Question:
> > Personally, I think it is important to give children advanced warning > when they are approaching a boundary of unacceptable behaviour – this > way they can often learn without incurring any punitive sanctions…. > As parents, I think our flexibility towards boundaries should increase > as the child’s own respect for boundaries and self-discipline increases, > until eventually the child becomes totally responsible for his/her own > behaviour. > I disagree Steve. Lois is correct that No should mean No. Clear boundaries > once set should be taken seriously. Flexible boundaries ? Is that like a > bendable fence? It won’t keep much out or in.
I agree that ‘No should mean No’, but Lois’ story was meant to illustrate ‘warnings’ – my main point was that advanced warning should be given so that the child knows when it is getting near to a boundary; that way he or she can learn without incurring any punitive sanctions. "Warnings" and "No meaning No" are two separate issues. With regard to flexibility, children (at some point in life) have to be weaned from parental-discipline to self-discipline. By flexibility, I don’t mean "Sometimes Yes, Sometimes No", buyt rather the gradual easing of boundaries as a way of helping the child into adulthood. Without such flexibility, all sorts of problems can accrue in terms of the child developing its own self-discipline. Luke:2:41 shows how, at the age of 12, Mary had given Jesus quite a lot of latitude. Perhaps another way of looking at it is that, as the child grows up, the parent should gradual dismantle parental boundaries, and encourage the child to establish his/her own. — Steve Myers http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk
Response:
I see. I think we are in agreement then. Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Personally, I think it is important to give children advanced warning > > when they are approaching a boundary of unacceptable behaviour – this > > way they can often learn without incurring any punitive sanctions…. > > As parents, I think our flexibility towards boundaries should increase > > as the child’s own respect for boundaries and self-discipline increases, > > until eventually the child becomes totally responsible for his/her own > > behaviour. > I disagree Steve. Lois is correct that No should mean No. Clear boundaries > once set should be taken seriously. Flexible boundaries ? Is that like a > bendable fence? It won’t keep much out or in. > I agree that ‘No should mean No’, but Lois’ story was meant to > illustrate ‘warnings’ – my main point was that advanced warning should > be given so that the child knows when it is getting near to a boundary; > that way he or she can learn without incurring any punitive sanctions. > "Warnings" and "No meaning No" are two separate issues. > With regard to flexibility, children (at some point in life) have to be > weaned from parental-discipline to self-discipline. By flexibility, I > don’t mean "Sometimes Yes, Sometimes No", buyt rather the gradual easing > of boundaries as a way of helping the child into adulthood. Without > such flexibility, all sorts of problems can accrue in terms of the child > developing its own self-discipline. Luke:2:41 shows how, at the age of > 12, Mary had given Jesus quite a lot of latitude. > Perhaps another way of looking at it is that, as the child grows up, the > parent should gradual dismantle parental boundaries, and encourage the > child to establish his/her own. > — > Steve Myers > http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hill) writes: >I’m glad to see that I wasn’t the only parent who had some trouble >with this one. I very much respect the Love and Logic perspective. In >fact, I had the privilege of hearing Fay speak a couple of months ago. >One of my children is a 9 yo boy with Tourette Syndrome, >Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder and ADHD. Warnings are absolutely vital >in disciplining him. The extreme impulsivity that goes with his >disorders makes it difficult for him to instantly connect action with >consequence from previous experience. And an unforeseen consequence or >activity can cause him to erupt in extreme rage attacks. >The key here is making sure that the rules are known and, if they are >known and yet disobeyed, then applying the consequence and applying it >consistently. Yes, policemen do sometimes give warning tickets – >especially if the driver truly was unaware of the rule (for example, >perhaps from out-of-state or out-of-the country). Teachers give papers >back to kids occasionally to re-do. Bosses rarely fire someone for >making a single mistake. And good parents DO sometimes give warnings. >Vicki H.
I agee Vicki. I also love the love and logic approach (the cable system replayed his lecture over and over again on the access channel). But, especially with toddlers, kids need to be warned. The younger, the more they need it, they have such short memories. I warn my toddler (16 mos) every time, then if he continues, he gets a time out (1 min). If he does it again there is no warning and a 2 min time out. It works marvalously. I don’t think he’s ever gotten an 3 min time out. Also, the other night my friend’s niece got caught in a bad situation. Her flight home from college was cancelled and no one told her. Her boyfriend had taken her luggage with him. She couldn’t handle the situation. She was scared to be alone in a hotel room. I had to go stay with my friend’s kids so she could go pick her up (her husband wouldn’t come home – whole other story). I asked what kind of parents the girl had. It was "yes, sir", "no sir" all the way. This kid couldn’t handle it because she didn’t have the skills to think for herself! I can relate. My parents were the same way. I can’t make a decision to save my life. I don’t want my child to grow up like that. I want him to at least be able to think and resolve his own problems. Love and Logic can help with that IMO. Sorry to ramble, Nyoka
Response:
I’m glad to see that I wasn’t the only parent who had some trouble with this one. I very much respect the Love and Logic perspective. In fact, I had the privilege of hearing Fay speak a couple of months ago. One of my children is a 9 yo boy with Tourette Syndrome, Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder and ADHD. Warnings are absolutely vital in disciplining him. The extreme impulsivity that goes with his disorders makes it difficult for him to instantly connect action with consequence from previous experience. And an unforeseen consequence or activity can cause him to erupt in extreme rage attacks. The key here is making sure that the rules are known and, if they are known and yet disobeyed, then applying the consequence and applying it consistently. Yes, policemen do sometimes give warning tickets – especially if the driver truly was unaware of the rule (for example, perhaps from out-of-state or out-of-the country). Teachers give papers back to kids occasionally to re-do. Bosses rarely fire someone for making a single mistake. And good parents DO sometimes give warnings. Vicki H.
Response:
> WARNING: GOOD PARENTS DON’T GIVE WARNINGS > Little Richie is a terror at the table… > Mom, thinking she’s consequential, says, "Okay, > Richie, your dinner’s over. Off to your room." > Richie says, "I’ll be good." > And what does Mom say but, "Oh, well, okay. Are you > sure you’ll be good? Or are you going to keep goofing off > at the table?"
I thought your post on choices was a good one, Lois, but I’m not so sure about this one on warnings. When I read your example, it seemed to me that the problem was the lack of clear and consistent boundaries rather than a problem with issuing warnings. For example, when given a ’speeding ticket’, there are regular "warning" signs to remind us what speed we should be doing. Our choice, as adults, is whether we pay any attention to these warnings or not. Personally, I think it is important to give children advanced warning when they are approaching a boundary of unacceptable behaviour – this way they can often learn without incurring any punitive sanctions. However, it is very important to apply those boundaries consistently (this was one of the Mother’s mistakes in the story above, as she moved the boundary that defined when a sanction would be incurred). Once children have ‘tested’ the boundaries fully, and found them to be consistent, they will then respond more positively to the advanced warnings. But there is also a need for flexibility. Policemen (or policewomen) sometimes give verbal warnings rather than a ticket if the misdemeanour is not great, and the previous driving record is good. I suppose it depends on the policeman’s view on whether the driver was deliberately ignoring the speed limit, or whether the person normally drives carefully and this was simply an inadvertent breaking of the law. The spirit of the law is as important (if not more so) than the letter, and, in that context, discretion and flexibility is important to maintain respect for the law. As parents, I think our flexibility towards boundaries should increase as the child’s own respect for boundaries and self-discipline increases, until eventually the child becomes totally responsible for his/her own behaviour. Of course, that’s the theory. Actually BEING a consistent but flexible parent is quite difficult (or impossible?). — Steve Myers http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk
Response:
I disagree Steve. Lois is correct that No should mean No. Clear boundaries once set should be taken seriously. Flexible boundaries ? Is that like a bendable fence? It won’t keep much out or in. Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> WARNING: GOOD PARENTS DON’T GIVE WARNINGS > Little Richie is a terror at the table… > Mom, thinking she’s consequential, says, "Okay, > Richie, your dinner’s over. Off to your room." > Richie says, "I’ll be good." > And what does Mom say but, "Oh, well, okay. Are you > sure you’ll be good? Or are you going to keep goofing off > at the table?" > I thought your post on choices was a good one, Lois, but I’m not so sure > about this one on warnings. When I read your example, it seemed to me > that the problem was the lack of clear and consistent boundaries rather > than a problem with issuing warnings. For example, when given a > ’speeding ticket’, there are regular "warning" signs to remind us what > speed we should be doing. Our choice, as adults, is whether we pay any > attention to these warnings or not. > Personally, I think it is important to give children advanced warning > when they are approaching a boundary of unacceptable behaviour – this > way they can often learn without incurring any punitive sanctions. > However, it is very important to apply those boundaries consistently > (this was one of the Mother’s mistakes in the story above, as she moved > the boundary that defined when a sanction would be incurred). Once > children have ‘tested’ the boundaries fully, and found them to be > consistent, they will then respond more positively to the advanced > warnings. > But there is also a need for flexibility. Policemen (or policewomen) > sometimes give verbal warnings rather than a ticket if the misdemeanour > is not great, and the previous driving record is good. I suppose it > depends on the policeman’s view on whether the driver was deliberately > ignoring the speed limit, or whether the person normally drives > carefully and this was simply an inadvertent breaking of the law. The > spirit of the law is as important (if not more so) than the letter, and, > in that context, discretion and flexibility is important to maintain > respect for the law. > As parents, I think our flexibility towards boundaries should increase > as the child’s own respect for boundaries and self-discipline increases, > until eventually the child becomes totally responsible for his/her own > behaviour. > Of course, that’s the theory. Actually BEING a consistent but flexible > parent is quite difficult (or impossible?). > — > Steve Myers > http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk
Response:
WARNING: GOOD PARENTS DON’T GIVE WARNINGS Reprinted from PARENTING WITH LOVE AND LOGIC by Foster Cline MD and Jim Fay Pinon Press, 1993 Think of yourself as tooling down the freeway at 70 mph in a 55 mph zone. You see the multicolored lights of doom blinking in your rear-view mirror, and you think of one thing, and one thing only: "I’m going to get a ticket." The cop saunters up to your car, nice as can be, writes the ticket, bids you adieu, and is on his merry way. He offers no hysterics, no anger, no threats. Just courtesy and a little slip of paper – the consequences of your breaking the law. As an adult, you would never think, in your wildest imaginings, of telling him, "I’ll be good, officer. Honest, I won’t speed anymore," and having him say, "Well, okay. If you’ll be good, I won’t write you a ticket." That is the stuff of fantasy. But how often in our homes is our kids’ pleading met with parental shilly-shallying? Little Richie is a terror at the table. He pouts and complains and whines and builds miniature motocross courses on his plate around which he pushes peas up and down ramps of celery stalks and around mini-mountains of mashed potatoes. Mom, thinking she’s consequential, says, "Okay, Richie, your dinner’s over. Off to your room." Richie says, "I’ll be good." And what does Mom say but, "Oh, well, okay. Are you sure you’ll be good? Or are you going to keep goofing off at the table?" "No, I won’t do it anymore. I’ll be good." "Well, okay," Mom says, thinking her problems are over. "You can stay." The real world doesn’t operate on the multiple-warning system, and neither should we. Parents who give a lot of warnings raise kids who don’t behave until they’ve had a lot of warnings.
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Lois E Paul, Executive Director Voice (209) 478-5585 Help The Children FAX (209) 478-5586 1350 W Robinhood Dr Ste2 TDD/TTY (209) 478-5685 HTTP://www.adopting.org/htc.html Mother to Helene (27), Erica (26), Thiago (17), Andy (10) and grandmother to Joshua (6), Jessica (5), and ? (due in Dec 96) - All Children Are Gifted…. They Just Open Their Presents At Different Times-
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