Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->For the first 7 years he was an angel. Co-operative, responsible, >polite, hard-working, bright, happy, sensitive, and gentle. What more >could you ask? >Now, we have a monster in our midst. >He openly defies us, is rude, torments his younger brother, sulks, and >has the attention span of a goldfish. If he isn’t pre-pubescent, he’s >not going to survive his teens! >We have tried a wide variety of approaches to resolving this (not all >at once, and we usually given each approach several weeks): >Praising good behaviour – goes to his head and he instantly reverts to >the "bad" behaviour. >Critiquing bad behaviour – he just smirks and ignores us. >Offering rewards for good behaviour – he’s not prepared to pay >the "price", whatever that may be (e.g. making his bed each day, or >doing his homework). >Penalising bad behaviour (removing favourite toys, cancelling trips, >etc.) – He whinges, whines, sulks and complains. But doesn’t correct >his behaviour. >Sitting down to talk it through – this used to be all we needed. Now he >smirks, fidgets, refuses to look at us. Won’t talk to us, or even >listen quietly. >Every so often, he "gets his head straight" and the old child re- >surfaces, we have a lovely few days, and relax. The next day, we’re >back on the roller coaster! >It all comes to a head when homework needs to be done! >Academically, he is very bright and capable of doing the work. We have >him in a private school for "advanced" children so that he *is* >challenged. >But, he won’t apply himself and get it done. He whinges that it’s "not >fair" that he should have to do any. Or that he "can;t do it", and so >on. >We’re thinking of just letting him have his head and leaving him >totally alone to do it. That way he will sink or swim in class >according to his effort. But we’re reluctant to risk letting him >destroy his academic life by not doing his work. >On the rare occasions we get him to actually do the work, he admits to >getting "a buzz" from finishing it and getting it out of the way. He >admits that, if he concntrates, he has more time to play than when he >procrastinates and drags it out. >Now, to put it in some context, we’ve made allowances for the following >events over the last 18 months: >- I spent 12 months commuting between the UK and USA. >- We eventually moved to the USA (thus changing schools, etc) >- We have a 3 month old addition to the family >But having said that, our son says he *prefers* it here. He loves his >new school, the area, the weather, his friends. He also adores his new >sister. >We let him spend as much time on the phone to his friends and family in >the UK as he wants/needs so he doesn’t feel cut off. We’ve already had >one visit from family (we only moved over in February) with another two >planned in the next 6 months. I have enough air miles to pay for two >trips back to England, and he knows we’re going to use them. So he’s >not isolated. >But its getting to the point now where it has to be sorted for our own >sanity! >All genuine help gratefully received. >thanks >Keith
He has had some major changes lately hasn’t he? Anyway you just lay down the law and enforce the consequences. When you tell him to do homework and he whines and is reluctant to do it and he keeps whining what do you do? Do you give in and not make him finish or do you make him finish the homework? Does he have new friends? What are they like? Loev, Grandma Poopie Pants
Response:
> And Elaine doesn’t even have any kids. I just love all the childless > child "experts" like Oprah and Elaine.
Hmm… I like Oprah, so thanks. You put me in good company. Ok. So you’re a parent. What do you think about the issue? Make the boy remain civil in the home and do his homework? Or just provide lots of homework, toss in a boy, and hope everything comes out for the best?
Response:
> I AM the expert on getting the option on doing homework, and choosing not to > do it.
Great. FINALLY we get some information from you that is pertinent. I’ll accept that you’re the expert on this. Now we realize that every child is different, but tell us: Why did you choose not to do your homework? Did you find it boring? Did you find it hard? Did you think you were just a dummy and it wouldn’t make any difference anyway? Were you afraid to ask for help? I’d be honestly interested to hear. Lynne Before you buy.
Response:
All, I am having difficulty keeping track of discussions in two forums (misc.kids and alt.parenting.solutions). It’s complicated by using outlook at home (which shows all messages) and deja-news at work (which is either missing some, or threading them differently). So, I’m going to concentrate on a single newsgroup in my replies from now on. Alt.parenting.solutions seems the best suited to this discussion so I will focus my attention there. Hopefully it will improve the signal-to-noise ratio for others in misc.kids as well. When I originally cross-posted I hadn’t expected two large threads to develop. Apologies to all uninterested parties. Keith Before you buy.
Response:
I AM the expert on getting the option on doing homework, and choosing not to do it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > Right now your little boy needs your reassurance that you love him just >> > because he’s him >> Actually the little man seeemed to me to be running around with an >> enormously inflated ego. The little cat who-swallowed-the-canary smirk, the >> abusive behavior. He seems to think he’s caught on to how to run the show. >Elaine is our raving "you don’t BEAT your kid enough, harder, harder" >dyed in the wool paranoid. She doesn’t even realize that kids who are >well-treated never even WANT or feel they NEED to "run the show"!! > And Elaine doesn’t even have any kids. I just love all the childless > child "experts" like Oprah and Elaine. > A person can read all the books and whatever but unless you actually > have some kids of your own, adopted, or whatever; you are totally > clueless as to how it really is. > Loev, > Poopie >> > I think that right now you need to step back and remember that this boy >> > is ONLY 8 YEARS OLD. There is no way that he is going to destroy >> > his academic life at this age >> Really? At what age did you THINK the seeds of later school performance >> were planted? When did you THINK it would be easier to get him on track? >> Age 14? 16? 18? >> The time to learn how to study and consentrate now. Not later. It will just >> get harder and harder later. >Oh this IS the time to do something alright, something DIFFERENT than >anything you ALREADY did to him! >Steve
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Right now your little boy needs your reassurance that you love him just > > because he’s him > Actually the little man seeemed to me to be running around with an > enormously inflated ego. The little cat who-swallowed-the-canary smirk, the > abusive behavior. He seems to think he’s caught on to how to run the show. >Elaine is our raving "you don’t BEAT your kid enough, harder, harder" >dyed in the wool paranoid. She doesn’t even realize that kids who are >well-treated never even WANT or feel they NEED to "run the show"!!
And Elaine doesn’t even have any kids. I just love all the childless child "experts" like Oprah and Elaine. A person can read all the books and whatever but unless you actually have some kids of your own, adopted, or whatever; you are totally clueless as to how it really is. Loev, Poopie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I think that right now you need to step back and remember that this boy > > is ONLY 8 YEARS OLD. There is no way that he is going to destroy > > his academic life at this age > Really? At what age did you THINK the seeds of later school performance > were planted? When did you THINK it would be easier to get him on track? > Age 14? 16? 18? > The time to learn how to study and consentrate now. Not later. It will just > get harder and harder later. >Oh this IS the time to do something alright, something DIFFERENT than >anything you ALREADY did to him! >Steve
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks for the supportive comments everyone. > Just to hit some points raised by others. > When I said "letting have his head", I was not talking about "giving up". > Instead, we were going to stop reminding him to do his homework, or even > asking if he had any. The point being that he would have to become > completely self-reliant to get the results he says he wants (ie good > grades). > He would be learning responsibility the hard way, and it is probably best > done now than later. Being a new school year, he has all year to recover > from bad start. > We tried this too. I can tell you that it didn’t work with my daughter. I > believe she saw it as "getting away with" not doing the homework.
That’s what happened to me. I never did any of the homework and fell behind in school. I NEVER caught up. It had a bad effect on my personality and self esteem. Teacher were always mad at me. I never learned to study. No one cared enough to sit with me and see to it my work got completed. She would > say things like "I know I’m going to get in trouble at school for not doing > it." But it didn’t encourage her to do the homework.
Threats of later pain don’t work. There is the promise of short term fun. Isn’t the the whole theme of the story, Pinochio? Small children being lured by the promise of short term gratification. It’s only when they begin to mature they are willing to defer gratification. > She would just take > the consequences and go on with herself.
Yup. and those consequences are SO much worse than just doing your work in the first place. > So I would caution you that if you > do try this tactic not to let it go on too long. Otherwise, he will get > behind and hurt his grades even more. Too I was afraid it would be setting > up a habit of not doing the work and not caring about school. Not a good > thing.
I left this statement, because it bears repeating.
Response:
He’s growing up. Perhaps he had a realization.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Right now your little boy needs your reassurance that you love him > just > > because he’s him > Actually the little man seeemed to me to be running around with an > enormously inflated ego. The little cat who-swallowed-the-canary > smirk, the > abusive behavior. He seems to think he’s caught on to how to run the > show. > The original post said: > "For the first 7 years he was an angel. Co-operative, > responsible, > polite, hard-working, bright, happy, sensitive, and gentle." > Then there was a MAJOR move, as in to another country, new school, > and to top it off–a new little sister. The first born child always > has a bigger > adjustment to make to a sibling than any other child, simply because > he > has had mom and dad’s undivided attention for whatever time it takes > for them to produce another child. In this case it was eight years. > Children very often feel uncertain about changes in their lives and > can and do respond by acting out. He is smart and knows how > important his academic achievement is to his parents. He is testing > them to see if they still love him even if he doesn’t do so great at > the > homework scene. A good rule of thumb for children is that the one > that is acting the least loveable is usually the one that needs the > most > love. > > I think that right now you need to step back and remember that > this boy > > is ONLY 8 YEARS OLD. There is no way that he is going to destroy > > his academic life at this age > Really? At what age did you THINK the seeds of later school > performance > were planted? When did you THINK it would be easier to get him on > track? > Age 14? 16? 18? > Well, if the parents were to place his academic achievement above his > sense of well being and his feelings of being able to count on their > unconditional love, his school performance could > turn out to be the least of their worries. > The time to learn how to study and consentrate now. Not later. It > will just > get harder and harder later. > I agree, but first things first. If he is still dealing with the > changes going on > in his life, he isn’t going to be able to concentrate on anything. > He still needs LOTS of loving assurance that his parents > love him just as much now as they did before baby sister came into the > family AND that they would still love him even if he didn’t get all > his > homework done. (But they should remind him that HE would be > happier if he did good in school and that is only possible if he does > his homework.) > Sometimes we as parents simply assume that our children know that > we love them. This is not the case. Children need to be TOLD that > they are loved and shown that they are loved by our actions and by > our acceptance of them as individuals.
Response:
> Thanks for the supportive comments everyone. > Just to hit some points raised by others. > When I said "letting have his head", I was not talking about "giving up". > Instead, we were going to stop reminding him to do his homework, or even > asking if he had any. The point being that he would have to become > completely self-reliant to get the results he says he wants (ie good > grades). > He would be learning responsibility the hard way, and it is probably best > done now than later. Being a new school year, he has all year to recover > from bad start.
We tried this too. I can tell you that it didn’t work with my daughter. I believe she saw it as "getting away with" not doing the homework. She would say things like "I know I’m going to get in trouble at school for not doing it." But it didn’t encourage her to do the homework. She would just take the consequences and go on with herself. So I would caution you that if you do try this tactic not to let it go on too long. Otherwise, he will get behind and hurt his grades even more. Too I was afraid it would be setting up a habit of not doing the work and not caring about school. Not a good thing. <snip> > I would guess that his homework could easily be done in 30 minutes a day. > But he drags it out. IN the past, once we insisted it had to be done, he has > dragged two hours work out to a full weekend. And no, we didn’t give in. > From the time he got up till he went to bed we did not let him move from his > desk other than for food and toilet until he got it all done. It made no > change in his behaviour.
<snip> This is another one that my DD tried. She would sit in her room and, I don’t know, look at the wall, twiddle her thumbs, etc instead of doing the work. What worked to get her to do it, was to sit with her while she did it. Every time she would try to move to something else, I would gently say "It’s not time to be talking (or whatever.) It’s time to be working on the homework so you can get it done." Pretty soon, she was to the point that she would just sit and do it, and do it in a timely fashion. We spent a week sitting at the table together with her working. After that, she was able to go back to her room and do it on her own. She is so independent that she really didn’t want to have to sit there with me. She would much rather work on her own. But she knew that I would check the homework after she said it was done, and any time she didn’t do the homework would mean another week of sitting at the table with Mom. Sharon
Response:
> Thanks for the supportive comments everyone. > Just to hit some points raised by others. > When I said "letting have his head", I was not talking about "giving up". > Instead, we were going to stop reminding him to do his homework, or even > asking if he had any.
Shocking. What you described is what I would define as "giving up". > The point being that he would have to become > completely self-reliant to get the results he says he wants (ie good > grades).
YOu are dreaming. Small children don’t have your understanding of building for a future. > He would be learning responsibility the hard way, and it is probably best > done now than later. Being a new school year, he has all year to recover > from bad start. > Basically, we’ve told him fire burns. Over and over. Now, I think we’ll have > to let him touch the flames.
It seems to me that you have already made up your mind about what you want to do. All that is left is to rationalize this decision to yourself. > I’m not too worried about "bad influences" etc. at school. He is in a class > of 12, and the teacher usually has a parent helping in class. So, it’s > pretty hard for that sort of thing to come about. > I would guess that his homework could easily be done in 30 minutes a day. > But he drags it out.
You let him drag it out. He’s doing SOMETHING to stretch out the time- getting up for drinks, day dreaming, something. If he gets NO goodies before he finishes, he will race to finish. >IN the past, once we insisted it had to be done, he has > dragged two hours work out to a full weekend.
I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts all that time wasn’t spent sitting in a chair cracking books. > And no, we didn’t give in. > From the time he got up till he went to bed we did not let him move from his > desk other than for food
There ya go. Food is a fabulous motivator. Tell him he eats when he completes his task. >and toilet until he got it all done. It made no > change in his behaviour.
he was apparently comfortable enough not to feel any need to work. If he gets uncomfortable enough, he will work for food. Once you have re-patterned his behavior, you won’t have to be so strict. > Yes, there have been many changes. We were also trying to move him to his > own bed - we family bed, and five was getting a little crowded. Maybe that > is introducing some stress, and we might back off on that for a while. > As for "make him stop", and "don’t let him" etc. If we could do that, why > would we be posting here? In fact, if I could do that I’d be a millionaire > by now from book royalties 
You are being overpowered by a little boy. Grow a spine. Your children depend on you to be able to lead them. So LEAD. > If people are talking spanking, well I have no axe to grind on that. It > simply doesn’t work *for us*, or in *our* household. YMMV
I never suggested spanking. Be his dad. Tell him he WILL be doing X now, and nothing else until he gets it accomplished. Cease making failure an option- for all of you.
Response:
> Right now your little boy needs your reassurance that you love him just > because he’s him > Actually the little man seeemed to me to be running around with an > enormously inflated ego. The little cat who-swallowed-the-canary smirk, the > abusive behavior. He seems to think he’s caught on to how to run the
show. The original post said: "For the first 7 years he was an angel. Co-operative, responsible, polite, hard-working, bright, happy, sensitive, and gentle." Then there was a MAJOR move, as in to another country, new school, and to top it off–a new little sister. The first born child always has a bigger adjustment to make to a sibling than any other child, simply because he has had mom and dad’s undivided attention for whatever time it takes for them to produce another child. In this case it was eight years. Children very often feel uncertain about changes in their lives and can and do respond by acting out. He is smart and knows how important his academic achievement is to his parents. He is testing them to see if they still love him even if he doesn’t do so great at the homework scene. A good rule of thumb for children is that the one that is acting the least loveable is usually the one that needs the most love. > I think that right now you need to step back and remember that this boy > is ONLY 8 YEARS OLD. There is no way that he is going to destroy > his academic life at this age > Really? At what age did you THINK the seeds of later school performance > were planted? When did you THINK it would be easier to get him on track? > Age 14? 16? 18?
Well, if the parents were to place his academic achievement above his sense of well being and his feelings of being able to count on their unconditional love, his school performance could turn out to be the least of their worries. > The time to learn how to study and consentrate now. Not later. It will just > get harder and harder later.
I agree, but first things first. If he is still dealing with the changes going on in his life, he isn’t going to be able to concentrate on anything. He still needs LOTS of loving assurance that his parents love him just as much now as they did before baby sister came into the family AND that they would still love him even if he didn’t get all his homework done. (But they should remind him that HE would be happier if he did good in school and that is only possible if he does his homework.) Sometimes we as parents simply assume that our children know that we love them. This is not the case. Children need to be TOLD that they are loved and shown that they are loved by our actions and by our acceptance of them as individuals.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Thanks for the supportive comments everyone. > Just to hit some points raised by others. > When I said "letting have his head", I was not talking about "giving up". > Instead, we were going to stop reminding him to do his homework, or even > asking if he had any. The point being that he would have to become > completely self-reliant to get the results he says he wants (ie good > grades). > He would be learning responsibility the hard way, and it is probably best > done now than later. Being a new school year, he has all year to recover > from bad start. > Basically, we’ve told him fire burns. Over and over. Now, I think we’ll have > to let him touch the flames. > I’m not too worried about "bad influences" etc. at school. He is in a class > of 12, and the teacher usually has a parent helping in class. So, it’s > pretty hard for that sort of thing to come about. > I would guess that his homework could easily be done in 30 minutes a day. > But he drags it out. IN the past, once we insisted it had to be done, he has > dragged two hours work out to a full weekend. And no, we didn’t give in. > From the time he got up till he went to bed we did not let him move from his > desk other than for food and toilet until he got it all done. It made no > change in his behaviour.
That’s it right there. You have created so much revenge in his heart toward you that he is lashing out at you in the only way you can!! This same behavior is found as a result of idiots who try to force a child to eat something they don’t like or otherwise perform such a close violation upon their personal desires. Only the British try such stupid and barbaric child-rearing, and they classically complain of the result. > Yes, there have been many changes. We were also trying to move him to his > own bed - we family bed, and five was getting a little crowded. Maybe that > is introducing some stress, and we might back off on that for a while.
It does sound stressful, especially in light of your non-egalitarian authority fixation. You do not win friends by enslaving them. Neither do you need to ignore his studies, instead it is your job to affect him in a manner so that he LIKES doing his schoolwork for you! If you cannot think of a way then is your whole family dim?? > As for "make him stop", and "don’t let him" etc. If we could do that, why > would we be posting here? In fact, if I could do that I’d be a millionaire > by now from book royalties > If people are talking spanking, well I have no axe to grind on that. It > simply doesn’t work *for us*, or in *our* household. YMMV > Thanks for the help > Keith
Spanking doesn’t work at all. It creates bullies because they turn their vengeance upon smaller children. Steve
Response:
> > Right now your little boy needs your reassurance that you love him just > because he’s him > Actually the little man seeemed to me to be running around with an > enormously inflated ego. The little cat who-swallowed-the-canary smirk, the > abusive behavior. He seems to think he’s caught on to how to run the show.
Elaine is our raving "you don’t BEAT your kid enough, harder, harder" dyed in the wool paranoid. She doesn’t even realize that kids who are well-treated never even WANT or feel they NEED to "run the show"!! > I think that right now you need to step back and remember that this boy > is ONLY 8 YEARS OLD. There is no way that he is going to destroy > his academic life at this age > Really? At what age did you THINK the seeds of later school performance > were planted? When did you THINK it would be easier to get him on track? > Age 14? 16? 18? > The time to learn how to study and consentrate now. Not later. It will just > get harder and harder later.
Oh this IS the time to do something alright, something DIFFERENT than anything you ALREADY did to him! Steve
Response:
Thanks for the supportive comments everyone. Just to hit some points raised by others. When I said "letting have his head", I was not talking about "giving up". Instead, we were going to stop reminding him to do his homework, or even asking if he had any. The point being that he would have to become completely self-reliant to get the results he says he wants (ie good grades). He would be learning responsibility the hard way, and it is probably best done now than later. Being a new school year, he has all year to recover from bad start. Basically, we’ve told him fire burns. Over and over. Now, I think we’ll have to let him touch the flames. I’m not too worried about "bad influences" etc. at school. He is in a class of 12, and the teacher usually has a parent helping in class. So, it’s pretty hard for that sort of thing to come about. I would guess that his homework could easily be done in 30 minutes a day. But he drags it out. IN the past, once we insisted it had to be done, he has dragged two hours work out to a full weekend. And no, we didn’t give in. From the time he got up till he went to bed we did not let him move from his desk other than for food and toilet until he got it all done. It made no change in his behaviour. Yes, there have been many changes. We were also trying to move him to his own bed - we family bed, and five was getting a little crowded. Maybe that is introducing some stress, and we might back off on that for a while. As for "make him stop", and "don’t let him" etc. If we could do that, why would we be posting here? In fact, if I could do that I’d be a millionaire by now from book royalties If people are talking spanking, well I have no axe to grind on that. It simply doesn’t work *for us*, or in *our* household. YMMV Thanks for the help Keith
Response:
Elaine, dear – *make* him stop -how? Despite the *pretense* no one can *make* a child do anything he wants to fight you on. And if you make things into a fight, he will simply do something else annoying. Dorothy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >My impression is that your son has figured out that he has options on things >that should be requirements. Examples to follow. > For the first 7 years he was an angel. Co-operative, responsible, > polite, hard-working, bright, happy, sensitive, and gentle. What more > could you ask? > Now, we have a monster in our midst. > He openly defies us, is rude >Don’t let him do that. Time outs are said to work wonders. >, torments his younger brother, sulks >Don’t let him do that. Do not give him the option of doing that. Stop him >immediately when he starts, and forbid him from doing anything he wants to >do until he behaves himself. >You open doors for him yourself, by letting him get the reward of the bad >behavior with no repercussions. > Praising good behaviour – goes to his head and he instantly reverts to > the "bad" behaviour. >Don’t let him. > Critiquing bad behaviour – he just smirks and ignores us. >Make him stop immediately. > Offering rewards for good behaviour – he’s not prepared to pay > the "price" >Then he can’t do anything else until he does the right thing. No food, no >water, no tv, no fun. Put the ball in HIS court. When he is ready to act >like a caring son and brother, he can take the rewards that come with family >life. >, whatever that may be (e.g. making his bed each day, or > doing his homework). >YOU are the parent. It’s up to you to lead. YOU say what is going to happen >and when. The boy doesn’t get an option. > Penalising bad behaviour (removing favourite toys, cancelling trips, > etc.) – He whinges, whines, sulks and complains. But doesn’t correct > his behaviour. > Sitting down to talk it through – this used to be all we needed. Now he > smirks, fidgets, refuses to look at us. Won’t talk to us, or even > listen quietly. >Then it’s "the corner" until he shapes up. > Every so often, he "gets his head straight" and the old child re- > surfaces, we have a lovely few days, and relax. The next day, we’re > back on the roller coaster! > It all comes to a head when homework needs to be done! > Academically, he is very bright and capable of doing the work. We have > him in a private school for "advanced" children so that he *is* > challenged. > But, he won’t apply himself and get it done. He whinges that it’s "not > fair" that he should have to do any. Or that he "can;t do it", and so > on. > We’re thinking of just letting him have his head >Ok, THERE is the gist of your situation with this boy. You are toying with >just letting him do whatever he wants to do. In fact, you are giving him >MORE options on more behavior that should be required. >He bitched so much that he ultimately got rewarded for it. >and leaving him > totally alone to do it. That way he will sink or swim in class > according to his effort. But we’re reluctant to risk letting him > destroy his academic life by not doing his work. >He’s just a little boy! Of COURSE he’s going to pick the easier option if >you give him one.
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown
Response:
Keith, It’s really not normal for a child’s behaviour to change that significantly overnight…even with the changes you’ve experienced with the move. If you can’t get him to talk to you, then I really would suggest looking into counseling. There must be something else going on…maybe at school? Is it possible the kids are giving him a hard time at school? Is it possible that he’s hanging out with a bad crowd at school? Is it even possible that he’s somehow come in contact with drugs of some sort? I don’t mean to offend you…but if it were MY son, I’d look into all of those things and more. Children don’t change that drastically that quickly unless something is bothering them. Good luck to you, your family and your son. I think something’s really bothering him and it won’t get better until it’s identified. — Best Regards, Cathie " You must be very educated to be eloquent…There is nothing more eloquent than a parent saying to a child ‘I love you’." ~Maya Angelou
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> For the first 7 years he was an angel. Co-operative, responsible, > polite, hard-working, bright, happy, sensitive, and gentle. What more > could you ask? > Now, we have a monster in our midst. > He openly defies us, is rude, torments his younger brother, sulks, and > has the attention span of a goldfish. If he isn’t pre-pubescent, he’s > not going to survive his teens! > We have tried a wide variety of approaches to resolving this (not all > at once, and we usually given each approach several weeks): > Praising good behaviour – goes to his head and he instantly reverts to > the "bad" behaviour. > Critiquing bad behaviour – he just smirks and ignores us. > Offering rewards for good behaviour – he’s not prepared to pay > the "price", whatever that may be (e.g. making his bed each day, or > doing his homework). > Penalising bad behaviour (removing favourite toys, cancelling trips, > etc.) – He whinges, whines, sulks and complains. But doesn’t correct > his behaviour. > Sitting down to talk it through – this used to be all we needed. Now he > smirks, fidgets, refuses to look at us. Won’t talk to us, or even > listen quietly. > Every so often, he "gets his head straight" and the old child re- > surfaces, we have a lovely few days, and relax. The next day, we’re > back on the roller coaster! > It all comes to a head when homework needs to be done! > Academically, he is very bright and capable of doing the work. We have > him in a private school for "advanced" children so that he *is* > challenged. > But, he won’t apply himself and get it done. He whinges that it’s "not > fair" that he should have to do any. Or that he "can;t do it", and so > on. > We’re thinking of just letting him have his head and leaving him > totally alone to do it. That way he will sink or swim in class > according to his effort. But we’re reluctant to risk letting him > destroy his academic life by not doing his work. > On the rare occasions we get him to actually do the work, he admits to > getting "a buzz" from finishing it and getting it out of the way. He > admits that, if he concntrates, he has more time to play than when he > procrastinates and drags it out. > Now, to put it in some context, we’ve made allowances for the following > events over the last 18 months: > – I spent 12 months commuting between the UK and USA. > – We eventually moved to the USA (thus changing schools, etc) > – We have a 3 month old addition to the family > But having said that, our son says he *prefers* it here. He loves his > new school, the area, the weather, his friends. He also adores his new > sister. > We let him spend as much time on the phone to his friends and family in > the UK as he wants/needs so he doesn’t feel cut off. We’ve already had > one visit from family (we only moved over in February) with another two > planned in the next 6 months. I have enough air miles to pay for two > trips back to England, and he knows we’re going to use them. So he’s > not isolated. > But its getting to the point now where it has to be sorted for our own > sanity! > All genuine help gratefully received. > thanks > Keith > Before you buy.
Response:
> Right now your little boy needs your reassurance that you love him just > because he’s him
Actually the little man seeemed to me to be running around with an enormously inflated ego. The little cat who-swallowed-the-canary smirk, the abusive behavior. He seems to think he’s caught on to how to run the show. > I think that right now you need to step back and remember that this boy > is ONLY 8 YEARS OLD. There is no way that he is going to destroy > his academic life at this age
Really? At what age did you THINK the seeds of later school performance were planted? When did you THINK it would be easier to get him on track? Age 14? 16? 18? The time to learn how to study and consentrate now. Not later. It will just get harder and harder later.
Response:
My impression is that your son has figured out that he has options on things that should be requirements. Examples to follow.
> For the first 7 years he was an angel. Co-operative, responsible, > polite, hard-working, bright, happy, sensitive, and gentle. What more > could you ask? > Now, we have a monster in our midst. > He openly defies us, is rude
Don’t let him do that. Time outs are said to work wonders. >, torments his younger brother, sulks
Don’t let him do that. Do not give him the option of doing that. Stop him immediately when he starts, and forbid him from doing anything he wants to do until he behaves himself. You open doors for him yourself, by letting him get the reward of the bad behavior with no repercussions. > Praising good behaviour – goes to his head and he instantly reverts to > the "bad" behaviour.
Don’t let him. > Critiquing bad behaviour – he just smirks and ignores us.
Make him stop immediately. > Offering rewards for good behaviour – he’s not prepared to pay > the "price"
Then he can’t do anything else until he does the right thing. No food, no water, no tv, no fun. Put the ball in HIS court. When he is ready to act like a caring son and brother, he can take the rewards that come with family life. >, whatever that may be (e.g. making his bed each day, or > doing his homework).
YOU are the parent. It’s up to you to lead. YOU say what is going to happen and when. The boy doesn’t get an option. > Penalising bad behaviour (removing favourite toys, cancelling trips, > etc.) – He whinges, whines, sulks and complains. But doesn’t correct > his behaviour. > Sitting down to talk it through – this used to be all we needed. Now he > smirks, fidgets, refuses to look at us. Won’t talk to us, or even > listen quietly.
Then it’s "the corner" until he shapes up. > Every so often, he "gets his head straight" and the old child re- > surfaces, we have a lovely few days, and relax. The next day, we’re > back on the roller coaster! > It all comes to a head when homework needs to be done! > Academically, he is very bright and capable of doing the work. We have > him in a private school for "advanced" children so that he *is* > challenged. > But, he won’t apply himself and get it done. He whinges that it’s "not > fair" that he should have to do any. Or that he "can;t do it", and so > on. > We’re thinking of just letting him have his head
Ok, THERE is the gist of your situation with this boy. You are toying with just letting him do whatever he wants to do. In fact, you are giving him MORE options on more behavior that should be required. He bitched so much that he ultimately got rewarded for it. >and leaving him > totally alone to do it. That way he will sink or swim in class > according to his effort. But we’re reluctant to risk letting him > destroy his academic life by not doing his work.
He’s just a little boy! Of COURSE he’s going to pick the easier option if you give him one.
Response:
> It all comes to a head when homework needs to be done!
There has been a lot going on in your life to cause this type of problem, but the fact that the conflict centers around the homework, is probably a good indicator of what’s troubling your son. Right now your little boy needs your reassurance that you love him just because he’s him, not because he is the smartest kid at school, gets good grades, etc. With the appearance of a new baby, he needs to feel that his spot in the family is secure, not dependent on his performance. > destroy his academic life by not doing his work.
I think that right now you need to step back and remember that this boy is ONLY 8 YEARS OLD. There is no way that he is going to destroy his academic life at this age and I think that if he has the idea that this is possible, he is under way too much pressure for an 8 year old. Our school system has guidelines for home work that limits the teachers to 10 minutes of homework for each academic year (starting with first grade) so by the time the child is in the third grade a maximum of 30 minutes of homework is the rule. A child who is bright and "on task" at school is usually able to complete their "homework" done before they ever leave school, unless is it a project that requires preparation at home. Give your child a chance to be a child. Make sure he has free time to lay on his back in the grass and watch the clouds go by, or contemplate his toes. Forcing a child to be an over-achiever at such a tender age might get him into fancier prep-type schools, but you should weigh the consequences. You might find that any benefits gained really aren’t worth the price that your child has to pay. — Only my shrink knows for sure….
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Hi Keith, You know, I think you just perfectly described my current relationship/troubles with my 7 year old son. We too just had a baby 3.5 months ago, and I feel basicallys since the novelty of me being pregnant wore off was when a lot of this behaviour started. My guess, even before I saw your post, is that there is some jealousy and resentment about the baby(in both my case and your case). Of course you have to take my opinion for what it’s worth as I’m not a psychologist or anything!! LOL I can totally relate to everything you’ve mentioned in your post about praise causing bloaty head which leads to obnoxious behaviour, criticism even in the nicest way is taken as a total personal attack and leads to crying and shouting of "YOU DON"T LOVE ME" and a slammed bedroom door. etc etc etc…. He too defies us right in front of our faces. No has suddenly stopped meaning no to him and it turns into an hour long argument. I can’t really share any wisdom with you as we’re currently working on this ourselves. We just try to give him lots of attention, together and one on one when the baby’s sleeping or occupied by his wonderful discovery of his hands!! I just wanted to let you know that your’e not alone, and I really don’t think that there’s anything ‘wrong’ with your son and that he’s probably a wonderful kid…just a bit of the green eyed monster perhaps 
Hang in there and take care Michelle mom to Matthew(06/25/93) and Ryan(05/04/00)
Response:
> For the first 7 years he was an angel. Co-operative, responsible, > polite, hard-working, bright, happy, sensitive, and gentle. What more > could you ask? > Now, we have a monster in our midst. > He openly defies us, is rude, torments his younger brother, sulks, and > has the attention span of a goldfish. If he isn’t pre-pubescent, he’s > not going to survive his teens!
My guess is that it’s some or all of the following: 1. The baby sister. Just because he loves her doesn’t mean he doesn’t resent her as well. He may also be feeling he needs to be more grown-up, now he’s biggest brother, and yet not be quite happy doing it. If this is the case, more ‘baby time’ for him might help. Pick him up, if he’ll let you, read to him at night, and include him in things. 2. Culture shock. We moved to the US from India. In some settings, I found American boys define their manhood by being rude and rebellious. (Not true everywhere at all, but happens some places.) You sometimes see this on TV, too. And in some cases, it isn’t the kid is being rude and rebellious at all, it’s just that standards for polite kid behaviour are different. (For instance: as a kid in India, we were taught not to look an adult in the eye while being scolded, it was ’shameless.’ Then we had one Western teacher, and it drove her nuts! I can still hear her saying, *Look* at me when I’m talking to you!) If your son is adapting to different standards of behaviour, then he might not know where to draw the line for a bit. It may help to clarify that he can adapt his behaviour to his friends if he wants, but that at home the family’s standards were the same as always. (Next phase: "Nobody’s parents make them do that.") 3. Academic shock. US schools place more responsibility for getting stuff done, I think, than UK schools. It gives the kid more freedom as well. I’ve no idea if the school your child is in is typical in this respect. (I can still remember my kid telling me that the spelling test was just because the teacher wanted to give one, not because they were expected to know the spellings.) For some children, dealing with this change takes some adapting to. Perhaps meeting his home-room teacher with him, and talking of expectations, would help. 4. If the normal routines of the family have been disrupted, he might be stressed out by that. (There’s an interesting article in the Discover magazine, Aug or Sept I think, about families and stress.) It’s not a matter of logic, though everything you have said is very logical. If this is so, it should settle down as things stabilise. Perhaps it would help to delberately restore routines. Best of luck with all this Rupa
Response:
> For the first 7 years he was an angel. Co-operative, responsible, > polite, hard-working, bright, happy, sensitive, and gentle. What more > could you ask? > Now, we have a monster in our midst.
No, you have my daughter. Kindly return her and stop calling her a boy. ;-} She is also 8. She does so many of the things you described it is almost scary. I’m sure a lot of it has to do with all the big changes in the last year. But we all have to learn to deal with change. Nothing stays the same forever. I think you are doing a good job with making him comfortable with the change. I think a lot of it has to do with being 8 too. 8 seems to be the start of the time when a child doesn’t really know what is expected of him/her. They aren’t little any more, just ask ‘em. ;-} But at the same time, they aren’t anywhere near grown either. So one minute you have a person that can act responsibly and maturely. The next minute you have a 4 and a half foot two year old. Sometimes understanding the nature of the beast can help solve the problem. When Anna looses her mind and has a hissy fit, etc. I calmly ask her how old she is. She bats her very long eyelashes at me and replies "8!" Then I remind her that she outgrew that behavior when she was 3 and would she kindly knock it off before I have to treat her like a 2 year old and sit her on her bed for a nap. Screeching halt to the screaming and whining. Then I ask her how an eight year old would handle the situation. And she comes up with a much more polite and calm answer. The I tell her, great — do that instead. Usually that works. (Note: I said usually. lol) As for the homework, that is a big issue around here too. Our problem comes mostly from the fact that she is sometimes challenged at school, but not consistently and not always from the beginning of the school year. She has found out the last two years in school that she can get by and still make good grades without applying any real effort. Big problem. Could that be what’s going on with him too? I know you said he is in a school for gifted children. That is a great start. Could you ask the teacher to assign him extra things in areas he likes? The teacher last year was WONDERFUL about that. When she saw that Anna wasn’t putting any effort into things, she immediately took action. She talked to Anna and me and found out what Anna is really interested in. Then she began giving her extra research type assignments in those areas. (She really enjoys doing research on things!) The catch was she had to do all of the normal work to the best of her ability before she could do the fun assignments. That helped. Also, Ms. A is very independent. She likes to work on her own. (Sometimes because when she is doing her homework in her room with the door closed, that is the easiest way to sneak in the next chapter in the book she is reading instead.) So when I got email from the teacher saying that homework was being turned in half done, I put a screeching halt to that. She sat at the dining room table with me to do her homework. When she griped about it, I explained that she had been trusted to do it on her own and she had taken advantage of that trust, thus putting her in a position of having to prove herself. Now, she was going to have to do the homework next to me until *I* thought she could do it on her own again. (I laid it on thick about betraying trusts, etc.) Bingo!! Boy did that homework get done. I hope some of that helps. At least know you aren’t the only one with a strong willed, possibly possessed <bg> child. Sharon
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > For the first 7 years he was an angel. Co-operative, responsible, > polite, hard-working, bright, happy, sensitive, and gentle. What more > could you ask? > Now, we have a monster in our midst. > He openly defies us, is rude, torments his younger brother, sulks, and > has the attention span of a goldfish. If he isn’t pre-pubescent, he’s > not going to survive his teens! > We have tried a wide variety of approaches to resolving this (not all > at once, and we usually given each approach several weeks): > Praising good behaviour – goes to his head and he instantly reverts to > the "bad" behaviour. > Critiquing bad behaviour – he just smirks and ignores us. > Offering rewards for good behaviour – he’s not prepared to pay > the "price", whatever that may be (e.g. making his bed each day, or > doing his homework). > Penalising bad behaviour (removing favourite toys, cancelling trips, > etc.) – He whinges, whines, sulks and complains. But doesn’t correct > his behaviour. > Sitting down to talk it through – this used to be all we needed. Now he > smirks, fidgets, refuses to look at us. Won’t talk to us, or even > listen quietly. > Every so often, he "gets his head straight" and the old child re- > surfaces, we have a lovely few days, and relax. The next day, we’re > back on the roller coaster! > It all comes to a head when homework needs to be done! > Academically, he is very bright and capable of doing the work. We have > him in a private school for "advanced" children so that he *is* > challenged. > But, he won’t apply himself and get it done. He whinges that it’s "not > fair" that he should have to do any. Or that he "can;t do it", and so > on. > We’re thinking of just letting him have his head and leaving him > totally alone to do it. That way he will sink or swim in class > according to his effort. But we’re reluctant to risk letting him > destroy his academic life by not doing his work. > On the rare occasions we get him to actually do the work, he admits to > getting "a buzz" from finishing it and getting it out of the way. He > admits that, if he concntrates, he has more time to play than when he > procrastinates and drags it out. > Now, to put it in some context, we’ve made allowances for the following > events over the last 18 months: > – I spent 12 months commuting between the UK and USA. > – We eventually moved to the USA (thus changing schools, etc) > – We have a 3 month old addition to the family > But having said that, our son says he *prefers* it here. He loves his > new school, the area, the weather, his friends. He also adores his new > sister. > We let him spend as much time on the phone to his friends and family in > the UK as he wants/needs so he doesn’t feel cut off. We’ve already had > one visit from family (we only moved over in February) with another two > planned in the next 6 months. I have enough air miles to pay for two > trips back to England, and he knows we’re going to use them. So he’s > not isolated. > But its getting to the point now where it has to be sorted for our own > sanity! > All genuine help gratefully received. > thanks > Keith
I think you already hit the nail on the head: > "For the first 7 years he was an angel. Co-operative, responsible, > polite, hard-working, bright, happy, sensitive, and gentle. What more > could you ask?"
Give him some more time to get settled. Please don’t go running to a doctor for medication. Stay in close contact with his teacher and see if his school work or classroom attention is suffering. I think he’s spoiled a little, too. (ken) See ten photos of Sweetie, my new Chihuahua girl born 4-16-00: http://www.zyworld.com/maryland/test.htm To respond to this place (-) between x and d. Because e-mail can be altered electronically, the integrity of this communication cannot be guaranteed.
Response:
For the first 7 years he was an angel. Co-operative, responsible, polite, hard-working, bright, happy, sensitive, and gentle. What more could you ask? Now, we have a monster in our midst. He openly defies us, is rude, torments his younger brother, sulks, and has the attention span of a goldfish. If he isn’t pre-pubescent, he’s not going to survive his teens! We have tried a wide variety of approaches to resolving this (not all at once, and we usually given each approach several weeks): Praising good behaviour – goes to his head and he instantly reverts to the "bad" behaviour. Critiquing bad behaviour – he just smirks and ignores us. Offering rewards for good behaviour – he’s not prepared to pay the "price", whatever that may be (e.g. making his bed each day, or doing his homework). Penalising bad behaviour (removing favourite toys, cancelling trips, etc.) – He whinges, whines, sulks and complains. But doesn’t correct his behaviour. Sitting down to talk it through – this used to be all we needed. Now he smirks, fidgets, refuses to look at us. Won’t talk to us, or even listen quietly. Every so often, he "gets his head straight" and the old child re- surfaces, we have a lovely few days, and relax. The next day, we’re back on the roller coaster! It all comes to a head when homework needs to be done! Academically, he is very bright and capable of doing the work. We have him in a private school for "advanced" children so that he *is* challenged. But, he won’t apply himself and get it done. He whinges that it’s "not fair" that he should have to do any. Or that he "can;t do it", and so on. We’re thinking of just letting him have his head and leaving him totally alone to do it. That way he will sink or swim in class according to his effort. But we’re reluctant to risk letting him destroy his academic life by not doing his work. On the rare occasions we get him to actually do the work, he admits to getting "a buzz" from finishing it and getting it out of the way. He admits that, if he concntrates, he has more time to play than when he procrastinates and drags it out. Now, to put it in some context, we’ve made allowances for the following events over the last 18 months: – I spent 12 months commuting between the UK and USA. – We eventually moved to the USA (thus changing schools, etc) – We have a 3 month old addition to the family But having said that, our son says he *prefers* it here. He loves his new school, the area, the weather, his friends. He also adores his new sister. We let him spend as much time on the phone to his friends and family in the UK as he wants/needs so he doesn’t feel cut off. We’ve already had one visit from family (we only moved over in February) with another two planned in the next 6 months. I have enough air miles to pay for two trips back to England, and he knows we’re going to use them. So he’s not isolated. But its getting to the point now where it has to be sorted for our own sanity! All genuine help gratefully received. thanks Keith Before you buy.
Response:
WOW! That is alot of changes for an 8 year old. But of course it doesn’t mean that he now has the "right" to misbehave. Have you had him tested for ADD?Alot of kids that have ADD are also extremely smart they just have a hard time concentrating. We had our daughter tested for ADD (she is NOT hyper she just had a hard time concentrating) last year because her 1st grade teacher said that she seemed to be daydreaming alot and not finishing her work. Within 2 weeks of her being on a VERY low does of ritalin (I do NOT want to start a thread on ritalin) she was getting the best grades in class and finishing ALL of her work. Her teacher, my husband and myself were VERY happy with the results. Samantha also gained alot of self-confidence which was GREAT. Good luck! Cally – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > For the first 7 years he was an angel. Co-operative, responsible, > polite, hard-working, bright, happy, sensitive, and gentle. What more > could you ask? > Now, we have a monster in our midst. > He openly defies us, is rude, torments his younger brother, sulks, and > has the attention span of a goldfish. If he isn’t pre-pubescent, he’s > not going to survive his teens! > We have tried a wide variety of approaches to resolving this (not all > at once, and we usually given each approach several weeks): > Praising good behaviour – goes to his head and he instantly reverts to > the "bad" behaviour. > Critiquing bad behaviour – he just smirks and ignores us. > Offering rewards for good behaviour – he’s not prepared to pay > the "price", whatever that may be (e.g. making his bed each day, or > doing his homework). > Penalising bad behaviour (removing favourite toys, cancelling trips, > etc.) – He whinges, whines, sulks and complains. But doesn’t correct > his behaviour. > Sitting down to talk it through – this used to be all we needed. Now he > smirks, fidgets, refuses to look at us. Won’t talk to us, or even > listen quietly. > Every so often, he "gets his head straight" and the old child re- > surfaces, we have a lovely few days, and relax. The next day, we’re > back on the roller coaster! > It all comes to a head when homework needs to be done! > Academically, he is very bright and capable of doing the work. We have > him in a private school for "advanced" children so that he *is* > challenged. > But, he won’t apply himself and get it done. He whinges that it’s "not > fair" that he should have to do any. Or that he "can;t do it", and so > on. > We’re thinking of just letting him have his head and leaving him > totally alone to do it. That way he will sink or swim in class > according to his effort. But we’re reluctant to risk letting him > destroy his academic life by not doing his work. > On the rare occasions we get him to actually do the work, he admits to > getting "a buzz" from finishing it and getting it out of the way. He > admits that, if he concntrates, he has more time to play than when he > procrastinates and drags it out. > Now, to put it in some context, we’ve made allowances for the following > events over the last 18 months: > – I spent 12 months commuting between the UK and USA. > – We eventually moved to the USA (thus changing schools, etc) > – We have a 3 month old addition to the family > But having said that, our son says he *prefers* it here. He loves his > new school, the area, the weather, his friends. He also adores his new > sister. > We let him spend as much time on the phone to his friends and family in > the UK as he wants/needs so he doesn’t feel cut off. We’ve already had > one visit from family (we only moved over in February) with another two > planned in the next 6 months. I have enough air miles to pay for two > trips back to England, and he knows we’re going to use them. So he’s > not isolated. > But its getting to the point now where it has to be sorted for our own > sanity! > All genuine help gratefully received. > thanks > Keith > Before you buy.
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