Pure Parents

Question:

>I guess I am skeptical that anyone one book or professor has all the >answers. >A whole generation was rasied on Spock and I don’t necessarily think >that was a good thing. >Poopie

Spock had a lot of good ideas, but the fact is that the popularization of those ideas misinterpreted much of what he said. So parents do need to be careful and make sure that what is said is not going against their own instincts or what they read in their own child.. but the philosophy that children should be raised with respect is a good one, imo. Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown

Response:

> "Who cares what Faber and Mazlish would do? Are you so inept you can’t > figure out how to handle your own child and have to ask a stranger who > wrote a book for profit?"

Not all writers write completely for profit.  Many writers that I know, including myself, write to help others.  We spend relentless hours researching and interviewing to find answers for ourselves and others. We’re lucky to make peanuts off of it.  I do it because I love to do it…because it may help someone.  Please don’t assume that writers only write for money, because we hardly make any, if any at all, doing it. There are some that do make a great living at it, and I congratulate them.  But you’ll notice most of those people had some money to begin with.  It never hurts to find different viewpoints and I don’t think it makes a parent inept to look to a book.  A psyhologist in California may not have another resource to spread his advice to those living in Maine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This struck me, because I think that the sense of  ’ineptness’  many > parents feel is a result of lack of attention to their chidren. > They don’t…"know"…their children, because they never spent enough > time with them, and paid enough attention to what kind of people they > are, in the early years.  So they don’t know how to react, because they > haven’t a clue as to "who" they are dealing with. > My parents knew pretty much who we were….because they were there a lot > in the early years.  The personality and general character of a child > becomes very apparent during the first 5 years. > But one has to BE there to observe….not to mention paying > attention….. to who the child "tells" you he/she is. > I certainly never felt that my parents felt "inept".  They seemed to > have total confidence, and that was very re-assuring.  I trusted them. > I know now that they *did* make some mistakes…and they admit it.  And > they admit to having felt  ’inept’  at times.  But the mistakes were > minor, as was the sense of ineptness, compared with what I am reading > about here. > Very minor, in comparison to how well they handled most > everything…..most importantly in the sense of security they gave us. > But even more importantly….on how well they were able to assess "who > we were"….as people. > Because they paid great attention……and they loved doing it. > Best to all, > G22

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Obviously you haven’t read the book..  It shows.. >>Dorothy >I am wondering.  Do people really base their child rearing principle >on a book by a stranger wanting to make a profit? >Poopie Pants >I don’t think anyone should base their parenting *on a book,*   >Poopie…  However, the philosophy of child-rearing involved in >this book is one that I agree with.   Parents need to decide for >themselves how they feel about these things, but reading does >not hurt..  And it can help… >Like posts here, read, take what resonates with how you feel >about child-rearing.   And one thing that is true about this book >and others is that they are based solidly on research about child >development.  Parents today have only their own children to go by >or perhaps a few others they see..  Comparisons between children >on this small sample is usually not helpful, but knowing the range >of *typical* behaviors that are expected at any given age and stage >can help you feel better about your own child’s behavior. >Dorothy

I guess I am skeptical that anyone one book or professor has all the answers. A whole generation was rasied on Spock and I don’t necessarily think that was a good thing. Poopie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Who cares what Faber and Mazlish  would do?  Are you so inept you > can’t figure out how to handle your own child and have to ask a > stranger who wrote a book for profit? > The problem with many parents today is they have no spine.  They let > the little kids walk all over them and they grow up to be self > centered greedy brats who step on the right of others. >You’d like to make it a pissing contest. The young and especially teens >will beat your ass at it every time. If you do this you’ll just lose and >be very sorry. >Sincere parents had better find a better way. >Hint: Listen instead of talk!! Nobody does ANYTHING for "no reason"! >Steve

It works both way Steve.  There is a time to talk and there is a time to listen and that applies to kids too.  Sometimes they have to do the listening part. Poopie

Response:

>Have you actually read Faber and Mazlish, all the way through?  You’ve >accused them of being manipulative on one of their techniques, but for >the most part you echo many of their sentiments.

One problem that I have seen with virtually all of the "method books" is that, if a parent is punitive and controlling, the methods can be used to punitively control. If you read this or others of these books with that in mind, I think that you can see this. That is why the parents need to first "fix" themselves (to discover the inherent good in themselves, under all of the crap that has been dumped on them, growing up).  Once they do that, pretty much anything that they might tend to do raising kids will have a more positive result. — Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

Response:

>>Obviously you haven’t read the book..  It shows.. >Dorothy >I am wondering.  Do people really base their child rearing principle >on a book by a stranger wanting to make a profit? >Poopie Pants

I don’t think anyone should base their parenting *on a book,*   Poopie…  However, the philosophy of child-rearing involved in this book is one that I agree with.   Parents need to decide for themselves how they feel about these things, but reading does not hurt..  And it can help… Like posts here, read, take what resonates with how you feel about child-rearing.   And one thing that is true about this book and others is that they are based solidly on research about child development.  Parents today have only their own children to go by or perhaps a few others they see..  Comparisons between children on this small sample is usually not helpful, but knowing the range of *typical* behaviors that are expected at any given age and stage can help you feel better about your own child’s behavior. Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown

Response:

> Who cares what Faber and Mazlish  would do?  Are you so inept you > can’t figure out how to handle your own child and have to ask a > stranger who wrote a book for profit? > The problem with many parents today is they have no spine.  They let > the little kids walk all over them and they grow up to be self > centered greedy brats who step on the right of others.

You’d like to make it a pissing contest. The young and especially teens will beat your ass at it every time. If you do this you’ll just lose and be very sorry. Sincere parents had better find a better way. Hint: Listen instead of talk!! Nobody does ANYTHING for "no reason"! Steve

Response:

"Who cares what Faber and Mazlish would do? Are you so inept you can’t figure out how to handle your own child and have to ask a stranger who wrote a book for profit?" This struck me, because I think that the sense of  ’ineptness’  many parents feel is a result of lack of attention to their chidren. They don’t…"know"…their children, because they never spent enough time with them, and paid enough attention to what kind of people they are, in the early years.  So they don’t know how to react, because they haven’t a clue as to "who" they are dealing with.   My parents knew pretty much who we were….because they were there a lot in the early years.  The personality and general character of a child becomes very apparent during the first 5 years.   But one has to BE there to observe….not to mention paying attention….. to who the child "tells" you he/she is. I certainly never felt that my parents felt "inept".  They seemed to have total confidence, and that was very re-assuring.  I trusted them. I know now that they *did* make some mistakes…and they admit it.  And they admit to having felt  ’inept’  at times.  But the mistakes were minor, as was the sense of ineptness, compared with what I am reading about here. Very minor, in comparison to how well they handled most everything…..most importantly in the sense of security they gave us. But even more importantly….on how well they were able to assess "who we were"….as people. Because they paid great attention……and they loved doing it. Best to all, G22

Response:

Who cares what Faber and Mazlish  would do?  Are you so inept you can’t figure out how to handle your own child and have to ask a stranger who wrote a book for profit? The problem with many parents today is they have no spine.  They let the little kids walk all over them and they grow up to be self centered greedy brats who step on the right of others. Here is the advice. Grow a spine and simply do not tolerate hitting at all. He hits, there a consequence.  Make the consequence something important.  Kids act up in public like that, end the activity right then and there.  No threats no bargaining no mimby manby poo poo discussion about it. Kids want you to be strong not a limp noodle. Example: son and daughter thought they were going to fight about who got the front seat of the car.  I simply got out of the car and went in the house and didnt go.   Poopie Pants

Response:

> Who cares what Faber and Mazlish  would do?  Are you so inept you > can’t figure out how to handle your own child and have to ask a > stranger who wrote a book for profit?

Inept?  Perhaps I am.  However, I’m at least smart enough not to dismiss the advice and good ideas of strangers just because one of their motivations to write might be to make a profit. Funny, when someone’s been hit by a child, people seem to assume the parents are one of two things:  1) abusers who beat their kids–and from what I’ve read most such kids cower in fear and then turn into abusers later in life, rather than hit back, or 2) spineless cowards who let their kids walk all over them. The truth of the matter, PP, is that it’s a very complex situation, and I want to know people’s ideas for what’s the BEST way to handle it. Cathy Weeks Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Who cares what Faber and Mazlish  would do?  Are you so inept you > can’t figure out how to handle your own child and have to ask a > stranger who wrote a book for profit? >Inept?  Perhaps I am.  However, I’m at least smart enough not to dismiss >the advice and good ideas of strangers just because one of their >motivations to write might be to make a profit. >Funny, when someone’s been hit by a child, people seem to assume the >parents are one of two things:  1) abusers who beat their kids–and from >what I’ve read most such kids cower in fear and then turn into abusers >later in life, rather than hit back, or 2) spineless cowards who let >their kids walk all over them. >The truth of the matter, PP, is that it’s a very complex situation, and >I want to know people’s ideas for what’s the BEST way to handle it. >Cathy Weeks

Well duh Cathy!  I have two children and I am a Grandma so I think I have been there and done that. There is no one best way of handing anything in life. What is so complex about a kid hitting? Have you watched the South Park episode where all the kids in the town were on Ritalin? Grandma Poopie

Response:

>Obviously you haven’t read the book..  It shows.. >Dorothy

I am wondering.  Do people really base their child rearing principle on a book by a stranger wanting to make a profit? Poopie Pants – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>All that aside, what are some suggestions on handling the hitting and/or >>the balled fist? >Every time he balls a fist and threatens to hit, take away a >privilege, watching tv, grounding etc. >Every time he hits someone, take away 20% of his stuff, playstation, >toys whatever. >When he hit’s someone, just take the stuff away with no dialog, Just >tell him why he’s losing his stuff, no bargaining, no more comments. >Keep going until he’s left with just a mattress and bedclothes. >Maybe make a list of his privileges and stuff first and show him what >he will be losing when he breaks the rules. >Very important, be consistent, don’t go soft. No exceptions, if he >breaks the rules, he suffers the consequences and when you remove his >stuff, remove it for good, he should never get it back. If you go soft >you are doing more harm. >That being said, at the end of day spent at the zoo, perhaps being >tired and hungry and eating junk food throughout the day, I wouldn’t >expect a child to be anything other than cranky and rebellious.I’d >have a tough time taking a hard line with a child at that point. >There is no sound, no cry in all the world >that can be heard unless someone listens .. >source unknown

Response:

> > You’re supposed to UNDERSTAND why your children do and say things, not > merely react to them. You’re supposed to take your children’s ideas > and > feelings and reasons seriously, not merely combat them. > Steve > Steve, > Have you actually read Faber and Mazlish, all the way through?

Never heard of them, but anyone who falls for forced dualistic choices as a way to manipulate a child are cruel, crude, and wrong! > Anyway, the whole point of this, was that I started realizing that I > wanted G to to take responsibility for his own actions, and that I felt > many traditional punishments don’t do that.

Nobody wants to "take responsibility for their own actions", because all that is is the excuse another uses to impose their will on them. > I feel that children try out ALL behaviors (part of growing up), and > that my job is to encourage the "good" ones, discourage the "bad" ones. > and part of that isn’t mindless training, but to make sure the kid > understands WHY. > Cathy Weeks

Instead make sure that YOU know "why"!! Steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just wanted to mention that an hour was not and has never been > typical–in fact, we’ve never done it. The general rule has been 1 > minute for each year of age, 10 minutes for more severe (name-calling, > hitting, or throwing things) things.  I was so shocked by his raised > fist that instead of acting positively, I re-acted.  It has been in > hindsite that I didn’t feel like it was a good idea, either to confine > him for that extreme length of time, or use threats to get what I > wanted. > Cathy Weeks > It’s still abusive because it wastes precious moments of your child’s > life and because they know you’re a shallow creep for pretending it does > anything, which both iof you know it does not. It gives the child time > and motive to develop hatred of you, almost as if that is what you WANT > it to do??? > You’re supposed to UNDERSTAND why your children do and say things, not > merely react to them. You’re supposed to take your children’s ideas and > feelings and reasons seriously, not merely combat them. > Steve

Steve, Have you actually read Faber and Mazlish, all the way through?  You’ve accused them of being manipulative on one of their techniques, but for the most part you echo many of their sentiments. They advocate accepting and acknowledging ALL of a child’s feelings. The biggest argument against time-outs they give, is asking, what does the child do or gain from them?  Do they sit there thinking "oh, that was wrong, maybe I shouldn’t have done that." or do they think "Mom is such a jerk; I hate her!" or do they think "I must be horrible and awful."  They suggest that it’s probably either of the latter. Hmmmm….in one the child concentrates on how much they hate their parent, NOT on taking responsibility for their actions, and the other they internalize a bad attitude about themselves. I thought back to when I was a child, and was hit or otherwise arbitrarily punished.  I didn’t learn a damn thing, nor was it effective in either the long or short term.  One time I got slapped (my parents didn’t believe in it, but it happened occasionally), when I wasn’t holding still enough while mom was working on my ballet costume.  I must have been about 6.  I thought then (and still do) that it was unfair, and that I hadn’t done anything wrong.  I didn’t hold more still (mostly I cried and carried on), and if at my current age of 31, I still don’t feel it was deserved, then it must not have helped in the long-term either! Then when I was in the 6th grade, I brought home 2 Ds on my report card.  I got grounded for the entire quarter.  Do you think that helped AT ALL?  Nope. I just hated my parents for it.  I did get my grades up, but it was because my parents helped me with my homework, not because I couldn’t go out to play (I think the grounding only lasted for about 2 weeks, before my parents realized it was a stupid thing to do, and was really only done, because my mother was mad, not because it was effective or deserved). The ONE punishment that I remember that truly WAS effective, was the time, when I was in 7th grade, and I disappeared for an afternoon. Mom was supposed to take me to see Blue Lagoon; a movie I really wanted to see.  I went to play with some friends, was supposed to be back by 5:00, but we didn’t stay were I told her I’d be; she needed to ask me something (she was pretty good about not "checking up" up on me; it was a legitimate need, though I don’t remember any more what it was).  She couldn’t find me; and none of the mothers knew where any of us were. I got back by 7:00. Mom was quiet when I came home (that was a bad sign, she was a yeller when she got mad), and basically told me that I had not been where I had said I had be (a simple phone call to tell her I was changing locations would have been sufficient–she really was good about that), that none of the parents could find us, and I was two hours late.  She then informed me that she didn’t feel like taking me to see Blue Lagoon. She even apologized, and seemed sad over the whole thing. I was really, really upset, but it was one of the few times where I saw that my own rudeness was the cause, and that was partly why I was so upset.  I never let it happen again. Oddly enough, I’ve still never seen the movie, partly because EVERYONE says it was a bad movie, and not worth seeing! Anyway, the whole point of this, was that I started realizing that I wanted G to to take responsibility for his own actions, and that I felt many traditional punishments don’t do that. I feel that children try out ALL behaviors (part of growing up), and that my job is to encourage the "good" ones, discourage the "bad" ones. and part of that isn’t mindless training, but to make sure the kid understands WHY. Cathy Weeks Before you buy.

Response:

> It appears to me that a child acting in this way is in a great deal of > pain…..which results in rage….which results in violence, especially > to those that he feels have caused his pain and rage. > So where is the pain and rage coming from? > Divorce. > His whole world has been shattered and he is now a  ’visitor’  in 2 > homes.   He gets to ‘visit’ the parent that he lost….who now has > another life apart and separate from him.

Wellll….you’re ideas are good, even if they are bit off-base.  You see, G’s mom and dad split up when she was 3 months pregnant with him, but despite that, they made a commitment to being parent-partners and friends, and do the best they could to raise him together. I started dating his dad a month before G was born, and got to hold him when he was about 2 hours old.  (I’ve always gotten along well with his mom). So the world he is in now is the only one he’s ever known.  When he was a baby, they shared a house (Chris had the upper floor, Teresa the ground floor).  When he was about 2.5 years old, we started the shared custody, and he began spending every-other day with each parent, which has continued to the present day. The biggest problem with this arrangement, which is not exactly typical, is that of consistency, and because of that, we have regular family meetings to touch bases, so that we can keep things as consistent as possible between the two house holds. We’ve been told by scads of people that a) how wonderful; it’s not typical, but surely it’s better than the traditional custody arrangement of weeks with one parent, weekends with the other, and argumentative parents.  Split parents who actually get along, are friends, seem to be a rarity. or b) oh, don’t you think the traditional arrangment of weeks with one, weekends with the other would be better? I find it interesting that it: a) always comes in response to the positive events, and b) always comes when there is discussions of the problems.  I also find it interesting that the problems we have still occur, often, in the traditional arrangments.  I’ve also consulted a couple of psychologists, and both of them told me there is no evidence to suggest that the traditional arrangement is actually better, that kids raised in two households like G do fine (or better) as long as the parents work hard to be partners (we do). The way I look at is this: His mom and stepdad’s household is better in some ways, and ours is better in others.  He gets the best of both worlds (and possibly also the worst) this way. And it does seem to be working.  We have our problems like all families, but he’s a wonderful, neat kid. > I could imagine that such a child would feel…even if only > sub-conciously……that he just wasn’t "good enough" for the lost > parent to want to stay in the same house with him. > Let’s not forget…… > They are children. > Just some thoughts, > G22

Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Cutting this down, just to address the point. > >It’s the hitting and biting that we’re not sure how to handle.  We > are > >anti-hitting, so that’s not an option.  He’s not typically a biter. > He > >has threatened to hit his Dad and me a couple of times, by raising a > >balled fist.  At least one of the times he did it with his dad, it > was > >when Chris was buckling G’s seatbelt for him (G uses a booster seat, > and > >is unable to get the belt buckled himself).  Chris just ignored the > >fist, and continued buckling G’s seatbelt, and by the time he leaned > >away, G’s fist was down and non-threatening.  He’s done it to me a > >couple of times (threatened with a balled fist), and I basically told > >him that we didnt hit in this family, and that if he hit me, then > he’d > >spend an hour in time out. > Bad idea – an hour of time-out is excessive for a 6 year old in any > situation, imho.  And time-outs should only be used if the child > needs to control his emotions. Its agin to an adult who is angry, > counting to ten or isolating himself to calm down.  It should not be > used punitively at all.. > I just wanted to mention that an hour was not and has never been > typical–in fact, we’ve never done it. The general rule has been 1 > minute for each year of age, 10 minutes for more severe (name-calling, > hitting, or throwing things) things.  I was so shocked by his raised > fist that instead of acting positively, I re-acted.  It has been in > hindsite that I didn’t feel like it was a good idea, either to confine > him for that extreme length of time, or use threats to get what I > wanted. > Cathy Weeks

It’s still abusive because it wastes precious moments of your child’s life and because they know you’re a shallow creep for pretending it does anything, which both iof you know it does not. It gives the child time and motive to develop hatred of you, almost as if that is what you WANT it to do??? You’re supposed to UNDERSTAND why your children do and say things, not merely react to them. You’re supposed to take your children’s ideas and feelings and reasons seriously, not merely combat them. Steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It appears to me that a child acting in this way is in a great deal of > pain…..which results in rage….which results in violence, especially > to those that he feels have caused his pain and rage. > So where is the pain and rage coming from? > Divorce. > His whole world has been shattered and he is now a  ’visitor’  in 2 > homes.   He gets to ‘visit’ the parent that he lost….who now has > another life apart and separate from him. > I could imagine that such a child would feel…even if only > sub-conciously……that he just wasn’t "good enough" for the lost > parent to want to stay in the same house with him.

Could play a role – could be a factor Don’t know if you have kids. – But in my experience every kid tries it sooner or later. Kids just have to find out what works and what does not. And that brings hitting in sooner or later. Can’t tolerate it though IMO. You have to stop whatever activity you were doing and if you was on the train – go home. Under no circumstances hit back. That’s the only way to handle it IMO. Divorce can be confusing for a child. It also will subject him to different parenting styles. And they will try to find out what works and try to take advantage of it. Its what usually is called "getting bad habits from the ex-spouse". Can make parenting tough. You have any ideas on that? > Let’s not forget…… > They are children.

Never do – in any case – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> G22

Response:

It appears to me that a child acting in this way is in a great deal of pain…..which results in rage….which results in violence, especially to those that he feels have caused his pain and rage. So where is the pain and rage coming from? Divorce. His whole world has been shattered and he is now a  ’visitor’  in 2 homes.   He gets to ‘visit’ the parent that he lost….who now has another life apart and separate from him.   I could imagine that such a child would feel…even if only sub-conciously……that he just wasn’t "good enough" for the lost parent to want to stay in the same house with him. Let’s not forget…… They are children. Just some thoughts, G22  

Response:

G22. I think that you make a very good point here, but since you did not quote what I assume may have brought up this thought from the original thread,  I thought I would put that in and change the subject line because you have brought up a topic that is a good one to discuss in general. The original post from Cathy included this line: >My six-year-old stepson G was at the zoo with his mom, >stepdad, and his grandparents (my husband’s parents, actually).

and this one > However, when disciplined, he hit his mom, and tried to bite her.   >(I’m not sure how he was disciplined; this was all told to us by >Chris’s parents.)  This is not the first time he’s hit her. >It appears to me that a child acting in this way is in a great deal of >pain…..which results in rage….which results in violence, especially >to those that he feels have caused his pain and rage.

Absolutely true if the hitting has become a regular occurence certainly.. >So where is the pain and rage coming from? >Divorce.

I think that you are correct that this can be a source of pain and rage.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->His whole world has been shattered and he is now a  ’visitor’  in 2 >homes.   He gets to ‘visit’ the parent that he lost….who now has >another life apart and separate from him.   >I could imagine that such a child would feel…even if only >sub-conciously……that he just wasn’t "good enough" for the lost >parent to want to stay in the same house with him. >Let’s not forget…… >They are children. >Just some thoughts, >G22  

Given that the divorce is a fact of life, can I ask what you think would help the child to deal with this?   How would you comfort the child here if what you say is true? Remember that we cannot change the *fact* of the divorce in any particular case.. So what do we do? Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->All that aside, what are some suggestions on handling the hitting and/or >the balled fist? > Every time he balls a fist and threatens to hit, take away a > privilege, watching tv, grounding etc. > Every time he hits someone, take away 20% of his stuff, playstation, > toys whatever. > When he hit’s someone, just take the stuff away with no dialog, Just > tell him why he’s losing his stuff, no bargaining, no more comments. > Keep going until he’s left with just a mattress and bedclothes. > Maybe make a list of his privileges and stuff first and show him what > he will be losing when he breaks the rules. > Very important, be consistent, don’t go soft. No exceptions, if he > breaks the rules, he suffers the consequences and when you remove his > stuff, remove it for good, he should never get it back. If you go soft > you are doing more harm. > That being said, at the end of day spent at the zoo, perhaps being > tired and hungry and eating junk food throughout the day, I wouldn’t > expect a child to be anything other than cranky and rebellious.I’d > have a tough time taking a hard line with a child at that point.

That totally ignores WHY he did it! And if you ignore him enough he’ll finally shoot somebody. Instead ask him what he thinks, and do what he feels would be treating him nicely!! Steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Cutting this down, just to address the point. >It’s the hitting and biting that we’re not sure how to handle.  We are >anti-hitting, so that’s not an option.  He’s not typically a biter. He >has threatened to hit his Dad and me a couple of times, by raising a >balled fist.  At least one of the times he did it with his dad, it was >when Chris was buckling G’s seatbelt for him (G uses a booster seat, and >is unable to get the belt buckled himself).  Chris just ignored the >fist, and continued buckling G’s seatbelt, and by the time he leaned >away, G’s fist was down and non-threatening.  He’s done it to me a >couple of times (threatened with a balled fist), and I basically told >him that we didnt hit in this family, and that if he hit me, then he’d >spend an hour in time out. > Bad idea – an hour of time-out is excessive for a 6 year old in any > situation, imho.  And time-outs should only be used if the child > needs to control his emotions. Its agin to an adult who is angry, > counting to ten or isolating himself to calm down.  It should not be > used punitively at all..

I just wanted to mention that an hour was not and has never been typical–in fact, we’ve never done it. The general rule has been 1 minute for each year of age, 10 minutes for more severe (name-calling, hitting, or throwing things) things.  I was so shocked by his raised fist that instead of acting positively, I re-acted.  It has been in hindsite that I didn’t feel like it was a good idea, either to confine him for that extreme length of time, or use threats to get what I wanted. Cathy Weeks Before you buy.

Response:

>All that aside, what are some suggestions on handling the hitting and/or >the balled fist?

Every time he balls a fist and threatens to hit, take away a privilege, watching tv, grounding etc. Every time he hits someone, take away 20% of his stuff, playstation, toys whatever. When he hit’s someone, just take the stuff away with no dialog, Just tell him why he’s losing his stuff, no bargaining, no more comments. Keep going until he’s left with just a mattress and bedclothes. Maybe make a list of his privileges and stuff first and show him what he will be losing when he breaks the rules. Very important, be consistent, don’t go soft. No exceptions, if he breaks the rules, he suffers the consequences and when you remove his stuff, remove it for good, he should never get it back. If you go soft you are doing more harm. That being said, at the end of day spent at the zoo, perhaps being tired and hungry and eating junk food throughout the day, I wouldn’t expect a child to be anything other than cranky and rebellious.I’d have a tough time taking a hard line with a child at that point.

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Obviously you haven’t read the book..  It shows.. Dorothy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->All that aside, what are some suggestions on handling the hitting and/or >the balled fist? >Every time he balls a fist and threatens to hit, take away a >privilege, watching tv, grounding etc. >Every time he hits someone, take away 20% of his stuff, playstation, >toys whatever. >When he hit’s someone, just take the stuff away with no dialog, Just >tell him why he’s losing his stuff, no bargaining, no more comments. >Keep going until he’s left with just a mattress and bedclothes. >Maybe make a list of his privileges and stuff first and show him what >he will be losing when he breaks the rules. >Very important, be consistent, don’t go soft. No exceptions, if he >breaks the rules, he suffers the consequences and when you remove his >stuff, remove it for good, he should never get it back. If you go soft >you are doing more harm. >That being said, at the end of day spent at the zoo, perhaps being >tired and hungry and eating junk food throughout the day, I wouldn’t >expect a child to be anything other than cranky and rebellious.I’d >have a tough time taking a hard line with a child at that point.

There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown

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Cutting this down, just to address the point. >It’s the hitting and biting that we’re not sure how to handle.  We are >anti-hitting, so that’s not an option.  He’s not typically a biter.  He >has threatened to hit his Dad and me a couple of times, by raising a >balled fist.  At least one of the times he did it with his dad, it was >when Chris was buckling G’s seatbelt for him (G uses a booster seat, and >is unable to get the belt buckled himself).  Chris just ignored the >fist, and continued buckling G’s seatbelt, and by the time he leaned >away, G’s fist was down and non-threatening.  He’s done it to me a >couple of times (threatened with a balled fist), and I basically told >him that we didnt hit in this family, and that if he hit me, then he’d >spend an hour in time out.  

Bad idea – an hour of time-out is excessive for a 6 year old in any situation, imho.  And time-outs should only be used if the child needs to control his emotions. Its agin to an adult who is angry, counting to ten or isolating himself to calm down.  It should not be used punitively at all.. For the balled fist… Say, something that acknowledges his anger. He did not actually hit you.. So tell him he is not invisible and that you understand and accept that he *feels* angry and upset. That will generally defuse the moment and prevent him from hitting and it will let him know that it’s ok to be angry, but not to hit.. >He dropped his fist, but I’m not sure that threatening him (though I >was plenty willing to carry it out) was the best way to handle it.   >I’m no longer sure that time outs are the best way, either.

Nope they aren’t really… See above… At some neutral time when you see other children hitting or biting, point it out to the child and ask him how he thinks the children who are fighting feel when they are being hit or bitten.. Ask him what he thinks he might do when he wants to hit someone..  Write down a list of things he comes up with like *I can walk away,*  *I can say I’m mad*  Have him practice the words and actions in a role playing situation.. When you see him in a situation where he is getting along well, let him know that you saw it.. Say, you shared your toys nicely with xxxxx today…  or you gave me a wonderful hug today.. Noticing when he is doing the right thing will help him remember what the right things are..   If he hits you, stop him gently..  Say *hitting hurts,*  time-out.. And let him go… If he continues, you might say, I know you are angry, but we only use gentle hands to touch people… You can hit a pillow if you wish..  Give him things he can do that will substitute for acting anger out on the people around him.. >So what would the authors suggest we do about a child who has hit a >parent?  I know that public places shouldn’t matter, (or else the child >is likely to turn the public into a place to misbehave), but the reality >is that public places *do* matter, somewhat.  What do you do with a >child who hits a parent on the train at a zoo?

Of course, public places matter.  They matter because we think that our child’s behavior is a reflection of how we are perceived as parents.  That is why it is hard for us to accept behaviors that are perfectly acceptable to us normally when others around us in public disapprove…   But prevention is the first line of defense here.  No that a child who is tired will be more cranky and try to limit outings to the amount of time that will be easy for him to handle first of all. Then respond calmly and give him positive alternatives to the *bad* behavior no matter what that behavior is..  And ignore the *threat* of hitting since it is simply a sign that he’s angry and upset, so it is NOT a bad thing, it’s just a signal of his feelings. Also try humor to defuse a situation in public..  Use a funny voice *ah, son, don’t hit me, I may faint* in a heavy drawl or "what’s up doc, do ya tink I’m Elmer fudd? that ya need ta hit me?"   Anything you can do to make him forget the anger and laugh will probably be a good thing.. Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown

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My husband and I have just read _How to talk so kids will listen, and how to listen so kids will talk_, and it just isn’t always obvious how to apply their ideas to our own situation.  Those of you who have been using the book, can you give me some ideas? My six-year-old stepson G was at the zoo with his mom, stepdad, and his grandparents (my husband’s parents, actually). He was fine all the way through until the end, when he was cranky and tired.  Now, his mom is kind of a softy, and he does tend to misbehave more with her than he does with my husband and me.  However, I’m not writing about that.  I’m trying to figure out how any of us can handle what happened. He got really wild, and was hanging off the train (when it wasn’t moving), and wouldn’t listen when told to get into the train.  (That part is easy to use Mazlish and Faber’s ideas:  "Either get off the train, or sit inside the train; you choose.").  However, when disciplined, he hit his mom, and tried to bite her.  (I’m not sure how he was disciplined; this was all told to us by Chris’s parents.)  This is not the first time he’s hit her. It’s the hitting and biting that we’re not sure how to handle.  We are anti-hitting, so that’s not an option.  He’s not typically a biter.  He has threatened to hit his Dad and me a couple of times, by raising a balled fist.  At least one of the times he did it with his dad, it was when Chris was buckling G’s seatbelt for him (G uses a booster seat, and is unable to get the belt buckled himself).  Chris just ignored the fist, and continued buckling G’s seatbelt, and by the time he leaned away, G’s fist was down and non-threatening.  He’s done it to me a couple of times (threatened with a balled fist), and I basically told him that we didnt hit in this family, and that if he hit me, then he’d spend an hour in time out.  He dropped his fist, but I’m not sure that threatening him (though I was plenty willing to carry it out) was the best way to handle it.  I’m no longer sure that time outs are the best way, either. So what would the authors suggest we do about a child who has hit a parent?  I know that public places shouldn’t matter, (or else the child is likely to turn the public into a place to misbehave), but the reality is that public places *do* matter, somewhat.  What do you do with a child who hits a parent on the train at a zoo? I’ve read not just the How to listen book, but also liberated familes, and the how to listen so kids will learn (I was really impressed by the authors!).  I’m getting ready to re-read at least one of them, because what happened was that I read the books, thought, gee, these make so much sense, and then pretty much went back to my old ways (the 1-2-3 magic time-out method was so much easier to implement, not just agree with, even if I now have my doubts). My husband, who was initially turned off by the descriptive language in How to talk, once he got all the way through the book, REALLY liked it. G’s mom has also read it (or is reading it; not sure if she’s finished it yet) and really likes what she’s read so far.  It’s gotten easier now that he’s read it, because it’s easier for us to work as a team, rather than have the situation of me just trying to offer him suggestions (since at the time I had read it and he hadn’t). All that aside, what are some suggestions on handling the hitting and/or the balled fist? Cathy Weeks Before you buy.

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