after dark, breaking down >doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family >members into one room under military guard while searching the rest of >the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property," >the report said. > Sounds like your average American police raid.

And with men parading around in women’s panties, an average Friday night in San Francsico.

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Chris, If I knew this to be true, I would agree 100%. Time will soon tell. With what we do know already, I am sickened me to hear the things these soldiers did in my nation’s name. The Arab world will hate us no matter what we do or don’t do because of our backing for Israel (which I support), but sexual humiliation of prisoners is sickening and intolerable. I can only hope that heads roll up the chain of command. We need to use other methods of interrogation, which could include minimal food and water, constant bright lights in cells, constant clanging outside cell doors, high volume rap music, and other related activities meant to wear down prisoners, but to videotape rapes or pose people in sexually auggestive poses… nope, can’t agree to that. Greg, also of the USA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->      An International Committee of the Red Cross report which was > leaked today said some coalition intelligence officers estimated that > 70-90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake.  The report > also directly contradicted Bush administration assertions that abusive > treatment of Iraqi detainees was the work of an isolated few, stating > that such abuse was in fact widespread and systematic.  The report > cites abuses – some "tantamount to torture" – including brutality, > hooding, humiliation and threats of "imminent execution." >      US soldiers "entered houses usually after dark, breaking down > doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family > members into one room under military guard while searching the rest of > the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property," > the report said. >      "Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, > including elderly, handicapped or sick people," it said. "Treatment > often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with > rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles." This is the > sort of behavior which the founding fathers of American correctly > identified as "tyranny."  It was wrong when King George III’s henchmen > did it in the 18th century and it is wrong when we do it in the 21st > century. >      The report also stated that prisoners were stripped naked and >      kept > in completely dark concrete cells.  At other times they would be > forced to parade around in women’s underwear. >      Pierre Kraehenbuehl, ICRC director of operations, said Friday the > report had been given to U.S. officials in February, but it only > summarized what the agency had been telling U.S. officials in detail > between March and November 2003 "either in direct face-to-face > conversations or in written interventions."  So the U.S. government > cannot feign surprise at these findings.  The ICRC has been keeping > them informed since the war began in March of last year. >      Kraehenbuehl said the abuse of prisoners represented more than > isolated acts, and that the problems were not limited to Abu Ghraib. > "We were dealing here with a broad pattern, not individual acts. There > was a pattern and a system," Kraehenbuehl was quoted as saying.  The > report "suggested the use of ill-treatment against persons deprived of > their liberty went beyond exceptional cases and might be considered a > practice tolerated by" coalition forces. >      These outrageous human rights abuses by the USA need to stop now. > As long as they continue, every American woman and man, myself > included, shares the shame and disgrace of our government’s lawless, > rogue behavior.  I urge every American of conscience to write to their > elected representatives and local newspapers today, and on a regular > basis, demanding an end to arbitrary detention and abuse in Iraq, > Guantanamo Bay, and elsewhere. > Source: > http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040510/ap_on_re_eu/red_cr > oss_prisoner_abuse_5 > Chris, USA

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Please delete alt.support.attn-deficit when reply to Chris. Support groups do not appreciate being cluttered by messages from people who take perverse delight in how long a thread they create. thank you for your cooperation.

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Why the crossposting? Just say what you want to say. No problem there. But this crossposting is stupid. Don’t be stupid.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Chris, > If I knew this to be true, I would agree 100%. Time will soon tell. > With what we do know already, I am sickened me to hear the things these > soldiers did in my nation’s name. The Arab world will hate us no matter > what we do or don’t do because of our backing for Israel (which I > support), but sexual humiliation of prisoners is sickening and > intolerable. I can only hope that heads roll up the chain of command. > We need to use other methods of interrogation, which could include > minimal food and water, constant bright lights in cells, constant > clanging outside cell doors, high volume rap music, and other related > activities meant to wear down prisoners, but to videotape rapes or pose > people in sexually auggestive poses… nope, can’t agree to that. > Greg, also of the USA >      An International Committee of the Red Cross report which was > leaked today said some coalition intelligence officers estimated that > 70-90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake.  The report > also directly contradicted Bush administration assertions that abusive > treatment of Iraqi detainees was the work of an isolated few, stating > that such abuse was in fact widespread and systematic.  The report > cites abuses – some "tantamount to torture" – including brutality, > hooding, humiliation and threats of "imminent execution." >      US soldiers "entered houses usually after dark, breaking down > doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family > members into one room under military guard while searching the rest of > the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property," > the report said. >      "Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, > including elderly, handicapped or sick people," it said. "Treatment > often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with > rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles." This is the > sort of behavior which the founding fathers of American correctly > identified as "tyranny."  It was wrong when King George III’s henchmen > did it in the 18th century and it is wrong when we do it in the 21st > century. >      The report also stated that prisoners were stripped naked and >      kept > in completely dark concrete cells.  At other times they would be > forced to parade around in women’s underwear. >      Pierre Kraehenbuehl, ICRC director of operations, said Friday the > report had been given to U.S. officials in February, but it only > summarized what the agency had been telling U.S. officials in detail > between March and November 2003 "either in direct face-to-face > conversations or in written interventions."  So the U.S. government > cannot feign surprise at these findings.  The ICRC has been keeping > them informed since the war began in March of last year. >      Kraehenbuehl said the abuse of prisoners represented more than > isolated acts, and that the problems were not limited to Abu Ghraib. > "We were dealing here with a broad pattern, not individual acts. There > was a pattern and a system," Kraehenbuehl was quoted as saying.  The > report "suggested the use of ill-treatment against persons deprived of > their liberty went beyond exceptional cases and might be considered a > practice tolerated by" coalition forces. >      These outrageous human rights abuses by the USA need to stop now. > As long as they continue, every American woman and man, myself > included, shares the shame and disgrace of our government’s lawless, > rogue behavior.  I urge every American of conscience to write to their > elected representatives and local newspapers today, and on a regular > basis, demanding an end to arbitrary detention and abuse in Iraq, > Guantanamo Bay, and elsewhere. > Source: > http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040510/ap_on_re_eu/red_cr > oss_prisoner_abuse_5 > Chris, USA

    The problem with using even the coercive interrogation methods that you suggest (bright lights, constant noise) is that when you put prisoners in a situation that will be intolerable unless they confess to something, they’ll make up something to confess.     Some might argue that if we KNOW they have information that they aren’t sharing, then coercion is legitimate, but I’d venture to say that if we KNOW they have the information (i.e. we have proof of what they’re witholding) then we have the info we need, and the interrogation is unnecessary.  The Dirty Harry situation, in which a perpetrator CLEARLY has information that could save lives, that is otherwise unavailable, is rare in police situations, and I bet it’s rare in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo as well.

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Oh it depends on which "america". True. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->       US soldiers "entered houses usually after dark, breaking down >doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members >into one room under military guard while searching the rest of the house >and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property," the report said. > Sounds like your average American police raid.

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Could you possibly keep this rubbish out of these newsgroups where it is not appropriate?  I am sure you could find some sort of audience in a more appropriate venue than alt.support.attn-deficit and alt.guitar.amps. Perhaps you are afraid to post in those newsgroups where people actually know what they are talking about. But in any case, please do have the courtesy to find more appropriate newsgroups for your rants. Most sincerely, W.T. Hatch – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->    An International Committee of the Red Cross report which was >leaked today said some coalition intelligence officers estimated that >70-90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake.  The report >also directly contradicted Bush administration assertions that abusive >treatment of Iraqi detainees was the work of an isolated few, stating that >such abuse was in fact widespread and systematic.  The report cites abuses >- some "tantamount to torture" – including brutality, hooding, humiliation >and threats of "imminent execution."

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: Please delete alt.support.attn-deficit when reply to Chris. Support groups : do not appreciate being cluttered by messages from people who take perverse : delight in how long a thread they create. : thank you for your cooperation.       The "what is terrorism?" thread was a renamed continuation of a thread originally started by someone in alt.support.attn-deficit back in 2001.  You, Mark, posted hundreds of responses to that thread in an unsuccessful attempt to argue that certain actions of the USA do not constitute terrorism.  It is a bit late for you to be taking the position you just took in your above note.  You are now behaving like a bad sport after having attempted to refute me and repeatedly making a hash of it.         The title of this thread is new because I feel the old topic has been run in to the ground.  There is not, in fact, any definition of the word "terrorism" which encompasses every act which apologists for the USA’s conduct in foreign policy would wish to label "terrorism" in others, which does not simultaneously encompass actions of which the USA itself is also guilty.  This failure has been amply demonstrated in the lengthy "what is terrorism?" thread.         I have had some interesting exchanges with certain members of alt.support.attn-deficit in the past and would like that to continue if there is any interest, as I suspect there will be.  In compliance with netiquette, I have clearly labeled this new thread title as off topic ("OT") and will consistently use exactly the same title henceforth so that those who do not wish to see this thread may killfile the title and exclude it from their view.  Those who do reply from alt.support.attn-deficit are encouraged to ignore Mark and leave the newsgroup on their follow-up line.  I am interested in the views of members of alt.support.attn-deficit and encourage your participation.       The world is entering a crisis period and never has world opinion been so overwhelmingly negative towards the USA as now.  Why is this?  I believe this issue needs to be discussed and that the internet is an ideal medium for such a discussion to occur.   Chris, USA

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A7139-2004May6?language=printer U.S. Faces Lasting Damage Abroad   By Robin Wright   The Washington Post   Friday 07 May 2004     Moral High Ground Lost, Experts Say.   The United States faces the prospect of a severe and enduring backlash not just in the Middle East but also among strategic allies, putting in question the Bush administration’s ability to make serious headway on a range of foreign policy goals for the rest of this presidential term, according to U.S. officials and foreign policy experts.   The White House damage-control campaign, including the long-awaited apology from President Bush yesterday, is likely to have only limited, if any, success in the near term, administration officials said yesterday.   The White House is so gloomy about the repercussions that senior adviser Karl Rove suggested this week that the consequences of the graphic photographs documenting the U.S. abuse of Iraqi detainees are so enormous that it will take decades for the United States to recover, according to a Bush adviser.   "It’s a blinding glimpse of the obvious to say we’re in a hole," conceded Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage. He said the backlash in Europe is even greater than in the 22-nation Arab world.   "For many of our European friends, what they saw on those horrible pictures is tantamount to torture, and there are very strong views about that," he said yesterday on CNN’s "Paula Zahn Now" show. "In the Arab world, there is general dismay and disgust, but in some places we were not real popular to start with. So I think I’m actually seeing a European reaction quite strong — quite a bit stronger."   In public and private communications, European officials have become critical or disdainful of the United States. France’s foreign ministry said in a statement that the abuse is "totally unacceptable" and, if confirmed, "constitute clear and unacceptable violations of international conventions."   The issue for Arabs and other allies extends beyond the treatment of detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison, which is seen as a metaphor for a stubborn and often defiant U.S. foreign policy under the Bush administration.   Washington first justified military intervention to oust Saddam Hussein, without U.N. support, by asserting that Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction were a real and imminent threat — but then found none.   The administration has since shifted gears, arguing that its primary goal has instead been to create a democracy that would inspire Arabs and the wider Islamic world — only to delay for several months acknowledgement or action on the chronic abuse of Iraqi detainees, analysts note.   As a result, the United States has lost the moral high ground in Iraq, putting its credibility on the line. Now, its broader goals for the region — including an ambitious project to promote democracy, set to be unveiled by Bush at three international summits next month — are in jeopardy, foreign policy and Middle East analysts say.   "The mask of civility has fallen. It used to be that Americans just don’t do that. Now you hear Arabs say, ‘Don’t lecture us about democracy and respect for human rights,’ " said Raghida Dergham, senior diplomatic correspondent for the London-based al Hayat newspaper. "No quick fix is going to reverse the current antagonism toward American policies."   The pictures — and the global reaction — will also complicate efforts by U.S. institutions, including private humanitarian and human rights groups, to promote greater respect for democratic reforms, added Mark Schneider, vice president of International Crisis Group.   Bush’s attempt to invoke historic U.S. values to counter the international fallout is unlikely to ameliorate the foreign backlash. "Bush’s moral confidence in the ultimate goodness of American culture and justice will not convince people who are hopping mad today, and who are chronically cynical about the words of politicians and leaders," said Ellen Laipson, former vice chairman of the National Intelligence Council and now president of the Stimson Center, a foreign policy think tank.   The tragic irony, Arab and foreign policy analysts note, is that the third justification for the intervention in Iraq was the war on terrorism — which they say the pictures of the abuse of Iraqi detainees will instead fuel.   "If you want recruitment tools, these are the best anyone could imagine. They are a big blow and a stimulant to spur people to act against the United States. The real kicker for terrorism is indignity and humiliation, and that’s what these pictures are about," said Moises Naim, editor of Foreign Policy magazine.   The haunting pictures will serve as "manna from heaven" for al Qaeda and other extremist groups, increasing the dangers to U.S. national security, said Hisham Melham, Washington correspondent for al-Arabiya, an Arab television network.   The United States, for now, may also find allies reluctant to engage on other priorities.   "There are a slew of issues — from drug trafficking and the environment — that the United States won’t make much progress on by acting alone. It needs the help of international countries, and it’s going to be very hard for many politicians, not only Muslims, to be a friend of the United States," Naim said.   State Department officials are sanguine about the need for additional and dramatic overtures. "We know there is outrage and it’s going to be around for a long time — until it’s clear we’ve cleaned it up and it will never happen again. We have to make sure we meet our promises to do that," said a senior State Department official who spoke on the condition of anonymity.   Yet Weekly Standard Editor William Kristol, who once worked for Vice President Dan Quayle, suggested that Washington will be able to turn around global public opinion by showing that abuse is not tolerated.   "It’s terrible and it’s made life difficult for awhile," Kristol said. "But if it becomes clear that this is the exception and [the troops involved] are held accountable, it could end up being an impressive demonstration to countries where torture is routine."

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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/20040508/ts_…   For Many Iraqis, Abuse Settles Opinion of U.S.   By Evan Osnos and Deborah Horan   The Chicago Tribune   Saturday 08 May 2004     The crowd outside the prison walls seethes, demanding to visit the thousands inside.   Sunni and Shiite Muslims, engineers and farmers, mothers, uncles and militants are gathered on this scorching Friday. Each frantically waves the name and prisoner number of a brother, a father or a son, scribbled on a shred of paper, a scrap of a cigarette box, or typed on a crumpled bit of stationery.   "They will only let 30 people inside today," the Iraqi official from Abu Ghraib prison shouts as the angry cluster of roughly 100 visitors erupts in jeers. "Whoever is here without an appointment must come back next week."   More than a week into the fallout of abuse disclosures at Abu Ghraib prison, Iraqi outrage has swelled far beyond just photos of cruelty and torture and has seized on a much broader target: the entire U.S. system of raids, captures and detention. The human toll from a year of mounting confinements has emerged as an essential factor darkening Iraqi perceptions of the occupation and the United States.   Abu Ghraib, in short, has become the symbol of a deep sense of humiliation and frustration that crosses sectarian and class lines–a feeling that many argue is fueling the very insurgency the prisons are intended to contain.   "This will be a turning point," Ismael Zayer, editor in chief of the daily Al-Sabah Al-Jadid newspaper, said of the prison scandal.   Facing that realization, U.S. officials acknowledge they are scrambling to sharply reduce the size of Iraq’s prison population, hoping to shrug off a costly project they never planned to manage on this scale. At its peak population early this year, Abu Ghraib prison held 8,000 people–nearly double its capacity–with all but several hundred prisoners living in basic canvas tents. The average detainee stayed more than four months.   "We recognized that is it is a bone of contention with the people we are supposed to be helping," a senior coalition official said. "We are really pushing the accelerator pedal to reduce the prisoner population for obvious reasons."   The Army never planned to be so enmeshed in the prison business in Iraq. But U.S. forces had barely settled in Baghdad in April 2003 before the bloodshed from a growing insurgency demonstrated that detaining civilian insurgents would fast become a part of the occupation.   Detention Duty a Struggle   From the beginning, the captures were presented by U.S. officials as steps toward peace. For months, U.S. military spokesmen stood before reporters in Baghdad and announced how many dozens of coalition opponents had been captured in raids each day. Thousands were being sent to Abu Ghraib and 15 other U.S.-run detention facilities throughout Iraq.   Yet military forces struggled to handle them. An internal Army report on the prison-abuse scandal prepared by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba found that the military police unit at Abu Ghraib at the time had received no training in running a prison before setting foot in Iraq. In fact, neither of the Army’s two battalions trained in confinement have ever been assigned to Iraq, the report notes. One is in Afghanistan , and the other is in Kuwait.   By comparison, says Detlev Vagts, a Harvard international law professor and expert on the , Allied occupation of Germany after World War II, the U.S. planned far in advance for assuming a role as prison masters if needed.   "They had already started preparation of American troops to take control of Germans by the summer of 1942," two years before the Allied invasion of Western Europe, Vagts said. "We trained interpreters. We had specialist teams who came in early and immediately began sorting out arrangements with police forces [for detention facilities]."   The prison abuse case has triggered an investigation into military intelligence practices and the training of military police who work in jails. The newly appointed chief of U.S.-run prisons in Iraq, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, says he is considering restricting the use of certain "particularly aggressive" interrogation techniques. President Bush , meanwhile, and other top U.S. officials have offered apologies to the Iraqi people.   Apologies Too Late   But to many Iraqis, the apologies and declarations are too late to bridge a widening gap in the U.S.-Iraqi relationship. Despite U.S. officials’ insistence that abusive practices are not widespread, many on the streets of Baghdad see the photos of men being forced into humiliating sexual positions as another illustration of the U.S. attitude toward Iraq.   People feel their dignity has been insulted," said Ahmad al-Samaree, the imam of a large Sunni mosque in Baghdad. "What will a father tell his son when an American soldier comes and handcuffs him, then makes him lay down and then a female soldier comes and steps on his head?"   U.S. officials argue that the insurgency is confined largely to loyalists to the former regime and foreign extremists. But to al-Samaree, who has close ties to rebels in Fallujah and Baghdad, that argument overlooks the effect that a year of building national frustration may have had in enabling rebels to operate.   "That’s why we hear them on their way to the cemetery saying, `Revenge, revenge,’" he said.   That pervasive feeling of dishonor is voiced by a wide array of Iraqis, far beyond the ranks of those who have been arrested or detained. Zayer, the newspaper editor, is a prominent journalist and longtime U.S. ally who headed al-Sabah, a popular coalition-funded newspaper, until American "arrogance" recently drove him to quit, he said.   "They refused to recognize our independence," Zayer said of coalition officials. "The whole newspaper resigned. We walked out."   Many Allegations Credible   In the days since the abuse cases gained wide public notice with the publication of shocking photos, a flood of allegations have poured forth from former detainees–most of them impossible to confirm. Some are dubious, but many others are credible, including shared experiences of sleep deprivation, long hours forced into "stress positions," and naked interrogations, among others.   The validity of those anecdotes was buttressed Thursday when the International Committee of the Red Cross announced it had reported precisely such allegations to U.S. authorities months before the abuse cases came to light.   But to the scores of Iraqis who flow into this bleak prison parking lot each day from around Iraq, the international spotlight does not mend the damage from a bitter year.   Mohammed Ahmed al-Samarai, 48, arrived April 6 for a scheduled visit with his uncle at Abu Ghraib, as he had several times since the arrest last May. But when he arrived, he was told that his uncle, Saadan Hassan had died, days earlier, in a rebel mortar attack on the prison. Instead of a visit, officials told al-Samarai to retrieve the body, he recalls. The uncle, he says, was 80 years old.   U.S. officials say they are working to accelerate the review board process that decides who gets a trial and who gets released.   But in the meantime, the problem for 30-year-old Fawzia Waharbia is more practical than matters of justice. Her husband, a clerk in a Baghdad court, was arrested 10 months ago, on charges that he was a captain in Saddam Hussein ’s Fedayeen Saddam.   Waharbia says she soon ran out of money for her five children. She works now cleaning a school in the mornings and sells some of her government-supplied food rations for the bus ticket to the prison every day.   From a pocket deep inside her black abaya, the tiny woman pulls out a slip of paper scrawled with internee no. 15024065.   "Can you help me?" she pleaded, her eyes filling with tears. "I need him out."

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http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/05/08/MNG0G6IFJN…   Rumsfeld Warns of Photos Depicting Worse Abuses   By Marc Sandalow   The San Francisco Chronicle   Saturday 08 May 2004   Washington — Not since the Vietnam War a generation ago has the credibility of top U.S. military commanders been challenged as aggressively and openly as it was Friday on Capitol Hill.   For more than six hours and with television cameras broadcasting the event around the world, members of both parties — those who support the U.S. war in Iraq and those who don’t — expressed alarm over the Pentagon’s seemingly snail-paced response to the gut-wrenching photographs that one Republican House member characterized as the public relations equivalent of Pearl Harbor.   As Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld warned that he had personally previewed more pictures, and that the worst is yet to come, many fear that the nation may be reaching a tipping point in its tolerance for what already has been the deadliest U.S. military conflict since Vietnam.   "I’m gravely concerned that many Americans will have the same impulse as I did when I saw (these) pictures, and that’s to turn away from them," said Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., a strong supporter of President Bush’s policy in Iraq.   "We risk losing public support for this conflict. As Americans turned away from the Vietnam War, they may turn away from this one unless this issue is quickly resolved," McCain said.   With no weapons of mass destruction found, few signs of democracy blossoming and now graphic evidence that the abuse of Iraqi civilians — at least in isolated incidences — did not end with the ouster of Saddam Hussein, "the whole logic of the war is gone," said former Sen. Gary Hart.   Often, certain moments galvanize American opinion in times of war. The attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, the Tet Offensive in 1968, the dragging of American corpses through the streets of Somalia in 1994 and the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon in 2001 had profound effects on America’s resolve for battle.   For many, the pictures of U.S. soldiers seeming to derive pleasure from brutalizing Iraqi detainees has shaken the widely held belief that the U.S. cause in Iraq is just and that Americans — even in times of war — rise above such blatant cruelty.   "People are not confident that we are winning. Nor are they confident that we are doing the right thing," said Karlyn Bowman, a public opinion expert with the American Enterprise Institute in Washington.   Public opinion on the war has reached an all-time low. The latest polls, conducted earlier this week, find Americans evenly divided over whether it was a mistake to have started the war in Iraq, and support has eroded steadily since the war began last year, when an overwhelming majority said it was the right thing to do. The numbers today are nearly identical to what they were in 1968, shortly after the Tet Offensive, as public opinion began to turn against the Vietnam War.   Americans typically are reluctant to say going to war was a mistake. A majority supported the Persian Gulf War in 1991 through its conclusion, and it took until 1968, several years after heavy U.S. involvement in Vietnam, for a majority to turn against that war. It was not until 1973, after President Richard Nixon had withdrawn nearly all the troops, that as many as 70 percent of Americans said the Vietnam War was a mistake.   But as casualties mount in Iraq and the rationale of the war has eroded, so has public support.   Just last week, Bush said that as a result of removing Hussein, "there are no longer torture chambers or rape rooms or mass graves in Iraq."   Yet even if Hussein’s oppression was incomparable by its order of magnitude, there are now pictures of mass graves in a soccer field in Fallujah, of torture at the hands of U.S. captors and, as Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina warned Friday, videos that may contain images of rape and murder.   Rumsfeld repeatedly drew contrasts between the American occupiers and Hussein, noting that no apologies or investigations ever sprang from his dictatorship.   "People do bad things to other people," Rumsfeld said, "(but) we have a free, open system. We’re not an evil society. America is not what’s wrong with the world."   Yet some members of Congress openly challenged Rumsfeld’s willingness to cooperate with them.   "I see arrogance and a disdain for Congress," said Democratic Sen. Robert Byrd of West Virginia.   "I see misplaced bravado and an unwillingness to admit mistakes. I see finger-pointing and excuses. Given the catastrophic impact that this scandal has had on the world community, how can the United States ever repair its credibility? How are we supposed to convince not only the Iraqi people, but also the rest of the world, that America is, indeed, a liberator and not a conqueror, not an arrogant power?" Byrd asked.   As in the Vietnam era, the credibility of the Pentagon has been jeopardized. Members of Congress were incredulous that after months of internal investigations and months of warning from such agencies as the International Red Cross, Rumsfeld said he didn’t have enough information to take to Congress.   "Mr. Secretary, there was no other way for you to find this out? You were not aware of concerns offered by the Red Cross?" asked Rep. Ellen Tauscher, D- Walnut Creek.   The political consequences for the Bush administration are uncertain.   "If Mr. Bush fires Mr. Rumsfeld, the voters may well conclude it is time to fire him," warned an editorial in Friday’s Wall Street Journal.   What seems more certain is that the revelations of the prison abuse and the questions they raise will hurt the U.S. mission in Iraq.   "Do you think this incident will have any effect?" Democratic Rep. Madeleine Bordallo, the House delegate from Guam, asked Rumsfeld.   "Of course," Rumsfeld said.   "In what way?" she inquired.   "Harmful," he responded.

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http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E416%257E,00.html Tear down Abu Ghraib prison The Denver Post Tuesday, May 11, 2004 By Chris Dugan    The resignation or firing of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz will be an essential first step for the U.S. to regain face in the wake of the revelations about torture and maltreatment of Iraqis in Abu Ghraib prison.    But the prison itself needs to be torn down. This should have been done immediately after the U.S. took control of Iraq in last year’s war. It had long been a symbol of Saddam Hussein’s tyranny and cruelty. Demolishing the structure would have sent the message that the U.S. was serious about "liberating" the Iraqi people from dictatorship and torture. Instead, we moved into the prison and continue to use it for essentially the same purposes as Hussein. Now it has become an international symbol of American arrogance, corruption, hypocrisy and disregard for established international standards of human rights.    It is time for the wrecking ball.

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   Keep in mind that according to CIA operative Abdulrahman Khadr, who infiltrated the Guantanamo Bay prison population for several months under deep cover, most of the detainees there were never al-Qaeda or Taliban and don’t belong there.  Also keep in mind that the report from the International Committee of the Red Cross which was leaked yesterday stated that some coalition intelligence officials have stated that 70-90% of the detainees in US custody in Iraq are probably innocent.     This is the predictable result when one abandons established standards of evidence and due process.  How can the USA lecture the rest of the world about "basic human rights" while holding thousands of people, most of them innocent, incommunicado without habeus corpus rights, without trial etc.?   Chris http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1212197,00.html   U.K. Forces Taught Torture Methods   By David Leigh   The Guardian U.K.   Saturday 08 May 2004   The sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was not an invention of maverick guards, but part of a system of ill-treatment and degradation used by special forces soldiers that is now being disseminated among ordinary troops and contractors who do not know what they are doing, according to British military sources.   The techniques devised in the system, called R2I – resistance to interrogation – match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.   One former British special forces officer who returned last week from Iraq, said: "It was clear from discussions with US private contractors in Iraq that the prison guards were using R2I techniques, but they didn’t know what they were doing."   He said British and US military intelligence soldiers were trained in these techniques, which were taught at the joint services interrogation centre in Ashford, Kent, now transferred to the former US base at Chicksands.   "There is a reservoir of knowledge about these interrogation techniques which is retained by former special forces soldiers who are being rehired as private contractors in Iraq. Contractors are bringing in their old friends".   Using sexual jibes and degradation, along with stripping naked, is one of the methods taught on both sides of the Atlantic under the slogan "prolong the shock of capture", he said.   Female guards were used to taunt male prisoners sexually and at British training sessions when female candidates were undergoing resistance training they would be subject to lesbian jibes.   "Most people just laugh that off during mock training exercises, but the whole experience is horrible. Two of my colleagues couldn’t cope with the training at the time. One walked out saying ‘I’ve had enough’, and the other had a breakdown. It’s exceedingly disturbing," said the former Special Boat Squadron officer, who asked that his identity be withheld for security reasons.   Many British and US special forces soldiers learn about the degradation techniques because they are subjected to them to help them resist if captured. They include soldiers from the SAS, SBS, most air pilots, paratroopers and members of pathfinder platoons.   A number of commercial firms which have been supplying interrogators to the US army in Iraq boast of hiring former US special forces soldiers, such as Navy Seals.   "The crucial difference from Iraq is that frontline soldiers who are made to experience R2I techniques themselves develop empathy. They realise the suffering they are causing. But people who haven’t undergone this don’t realise what they are doing to people. It’s a shambles in Iraq".   The British former officer said the dissemination of R2I techniques inside Iraq was all the more dangerous because of the general mood among American troops.   "The feeling among US soldiers I’ve spoken to in the last week is also that ‘the gloves are off’. Many of them still think they are dealing with people responsible for 9/11".   When the interrogation techniques are used on British soldiers for training purposes, they are subject to a strict 48-hour time limit, and a supervisor and a psychologist are always present. It is recognised that in inexperienced hands, prisoners can be plunged into psychosis.   The spectrum of R2I techniques also includes keeping prisoners naked most of the time. This is what the Abu Ghraib photographs show, along with inmates being forced to crawl on a leash; forced to masturbate in front of a female soldier; mimic oral sex with other male prisoners; and form piles of naked, hooded men.   The full battery of methods includes hooding, sleep deprivation, time disorientation and depriving prisoners not only of dignity, but of fundamental human needs, such as warmth, water and food.   The US commander in charge of military jails in Iraq, Major General Geoffrey Miller, has confirmed that a battery of 50-odd special "coercive techniques" can be used against enemy detainees. The general, who previously ran the prison camp at Guant?mo Bay, said his main role was to extract as much intelligence as possible.   Interrogation experts at Abu Ghraib prison were there to help make the prison staff "more able to garner intelligence as rapidly as possible".   Sleep deprivation and stripping naked were techniques that could now only be authorised at general officer level, he said.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In alt.parenting.spanking M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 10, 2004 <M.a.r.k > : Please delete alt.support.attn-deficit when reply to Chris. Support groups > : do not appreciate being cluttered by messages from people who take perverse > : delight in how long a thread they create. > : thank you for your cooperation. >       The "what is terrorism?" thread was a renamed continuation of a > thread originally started by someone in alt.support.attn-deficit back in > 2001.  You, Mark, posted hundreds of responses to that thread in an > unsuccessful attempt to argue that certain actions of the USA do not > constitute terrorism.

Chris, I was wrong to try to refute your greatness. You are wonderful. You are the most knowledgeable. Now, kindly FOAD and quit spamming off topic newsgroups.

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Chris obviously does not entertain polite reuqests to not post off topic to newsgroups. The only way to end these threads is to never respond to him.

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>And with men parading around in women’s panties, an average Friday night >in  San Francsico.

Or Denver.

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> US soldiers "entered houses usually after dark, breaking down >doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members >into one room under military guard while searching the rest of the house >and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property," the report said. > Sounds like your average American police raid.

Yep, drug raid at 4AM. Ooops. Wrong house. sorry…

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>    Keep in mind tha<snip>

OK. So you insist on being stupid. Join the your friends. *plonk*

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Truth is, this where the completely powerless flap jaws (typing) to "vent" and are 110% ignored by the powerful. Marc Mulay Laguna Hills, CA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > The world is entering a crisis period and never has world opinion > been so overwhelmingly negative towards the USA as now.  Why is this?  I > believe this issue needs to be discussed and that the internet is an ideal > medium for such a discussion to occur. > Chris, USA

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   While posturing as the "land of the free," the USA has the largest per capita prison population of any country in the world, including the so-called "axis of evil" countries.  And the kinds of abuses depicted in the recent photos from Abu Ghraib prison are far from rare in the US prison system.  But try to get anyone to care! Chris http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&u=/nm/20040506/ts_nm/ir… Abuse Common in U.S. Prisons, Activists Say Thursday May 6, By Alan Elsner WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Horrific abuses, some similar to those revealed in Iraq, regularly occur in U.S. prisons with little national attention or public outrage, human rights activists said on Thursday. "We certainly see many of the same kinds of things here in the United States, including sexual assaults and the abuse of prisoners, against both men and women," said Kara Gotsch, public policy coordinator for the national prison project of the American Civil Liberties Union (news – web sites). "This office has been involved in cases in which prisoners have been raped by guards and humiliated but we don’t talk about it much in America and we certainly don’t hear the president expressing outrage," she said. President Bush has said he was disgusted by the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. Yet, there were many cases of abuse in Texas when he served as governor from 1995 to 2000. For example, in September 1996, guards at the Brazoria County jail in Texas staged a drug raid on inmates that was videotaped for training purposes. The tape showed several inmates forced to strip and lie on the ground. A police dog attacked several prisoners; the tape clearly showed one being bitten on the leg. Guards prodded prisoners with stun guns and forced them to crawl along the ground. Then they dragged injured inmates face down back to their cells. In a 1999 opinion, federal Judge William Wayne Justice wrote of the situation in Texas state prisons: "Many inmates credibly testified to the existence of violence, rape and extortion in the prison system and about their own suffering from such abysmal conditions." Judy Greene of Justice Strategies, a New York City consultancy, said: "When I saw Bush’s interview on Arab TV stations, I was thinking, had he ever stepped inside a Texas prison when he was governor?" PRISON GUARDS INVOLVED Two of those allegedly involved in the abuse of Iraqis were U.S. prison guards. Spc. Charles Graner, who appears in some of the most lurid photographs, was a guard at Greene County State Correctional Institution, one of Pennsylvania’s top security death row prisons. Two years after he arrived at Greene, the prison was at the center of an abuse scandal in which guards routinely beat and humiliated prisoners. Prison officials have declined to say whether Graner had been disciplined in that case. Staff Sgt. Ivan "Chip" Frederick was a corrections officer at Buckingham Correctional Center in Virginia. In a statement published by the Richmond Times Dispatch on Thursday, Frederick compared his role at Abu Ghraib in Iraq with his job as a guard in Buckingham, where he said he had "very strict policies and procedures as to how to handle any given situation." In Iraq, he said, there were no such policies. Jenni Gainsborough of Penal Reform International said: "I don’t think we routinely torture prisoners in the United States but abuse and humiliation regularly occur. They may have been trying to get information out of the Iraqis but some of those photographs look to me as if the U.S. personnel were enjoying inflicting the humiliation." BRUTALITY DOCUMENTED In Cook County Jail in Chicago, the elite Special Operations Response Team has been implicated in scores of incidents of racially motivated violence and brutality in recent years. One of the most dramatic took place on Feb. 4, 1999, when SORT members accompanied by four guard dogs without muzzles ordered 400 prisoners to leave their cells in response to a gang-related stabbing three days earlier. According to a 50-page report by the sheriff’s Internal Affairs Division, the guards ransacked cells, then herded inmates into common areas where they were forced to strip and face the wall with hands behind their head. Anyone who looked away from the wall was struck with a wooden baton. Some prisoners were forced to lie on the floor, where they were stomped and kicked. One inmate, who did not leave a cell fast enough said he was beaten with fists and batons until he urinated on himself and went into convulsions. At least 49 inmates told investigators they had been beaten. After the beatings, guards prevented inmates from receiving immediate medical care. Corrections officer Roger Fairley testified in a deposition last year that guards were afraid to come forward to tell of what they had seen in case their colleagues took revenge. "On many and many occasions I witnessed excessive force, abuse of power, intimidation," he said.

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> Chris, > If I knew this to be true, I would agree 100%. Time will soon tell.

   Greg I really wish I could share your optimism that "time will soon tell."  The reason I do not share it is that this is actually not a "new story" at all.  Serious allegations of widespread systemic prisoner abuse in Iraq have been public for well over a year now, from credible sources such as the International Committee of the Red Cross and Amnesty International.  I know I was aware of them back in March of 2003 when the current Iraq war first began because I recently did a search of my own postings and found that I started posting about it back then.  I learned of these allegations simply by reading Reuters News Service and CBS.com.   As far back as July I was posting specifically about Abu Ghraib prison and abuses there.  Somehow, I was able to learn all this just from reading the mainstream news, yet the President of the United States claims he knew nothing about any of this until last week when the shocking photos first appeared on television and became a political liability for him during an election year.        There has already been plenty of "time" but it has yet to "tell."   Note that the International Committee of the Red Cross report which was leaked on Monday which said that 70-90% of Iraqi detainees were mistakenly imprisoned has been in circulation for months behind the scenes.  It is only "new" to you and me because of the recent leak which made it public. > With what we do know already, I am sickened me to hear the things these > soldiers did in my nation’s name. The Arab world will hate us no matter > what we do or don’t do because of our backing for Israel (which I > support), but sexual humiliation of prisoners is sickening and > intolerable. I can only hope that heads roll up the chain of command.

     I must disagree that the Arab world will always hate the USA no matter what.  In the not so distant past, America was quite popular with the average Arab on the street despite frustrations with the USA’s support of Israel’s rejectionist stance and noncompliance with various key UN resolutions.  Watergate created the impression that America is a place where there is so much democracy that the president has to resign just for telling a single lie.  And American pop culture and music was well received and created a favorable impression of America and Americans.   The near-universal loathing of the USA which has emerged in the Arab world under Mr. Bush’s watch is something quite new.  If I were a conspiracy theorist (which I am not) I might suspect that Bush was secretly working for al-Qaeda, because he certainly is helping them recruit new members and mobilize the muslim world in their favor while causing more American deaths than any al-Qaeda action aside from 9-11.  Under Saddam, al-Qaeda members were imprisoned and killed in Iraq.  Now Iraq is a shining opportunity for them to advance their agenda, all thanks to the actions of the Bush administration. > We need to use other methods of interrogation, which could include > minimal food and water, constant bright lights in cells, constant > clanging outside cell doors, high volume rap music, and other related > activities meant to wear down prisoners, but to videotape rapes or pose > people in sexually auggestive poses… nope, can’t agree to that.

     I respectfully opine that even this goes too far.  When American detainees in unfriendly countries are forced to endure days of sleeplessness and deprived of adequate food and water, the USA quite correctly denounces this as a violation of basic human rights.  It is equally wrong when American forces do the same things to detainees in their custody. Chris

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: Fuck you, Dugan.      Ah Lord Valve, I see you are still around.  How have you been, old chum?  You haven’t changed, I see – still dazzling us with scintillating logic and facts as always.  :-) : You’re a leftist creep    As you already know, I am a registered Republican and a supporter of the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. : who roots for the enemy.  You’ve been doing it for years.      This perennial claim that I "root for the enemy" is nonsense, of course.  If there were any truth to this sort of empty charge you would post links to previous notes of mine in which I have expressed support for bin Laden and his goals.  No such notes exist, so you must resort to empty smears like the above. : You’re no better : than Levin – an anti-American loser who provides soundbites : for Al Jazeera.  Drag your lame ass outta that communist : "institution of higher learning" you’re hiding in and try : spouting your defeatist bullshit in a room full of *regular* : Americans.  See if they don’t hand you your fucking ass.    In other words, it frustrates you that on the internet, Americans may express views which are domestically unpopular without being physically beaten up for it.  I quite understand.  It must be very frustrating for you to be emotionally attached to views which you are unable to defend in any more cogent manner.    I think your problem is that you get all your "news" from a silly right wing opinion website, WorldNetDaily.com, while dismissing virtually the entire mainstream media, both in the USA and out, as "bullshit."    On July 21st you said that CBSNEWS.com "= Bullshit."  This was in response to a CBS report I reposted which detailed serious allegations about abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US forces in the Abu Ghraib prison.   Your entire response to early news of this serious scandal which is now shaking the world was to post cut the entire report except for the words "CBSNEWS.com" and then add the phrase "= Bullshit."      On July 26th you said that the entire Public Broadcasting System in America "= bullshit,"  The Independent (UK) "= bullshit," The Washington Post "= MAJOR bullshit," The Boston Globe "= bullshit," United Press International "= bullshit," and Reuters News Service "= bullshit."    On August 9th you said The Guardian (UK) "= communist bullshit.    On August 8th you said that The Agence France Presse "= frog bullshit."      On August 2nd you said Al-Ahram Weekly "= ARAB bullshit," and the United Nations "= bullshit."    On July 28th you said that The Economist "= bullshit," The New York Times "= bullshit" and The Financial Times "= bullshit."    You, Lord Valve, live in a world of your own.  And in this respect, you are very much like many other of my fellow Americans.  I do hope you will continue to post on this thread.  When you do so, you illustrate an important facet of why America has come so far down the wrong path, and do so more vividly than I ever could.      Having said all of this, I shall now return to ignoring you as I generally do 99% of the time.  ;-)   Chris,  USA

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : Fuck you, Dugan. >    Ah Lord Valve, I see you are still around.  How have you been, old > chum?  You haven’t changed, I see – still dazzling us with scintillating > logic and facts as always.  :-) > : You’re a leftist creep >    As you already know, I am a registered Republican and a supporter of > the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. > : who roots for the enemy.  You’ve been doing it for years. >    This perennial claim that I "root for the enemy" is nonsense, of > course.  If there were any truth to this sort of empty charge you would > post links to previous notes of mine in which I have expressed support for > bin Laden and his goals.  No such notes exist, so you must resort to empty > smears like the above. > : You’re no better > : than Levin – an anti-American loser who provides soundbites > : for Al Jazeera.  Drag your lame ass outta that communist > : "institution of higher learning" you’re hiding in and try > : spouting your defeatist bullshit in a room full of *regular* > : Americans.  See if they don’t hand you your fucking ass. >    In other words, it frustrates you that on the internet, Americans may > express views which are domestically unpopular without being physically > beaten up for it.  I quite understand.  It must be very frustrating for > you to be emotionally attached to views which you are unable to defend in > any more cogent manner. >    I think your problem is that you get all your "news" from a silly right > wing opinion website, WorldNetDaily.com, while dismissing virtually the > entire mainstream media, both in the USA and out, as "bullshit." >    On July 21st you said that CBSNEWS.com "= Bullshit."  This was in > response to a CBS report I reposted which detailed serious allegations > about abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US forces in the Abu Ghraib prison. > Your entire response to early news of this serious scandal which is now > shaking the world was to post cut the entire report except for the words > "CBSNEWS.com" and then add the phrase "= Bullshit." >    On July 26th you said that the entire Public Broadcasting System in > America "= bullshit,"  The Independent (UK) "= bullshit," The Washington > Post "= MAJOR bullshit," The Boston Globe "= bullshit," United Press > International "= bullshit," and Reuters News Service "= bullshit." >    On August 9th you said The Guardian (UK) "= communist bullshit. >    On August 8th you said that The Agence France Presse "= frog bullshit." >    On August 2nd you said Al-Ahram Weekly "= ARAB bullshit," and the > United Nations "= bullshit." >    On July 28th you said that The Economist "= bullshit," The New York > Times "= bullshit" and The Financial Times "= bullshit." >    You, Lord Valve, live in a world of your own.  And in this respect, you > are very much like many other of my fellow Americans.  I do hope you will > continue to post on this thread.  When you do so, you illustrate an > important facet of why America has come so far down the wrong path, and do > so more vividly than I ever could. >    Having said all of this, I shall now return to ignoring you as I > generally do 99% of the time.  ;-) > Chris,  USA

Bravo! That was brilliant!

Response:

   The continuing pattern of US violation of international laws to which it is a solemn signatory, such as Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, not only shames all Americans in the eyes of the world, it emboldens human rights violators the world over.  "See?" they can argue, "The USA does it so why shouldn’t I do it too?" Chris, USA Memo Lets CIA Take Detainees Out of Iraq Sun Oct 24, 8:21 AM ET By Dana Priest, Washington Post Staff Writer At the request of the CIA, the Justice Department drafted a confidential memo that authorizes the agency to transfer detainees out of Iraq for interrogation — a practice that international legal specialists say contravenes the Geneva Conventions. One intelligence official familiar with the operation said the CIA has used the March draft memo as legal support for secretly transporting as many as a dozen detainees out of Iraq in the last six months. The agency has concealed the detainees from the International Committee of the Red Cross and other authorities, the official said. The draft opinion, written by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel and dated March 19, 2004, refers to both Iraqi citizens and foreigners in Iraq, who the memo says are protected by the treaty. It permits the CIA to take Iraqis out of the country to be interrogated for a "brief but not indefinite period." It also says the CIA can permanently remove persons deemed to be "illegal aliens" under "local immigration law." Some specialists in international law say the opinion amounts to a reinterpretation of one of the most basic rights of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which protects civilians during wartime and occupation, including insurgents who were not part of Iraq’s military. The treaty prohibits the "[i]ndividual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory . . . regardless of their motive." The 1949 treaty notes that a violation of this particular provision constitutes a "grave breach" of the accord, and thus a "war crime" under U.S. federal law, according to a footnote in the Justice Department draft. "For these reasons," the footnote reads, "we recommend that any contemplated relocations of ‘protected persons’ from Iraq to facilitate interrogation be carefully evaluated for compliance with Article 49 on a case by case basis." It says that even persons removed from Iraq retain the treaty’s protections, which would include humane treatment and access to international monitors. During the war in Afghanistan, the administration ruled that al Qaeda fighters were not considered "protected persons" under the convention. Many of them were transferred out of the country to the naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and elsewhere for interrogations. By contrast, the U.S. government deems former members of Saddam Hussein’s Baath Party and military, as well as insurgents and other civilians in Iraq, to be protected by the Geneva Conventions. International law experts contacted for this article described the legal reasoning contained in the Justice Department memo as unconventional and disturbing. "The overall thrust of the Convention is to keep from moving people out of the country and out of the protection of the Convention," said former senior military attorney Scott Silliman, executive director of Duke University’s Center on Law, Ethics and National Security. "The memorandum seeks to create a legal regime justifying conduct that the international community clearly considers in violation of international law and the Convention." Silliman reviewed the document at The Post’s request. The CIA, Justice Department and the author of the draft opinion, Jack L. Goldsmith, former director of the Office of Legal Counsel, declined to comment for this article.

Response:

Love God. Love you rneighbor. Forgive 7 x 70. Don’t worry about the splinter in your neighbor’s eye, when you have a log in your own eye. Bush has taken us so far from Jesus.

Response:

>Love God. >Love you rneighbor. >Forgive 7 x 70. >Don’t worry about the splinter in your neighbor’s eye, when you have a log >in your own eye. >Bush has taken us so far from Jesus.

Who cares? Buzz off. Claude

Response:

   I have been wrong over and over again regarding this war.  No matter how bad I think it will be, in the long run things turn out even worse than that.      Bush has publically stated that "terrorists cannot hide behind innocent civilians anymore."  Clearly, he spoke the truth.  The USA has been shooting right through them to get at its enemies.    Now, we learn that 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died.  And we wonder, why do they hate us? Chris, USA http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=NW_1-T&oldflok=ne-us-… Study: 100,000 Excess Civilian Iraqi Deaths Since War By Patricia Reaney LONDON (Reuters) – Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed in violence since the U.S.-led invasion last year, American public health experts have calculated in a report that estimates there were 100,000 "excess deaths" in 18 months. The rise in the death rate was mainly due to violence and much of it was caused by U.S. air strikes on towns and cities. "Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100,000 excess deaths, or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq," said Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in a report published online by The Lancet medical journal. "The use of air power in areas with lots of civilians appears to be killing a lot of women and children," Roberts told Reuters. The report came just days before the U.S. presidential election in which the Iraq war has been a major issue. Mortality was already high in Iraq before the war because of United Nations sanctions blocking food and medical imports but the researchers described what they found as shocking. The new figures are based on surveys done by the researchers in Iraq in September 2004. They compared Iraqi deaths during 14.6 months before the invasion in March 2003 and the 17.8 months after it by conducting household surveys in randomly selected neighborhoods. Previous estimates based on think tank and media sources put the Iraqi civilian death toll at up to 16,053 and military fatalities as high as 6,370. By comparison about 849 U.S. military were killed in combat or attacks and another 258 died in accidents or incidents not related to fighting, according to the Pentagon. VERY BAD FOR IRAQI CIVILIANS The researchers blamed air strikes for many of the deaths. "What we have evidence of is the use of air power in populated urban areas and the bad consequences of it," Roberts said. Gilbert Burnham, who collaborated on the research, said U.S. military action in Iraq was "very bad for Iraqi civilians." "We were not expecting the level of deaths from violence that we found in this study and we hope this will lead to some serious discussions of how military and political aims can be achieved in a way that is not so detrimental to civilians populations," he told Reuters in an interview. The researchers did 33 cluster surveys of 30 households each, recording the date, circumstances and cause of deaths. They found that the risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher than before the war. Before the war the major causes of death were heart attacks, chronic disorders and accidents. That changed after the war. Two-thirds of violent deaths in the study were reported in Falluja, the insurgent held city 50 km (32 miles) west of Baghdad which had been repeatedly hit by U.S. air strikes. "Our results need further verification and should lead to changes to reduce non-combatant deaths from air strikes," Roberts added in the study. Richard Horton, editor of The Lancet, said the research which was submitted to the journal earlier this month had been peer-reviewed, edited and fast-tracked for publication because of its importance in the evolving security situation in Iraq. "But these findings also raise questions for those far removed from Iraq — in the governments of the countries responsible for launching a pre-emptive war," Horton said in an editorial.

Response:

> (Reuters) > estimates > assumptions > we think > appears to be > Reuters. > estimates > accidents > incidents not related to fighting > Reuters > 33 cluster surveys of 30 households > Falluja > "Our results need further verification…"

= propaganda.  Speculation.  Laughable.  Next? Lord Valve American

Response:

: Laughable.  Next?         I am glad you are able to see the humor in thousands of innocent civilians killed by your government and mine, Lord Valve.  I don’t. Chris, USA

Response:

   If anyone on this thread can document a single instance of a bonafide al-Quaeda spokesperson publically expressing support for John Kerry, please post it.  I made the rounds of conservative op-ed websites and came up empty handed after hours of wading through one empty "terrorists for Kerry" spin article after another, all without a scrap of supporting evidence for the claim.    Meanwhile, what little material I was able to find regarding al-Quaeda’s preferences in the US election, all leaned towards a preference for four more years of Bush.  Here is the evidence that Islamist terrorists would prefer Bush to Kerry.    According to the Columbia Journalism Review [1] an article by London-based expert on radical Islamic groups, Dr. Hani Al Sibai, appeared on October 4th in the Saudi government’s official Arabic language London newspaper, Al Sharq Al Awsat, entitled, "The Fundamentalists Disagree Over the First Debate in US Presidential Elections Campaign and Some of Them Hope Bush Will Win Because He Opened a New Front for ‘Al Qaeda’ in Iraq." Dr. Al Sibai explains, "Kerry might withdraw the US forces … and this will mean a big loss for the jihadists."     This is consistent with the position of the Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades, the al-Qaeda linked group taking credit for the murderous train bombings in Madrid on March 11 which killed over 200 innocent people.   Reuters News Service [2] reported on March 17th that this group had issued a statement declaring that it, "supported U.S. President George W. Bush in his reelection campaign, and would prefer him to win in November rather than the Democratic candidate John Kerry, as it was not possible to find a leader ‘more foolish than you (Bush), who deals with matters by force rather than with wisdom.’"  The terrorists, addressing themselves to President Bush, stated, "Kerry will kill our nation while it sleeps because he and the Democrats have the cunning to embellish blasphemy and present it to the Arab and Muslim nation as civilisation. Because of this we desire you (Bush) to be elected."     That radical Islamists linked to Osama bin Laden support Bush’s relection bid ought to surprise no one.  Under Bush’s watch, the wave of international sympathy for America following the 9/11 attacks evaporated, leaving the USA more hated and distrusted by the world at large than perhaps at any time in its history, according to international polls conducted by the Pew Global Attitudes Project [3,4].    The ill-conceived, botched invasion of an Arab country with no connection to the events of 9/11 in the name of a "war on terror" has greatly furthered al-Qaeda’s campaign to unite Muslim world opinion against the USA, and brought them a welcome new surge in recruitment.   Saddam Hussein was a bitter enemy of Osama bin Laden, ruthlessly suppressing Islamist groups within Iraq’s borders.  Now, thanks to Mr. Bush, Iraq has truly become the operating theater for al-Qaeda which the Bush administration wrongly claimed it to be before the invasion.      And the Abu Ghraib prison scandal must have exceeded Mr. Bin Laden’s most ferverent hopes that the American infidels would play into his hands, appearing as little short of a gift from Allah Himself.  The images of Americans torturing and humiliating Muslims galvanized anti-American fervor more effectively than anything al-Qaeda could ever have done or said.  If Mr. Bin Laden’s prayers are answered again, his next gift from Heaven will be a second term for George W. Bush. Chris, USA Sources: 1. http://www.campaigndesk.org/archives/001000.asp 2. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040317/325/eotq9.html 3. http://www.christiansciencemonitor.com/2004/1001/p09s02-cods.html 4. http://www.publicagenda.org/aboutpa/pdfs/yankelovich_terrorism.pdf

Response:

Chris, While on a much grander scale, the reasoning isn’t all that different from research on children who were spanked.  They have an increased likelihood to demonstrate antisocial and violent behavior, towards peers and siblings as children and towards society as adults.  After all, "If my parents can do it, why shouldn’t I do it to?" LaVonne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >    The continuing pattern of US violation of international laws to which > it is a solemn signatory, such as Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva > Convention, not only shames all Americans in the eyes of the world, it > emboldens human rights violators the world over.  "See?" they can argue, > "The USA does it so why shouldn’t I do it too?" > Chris, USA > Memo Lets CIA Take Detainees Out of Iraq > Sun Oct 24, 8:21 AM ET > By Dana Priest, Washington Post Staff Writer > At the request of the CIA, the Justice Department drafted a confidential > memo that authorizes the agency to transfer detainees out of Iraq for > interrogation — a practice that international legal specialists say > contravenes the Geneva Conventions. > One intelligence official familiar with the operation said the CIA has > used the March draft memo as legal support for secretly transporting as > many as a dozen detainees out of Iraq in the last six months. The agency > has concealed the detainees from the International Committee of the Red > Cross and other authorities, the official said. > The draft opinion, written by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal > Counsel and dated March 19, 2004, refers to both Iraqi citizens and > foreigners in Iraq, who the memo says are protected by the treaty. It > permits the CIA to take Iraqis out of the country to be interrogated for a > "brief but not indefinite period." It also says the CIA can permanently > remove persons deemed to be "illegal aliens" under "local immigration > law." > Some specialists in international law say the opinion amounts to a > reinterpretation of one of the most basic rights of Article 49 of the > Fourth Geneva Convention, which protects civilians during wartime and > occupation, including insurgents who were not part of Iraq’s military. > The treaty prohibits the "[i]ndividual or mass forcible transfers, as well > as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory . . . > regardless of their motive." > The 1949 treaty notes that a violation of this particular provision > constitutes a "grave breach" of the accord, and thus a "war crime" under > U.S. federal law, according to a footnote in the Justice Department draft. > "For these reasons," the footnote reads, "we recommend that any > contemplated relocations of ‘protected persons’ from Iraq to facilitate > interrogation be carefully evaluated for compliance with Article 49 on a > case by case basis." It says that even persons removed from Iraq retain > the treaty’s protections, which would include humane treatment and access > to international monitors. > During the war in Afghanistan, the administration ruled that al Qaeda > fighters were not considered "protected persons" under the convention. > Many of them were transferred out of the country to the naval base in > Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and elsewhere for interrogations. By contrast, the > U.S. government deems former members of Saddam Hussein’s Baath Party and > military, as well as insurgents and other civilians in Iraq, to be > protected by the Geneva Conventions. > International law experts contacted for this article described the legal > reasoning contained in the Justice Department memo as unconventional and > disturbing. > "The overall thrust of the Convention is to keep from moving people out of > the country and out of the protection of the Convention," said former > senior military attorney Scott Silliman, executive director of Duke > University’s Center on Law, Ethics and National Security. "The memorandum > seeks to create a legal regime justifying conduct that the international > community clearly considers in violation of international law and the > Convention." Silliman reviewed the document at The Post’s request. > The CIA, Justice Department and the author of the draft opinion, Jack L. > Goldsmith, former director of the Office of Legal Counsel, declined to > comment for this article.

Response:

Sounds like fun……. Next time, eat a lot of beans before the trip and make sure you order a beer or two with every meal on the road. Stop using deodorant, mouthwash, soap. Always make them wait for you (be the last person back to the van) , and talk at length about some boring subject that no one would give a damn about. My drummer does that all the time and it drives me nuts. Jay S

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 5 of us ( 3 men, 2 women ) rented a 04 Chevy Venture this past weekend. > Went from Lubbock TX to Albuquerque New Mexico. We barely got over the > the speedlimit as the person driving didn’t want to get a ticket. 3 days > driving, No Police in sight. I didn’t drive the van, nor did anyone > else.  Limit was 70 in TX , 75 in New Mex. > There was plenty of room for legs in the second & third row rear seat. > It seemed to ride alright, Had a slight wind noise around the RF door > seal. Power everything, rear seat air & heat controls. > One bad thing was every time the hatch gate was lifted some piece of > luggage would fall out. The rear window doesn’t open on its own. > Dual Power Sliding doors were amazingly slow and very difficult to try > to slide open & close manually. I wasn’t allowed to open the hood to > look at the engine. I said to the driver we may need oil. He said, Its > not mine I don’t care if it blows up, they ( meaning National Car Rental > ) will have to come out & get us. > Lot of tension on this trip. > I couldn’t play the radio because the others wanted to " talk " the > whole trip. > Driver did turn it on to change the clock setting when we hit the > mountain time zone. I started pressing the seek button to see if it got > any stations in the middle of  the desert & it actually got quite a few. > I made a comment to that and the driver replied with a smart ass answer. > Then from the back, Shut That Off ! > Sitting up in front in the passenger seat, head pressed against the > windshield, you can’t see any hood.  Standard cloth seats was pretty > comfortable. Owners manual was still in the glove box, so I read up on > the AC / Heater controls to find out what all the picture symbols mean. > I can read an english word dash cluster , but have trouble with picture > symbol controls that are for the no speaka de english crowd. > We used one tank of gas,  the Driver wouldn’t tell me how many actual > miles we went so I couldn’t figure out what we got on  the gas mileage. > Driver said, who cares what the mileage is. I said, Well I’d like to > know ! An odd look from the driver came about when the other guy said , > Harryface always keeps track of the mileage & the gas on the trips we > take with the Bonneville.. > One woman ( the no talker ) said nothing to me the entire trip. > Driving through Alb Q we passed an exit for Martin Luther King Dr I read > the sign outloud in a slight accent.  I whispered to the other guy that > was with us, We in the "heart" of the city now. The no talker heard me > and angrily said, What’s that supposed to mean ?!!! > I said, Honey if you don’t know, I ain’t a gonna tell ya. Driver looked > over at me. > Well, 3 of the four will never be traveling with me again ! > At least we did stop to see the famed Cadillac Ranch in Amarillo. > Harryface > 1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE >  3800 V6 ( C ), Black/Slate Grey > _~_~_~280,033 miles_~_~_ > ~~~The Former Fleet ~~~ > 89 Cavalier Z 24 convertible > 78 Holiday 88 coupe > 68 LeSabre convertible > 73 Impala sedan

Response:

If you think all that is bad then you obviously haven’t spent a hour with my ex-wife in the passenger seat. It was so bad that I even felt sorry for the damn car!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 5 of us ( 3 men, 2 women ) rented a 04 Chevy Venture this past weekend. > Went from Lubbock TX to Albuquerque New Mexico. We barely got over the > the speedlimit as the person driving didn’t want to get a ticket. 3 days > driving, No Police in sight. I didn’t drive the van, nor did anyone > else.  Limit was 70 in TX , 75 in New Mex. > There was plenty of room for legs in the second & third row rear seat. > It seemed to ride alright, Had a slight wind noise around the RF door > seal. Power everything, rear seat air & heat controls. > One bad thing was every time the hatch gate was lifted some piece of > luggage would fall out. The rear window doesn’t open on its own. > Dual Power Sliding doors were amazingly slow and very difficult to try > to slide open & close manually. I wasn’t allowed to open the hood to > look at the engine. I said to the driver we may need oil. He said, Its > not mine I don’t care if it blows up, they ( meaning National Car Rental > ) will have to come out & get us. > Lot of tension on this trip. > I couldn’t play the radio because the others wanted to " talk " the > whole trip. > Driver did turn it on to change the clock setting when we hit the > mountain time zone. I started pressing the seek button to see if it got > any stations in the middle of  the desert & it actually got quite a few. > I made a comment to that and the driver replied with a smart ass answer. > Then from the back, Shut That Off ! > Sitting up in front in the passenger seat, head pressed against the > windshield, you can’t see any hood.  Standard cloth seats was pretty > comfortable. Owners manual was still in the glove box, so I read up on > the AC / Heater controls to find out what all the picture symbols mean. > I can read an english word dash cluster , but have trouble with picture > symbol controls that are for the no speaka de english crowd. > We used one tank of gas,  the Driver wouldn’t tell me how many actual > miles we went so I couldn’t figure out what we got on  the gas mileage. > Driver said, who cares what the mileage is. I said, Well I’d like to > know ! An odd look from the driver came about when the other guy said , > Harryface always keeps track of the mileage & the gas on the trips we > take with the Bonneville.. > One woman ( the no talker ) said nothing to me the entire trip. > Driving through Alb Q we passed an exit for Martin Luther King Dr I read > the sign outloud in a slight accent.  I whispered to the other guy that > was with us, We in the "heart" of the city now. The no talker heard me > and angrily said, What’s that supposed to mean ?!!! > I said, Honey if you don’t know, I ain’t a gonna tell ya. Driver looked > over at me. > Well, 3 of the four will never be traveling with me again ! > At least we did stop to see the famed Cadillac Ranch in Amarillo. > Harryface > 1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE >  3800 V6 ( C ), Black/Slate Grey > _~_~_~280,033 miles_~_~_ > ~~~The Former Fleet ~~~ > 89 Cavalier Z 24 convertible > 78 Holiday 88 coupe > 68 LeSabre convertible > 73 Impala sedan

Response:

>>I wasn’t allowed to open the hood to look at the engine. I said to the >>

driver we may need oil.  He said, Its not mine I don’t care if it >blows up,

What a complete and utter asshole.  Not letting you check out the 3400 or the oil.  I always check the oil and radiator level and tranny fluid level in rental cars for several reasons.  I respect the machinery and don’t want to blow up a $3000 engine (keeps rental rates lower that way) plus I like to know that the vehicle I’m in isn’t going to blow up and leave me stranded out in the middle of nowhere. >We used one tank of gas,  the Driver wouldn’t tell me how many actual >miles we went so I couldn’t figure out what we got on  the gas

I ahve a ‘99 Venture.  It has a 20 gallon tank and will get 25mpg highway so a range of about 500 miles per tank.  You should have told this guy off, what a jerk.  Life’s too short to allow assholes like this to disrespect you and not get verbally spanked for it. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

4 against one, yep everyone else is crazy. Sounds like there is more to your problem than you are letting on. Sounds like a revolting juvenile.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I wasn’t allowed to open the hood to look at the engine. I said to the > driver we may need oil.  He said, Its not mine I don’t care if it >>blows up, > What a complete and utter asshole.  Not letting you check out the 3400 or > the oil.  I always check the oil and radiator level and tranny fluid level > in rental cars for several reasons.  I respect the machinery and don’t want > to blow up a $3000 engine (keeps rental rates lower that way) plus I like > to know that the vehicle I’m in isn’t going to blow up and leave me > stranded out in the middle of nowhere. >>We used one tank of gas,  the Driver wouldn’t tell me how many actual >>miles we went so I couldn’t figure out what we got on  the gas > I ahve a ‘99 Venture.  It has a 20 gallon tank and will get 25mpg highway > so a range of about 500 miles per tank.  You should have told this guy off, > what a jerk.  Life’s too short to allow assholes like this to disrespect > you and not get verbally spanked for it. > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

    I have had road trips like those. It sucks.  The worst one was when I got sent on a resque mission. A counsin of a good freind was stuck way out in PA. Her Caravan had an engine fire, she had no insurance. My firend couldn’t get away from work to go get her. Or that was his excuse. So he offers to rent me a Car,  and pay me for my trouble.     Im thinking Road Trip, plus $300 for doing it. Kewl!! The car was a nice one from Avis, a 1999 Bonniville SSE.  With 22K miles, yet in very impressive condishion.  Dark Charcoal cloth seats, silver exterier,  16 inch wheels, fog lights, In-dash CD player.     On the way out, which took 9 hours, I pegged it out on a lonely streach of  PA highway. 120 and smoth as a baby’s backside. Music cranked, front windows down, fog lights on. Rockin thru  the night.     The Return trip sucked. My friend did tell me she had 5 kids, hince a car that seated six. He also told me she would probably fill the trunk. He didn’t tell me all 5 kids were monsters, and theiir mother a large, mean, big mouth who’s idea of parenting is yelling as loud as possible.     Not only did the trunk get stuffed to capasity. She piled so much  in the car, the kids were sitting on stacks of blankets like booster seats. I did make them buckle up. That caused her to yell for 50 miles.     Ever time I got doing the speed limit she would freak out and insist I was speeding. The kids constantly were yelling. She put rap on (I dislike that music). So I have 5  yealling kids, 1 ugly bi**h that won’t shut up nagging me, and music I can tollerate on the radio. The return trip was 14 hours of hell.     On the plus side, I  liked the car so much, I rented it for an aditional 2 days, out of my own money. I did look under the hood, and the car looked to have been well kept. I asked at AVIS about buying it when turned in. Unforchantly I didn’t get the oppertunity. I was really impressed with that car. Even more then with my 1993 Park Ave that I had at the time. Charles

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 5 of us ( 3 men, 2 women ) rented a 04 Chevy Venture this past weekend. > Went from Lubbock TX to Albuquerque New Mexico. We barely got over the > the speedlimit as the person driving didn’t want to get a ticket. 3 days > driving, No Police in sight. I didn’t drive the van, nor did anyone > else.  Limit was 70 in TX , 75 in New Mex. > There was plenty of room for legs in the second & third row rear seat. > It seemed to ride alright, Had a slight wind noise around the RF door > seal. Power everything, rear seat air & heat controls. > One bad thing was every time the hatch gate was lifted some piece of > luggage would fall out. The rear window doesn’t open on its own. > Dual Power Sliding doors were amazingly slow and very difficult to try > to slide open & close manually. I wasn’t allowed to open the hood to > look at the engine. I said to the driver we may need oil. He said, Its > not mine I don’t care if it blows up, they ( meaning National Car Rental > ) will have to come out & get us. > Lot of tension on this trip. > I couldn’t play the radio because the others wanted to " talk " the > whole trip. > Driver did turn it on to change the clock setting when we hit the > mountain time zone. I started pressing the seek button to see if it got > any stations in the middle of  the desert & it actually got quite a few. > I made a comment to that and the driver replied with a smart ass answer. > Then from the back, Shut That Off ! > Sitting up in front in the passenger seat, head pressed against the > windshield, you can’t see any hood.  Standard cloth seats was pretty > comfortable. Owners manual was still in the glove box, so I read up on > the AC / Heater controls to find out what all the picture symbols mean. > I can read an english word dash cluster , but have trouble with picture > symbol controls that are for the no speaka de english crowd. > We used one tank of gas,  the Driver wouldn’t tell me how many actual > miles we went so I couldn’t figure out what we got on  the gas mileage. > Driver said, who cares what the mileage is. I said, Well I’d like to > know ! An odd look from the driver came about when the other guy said , > Harryface always keeps track of the mileage & the gas on the trips we > take with the Bonneville.. > One woman ( the no talker ) said nothing to me the entire trip. > Driving through Alb Q we passed an exit for Martin Luther King Dr I read > the sign outloud in a slight accent.  I whispered to the other guy that > was with us, We in the "heart" of the city now. The no talker heard me > and angrily said, What’s that supposed to mean ?!!! > I said, Honey if you don’t know, I ain’t a gonna tell ya. Driver looked > over at me. > Well, 3 of the four will never be traveling with me again ! > At least we did stop to see the famed Cadillac Ranch in Amarillo. > Harryface > 1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE >  3800 V6 ( C ), Black/Slate Grey > _~_~_~280,033 miles_~_~_ > ~~~The Former Fleet ~~~ > 89 Cavalier Z 24 convertible > 78 Holiday 88 coupe > 68 LeSabre convertible > 73 Impala sedan

I would have kicked the drivers ass! Brian

Response:

> 5 of us ( 3 men, 2 women ) rented a 04 Chevy Venture this past weekend. > Went from Lubbock TX to Albuquerque New Mexico. We barely got over the > the speedlimit as the person driving didn’t want to get a ticket. 3 days > driving, No Police in sight. I didn’t drive the van, nor did anyone > else.  Limit was 70 in TX , 75 in New Mex.

Wow, sounds like you were taken away by the People In Black. If you ever come to Houston, let me know. You would enjoy traveling with me.  Windows down, ear plugs in, stereo up all the way.  Speed 100+, It’s easy to get used to. One spot in West Texas I was at 127 mph for several miles. I have to stop and look at rocks, caves, and senoritas though. Frost bit my ears climbing up the front face of El Capitan two winters ago.  Hey, What the boss does not know, I’m not about to tell. It’s all on company time. Next week I get to go back to DFW again.  Will rent a Ford Escape. Nice SUV.  Has a 6 cd changer.  Techno, Rave, Trance, Metal…

Response:

> 5 of us ( 3 men, 2 women ) rented a 04 Chevy Venture this past weekend. > Went from Lubbock TX to Albuquerque New Mexico. We barely got over the > the speedlimit as the person driving didn’t want to get a ticket. 3 days > driving, No Police in sight. I didn’t drive the van, nor did anyone > else.  Limit was 70 in TX , 75 in New Mex.

Ugh… > There was plenty of room for legs in the second & third row rear seat. > It seemed to ride alright, Had a slight wind noise around the RF door > seal. Power everything, rear seat air & heat controls.

The wind noise is really from the shape of the mirror, they should have put sport mirrors on it. > One bad thing was every time the hatch gate was lifted some piece of > luggage would fall out. The rear window doesn’t open on its own.

Yeah bad design, it should be like the Tahoe. > Dual Power Sliding doors were amazingly slow and very difficult to try > to slide open & close manually.

Yeah the manuals are easier to open and close, otherwise gotta rely on the power motors. >I wasn’t allowed to open the hood to > look at the engine. I said to the driver we may need oil. He said, Its > not mine I don’t care if it blows up, they ( meaning National Car Rental > ) will have to come out & get us.

Its a 3.4, the gearing is decent however so it has good pickup for a minivan… as for letting the motor blow up, yeah thats fun in the middle of nowhere, uhm NO. > Lot of tension on this trip. > I couldn’t play the radio because the others wanted to " talk " the > whole trip. > Driver did turn it on to change the clock setting when we hit the > mountain time zone. I started pressing the seek button to see if it got > any stations in the middle of  the desert & it actually got quite a few. > I made a comment to that and the driver replied with a smart ass answer. > Then from the back, Shut That Off !

What, no rear audio controls? > Sitting up in front in the passenger seat, head pressed against the > windshield, you can’t see any hood.  Standard cloth seats was pretty > comfortable. Owners manual was still in the glove box, so I read up on > the AC / Heater controls to find out what all the picture symbols mean. > I can read an english word dash cluster , but have trouble with picture > symbol controls that are for the no speaka de english crowd. > Well, 3 of the four will never be traveling with me again ! > At least we did stop to see the famed Cadillac Ranch in Amarillo.

I hate roadtrips with people who are annoying…

Response:

"Harry Face"  wrote > Well, 3 of the four will never be traveling with me again !

Good plan, sounds like you got a bunch of losers to travel with.  We traveled down to Spokane once years ago with another couple in the car.  Big mistake…never made it again. Ian

Response:

5 of us ( 3 men, 2 women ) rented a 04 Chevy Venture this past weekend. Went from Lubbock TX to Albuquerque New Mexico. We barely got over the the speedlimit as the person driving didn’t want to get a ticket. 3 days driving, No Police in sight. I didn’t drive the van, nor did anyone else.  Limit was 70 in TX , 75 in New Mex.   There was plenty of room for legs in the second & third row rear seat. It seemed to ride alright, Had a slight wind noise around the RF door seal. Power everything, rear seat air & heat controls. One bad thing was every time the hatch gate was lifted some piece of luggage would fall out. The rear window doesn’t open on its own. Dual Power Sliding doors were amazingly slow and very difficult to try to slide open & close manually. I wasn’t allowed to open the hood to look at the engine. I said to the driver we may need oil. He said, Its not mine I don’t care if it blows up, they ( meaning National Car Rental ) will have to come out & get us. Lot of tension on this trip. I couldn’t play the radio because the others wanted to " talk " the whole trip. Driver did turn it on to change the clock setting when we hit the mountain time zone. I started pressing the seek button to see if it got any stations in the middle of  the desert & it actually got quite a few. I made a comment to that and the driver replied with a smart ass answer. Then from the back, Shut That Off ! Sitting up in front in the passenger seat, head pressed against the windshield, you can’t see any hood.  Standard cloth seats was pretty comfortable. Owners manual was still in the glove box, so I read up on the AC / Heater controls to find out what all the picture symbols mean. I can read an english word dash cluster , but have trouble with picture symbol controls that are for the no speaka de english crowd. We used one tank of gas,  the Driver wouldn’t tell me how many actual miles we went so I couldn’t figure out what we got on  the gas mileage. Driver said, who cares what the mileage is. I said, Well I’d like to know ! An odd look from the driver came about when the other guy said , Harryface always keeps track of the mileage & the gas on the trips we take with the Bonneville.. One woman ( the no talker ) said nothing to me the entire trip. Driving through Alb Q we passed an exit for Martin Luther King Dr I read the sign outloud in a slight accent.  I whispered to the other guy that was with us, We in the "heart" of the city now. The no talker heard me and angrily said, What’s that supposed to mean ?!!!   I said, Honey if you don’t know, I ain’t a gonna tell ya. Driver looked over at me. Well, 3 of the four will never be traveling with me again ! At least we did stop to see the famed Cadillac Ranch in Amarillo. Harryface       1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE  3800 V6 ( C ), Black/Slate Grey _~_~_~280,033 miles_~_~_           ~~~The Former Fleet ~~~ 89 Cavalier Z 24 convertible 78 Holiday 88 coupe 68 LeSabre convertible 73 Impala sedan

Response:

i have a problem with my check engine light on my 2002 cavalier is their any way to read the codes without the scanner.

Response:

NO.

> i have a problem with my check engine light on my 2002 cavalier is their > any way to read the codes without the scanner.

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

If you have an Autozone around you they usually read the code for you for free. I take it you are out of warranty….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> i have a problem with my check engine light on my 2002 cavalier is their > any way to read the codes without the scanner.

Response:

i’m about to buy a 1999 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer V6 (SOHC) in wedgewood blue, its a 2wd with ever option but the V8, questions are: what do u usually get in milage i’ve heard around 21 from owners, and also whats the size of the gas tank? i’m 16 and this is my first car and i’m totally in love with the explorer, it better keep on running unlike our 1998 5.9 Limited Jeep that had tranny failures 2 days after we bought it

Response:

Considering your 16 and this is your first car, you wont get near 21. Mayb 20 on the highway. I got my 96 Sport in 99 and have never gotten better than 20. I do drive it hard but in the city its usually 16-18 mpg. The SOHC is a much more powerful motor so yours will vary.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> i’m about to buy a 1999 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer V6 (SOHC) in wedgewood blue, > its a 2wd with ever option but the V8, questions are: what do u usually get in > milage i’ve heard around 21 from owners, and also whats the size of the gas > tank? i’m 16 and this is my first car and i’m totally in love with the > explorer, it better keep on running unlike our 1998 5.9 Limited Jeep that had > tranny failures 2 days after we bought it

Response:

Ya, well so far, your comments seem overly centered on me, and draw attention away from Stacy and the problem with her son. I also get the sense that this is pretty much par for the course for her. This will not be the first time she asks for help, only to find her case misdirected, or usurped by someone who finds a third party more interesting than Stacy and her problem. It is so not my intent to turn her thread into a relative comparison of how much can be garnered from initial questions. I counted. Four of your responses are about me. ONE addresses Stacy. That’s not right. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Here is the OP again.  Please note that the OPer didn’t go into much > > detail, including what has been done to deal with the situation. > > Without more information, there is no way that you or anyone else can > > make a judgement call such as you have done. > Really?  What part of it? > How about, "This is a very vulnerable, troubled little child. He’s only > barely making it now.", from the following post: > > > Yes but take care of the problem before it gets bad enough to HAVE hold > > the > > > child back > > "Hold back".  What does that even mean?  From public school???  This is a > > very vulnerable, troubled little child. He’s only barely making it now. > Where did the OPer state that in her OP? > > > > My 5 year old keeps stealing and i am at my wits end i need advice on > > > > how to dicipline him i feel like i have done all i can but i could use > > > > soe different opinions he steals money from people while thet are not > > > > paying attention also candy gum any thing he wants and his responce to > > > > dicipline is not good he is hyperactive and cant remember what was > said > > > > 5 minute ago he wil be starting Kindergarten in the fall i dont want > him > > > > to take this habit with him any advice would be appreciated

Response:

> > Here is the OP again.  Please note that the OPer didn’t go into much > detail, including what has been done to deal with the situation. > Without more information, there is no way that you or anyone else can > make a judgement call such as you have done. > Really?  What part of it?

How about, "This is a very vulnerable, troubled little child. He’s only barely making it now.", from the following post: > > Yes but take care of the problem before it gets bad enough to HAVE hold > the > > child back > "Hold back".  What does that even mean?  From public school???  This is a > very vulnerable, troubled little child. He’s only barely making it now.

Where did the OPer state that in her OP? > > > My 5 year old keeps stealing and i am at my wits end i need advice on > > > how to dicipline him i feel like i have done all i can but i could use > > > soe different opinions he steals money from people while thet are not > > > paying attention also candy gum any thing he wants and his responce to > > > dicipline is not good he is hyperactive and cant remember what was > said > > > 5 minute ago he wil be starting Kindergarten in the fall i dont want > him > > > to take this habit with him any advice would be appreciated

– Kitten = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I’m a bitch, I’m a lover; I’m a child, I’m a mother I’m a sinner, I’m a saint; I do not feel ashamed I’m your hell, I’m you dream; I’m nothing in between You know you wouldn’t want it any other way                                                                       – – - Meredith Brooks

Response:

I will address some of your comments privately, as they have grown off topic for this group.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > As far as my background……I was adopted at 3 days old, so you’re > right > on > > that one, I wasn’t raised by my biological mother, however I DO have a > > mother, and she was there with me at home, the entire time I was growing > up. > > She tried to raise me right, but at the same time didn’t let me have my > > independance nor encourage me no matter what it was that I did….and > she’s > > still like that to this day. > Ok, thank you for filling in a bit of your background. It was kind of you > to > say. I bet you were a handful too. You were lucky to have a mom to look > after you, although it strikes me that you and she liked to butt heads…a > lot. > ~~~ > Yes, I was quite a handful!  to say the least!  : )    And still am…but > that doesn’t mean that I’m a ‘bad’ person, or so I’m made out to be…in her > eyes.  And you are quite right in saying that we butted heads…. we didn’t > necessarily ‘like’ it, but we did…and still do…so I choose to speak to > her when I want to talk to her, and choose to end the conversation if it is > going in that dreaded, guilt-ridden direction.  I was raised feeling guilty > for every damn thing I did…..whatever it was….bad or not. > Elaine, I only wish I could explain to you in real words, instead of ‘type’, > how this woman is…you may understand more where I’m coming from and the > reasons why I feel the way I do.  It’s a wonder I have any confidence left > at all.  And I do have confidence….I’m just still at the point in my life > where I’m trying to figure out who I am and what life’s all > ~~~ >  That does, in NO way, mean that I plan on > > raising my child in that same manner.  Nor to I exemplify that to my > child. > > That’s the main reason I’m looking for guidance. > …I refuse to raise my son > > with the same belief system she had with me and if there’s a way to get > > feedback from a diverse crowd the I’m all about it.  My mother thought > that > > being overly-strict and whipping my ass every chance she got was the > most > > effective way to ‘deal’ with me….not to mention her views that if > you’re > > not Catholic then you’re going to hell. > > Yea, I’ve had a lot to ‘deal’ with myself growing up, but I think I’ve > come > > a long way and overcome more obstacles than you can even imaging….and > it’s > > all happened since I’ve moved 2 states away from my mother.  I want a > strong > > bond with my child, not one like the one I have with my mother.  Don’t > get > > me wrong, I still love and respect her (the best I can), and nothing > changes > > the way she is as a person.  I don’t want to be that kind of person and > at > > least I’m still young enough to recognize it and make a change…..for > the > > better. > > Is it everything you had dreamed and then some, Elaine? > As I said…it was kind of you to say.  Do you know anything of your bio > parents? > ~~~ > Yes, I do.  I met my biological mother for the first time when my son was 6 > months old and she is an incredible lady!  She tried contacting me when I > was 18 but that didn’t fly with my ‘parents’ (non-biological one’s that is). > They were dead set on believing, back in ‘73, that those adoption records > were CLOSED.  Then, when I was 18, they received a call from a social > worker.  I came home and my mother was in tears.  I asked what was wrong and > she said that she was just thinking of her mother, who had passed on a few > years prior.  Well, I come home again from school a few days later and the > same thing…..she again said that she was sad because she was thinking of > her mother. > I picked up the paper and read multiple stories regarding adoption.  It was > pretty crazy how it all came out in the open.  She watched me as I > read…..I looked at her….she looked at me with freight in her eyes…..I > read some more……looked at her again…..even more freight in her > eyes…..then I asked her.  I asked if anyone had ever tried contacting me > (meaning my biological mother).  She hesitated but told me yes.  I freaked! > I couldn’t believe it!  ’She’ actually wanted to get in touch with me!! It > was an AMAZING thought but I saw how much it hurt my mom, so I didn’t follow > up with the social worker.  The social worker was awful with my mother so I > ended up having a local attorney send a letter to the social worker, saying > that it wasn’t a good time….(at that time).  They never tried to get in > touch again. > Then, when I was pregnant with my son, I called that same attorney, got the > number for the social worker, and ended up getting in touch with her.  She > came down to Austin, with my half-brother and my half-sister, when my son > was 6 months old.  It was wonderful and we still keep in touch to this day. > I can only wonder about the person I would be had she have raised me. > But….I can’t think like that….I have to be the person I KNOW I can be > now……. > Misty > ~~~

Response:

> As far as my background……I was adopted at 3 days old, so you’re right on > that one, I wasn’t raised by my biological mother, however I DO have a > mother, and she was there with me at home, the entire time I was growing up. > She tried to raise me right, but at the same time didn’t let me have my > independance nor encourage me no matter what it was that I did….and she’s > still like that to this day.

Ok, thank you for filling in a bit of your background. It was kind of you to say. I bet you were a handful too. You were lucky to have a mom to look after you, although it strikes me that you and she liked to butt heads…a lot.  That does, in NO way, mean that I plan on > raising my child in that same manner.  Nor to I exemplify that to my child. > That’s the main reason I’m looking for guidance.

…I refuse to raise my son – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> with the same belief system she had with me and if there’s a way to get > feedback from a diverse crowd the I’m all about it.  My mother thought that > being overly-strict and whipping my ass every chance she got was the most > effective way to ‘deal’ with me….not to mention her views that if you’re > not Catholic then you’re going to hell. > Yea, I’ve had a lot to ‘deal’ with myself growing up, but I think I’ve come > a long way and overcome more obstacles than you can even imaging….and it’s > all happened since I’ve moved 2 states away from my mother.  I want a strong > bond with my child, not one like the one I have with my mother.  Don’t get > me wrong, I still love and respect her (the best I can), and nothing changes > the way she is as a person.  I don’t want to be that kind of person and at > least I’m still young enough to recognize it and make a change…..for the > better. > Is it everything you had dreamed and then some, Elaine?

As I said…it was kind of you to say.  Do you know anything of your bio parents?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> As far as my background……I was adopted at 3 days old, so you’re right > on > that one, I wasn’t raised by my biological mother, however I DO have a > mother, and she was there with me at home, the entire time I was growing > up. > She tried to raise me right, but at the same time didn’t let me have my > independance nor encourage me no matter what it was that I did….and > she’s > still like that to this day. > Ok, thank you for filling in a bit of your background. It was kind of you to > say. I bet you were a handful too. You were lucky to have a mom to look > after you, although it strikes me that you and she liked to butt heads…a > lot.

~~~ Yes, I was quite a handful!  to say the least!  : )    And still am…but that doesn’t mean that I’m a ‘bad’ person, or so I’m made out to be…in her eyes.  And you are quite right in saying that we butted heads…. we didn’t necessarily ‘like’ it, but we did…and still do…so I choose to speak to her when I want to talk to her, and choose to end the conversation if it is going in that dreaded, guilt-ridden direction.  I was raised feeling guilty for every damn thing I did…..whatever it was….bad or not. Elaine, I only wish I could explain to you in real words, instead of ‘type’, how this woman is…you may understand more where I’m coming from and the reasons why I feel the way I do.  It’s a wonder I have any confidence left at all.  And I do have confidence….I’m just still at the point in my life where I’m trying to figure out who I am and what life’s all ~~~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  That does, in NO way, mean that I plan on > raising my child in that same manner.  Nor to I exemplify that to my > child. > That’s the main reason I’m looking for guidance. > …I refuse to raise my son > with the same belief system she had with me and if there’s a way to get > feedback from a diverse crowd the I’m all about it.  My mother thought > that > being overly-strict and whipping my ass every chance she got was the most > effective way to ‘deal’ with me….not to mention her views that if you’re > not Catholic then you’re going to hell. > Yea, I’ve had a lot to ‘deal’ with myself growing up, but I think I’ve > come > a long way and overcome more obstacles than you can even imaging….and > it’s > all happened since I’ve moved 2 states away from my mother.  I want a > strong > bond with my child, not one like the one I have with my mother.  Don’t get > me wrong, I still love and respect her (the best I can), and nothing > changes > the way she is as a person.  I don’t want to be that kind of person and at > least I’m still young enough to recognize it and make a change…..for the > better. > Is it everything you had dreamed and then some, Elaine? > As I said…it was kind of you to say.  Do you know anything of your bio > parents?

~~~ Yes, I do.  I met my biological mother for the first time when my son was 6 months old and she is an incredible lady!  She tried contacting me when I was 18 but that didn’t fly with my ‘parents’ (non-biological one’s that is). They were dead set on believing, back in ‘73, that those adoption records were CLOSED.  Then, when I was 18, they received a call from a social worker.  I came home and my mother was in tears.  I asked what was wrong and she said that she was just thinking of her mother, who had passed on a few years prior.  Well, I come home again from school a few days later and the same thing…..she again said that she was sad because she was thinking of her mother. I picked up the paper and read multiple stories regarding adoption.  It was pretty crazy how it all came out in the open.  She watched me as I read…..I looked at her….she looked at me with freight in her eyes…..I read some more……looked at her again…..even more freight in her eyes…..then I asked her.  I asked if anyone had ever tried contacting me (meaning my biological mother).  She hesitated but told me yes.  I freaked! I couldn’t believe it!  ’She’ actually wanted to get in touch with me!!  It was an AMAZING thought but I saw how much it hurt my mom, so I didn’t follow up with the social worker.  The social worker was awful with my mother so I ended up having a local attorney send a letter to the social worker, saying that it wasn’t a good time….(at that time).  They never tried to get in touch again. Then, when I was pregnant with my son, I called that same attorney, got the number for the social worker, and ended up getting in touch with her.  She came down to Austin, with my half-brother and my half-sister, when my son was 6 months old.  It was wonderful and we still keep in touch to this day. I can only wonder about the person I would be had she have raised me. But….I can’t think like that….I have to be the person I KNOW I can be now……. Misty ~~~

Response:

there ya go Elaine….it was there before your retort…… nice attention to detail……

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ok, Miss Misty. > You think accurate interpretation of online questions is some big joke? No > legitimacy?  Ok, so I have one for you. > You have no mother. Your birth mother was not your custodial parent. What > is > your story? Who raised you? Tell everyone about your mother. > ~~~ > I dont’ think this is a big joke….I came in here originally for help, > didn’t I?  And I’ve realized that my situation with my son is completely > normal at this age and that I just need more confidence in my abilities as a > parent, which is something that I’m more than willing to work on.  And btw, > my son can’t wait to see me again….he loves his mommy for what I’ve, yes, > what I HAVE taught him…..he may not always listen but he’s a wonderful > child in every other way. > As far as my background……I was adopted at 3 days old, so you’re right on > that one, I wasn’t raised by my biological mother, however I DO have a > mother, and she was there with me at home, the entire time I was growing up. > She tried to raise me right, but at the same time didn’t let me have my > independance nor encourage me no matter what it was that I did….and she’s > still like that to this day.  That does, in NO way, mean that I plan on > raising my child in that same manner.  Nor to I exemplify that to my child. > That’s the main reason I’m looking for guidance….I refuse to raise my son > with the same belief system she had with me and if there’s a way to get > feedback from a diverse crowd the I’m all about it.  My mother thought that > being overly-strict and whipping my ass every chance she got was the most > effective way to ‘deal’ with me….not to mention her views that if you’re > not Catholic then you’re going to hell. > Yea, I’ve had a lot to ‘deal’ with myself growing up, but I think I’ve come > a long way and overcome more obstacles than you can even imaging….and it’s > all happened since I’ve moved 2 states away from my mother.  I want a strong > bond with my child, not one like the one I have with my mother.  Don’t get > me wrong, I still love and respect her (the best I can), and nothing changes > the way she is as a person.  I don’t want to be that kind of person and at > least I’m still young enough to recognize it and make a change…..for the > better. > Is it everything you had dreamed and then some, Elaine? > Misty > ~~~ > > > <snipped> > > > <snipped> > > > > > I have conserns that he will be a frustration to the teacher, and > she > > will > > > > > be too hard on him. Your son sounds very vulnerable. Find a way to > > make > > > > his > > > > > life easier not harder. This child doesn’t need any additional > stress > > in > > > > his > > > > > life, like starting school. > > > > ~~~ > > > > What’s that psychic hotline number? > > > > "Only $3.99 per minute and your child can have this enlightening, > > > > PRE-determined future too ……read from *real* tarrot cards, to > tell > > you > > > > how you’re child will be a ‘frustration’ to the teacher, and ’she’ > will > > be > child > > > > is…..and how not to give him ‘additional stress’ by putting him in > > school > > YOUR’S, > > > > today! > > futureless > > > > reading for your child is only moments away!  Dont’ miss the > opportunity > > to > > > > hear this from a *real live psychic*.  Miss Cleo, I mean, Elaine, is > > > > anxiously awaiting your call!" > > > > ahem….just my take…… > > > LOL… I love it, Misty!!  Nice call. > > ~~~ > > ; P   —  knew it wasn’t just me thinking that was garbage! > > Peace….. > > Misty > > ~~~

Response:

forgive my typos on that last post….in a hurry had to make an appt. anyhoo…..talk on…..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ok, Miss Misty. > You think accurate interpretation of online questions is some big joke? No > legitimacy?  Ok, so I have one for you. > You have no mother. Your birth mother was not your custodial parent. What > is > your story? Who raised you? Tell everyone about your mother. > ~~~ > I dont’ think this is a big joke….I came in here originally for help, > didn’t I?  And I’ve realized that my situation with my son is completely > normal at this age and that I just need more confidence in my abilities as a > parent, which is something that I’m more than willing to work on.  And btw, > my son can’t wait to see me again….he loves his mommy for what I’ve, yes, > what I HAVE taught him…..he may not always listen but he’s a wonderful > child in every other way. > As far as my background……I was adopted at 3 days old, so you’re right on > that one, I wasn’t raised by my biological mother, however I DO have a > mother, and she was there with me at home, the entire time I was growing up. > She tried to raise me right, but at the same time didn’t let me have my > independance nor encourage me no matter what it was that I did….and she’s > still like that to this day.  That does, in NO way, mean that I plan on > raising my child in that same manner.  Nor to I exemplify that to my child. > That’s the main reason I’m looking for guidance….I refuse to raise my son > with the same belief system she had with me and if there’s a way to get > feedback from a diverse crowd the I’m all about it.  My mother thought that > being overly-strict and whipping my ass every chance she got was the most > effective way to ‘deal’ with me….not to mention her views that if you’re > not Catholic then you’re going to hell. > Yea, I’ve had a lot to ‘deal’ with myself growing up, but I think I’ve come > a long way and overcome more obstacles than you can even imaging….and it’s > all happened since I’ve moved 2 states away from my mother.  I want a strong > bond with my child, not one like the one I have with my mother.  Don’t get > me wrong, I still love and respect her (the best I can), and nothing changes > the way she is as a person.  I don’t want to be that kind of person and at > least I’m still young enough to recognize it and make a change…..for the > better. > Is it everything you had dreamed and then some, Elaine? > Misty > ~~~ > > > <snipped> > > > <snipped> > > > > > I have conserns that he will be a frustration to the teacher, and > she > > will > > > > > be too hard on him. Your son sounds very vulnerable. Find a way to > > make > > > > his > > > > > life easier not harder. This child doesn’t need any additional > stress > > in > > > > his > > > > > life, like starting school. > > > > ~~~ > > > > What’s that psychic hotline number? > > > > "Only $3.99 per minute and your child can have this enlightening, > > > > PRE-determined future too ……read from *real* tarrot cards, to > tell > > you > > > > how you’re child will be a ‘frustration’ to the teacher, and ’she’ > will > > be > child > > > > is…..and how not to give him ‘additional stress’ by putting him in > > school > > YOUR’S, > > > > today! > > futureless > > > > reading for your child is only moments away!  Dont’ miss the > opportunity > > to > > > > hear this from a *real live psychic*.  Miss Cleo, I mean, Elaine, is > > > > anxiously awaiting your call!" > > > > ahem….just my take…… > > > LOL… I love it, Misty!!  Nice call. > > ~~~ > > ; P   —  knew it wasn’t just me thinking that was garbage! > > Peace….. > > Misty > > ~~~

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Yes but take care of the problem before it gets bad enough to HAVE hold > the > > child back > "Hold back".  What does that even mean?  From public school???  This is a > very vulnerable, troubled little child. He’s only barely making it now. > YOUR biggest consern is his gratuation date from public school? What the > heck difference does it make how fast or how soon he gets through public > school? > ~~~ > First off, how do you even know that this parent plans

Seriously. You’re fairly new here. It would be nice to hear some of your background  and how you got to where you are today. You were going to tell everyone about your mother….

Response:

> Ok, Miss Misty. > You think accurate interpretation of online questions is some big joke? No > legitimacy?  Ok, so I have one for you. > You have no mother. Your birth mother was not your custodial parent. What is > your story? Who raised you? Tell everyone about your mother.

~~~ I dont’ think this is a big joke….I came in here originally for help, didn’t I?  And I’ve realized that my situation with my son is completely normal at this age and that I just need more confidence in my abilities as a parent, which is something that I’m more than willing to work on.  And btw, my son can’t wait to see me again….he loves his mommy for what I’ve, yes, what I HAVE taught him…..he may not always listen but he’s a wonderful child in every other way. As far as my background……I was adopted at 3 days old, so you’re right on that one, I wasn’t raised by my biological mother, however I DO have a mother, and she was there with me at home, the entire time I was growing up. She tried to raise me right, but at the same time didn’t let me have my independance nor encourage me no matter what it was that I did….and she’s still like that to this day.  That does, in NO way, mean that I plan on raising my child in that same manner.  Nor to I exemplify that to my child. That’s the main reason I’m looking for guidance….I refuse to raise my son with the same belief system she had with me and if there’s a way to get feedback from a diverse crowd the I’m all about it.  My mother thought that being overly-strict and whipping my ass every chance she got was the most effective way to ‘deal’ with me….not to mention her views that if you’re not Catholic then you’re going to hell. Yea, I’ve had a lot to ‘deal’ with myself growing up, but I think I’ve come a long way and overcome more obstacles than you can even imaging….and it’s all happened since I’ve moved 2 states away from my mother.  I want a strong bond with my child, not one like the one I have with my mother.  Don’t get me wrong, I still love and respect her (the best I can), and nothing changes the way she is as a person.  I don’t want to be that kind of person and at least I’m still young enough to recognize it and make a change…..for the better. Is it everything you had dreamed and then some, Elaine? Misty ~~~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > <snipped> > > <snipped> > > > > I have conserns that he will be a frustration to the teacher, and > she > will > > > > be too hard on him. Your son sounds very vulnerable. Find a way to > make > > > his > > > > life easier not harder. This child doesn’t need any additional > stress > in > > > his > > > > life, like starting school. > > > ~~~ > > > What’s that psychic hotline number? > > > "Only $3.99 per minute and your child can have this enlightening, > > > PRE-determined future too ……read from *real* tarrot cards, to tell > you > > > how you’re child will be a ‘frustration’ to the teacher, and ’she’ > will > be child > > > is…..and how not to give him ‘additional stress’ by putting him in > school > YOUR’S, > > > today! > futureless > > > reading for your child is only moments away!  Dont’ miss the > opportunity > to > > > hear this from a *real live psychic*.  Miss Cleo, I mean, Elaine, is > > > anxiously awaiting your call!" > > > ahem….just my take…… > > LOL… I love it, Misty!!  Nice call. > ~~~ > ; P   —  knew it wasn’t just me thinking that was garbage! > Peace….. > Misty > ~~~

Response:

> Here is the OP again.  Please note that the OPer didn’t go into much > detail, including what has been done to deal with the situation. > Without more information, there is no way that you or anyone else can > make a judgement call such as you have done.

Really?  What part of it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > My 5 year old keeps stealing and i am at my wits end i need advice on > > how to dicipline him i feel like i have done all i can but i could use > > soe different opinions he steals money from people while thet are not > > paying attention also candy gum any thing he wants and his responce to > > dicipline is not good he is hyperactive and cant remember what was said > > 5 minute ago he wil be starting Kindergarten in the fall i dont want him > > to take this habit with him any advice would be appreciated > — > Kitten > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > I’m a bitch, I’m a lover; I’m a child, I’m a mother > I’m a sinner, I’m a saint; I do not feel ashamed > I’m your hell, I’m you dream; I’m nothing in between > You know you wouldn’t want it any other way >                                                                       – > – - Meredith Brooks

Response:

> Yes but take care of the problem before it gets bad enough to HAVE hold > the > child back > "Hold back".  What does that even mean?  From public school???  This is a > very vulnerable, troubled little child. He’s only barely making it now. > YOUR biggest consern is his gratuation date from public school? What the > heck difference does it make how fast or how soon he gets through public > school?

~~~ First off, how do you even know that this parent plans on putting this child in ‘public school’…we have not established that from the original comment and I find your speculation about this situation disturbing.  IF you could spell the word concern properly, I would explain further on MY biggest concern.  Which, for the OP’s info, isn’t to tell this person that thier child is doomed (so to speak from what I’m gathering from your feedback), before knowing the whole situation.  You have no right to judge this child’s outcome, nor, speculate as you have done thusfar. From what I’ve heard, you don’t even have children of your own so how can you come in here with your self-righteous self and give advice in the first place? ~~~ > I seriously find your priorities to be short sighted at best, ignorant to > the point of cruelty springs to mind as well.

~~~ You, madam, have NO idea what MY priorities are!  ’Ignorant to the point of cruelty’…..now that’s an educated statement. Misty ~~~

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > Yes but take care of the problem before it gets bad enough to HAVE > hold > > the > > > child back > > "Hold back".  What does that even mean?  From public school???  This is > a > > very vulnerable, troubled little child. He’s only barely making it now. > I don’t recall the OPer saying that the child is "barely making it > now". > This boy should be tested by a qualified child psychologist. > It seems to me that you’re blowing things way out of proportion. > It is not at all clear why you would say that. I can only guess it’s for > reasons of your own. I don’t know you well enough to comment on your > motivations.

Here is the OP again.  Please note that the OPer didn’t go into much detail, including what has been done to deal with the situation. Without more information, there is no way that you or anyone else can make a judgement call such as you have done. > My 5 year old keeps stealing and i am at my wits end i need advice on > how to dicipline him i feel like i have done all i can but i could use > soe different opinions he steals money from people while thet are not > paying attention also candy gum any thing he wants and his responce to > dicipline is not good he is hyperactive and cant remember what was said > 5 minute ago he wil be starting Kindergarten in the fall i dont want him > to take this habit with him any advice would be appreciated

– Kitten = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I’m a bitch, I’m a lover; I’m a child, I’m a mother I’m a sinner, I’m a saint; I do not feel ashamed I’m your hell, I’m you dream; I’m nothing in between You know you wouldn’t want it any other way                                                                       – – - Meredith Brooks

Response:

> > > Yes but take care of the problem before it gets bad enough to HAVE hold > the > > child back > "Hold back".  What does that even mean?  From public school???  This is a > very vulnerable, troubled little child. He’s only barely making it now. > I don’t recall the OPer saying that the child is "barely making it > now".

This boy should be tested by a qualified child psychologist. > It seems to me that you’re blowing things way out of proportion.

It is not at all clear why you would say that. I can only guess it’s for reasons of your own. I don’t know you well enough to comment on your motivations.

Response:

> Yes but take care of the problem before it gets bad enough to HAVE hold the > child back

"Hold back".  What does that even mean?  From public school???  This is a very vulnerable, troubled little child. He’s only barely making it now. YOUR biggest consern is his gratuation date from public school? What the heck difference does it make how fast or how soon he gets through public school? I seriously find your priorities to be short sighted at best, ignorant to the point of cruelty springs to mind as well.

Response:

> > Yes but take care of the problem before it gets bad enough to HAVE hold > the > child back > "Hold back".  What does that even mean?  From public school???  This is a > very vulnerable, troubled little child. He’s only barely making it now.

I don’t recall the OPer saying that the child is "barely making it now".  It seems to me that you’re blowing things way out of proportion. — Kitten = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I’m a bitch, I’m a lover; I’m a child, I’m a mother I’m a sinner, I’m a saint; I do not feel ashamed I’m your hell, I’m you dream; I’m nothing in between You know you wouldn’t want it any other way                                                                       – – - Meredith Brooks

Response:

Ok, Miss Misty. You think accurate interpretation of online questions is some big joke? No legitimacy?  Ok, so I have one for you. You have no mother. Your birth mother was not your custodial parent. What is your story? Who raised you? Tell everyone about your mother.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> <snipped> > <snipped> > > > I have conserns that he will be a frustration to the teacher, and she > will > > > be too hard on him. Your son sounds very vulnerable. Find a way to > make > > his > > > life easier not harder. This child doesn’t need any additional stress > in > > his > > > life, like starting school. > > ~~~ > > What’s that psychic hotline number? > > "Only $3.99 per minute and your child can have this enlightening, > > PRE-determined future too ……read from *real* tarrot cards, to tell > you > > how you’re child will be a ‘frustration’ to the teacher, and ’she’ will > be > > is…..and how not to give him ‘additional stress’ by putting him in > school > YOUR’S, > > today! > futureless > > reading for your child is only moments away!  Dont’ miss the opportunity > to > > hear this from a *real live psychic*.  Miss Cleo, I mean, Elaine, is > > anxiously awaiting your call!" > > ahem….just my take…… > LOL… I love it, Misty!!  Nice call. > ~~~ > ; P   —  knew it wasn’t just me thinking that was garbage! > Peace….. > Misty > ~~~

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ~~~ > What’s that psychic hotline number? > "Only $3.99 per minute and your child can have this enlightening, > PRE-determined future too ……read from *real* tarrot cards, to tell you > how you’re child will be a ‘frustration’ to the teacher, and ’she’ will be > is…..and how not to give him ‘additional stress’ by putting him in school YOUR’S, > today! futureless > reading for your child is only moments away!  Dont’ miss the opportunity to > hear this from a *real live psychic*.  Miss Cleo, I mean, Elaine, is > anxiously awaiting your call!" > ahem….just my take…… > Good luck Stacy.    : ) > You may think it’s one big joke, but some kids shouldn’t go > to kindergarten at age 5.  This sounds like an appropriate > situation where the parent might want to reevaluate the > importance of going to school just because he is at an age > the State has picked out of the air. >

Which part of "off topic" in the subject was not understood? Cripes– it’s not like there’s not a TON of spam and porn sites being posted to the group already. At least this is people talking.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can’t you people take this discussion, argument, opinions to one of > the other 5,000 religious, parenting, etc.. whatever newsgroups out > there??  Really now, this is an automotive newsgroup, otherwise you’ll > get others out here wanting to discuss the finer points of Janet > Jackson’s wardrobe choices also…  Man! >I don’t know Jebus. >Your comment shows, however, how unaware you are of what is going on around >you. >Snowman message >> Yeah Jebus will solve everything. >> What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was >piss-poor >> parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect. >> > >>Columbine update >> <religious psycho-babble snipped>

Response:

WHEW!!!   I wasn’t going to respond to this but I had to put my two cents in.  I’ve been an athiest, an agnostic and a christian and I can tell you the Christian part actually works.  I base my opinion on two things.  The first is personal experience.  I was lying in a burn unit years ago with little chance of survival and I had what one would call a "religious expeience" but failed to recognize it until almost 23 years later – it was significant.  I can tell you that after this happened, my condition improved significantly very quickly. The second was when I did research and discovered that people that used prayer or were prayed for by others (even without their knowledge) faired better and healed faster than those who did not pray or were not prayed for.  That being said, I shuld mention that I’m not a religious zealot and I have a different view of some of the events mentioned in the bible than most people.  Nuf said.  Rich B

Response:

"burntkat IS AT comcast.net"  wrote > I do not fear nor seek to destroy any particula way– I just happen to be > able to see the absolutel hypocracy in ALL forms of organized religion. To > not put too fine a point on it, I’m something of a student of religions, > see. The problem in that equation is the human condition. Give someone a way > to seize power, and they will. It is the rare individual who can resist > this, and they are more than outweighed by the masses who can’t resist.

Organized religion doesn’t have a monopoly on the type of behaviour you are describing.  You rightly say "the human condition is the problem in the equation".  The big problem is that organized religions claims are often so high, that the hypocrisy is very obvious. But really, religious or non-religious…the vast majority of us are very hypocritical. What hypocrisy can’t change is whether the message of a particular religion (which may be from "outside" the human condition) is true or not.  The followers often are very poor examples of what was originally intended…but in Christianity, if you understand the theology of it….this is really to be expected and should hardly be considered abnormal.  > Why is it whenever you try to discuss things like this with "true believers" > they imediately think you’re out to tear them down? Sorry– that’s been done > well enough by Christianity, during the Crusades and even the modern day > with Missionaries <we’ll build you a water well, but you have to convert to > our narrow-minded view first>.

I can tell you from personal experience….(my parents were missionaries, and I grew up with them overseas) that not all missionaries spread the "good news" in this way, with strings attached.  Sure, there is lots of bad stuff happening, but again….it’s usually "bad" people that carry out those bad acts….which…if you understand the theology and structure of a religion, can’t really be reconciled with the intent of the religion. I do happen to agree with you, prayer has its place, but some good honest parenting goes a lot further when bringing up your children. Both have their place, but the good parenting has got to be in place first. Ian

Response:

good points, Ian! Snowman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "burntkat IS AT comcast.net"  wrote > I do not fear nor seek to destroy any particula way– I just happen to be > able to see the absolutel hypocracy in ALL forms of organized religion. To > not put too fine a point on it, I’m something of a student of religions, > see. The problem in that equation is the human condition. Give someone a > way > to seize power, and they will. It is the rare individual who can resist > this, and they are more than outweighed by the masses who can’t resist. > Organized religion doesn’t have a monopoly on the type of > behaviour you are describing.  You rightly say "the human condition > is the problem in the equation".  The big problem is that organized > religions claims are often so high, that the hypocrisy is very obvious. > But really, religious or non-religious…the vast majority of us are > very hypocritical. > What hypocrisy can’t change is whether the message of a particular > religion (which may be from "outside" the human condition) is true > or not.  The followers often are very poor examples of what was > originally intended…but in Christianity, if you understand the > theology of it….this is really to be expected and should hardly be > considered abnormal. >  > Why is it whenever you try to discuss things like this with "true > believers" > they imediately think you’re out to tear them down? Sorry– that’s been > done > well enough by Christianity, during the Crusades and even the modern day > with Missionaries <we’ll build you a water well, but you have to convert > to > our narrow-minded view first>. > I can tell you from personal experience….(my parents were missionaries, > and I grew up with them overseas) that not all missionaries spread the > "good news" in this way, with strings attached.  Sure, there is lots of bad > stuff happening, but again….it’s usually "bad" people that carry out those > bad acts….which…if you understand the theology and structure of a > religion, can’t really be reconciled with the intent of the religion. > I do happen to agree with you, prayer has its place, but some good > honest parenting goes a lot further when bringing up your children. > Both have their place, but the good parenting has got to be in > place first. > Ian

Response:

At the head of this, it said "Off Topic."  Shades did right in doing so. Occasionally, it’s good to get on other routes with folks who have common interests, though.  We’re all adults, here and can handle ourselves fine. We’re having a good discussion, here.  If it says off topic, then bypass it if you choose Snowman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can’t you people take this discussion, argument, opinions to one of > the other 5,000 religious, parenting, etc.. whatever newsgroups out > there??  Really now, this is an automotive newsgroup, otherwise you’ll > get others out here wanting to discuss the finer points of Janet > Jackson’s wardrobe choices also…  Man! >I don’t know Jebus. >Your comment shows, however, how unaware you are of what is going on around >you. >Snowman message >> Yeah Jebus will solve everything. >> What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was >piss-poor >> parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect. >> > >>Columbine update >> <religious psycho-babble snipped>

Response:

Can’t you people take this discussion, argument, opinions to one of the other 5,000 religious, parenting, etc.. whatever newsgroups out there??  Really now, this is an automotive newsgroup, otherwise you’ll get others out here wanting to discuss the finer points of Janet Jackson’s wardrobe choices also…  Man! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I don’t know Jebus. >Your comment shows, however, how unaware you are of what is going on around >you. >Snowman > Yeah Jebus will solve everything. > What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was >piss-poor > parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect. > > >>Columbine update > <religious psycho-babble snipped>

Response:

‘absolute hypocrisy, ‘narrow-minded’… attacks like that is what can put even the mild mannered on the defensive…   Everyone is entitled to their opinion, that is true enough, and I am not bashing you. Please don’t think I am.    I am saying that by using terms like those I listed above from your last post, you do not make yourself out to be very open minded yourself.    Christianity is simple, do right! It is allot harder to do right, but not everything in life can be easy to accomplish.    You DO have many good and very valid points in your last post. FAR to many people have claimed to be doing Gods work only to steal your life savings and knock-up your Daughter… But comparing all Christians to the likes of those types, is wrong.    I hope I didn’t miss the mark on this and I apologize if I did. I am a work in progress. | Again– take a step back, and realize I am not out to "destroy" your beliefs | or anything. More to the point, we agree more than we disagree. | | I do not fear nor seek to destroy any particula way– I just happen to be | able to see the absolutel hypocracy in ALL forms of organized religion. To | not put too fine a point on it, I’m something of a student of religions, | see. The problem in that equation is the human condition. Give someone a way | to seize power, and they will. It is the rare individual who can resist | this, and they are more than outweighed by the masses who can’t resist. | | I know the history behind the bible, and how it was changed to suit | particular powers-that-be throughout history. <King James, anyone?> | | While I discount it’s being the "one true way", I don’t discount the | message. I have respect for Christianity, but not for the multitudes who | pervert it to their own greed…. Sharpton, Falwell, Roberts, numerous folks | I know personally, etc… | | Why is it whenever you try to discuss things like this with "true believers" | they imediately think you’re out to tear them down? Sorry– that’s been done | well enough by Christianity, during the Crusades and even the modern day | with Missionaries <we’ll build you a water well, but you have to convert to | our narrow-minded view first>. | | Sorry my view is misperceived here- I feel like I’ve been saying the same | thing over and over, so this will be my last on this subject, barring | anything insightful. |

| >    I made this post because there are many out there that feel as I do. I | do not fault others for their | > beliefs. Most haven’t been given a choice. I was raised a Christian, | rejected it whole heartedly in my early | > teen years(and that is an understatement), and only recently(past 2+ yrs) | have found my way back to the ‘path’! | >    I have entertained many religions, beliefs, what-have-you in my 34 | years of life. I didn’t go to God, he | > came to me and pulled me from the depths that threatened to drown me. I AM | a believer in the Father, the Son, | > and the Holy Spirit! I am more than willing to listen openly and honestly | to your testimony against my beliefs | > or for other beliefs, but only if you will return the same respect and | listen to my testimony! | >    I am not perfect, never claimed to be! I am not always right, not even | usually right! I do not have all the | > answers, actually hundreds of times more questions than answers! I stumble | and fall far more times than I stand | > tall, though that ratio is leaning more towards standing tall! My mistakes | are many, as are my fears, worries, | > etc, etc… | >    What I am trying to say is to fight human nature, DO NOT fear what you | don’t understand! DO NOT try to | > destroy what you don’t understand! The ‘you’ in those two lines was not in | any way directed to and one person | > or group of people! | > | >    YES, Parenting needs to be removed from the courts control and placed | back into the hands of the Parent. | > BUT, Parenting is NOT television! Parenting is NOT beating your Child into | submission! Parenting is NOT molding | > your Child into what you want them to be! Parenting is NOT giving your | Child everything you never had! | >    I see Parenting as a joint learning experience, for the Father, Mother, | and Child! Your Child might be 3, | > 14, 21, or older, you can still learn as much from them as they can and | have learned from you. There is no | > manual to be the perfect Parent, but there is Basic Instructions Before | Leaving Earth…B.I.B.L.E… | > | >    I might have opened some Minds and Hearts, I might have opened some | cans of worms. Either way, most of you | > are thinking…that is always good!!! | > | > | > | > | >>Columbine update | > | >> | > | >>Guess our national leaders didn’t expect this, hmm? On Thursday, | Darrell | > | >>Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High | School | > | >>shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House | > | >>Judiciary Committee’s subcommittee. What he said to our national | leaders | > | >>during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They | were | > | >>not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It | needs to | > | >>be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every | > | >>sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! | > | >> | > | >>These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, | penetrating, | > | >>and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a | voice | > | >>crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the | transcript: | > | >> | > | >>"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the | hearts | > | >>of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of | > | >>violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and | the | > | >>deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died | must | > | >>not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers." | > | >> | > | >>"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother | Abel | > | >>out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it | the | > | >>NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the | > | >>reason for the murder could only be found in Cain’s heart." | > | >> | > | >>"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how | > | >>quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am | not a | > | >>member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am | not | > | >>here to represent or defend the NRA – because I don’t believe that | they | > | >>are responsible for my daughter’s death. Therefore I do not believe | that | > | >>they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with | > | >>Rachel’s murder I would be their strongest opponent." | > | >> | > | >>"I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it | was a | > | >>spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real | blame | > | >>lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies | > | >>behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. | > | >> | > | >>"I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. | This | > | >>was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today": | > | >> | > | >>Your laws ignore our deepest needs, | > | >>Your words are empty air. | > | >>You’ve stripped away our heritage, | > | >>You’ve outlawed simple prayer. | > | >>Now gunshots fill our classrooms, | > | >>And precious children die. | > | >>You seek for answers everywhere, | > | >>And ask the question "Why?" | > | >>You regulate restrictive laws, | > | >>Through legislative creed. | > | >>And yet you fail to understand, | > | >>That God is what we need! | > | >> | > | >>Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and | > | >>spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we | > | >>create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and | wreak | > | >>havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems | for | > | >>most of our nation’s history. Many of our major colleges began as | > | >>theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. | > | >> | > | >>What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and | in | > | >>so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something | as | > | >>terrible as Columbine’s tragedy occurs – politicians immediately look | for | > | >>a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more | > | >>restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and | private | > | >>liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. | > | >> | > | >>"Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No | amount | > | >>of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of | > | >>massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political | posturing | > | >>and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of | our | > | >>nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that | will | > | >>not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more | gaudy | > | >>television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not | > | >>need more million dollar church buildings built while people with | basic | > | >>needs are being ignored. We DO need a change of heart and a humble | > | >>acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple | > | >>trust in God!" | > | >> | > | >>"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw | his | > | >>two friends murdered … read more »

Response:

Again- don’t get me wrong, I understand where you’re coming from. However, the immediate solution to the problem is proper parenting. Perhaps one should pray for these idiots having children to start parenting insted of just letting the children run their own lives? You and I agree about 98% here, you just don’t understand

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> whoops…          …feathers ruffled, so the point got missed. > My friend, I will take a stand, though.  DO NOT discount the power of > prayer.  Prayer isn’t about "me" and most folks don’t understand this.  I am > a living testimony that there is more power in prayer, though, than you may > ever know.  January 3rd, I fell from a gooseneck trailer, spent the next few > days in ICU, had exploratory surgery on the 6th and lost a kidney.  I was > home on the 9th after being told I’d be there at least a week afterward. I > was healing faster than they thought I could.  I was told I may be able to > think about working in 6-8 weeks.  On the 20th, I was back to work. That’s > this January 2004.  This weekend, I washed both my trucks because I COULD. > There were more people praying for me across this old planet than I can > think and it shows.  Prayer is much more than surface deep and it takes > study and diligence to understand it’s significance. > My point is that if you want a religious debate, then go jack up someone > that’s religious.  I’m not into religion because religion sucks. Religious > people are the ones causing most of the trouble in the world.  In fact, if > you want to get right down to it, the religious people are the ones that > exclaimed "crucify Him." > Now, if you want to talk about a relationship where you can walk right up > and lay your burdens at His feet, be forgiven (not perfect, just forgiven) > then drop me a line.  I’ll talk with you about a life that is so full that > you will never know what happened to you.  I was once where you are and I > understand, totally, what you are saying and respect it.  Do I say these > things at risk of losing respect of those in this group?  Sure, because most > back away from someone that will say the "J" word.  But at what cost?  If > you’re willing to talk about it, then we’ll put it on the table.  No one’s > gonna do anything but give you a choice. > Man, this is WAY off topic.  Good stuff, though. > Snowman > No- my comment shows how narrow-minded the Christian majority is of other > viewpoints. > Put simply: you dismiss my comments out of hand, since I’m not a "true > believer" of the supposed "one true way". > – I don’t dismiss your viewpoint- merely explained the REAL issue at hand > here. Praying to some mystical invisible man upstairs isn’t going to fix > what could have been fixed by parents doing their job. Namely, the parents > of the two fuckwits who perpetrated the incident. > No amount of praying is going to substitute for guiding and shaping young > people. > After all– to borrow a paraphrasd quote from your own Bible: "God helps > those who help themselves". Note the subtext: he’s NOT going to help you > if > you sit around waiting for him to do all the work. > > I don’t know Jebus. > > Your comment shows, however, how unaware you are of what is going on > around > > you. > > Snowman > message > > > Yeah Jebus will solve everything. > > > What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was > > piss-poor > > > parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect. > > > > >>Columbine update > > > <religious psycho-babble snipped>

Response:

Again– take a step back, and realize I am not out to "destroy" your beliefs or anything. More to the point, we agree more than we disagree. I do not fear nor seek to destroy any particula way– I just happen to be able to see the absolutel hypocracy in ALL forms of organized religion. To not put too fine a point on it, I’m something of a student of religions, see. The problem in that equation is the human condition. Give someone a way to seize power, and they will. It is the rare individual who can resist this, and they are more than outweighed by the masses who can’t resist. I know the history behind the bible, and how it was changed to suit particular powers-that-be throughout history. <King James, anyone?> While I discount it’s being the "one true way", I don’t discount the message. I have respect for Christianity, but not for the multitudes who pervert it to their own greed…. Sharpton, Falwell, Roberts, numerous folks I know personally, etc… Why is it whenever you try to discuss things like this with "true believers" they imediately think you’re out to tear them down? Sorry– that’s been done well enough by Christianity, during the Crusades and even the modern day with Missionaries <we’ll build you a water well, but you have to convert to our narrow-minded view first>. Sorry my view is misperceived here- I feel like I’ve been saying the same thing over and over, so this will be my last on this subject, barring anything insightful.

>    I made this post because there are many out there that feel as I do. I

do not fault others for their > beliefs. Most haven’t been given a choice. I was raised a Christian,

rejected it whole heartedly in my early > teen years(and that is an understatement), and only recently(past 2+ yrs)

have found my way back to the ‘path’! >    I have entertained many religions, beliefs, what-have-you in my 34

years of life. I didn’t go to God, he > came to me and pulled me from the depths that threatened to drown me. I AM

a believer in the Father, the Son, > and the Holy Spirit! I am more than willing to listen openly and honestly

to your testimony against my beliefs > or for other beliefs, but only if you will return the same respect and

listen to my testimony! >    I am not perfect, never claimed to be! I am not always right, not even

usually right! I do not have all the > answers, actually hundreds of times more questions than answers! I stumble

and fall far more times than I stand > tall, though that ratio is leaning more towards standing tall! My mistakes

are many, as are my fears, worries, > etc, etc… >    What I am trying to say is to fight human nature, DO NOT fear what you

don’t understand! DO NOT try to > destroy what you don’t understand! The ‘you’ in those two lines was not in

any way directed to and one person > or group of people! >    YES, Parenting needs to be removed from the courts control and placed

back into the hands of the Parent. > BUT, Parenting is NOT television! Parenting is NOT beating your Child into

submission! Parenting is NOT molding > your Child into what you want them to be! Parenting is NOT giving your

Child everything you never had! >    I see Parenting as a joint learning experience, for the Father, Mother,

and Child! Your Child might be 3, > 14, 21, or older, you can still learn as much from them as they can and

have learned from you. There is no > manual to be the perfect Parent, but there is Basic Instructions Before

Leaving Earth…B.I.B.L.E… >    I might have opened some Minds and Hearts, I might have opened some

cans of worms. Either way, most of you > are thinking…that is always good!!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> | >>Columbine update > | >> > | >>Guess our national leaders didn’t expect this, hmm? On Thursday, Darrell > | >>Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School > | >>shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House > | >>Judiciary Committee’s subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders > | >>during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were > | >>not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to > | >>be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every > | >>sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! > | >> > | >>These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, > | >>and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice > | >>crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript: > | >> > | >>"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts > | >>of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of > | >>violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the > | >>deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must > | >>not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers." > | >> > | >>"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel > | >>out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the > | >>NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the > | >>reason for the murder could only be found in Cain’s heart." > | >> > | >>"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how > | >>quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a > | >>member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not > | >>here to represent or defend the NRA – because I don’t believe that they > | >>are responsible for my daughter’s death. Therefore I do not believe that > | >>they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with > | >>Rachel’s murder I would be their strongest opponent." > | >> > | >>"I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a > | >>spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame > | >>lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies > | >>behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. > | >> > | >>"I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This > | >>was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today": > | >> > | >>Your laws ignore our deepest needs, > | >>Your words are empty air. > | >>You’ve stripped away our heritage, > | >>You’ve outlawed simple prayer. > | >>Now gunshots fill our classrooms, > | >>And precious children die. > | >>You seek for answers everywhere, > | >>And ask the question "Why?" > | >>You regulate restrictive laws, > | >>Through legislative creed. > | >>And yet you fail to understand, > | >>That God is what we need! > | >> > | >>Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and > | >>spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we > | >>create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak > | >>havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for > | >>most of our nation’s history. Many of our major colleges began as > | >>theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. > | >> > | >>What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in > | >>so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as > | >>terrible as Columbine’s tragedy occurs – politicians immediately look for > | >>a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more > | >>restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private > | >>liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. > | >> > | >>"Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount > | >>of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of > | >>massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political posturing > | >>and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our > | >>nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will > | >>not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy > | >>television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not > | >>need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic > | >>needs are being ignored. We DO need a change of heart and a humble > | >>acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple > | >>trust in God!" > | >> > | >>"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his > | >>two friends murdered before his very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in > | >>school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge > | >>every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on > | >>April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our > | >>schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. > | >>Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for > | >>legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To > | >>those of you who would point your finger at the NRA – I give to you a > | >>sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first > | >>stone! My daughter’s death will not be in vain! The young people of this > | >>country will not allow that to happen!" > | >> > | >> > | >>Do what the media did not – - let the nation hear this man’s speech. > | >>Please send this out. > | >> > | > | > | > | > |

Response:

man, I just heard about that a couple minutes ago.  I watched until that kid rock guy came out and I couldn’t bare to listen to his mouth.  Didn’t know the rest of what went on until today.  My wife and kids watched it and didn’t say a word about it. Unbelievable, isn’t it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> No, not at all. – and I hope that you don’t take my reply as a slam to you > or any particular religion, either. > I was just making the point that there’s a time and a place for prayer, and > a time to take proactive action against the obvious root cause of a problem. > I agree, in a different context, that there is a lot of desensitization in > the media. Take the damned Super Bowl halftime show last night, for one! The > costumes were just this side of a BDSM fantasy show…… > By the way, my comment to your response was not intended as a slam against > you, burntkat, so I hope it doesn’t get taken as one.  There is so much > desensitizing in the media that society has lost it’s foundation for right > and wrong.  The standards have been tossed aside, to where anyone can > judge > right and wrong according to their own selves. > Shades, good article, in my opinion. > Snowman > > I hear what you’re saying, but I still think they are over-simplifying > > the issue. > > Sorry, there’s times to put things to fate or higher power, and > > there’s times to realize the problem and take active measures to > > correct it. > > Parents need to start parenting. Simple enough. > > <yes, I AM a parent> > > My mention of the phrase "religious sect" was to cover all bases– > > since as you observed, no particular sect is mentioned. > > – and besides– WHICH God is it that we’re missing? <student of the > > world’s spiritualities here, you see> > > > There wasn’t any reference to a religious sect! It is referring to the > worlds path away from God! > message > > > | Yeah Jebus will solve everything. > > > | > > > | What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was > piss-poor > > > | parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect. > > > | > > > | > > > | > > > | > >>Columbine update > > > | <religious psycho-babble snipped> > > > | > > > |

Response:

   I made this post because there are many out there that feel as I do. I do not fault others for their beliefs. Most haven’t been given a choice. I was raised a Christian, rejected it whole heartedly in my early teen years(and that is an understatement), and only recently(past 2+ yrs) have found my way back to the ‘path’!    I have entertained many religions, beliefs, what-have-you in my 34 years of life. I didn’t go to God, he came to me and pulled me from the depths that threatened to drown me. I AM a believer in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! I am more than willing to listen openly and honestly to your testimony against my beliefs or for other beliefs, but only if you will return the same respect and listen to my testimony!    I am not perfect, never claimed to be! I am not always right, not even usually right! I do not have all the answers, actually hundreds of times more questions than answers! I stumble and fall far more times than I stand tall, though that ratio is leaning more towards standing tall! My mistakes are many, as are my fears, worries, etc, etc…    What I am trying to say is to fight human nature, DO NOT fear what you don’t understand! DO NOT try to destroy what you don’t understand! The ‘you’ in those two lines was not in any way directed to and one person or group of people!    YES, Parenting needs to be removed from the courts control and placed back into the hands of the Parent. BUT, Parenting is NOT television! Parenting is NOT beating your Child into submission! Parenting is NOT molding your Child into what you want them to be! Parenting is NOT giving your Child everything you never had!    I see Parenting as a joint learning experience, for the Father, Mother, and Child! Your Child might be 3, 14, 21, or older, you can still learn as much from them as they can and have learned from you. There is no manual to be the perfect Parent, but there is Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth…B.I.B.L.E…    I might have opened some Minds and Hearts, I might have opened some cans of worms. Either way, most of you are thinking…that is always good!!!

| >>Columbine update | >> | >>Guess our national leaders didn’t expect this, hmm? On Thursday, Darrell | >>Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School | >>shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House | >>Judiciary Committee’s subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders | >>during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were | >>not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to | >>be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every | >>sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! | >> | >>These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, | >>and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice | >>crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript: | >> | >>"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts | >>of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of | >>violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the | >>deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must | >>not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers." | >> | >>"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel | >>out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the | >>NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the | >>reason for the murder could only be found in Cain’s heart." | >> | >>"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how | >>quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a | >>member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not | >>here to represent or defend the NRA – because I don’t believe that they | >>are responsible for my daughter’s death. Therefore I do not believe that | >>they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with | >>Rachel’s murder I would be their strongest opponent." | >> | >>"I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a | >>spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame | >>lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies | >>behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. | >> | >>"I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This | >>was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today": | >> | >>Your laws ignore our deepest needs, | >>Your words are empty air. | >>You’ve stripped away our heritage, | >>You’ve outlawed simple prayer. | >>Now gunshots fill our classrooms, | >>And precious children die. | >>You seek for answers everywhere, | >>And ask the question "Why?" | >>You regulate restrictive laws, | >>Through legislative creed. | >>And yet you fail to understand, | >>That God is what we need! | >> | >>Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and | >>spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we | >>create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak | >>havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for | >>most of our nation’s history. Many of our major colleges began as | >>theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. | >> | >>What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in | >>so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as | >>terrible as Columbine’s tragedy occurs – politicians immediately look for | >>a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more | >>restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private | >>liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. | >> | >>"Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount | >>of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of | >>massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political posturing | >>and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our | >>nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will | >>not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy | >>television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not | >>need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic | >>needs are being ignored. We DO need a change of heart and a humble | >>acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple | >>trust in God!" | >> | >>"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his | >>two friends murdered before his very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in | >>school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge | >>every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on | >>April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our | >>schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. | >>Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for | >>legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To | >>those of you who would point your finger at the NRA – I give to you a | >>sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first | >>stone! My daughter’s death will not be in vain! The young people of this | >>country will not allow that to happen!" | >> | >> | >>Do what the media did not – - let the nation hear this man’s speech. | >>Please send this out. | >> | | | | |

Response:

Sorry BK, but that quote does not appear in the bible. However "spare the rod and spoil the child"  certainly is — Computer Tips & Tweaks Builds/Upgrades/Repairs www.acon-pchelp.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> No- my comment shows how narrow-minded the Christian majority is of other > viewpoints. > Put simply: you dismiss my comments out of hand, since I’m not a "true > believer" of the supposed "one true way". > – I don’t dismiss your viewpoint- merely explained the REAL issue at hand > here. Praying to some mystical invisible man upstairs isn’t going to fix > what could have been fixed by parents doing their job. Namely, the parents > of the two fuckwits who perpetrated the incident. > No amount of praying is going to substitute for guiding and shaping young > people. > After all– to borrow a paraphrasd quote from your own Bible: "God helps > those who help themselves". Note the subtext: he’s NOT going to help you if > you sit around waiting for him to do all the work. > I don’t know Jebus. > Your comment shows, however, how unaware you are of what is going on > around > you. > Snowman message > > Yeah Jebus will solve everything. > > What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was > piss-poor > > parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect. > > > >>Columbine update > > <religious psycho-babble snipped>

Response:

whoops…          …feathers ruffled, so the point got missed. My friend, I will take a stand, though.  DO NOT discount the power of prayer.  Prayer isn’t about "me" and most folks don’t understand this.  I am a living testimony that there is more power in prayer, though, than you may ever know.  January 3rd, I fell from a gooseneck trailer, spent the next few days in ICU, had exploratory surgery on the 6th and lost a kidney.  I was home on the 9th after being told I’d be there at least a week afterward.  I was healing faster than they thought I could.  I was told I may be able to think about working in 6-8 weeks.  On the 20th, I was back to work.  That’s this January 2004.  This weekend, I washed both my trucks because I COULD. There were more people praying for me across this old planet than I can think and it shows.  Prayer is much more than surface deep and it takes study and diligence to understand it’s significance. My point is that if you want a religious debate, then go jack up someone that’s religious.  I’m not into religion because religion sucks.  Religious people are the ones causing most of the trouble in the world.  In fact, if you want to get right down to it, the religious people are the ones that exclaimed "crucify Him." Now, if you want to talk about a relationship where you can walk right up and lay your burdens at His feet, be forgiven (not perfect, just forgiven) then drop me a line.  I’ll talk with you about a life that is so full that you will never know what happened to you.  I was once where you are and I understand, totally, what you are saying and respect it.  Do I say these things at risk of losing respect of those in this group?  Sure, because most back away from someone that will say the "J" word.  But at what cost?  If you’re willing to talk about it, then we’ll put it on the table.  No one’s gonna do anything but give you a choice. Man, this is WAY off topic.  Good stuff, though. Snowman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> No- my comment shows how narrow-minded the Christian majority is of other > viewpoints. > Put simply: you dismiss my comments out of hand, since I’m not a "true > believer" of the supposed "one true way". > – I don’t dismiss your viewpoint- merely explained the REAL issue at hand > here. Praying to some mystical invisible man upstairs isn’t going to fix > what could have been fixed by parents doing their job. Namely, the parents > of the two fuckwits who perpetrated the incident. > No amount of praying is going to substitute for guiding and shaping young > people. > After all– to borrow a paraphrasd quote from your own Bible: "God helps > those who help themselves". Note the subtext: he’s NOT going to help you if > you sit around waiting for him to do all the work. > I don’t know Jebus. > Your comment shows, however, how unaware you are of what is going on > around > you. > Snowman message > > Yeah Jebus will solve everything. > > What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was > piss-poor > > parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect. > > > >>Columbine update > > <religious psycho-babble snipped>

Response:

Yeah Jebus will solve everything. What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was piss-poor parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect.

>>Columbine update

<religious psycho-babble snipped>

Response:

   There wasn’t any reference to a religious sect! It is referring to the worlds path away from God! | Yeah Jebus will solve everything. | | What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was piss-poor | parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect. | | |

| > >>Columbine update | <religious psycho-babble snipped> | |

Response:

I don’t know Jebus. Your comment shows, however, how unaware you are of what is going on around you. Snowman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yeah Jebus will solve everything. > What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was piss-poor > parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect. > >>Columbine update > <religious psycho-babble snipped>

Response:

I hear what you’re saying, but I still think they are over-simplifying the issue. Sorry, there’s times to put things to fate or higher power, and there’s times to realize the problem and take active measures to correct it. Parents need to start parenting. Simple enough. <yes, I AM a parent> My mention of the phrase "religious sect" was to cover all bases– since as you observed, no particular sect is mentioned. – and besides– WHICH God is it that we’re missing? <student of the world’s spiritualities here, you see> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > There wasn’t any reference to a religious sect! It is referring to the worlds path away from God! > | Yeah Jebus will solve everything. > | > | What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was piss-poor > | parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect. > | > | > | > | > >>Columbine update > | <religious psycho-babble snipped> > | > |

Response:

No- my comment shows how narrow-minded the Christian majority is of other viewpoints. Put simply: you dismiss my comments out of hand, since I’m not a "true believer" of the supposed "one true way". – I don’t dismiss your viewpoint- merely explained the REAL issue at hand here. Praying to some mystical invisible man upstairs isn’t going to fix what could have been fixed by parents doing their job. Namely, the parents of the two fuckwits who perpetrated the incident. No amount of praying is going to substitute for guiding and shaping young people. After all– to borrow a paraphrasd quote from your own Bible: "God helps those who help themselves". Note the subtext: he’s NOT going to help you if you sit around waiting for him to do all the work.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t know Jebus. > Your comment shows, however, how unaware you are of what is going on around > you. > Snowman > Yeah Jebus will solve everything. > What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was > piss-poor > parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect. > > >>Columbine update > <religious psycho-babble snipped>

Response:

No, not at all. – and I hope that you don’t take my reply as a slam to you or any particular religion, either. I was just making the point that there’s a time and a place for prayer, and a time to take proactive action against the obvious root cause of a problem. I agree, in a different context, that there is a lot of desensitization in the media. Take the damned Super Bowl halftime show last night, for one! The costumes were just this side of a BDSM fantasy show……

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> By the way, my comment to your response was not intended as a slam against > you, burntkat, so I hope it doesn’t get taken as one.  There is so much > desensitizing in the media that society has lost it’s foundation for right > and wrong.  The standards have been tossed aside, to where anyone can judge > right and wrong according to their own selves. > Shades, good article, in my opinion. > Snowman > I hear what you’re saying, but I still think they are over-simplifying > the issue. > Sorry, there’s times to put things to fate or higher power, and > there’s times to realize the problem and take active measures to > correct it. > Parents need to start parenting. Simple enough. > <yes, I AM a parent> > My mention of the phrase "religious sect" was to cover all bases– > since as you observed, no particular sect is mentioned. > – and besides– WHICH God is it that we’re missing? <student of the > world’s spiritualities here, you see> > > There wasn’t any reference to a religious sect! It is referring to the > worlds path away from God! > message > > | Yeah Jebus will solve everything. > > | > > | What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was > piss-poor > > | parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect. > > | > > | > > | > > | > >>Columbine update > > | <religious psycho-babble snipped> > > | > > |

Response:

By the way, my comment to your response was not intended as a slam against you, burntkat, so I hope it doesn’t get taken as one.  There is so much desensitizing in the media that society has lost it’s foundation for right and wrong.  The standards have been tossed aside, to where anyone can judge right and wrong according to their own selves. Shades, good article, in my opinion. Snowman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I hear what you’re saying, but I still think they are over-simplifying > the issue. > Sorry, there’s times to put things to fate or higher power, and > there’s times to realize the problem and take active measures to > correct it. > Parents need to start parenting. Simple enough. > <yes, I AM a parent> > My mention of the phrase "religious sect" was to cover all bases– > since as you observed, no particular sect is mentioned. > – and besides– WHICH God is it that we’re missing? <student of the > world’s spiritualities here, you see>

> There wasn’t any reference to a religious sect! It is referring to the

worlds path away from God! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – message > | Yeah Jebus will solve everything. > | > | What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was piss-poor > | parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect. > | > | > | > | > >>Columbine update > | <religious psycho-babble snipped> > | > |

Response:

Shades, I don’t think I have your email address anymore.  Drop me a line at Snowman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Columbine update >>Guess our national leaders didn’t expect this, hmm? On Thursday, Darrell >>Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School >>shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House >>Judiciary Committee’s subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders >>during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were >>not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to >>be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every >>sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! >>These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, >>and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice >>crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript: >>"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts >>of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of >>violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the >>deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must >>not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers." >>"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel >>out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the >>NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the >>reason for the murder could only be found in Cain’s heart." >>"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how >>quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a >>member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not >>here to represent or defend the NRA – because I don’t believe that they >>are responsible for my daughter’s death. Therefore I do not believe that >>they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with >>Rachel’s murder I would be their strongest opponent." >>"I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a >>spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame >>lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies >>behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. >>"I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This >>was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today": >>Your laws ignore our deepest needs, >>Your words are empty air. >>You’ve stripped away our heritage, >>You’ve outlawed simple prayer. >>Now gunshots fill our classrooms, >>And precious children die. >>You seek for answers everywhere, >>And ask the question "Why?" >>You regulate restrictive laws, >>Through legislative creed. >>And yet you fail to understand, >>That God is what we need! >>Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and >>spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we >>create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak >>havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for >>most of our nation’s history. Many of our major colleges began as >>theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. >>What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in >>so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as >>terrible as Columbine’s tragedy occurs – politicians immediately look for >>a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more >>restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private >>liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. >>"Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount >>of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of >>massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political posturing >>and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our >>nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will >>not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy >>television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not >>need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic >>needs are being ignored. We DO need a change of heart and a humble >>acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple >>trust in God!" >>"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his >>two friends murdered before his very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in >>school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge >>every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on >>April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our >>schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. >>Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for >>legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To >>those of you who would point your finger at the NRA – I give to you a >>sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first >>stone! My daughter’s death will not be in vain! The young people of this >>country will not allow that to happen!" >>Do what the media did not – - let the nation hear this man’s speech. >>Please send this out.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Columbine update >Guess our national leaders didn’t expect this, hmm? On Thursday, Darrell >Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School >shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House >Judiciary Committee’s subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders >during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were >not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to >be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every >sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! >These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, >and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice >crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript: >"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts >of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of >violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the >deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must >not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers." >"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel >out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the >NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the >reason for the murder could only be found in Cain’s heart." >"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how >quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a >member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not >here to represent or defend the NRA – because I don’t believe that they >are responsible for my daughter’s death. Therefore I do not believe that >they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with >Rachel’s murder I would be their strongest opponent." >"I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a >spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame >lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies >behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. >"I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This >was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today": >Your laws ignore our deepest needs, >Your words are empty air. >You’ve stripped away our heritage, >You’ve outlawed simple prayer. >Now gunshots fill our classrooms, >And precious children die. >You seek for answers everywhere, >And ask the question "Why?" >You regulate restrictive laws, >Through legislative creed. >And yet you fail to understand, >That God is what we need! >Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and >spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we >create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak >havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for >most of our nation’s history. Many of our major colleges began as >theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. >What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in >so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as >terrible as Columbine’s tragedy occurs – politicians immediately look for >a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more >restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private >liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. >"Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount >of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of >massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political posturing >and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our >nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will >not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy >television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not >need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic >needs are being ignored. We DO need a change of heart and a humble >acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple >trust in God!" >"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his >two friends murdered before his very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in >school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge >every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on >April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our >schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. >Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for >legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To >those of you who would point your finger at the NRA – I give to you a >sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first >stone! My daughter’s death will not be in vain! The young people of this >country will not allow that to happen!" >Do what the media did not – - let the nation hear this man’s speech. >Please send this out.

Response: