Pure Parents

Question:

I like some of the twists and turns of this thread, it is bringing out a lot of interesting viewpoints.  I hope the following does not sound like I am picking on Kaalee or Teresa, they have simply expressed viewpoints very well that I know are shared in the NG.  Thank you both. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Think about society as a whole now and how >it was then? Why the big difference?  What are parents doing differently on >such a wide scale that could be causing the change.  Personally, I think it >is the "positive" discipline push that has occurred over the past 20 or so >years. MHO >I think you’ve made some huge jumps in logic here. There have been all kinds >of changes in our society over the past 20 or so years: >- increased numbers of women in the work force >- changing divorce laws and rising divorce rates >- dramatic increase in hours children spend watching TV >- increased availability of violent video games for children >- widespread media coverage of issues such as presidential corruption, >sexual misbehaviour by preachers and priests, and other behaviours by those >who are supposed to be in positions of respect and authority >to name just a few. Any one of these could (I’m not saying any of them >actually are) have some significant effects on children’s behaviours. >These changes are all much more widespread than the decrease in spanking or >physical punishment of children, which (as far as I know) is still very >common.

—– Lots of books, magazines and television air time are going into telling us that "something has changed" in the way children are fitting into society. In these two posts there is a very nice presentation of two ways that people explain the less than wonderful results being reported. 1- The parents have stopped teaching their children to handle the limits of society. 2- Society has changed without help from the parents, and they are being blamed for things that they did not create. Would a parent who says NO to the society induced stresses like ones listed above be doing their children a favor, or acting in a "controlling and authoritative" manner? – - My television has an off switch and it stays in that position most of the time.  The video games are only allowed if I can play them too. >I really do feel you are jumping to the wrong conclusions. I have worked >with children and teens involved in criminal behaviour and other serious >behaviour problems, and never came across one who was not spanked or >physically punished by his or her parents. However, I know that people would >see these youth and make comments like "what he needs is a good spanking" – >when actually those teens had experienced many spankings.

This leap to a conclusion is at least as far as the first.   If spanking rates have not really changed, and behavior modification through both reward and punishment are still the norm for most parents, then what are you seeing as the "cause" of increased numbers of children getting into criminal behavior? Other commentators have picked everything from "disillusionment with Viet Nam" or "racism"  to "overly permissive parents" or "overly controlling parents". >The kids I know who have been raised without punishment are a pleasure to be >around. My kids are in their teens and early twenties, and so I know a lot >of kids in this age group, and this is where the difference seems to be most >obvious.

I agree that many kids are a joy to be around as they cross into the late teens and adult stages.  I happen to know more good kids that were raised with punishment than good kids raised without it.  Mine are not there yet, but I am looking forward to it. Wouldn’t it be fair however if you are going to list society problems for bad kids, that we at least give a nod to society support and encouragement? How about: — Religious communities, both as an extended family support "village" and for clearly stated codes of conduct and ethics — Good teachers, even if we complain about the bad ones, most people have some good ones — Neighborhoods, where kids from several families can run and play together (yes there are bad neighborhoods) — Team sports, they teach competition and trying again — Positive television (Mr. Rogers, Lamb Chop, Magic School Bus) — Kid social groups (YMCA, 4-H, Grange, Boy/Girl Scouts) — Role models, although they are harder to find, there are still a few. I am sure I haven’t begun to hit even the major groups (I left out the Red Cross and Fire Fighters for instance . > They have NEVER gotten it for repeating bad language.  They are > told DON’T SAY THAT AGAIN and they don’t because they know the consequences. > Once they tasted vinegar, all I need to do is mention it and they stop the > behavior.  So, tell me what is so abusive with this method?

Vinegar, broccoli, meat loaf, taking away a toy, not going to a friend’s party, loooonnnnggg talkings to, separating kids, time out, sitting in a corner, missing Gymnastics, not swimming today, unplug the TV, etc. Pick your own "strong consequence". I like the idea that a parent CAN DO SOMETHING to corrects a behavior that they think is unacceptable to them and to society in general. <><><> I haven’t really settled on a handle, "talks too much" is one that seems to be applied frequently.

Response:

janh wrote >That’s great – I’m glad your children turned out this way. It’s alsogood that >they were the kind of kids that obviously responded to >gentleness.  What about kids who are just aggressive, mischievous >and rebellious by nature?  Please do not tell me that this only >happens if a parent doesn’t give them respect, or gentleness. >Many parents will tell you otherwise.

I think you’d be surprised if you met my kids. They are active, curious, mischievous, irreverant, and not especially interested in listening to authority just because someone is in a certain position over them. My oldest son and my third child in particular are what I would call "persistent." When they want something, they don’t give up. I often tell people the story of Matthew (my oldest) and the donuts. I had been asked to do a presentation at our local hospital, and brought Matthew, then a toddler, and his baby sister with me. On our way to the presentation room, we went through the cafeteria – and he saw donuts. He started to ask for donuts. I had no money with me and no time to get him a donut, but my explanations didn’t do it. We went into the room. I tried to get Matt settled with the things I had brought, but he continued to cry for donuts. I gave my presentation (fortunately I had a microphone!) and tended to him while changing slides on the projector (baby was in a sling). Then we left, Matthew still fussing. All the way home in the car he asked for donuts; just as we turned into the driveway he fell asleep. I carried him in, he slept for an hour, and when he woke up his first word was "donut." So he wasn’t the easy child you perhaps imagine. All the same, I think treating him with the same gentleness and respect I would treat any other child is extremely important. I have also worked with and provided care for children who have been abused and neglected. Many of these children are extremely aggressive and have significant behaviour problems. In my province, any kind of physical punishment of foster children is not permitted. It is the persistent, gentle, respectful care that can actually make a difference in these children’s lives. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My parents definitely felt the need to "control" sister B, >especially when she was a teenager.  Good common sense >was not one of her strong points.  She *would* stay out >all night, drinking and drugging if they did not control her. >If I have to make a choice between "controlling" my kid, >and allowing them to make "those" mistakes, well – I choose >control.  At least until they are of legal age.  Then they >can truly make their own decisions, paying the price themselves. >While the family will suffer emotionally from the bad >decisions, we will not have the financial burdens on top of >the emotional ones.  I do not believe it is very fair for >one family member to take food out of the rest of the >family’s mouth to pay for their behavior, nor does it set >a good example. >Now, one might think "perhaps this type of child needs help". >Not if they do not think their behavior is a problem.  Some >kids do not.  Some adults do not.

I guess I just disagree with you about this. I think that someone who would deliberately harm themself – for example, with alcohol and drug abuse, as you describe – is in need of some help. I don’t think this is much different from someone who uses a knife to slash his or her wrists. I don’t believe that people whose needs are met and who are mentally healthy will deliberately harm themselves. Teresa

Response:

> >>Ever since the big push towards not spanking children and using other >>"positive" methods of discipline, the kids of today have lost respect for >>authority and adults in general. > Doesn’t every new generation of parents believe that the previous generation of > children were so much more behaved and respectful and unspoiled? > L.C.

  Probably so…Do you think that child behavior has not changed? Or were you just noting the speculation? I, along with every one of my friends, co-workers, siblings, etc…have been commenting for quite some time the difference in behavior today. I *never* saw anything like what we are seeing now with kids – in schools, as well as public areas.  OK – maybe *never* is pushing it, but I cannot remember the violence, or disrespect being as public as it is now.  nor can my friends, neighbors,peers, etc.  Sometimes I wonder how much effect media has on it all? Where I lived, by the time we heard about the violence in a big city school, it was old news, and not worth copying. JH

Response:

"I really do feel you are jumping to the wrong conclusions. I have worked with children and teens involved in criminal behaviour and other serious behaviour problems, and never came across one who was not spanked or physically punished by his or her parents. However, I know that people would see these youth and make comments like "what he needs is a good spanking" – when actually those teens had experienced many spankings.                                                           " Excellent, excellent point, Teresa..I have the pleasure with working with these types too and have recognized the pattern of authoritarian parenting (spanking, taught to blindly obey authority) within these ranks. IT is ironic that many people do say (as you mentioned) "If only those kids were shown who is boss..or if they had only had a good spank–or when I was young, all you needed was a good spank to keep you in line"…*sigh* Cheers, C

Response:

>>Ever since the big push towards not spanking children and using other >"positive" methods of discipline, the kids of today have lost respect for >authority and adults in general.

Doesn’t every new generation of parents believe that the previous generation of children were so much more behaved and respectful and unspoiled? L.C.

Response:

> I guess it all comes down to the fact that this is the way I & my husband > were both raised.  We both (as well as our siblings) have GREAT respect and > trust for our parents.  Therefore, as far as the idea of our way of > discipline hurting the trust and respect for each other, I don’t see it.

I have no doubt that you trust and respect your parents; I love and respect mine, and I was spanked. However, my respect is given *in spite of*, not *because of* the punishments. I know that most ‘old-fashioned’ punitive parents also do a lot of loving and positive things for their children, and I think they earn their children’s regard for that reason. However, just because a child doesn’t grow up to hate their parents or murder the neighbors, you can’t assume that no damage was done, > Ever since the big push towards not spanking children and using other > "positive" methods of discipline, the kids of today have lost respect for > authority and adults in general.  (I am not referring to spanking in anger.) > I would bet that the majority of the parents in here that support no spanking > or "physical" discipline of ANY kind, were spanked by their parents.

You’d win that bet. As recently as 1996, IIRC, polls showed that *90%* of parents still spank their kids. Which is why your argument that "positive (permissive) parenting=lack of discipline & social chaos" just doesn’t wash, in my opinion. It is true that in the last 20 years or so, most child development experts and researchers have been urging parents to avoid punitive parenting methods, especially corporal punishment. Unfortunately, however, most parents seem to be sticking with the methods they learned from their parents. > (I DO > understand the parent that was physically abused by their parents taking a > stand in the opposite direction.) Think about society as a whole now and how > it was then? Why the big difference?  What are parents doing differently on > such a wide scale that could be causing the change.  Personally, I think it > is the "positive" discipline push that has occurred over the past 20 or so > years.  MHO

There is no question that U.S. society has changed a lot in the last 30 or 40 years; whether that equates to a loss of ‘respect for authority’ is a matter of opinion. One big change that *I* see is a change in the skill set needed for negotiating day-to-day life and for success in the workplace. For example, I believe that modern society places more emphasis on flexibility, creativity, initiative and self-discipline than it ever has before. My theory (happily unencumbered by any hard evidence) is that if more people seem  adrift and undisciplined these days, it is unlikely to be caused by "positive parenting" since few adults were parented in that way. I think it is more likely to be due to the fact that the old authoritation, punitive style of parenting *actively discourages* development of the life skills needed for modern society. As I said, I have no evidence to back this up. However, considering that most parents still use corporal punishment, and the fact that c.p. has consistently been shown to correlate with *increases* in anti-social behavior, I think my theory fits the facts better than yours does. MHO. Laura Uerling

Response:

>I guess it all comes down to the fact that this is the way I & my husband >were both raised.  We both (as well as our siblings) have GREAT respect and >trust for our parents. Therefore, as far as the idea of our way of >discipline hurting the trust and respect for each other, I don’t see it.

I think that much of this depends on the temperament of the child. Some are more sensitive than others. It’s also true that even when children are abused by their parents, for example, most will still feel a lot of love for their parents. They will often say things like "I deserved it" and "they wouldn’t have done it if I hadn’t been bad" even when the abuse was extremely severe. So these abused children still love and respect their parents, but there are still negative and harmful effects from the abuse. (I am not saying here that you have abused your children. I am using this as an example.) These kids may still respect their parents, but it is often at some cost to their own self-esteem. They see themselves as so bad that they could only be kept in control by their parent’s harsh methods. >Ever since the big push towards not spanking children and using other >"positive" methods of discipline, the kids of today have lost respect for >authority and adults in general.

I’m not sure this is entirely a bad thing. In the past, many things were swept under the carpet in the name of "respect" for authority or adults. Look at the children who were sexually abused by priests and teachers, for example, over the years but were afraid to come forward because they felt they had to respect those people. I want my children to respect those who deserve respect. I want them to question authority, not just obey it blindly. I think the second World War taught us that lesson.  (I am not referring to spanking in anger.) >I would bet that the majority of the parents in here that support no spanking >or "physical" discipline of ANY kind, were spanked by their parents. (I DO >understand the parent that was physically abused by their parents taking a >stand in the opposite direction.) Think about society as a whole now and how >it was then? Why the big difference?  What are parents doing differently on >such a wide scale that could be causing the change.  Personally, I think it >is the "positive" discipline push that has occurred over the past 20 or so >years. MHO

I think you’ve made some huge jumps in logic here. There have been all kinds of changes in our society over the past 20 or so years: – increased numbers of women in the work force – changing divorce laws and rising divorce rates – dramatic increase in hours children spend watching TV – increased availability of violent video games for children – widespread media coverage of issues such as presidential corruption, sexual misbehaviour by preachers and priests, and other behaviours by those who are supposed to be in positions of respect and authority to name just a few. Any one of these could (I’m not saying any of them actually are) have some significant effects on children’s behaviours. These changes are all much more widespread than the decrease in spanking or physical punishment of children, which (as far as I know) is still very common. I really do feel you are jumping to the wrong conclusions. I have worked with children and teens involved in criminal behaviour and other serious behaviour problems, and never came across one who was not spanked or physically punished by his or her parents. However, I know that people would see these youth and make comments like "what he needs is a good spanking" – when actually those teens had experienced many spankings. The kids I know who have been raised without punishment are a pleasure to be around. My kids are in their teens and early twenties, and so I know a lot of kids in this age group, and this is where the difference seems to be most obvious. Teresa

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > laura j uerling wrote > kaalee wrote >: It appears that you had to tell you son quite a few times before he > stopped. >: I want to say that between my 3 girls I have used vinegar about 5 times. > My >: 9 yr old has had it twice, my 8 yr old has had it twice and my 5 year old > has >: had it once.  They have NEVER gotten it for repeating bad language.  They > are >: told DON’T SAY THAT AGAIN and they don’t because they know the > consequences. >: Once they tasted vinegar, all I need to do is mention it and they stop > the >: behavior.  So, tell me what is so abusive with this method? >Legally, I’m sure this method is not considered abusive, but I consider >it so for several reasons. It is unnecessary and unnecessarily punitive. >It abuses the trust and respect that should exist between a parent and >child. Pas87 and I have and countless others have managed to teach our >children not to swear without forcing them to ingest anything unpleasant, >and IMO a few extra repetitions of "it is not polite to use that word" is >well worth it. >I think what bothers me most about this method is that it is emblematic >of a parenting style that seems to emphasize punishment and ‘obediance’ >(i.e. control) rather than trust and respect. I apologize in advance if >I’m misremembering, but weren’t you one of those suggesting that babies >who wiggle at diapering time should be ’swatted’ to keep them still? I >ask again, *why* use such hurtful methods when they are not necessary? > I agree with you, Laura. Being a parent, in my opinion, is not about forcing > kids to do what we want them to, whether it’s by "swatting" them or making > them drink unpleasant liquids or any other methods. > As the mother of four kids – two still in their teens and two now in their > early twenties – I have watched many kids who were raised this way who > generally obey when they are small, out of fear of the punishment. But then > the day hits when they no longer care about being swatted or being punished, > and then what happens? So often that "obedient" little child becomes a > teenager who is finally able to express the anger and resentment he or she > has been feeling for many years, and then there are huge problems. Not > always, of course. But quite often. > I am, at 5′2", the shortest in my family – two of my sons are over six feet. > As they grew, I was glad that I had done my best to treat them with > gentleness and respect when I was bigger than them – because they treat me > the same way now they are bigger than me. > Teresa

That’s great – I’m glad your children turned out this way. It’s alsogood that they were the kind of kids that obviously responded to gentleness.  What about kids who are just aggressive, mischievous and rebellious by nature?  Please do not tell me that this only happens if a parent doesn’t give them respect, or gentleness. Many parents will tell you otherwise. My best examples are my twin sisters.  Sister A (for Angel) responded to gentle words.  As a toddler, she was the loving child, she shared her toys without a fight, if she tried to touch an "untouchable", a "no – no, don’t touch" quickly prompted her to leave said untouchable alone.  Sister B (for Bad is Better) was a thrill seeker.  "No" meant "Yes" and "Yes" meant "More".  Not only would she touch the untouchable, she would bang it on the table just for kicks! She would take other’s toys just to hear them cry.  Once they cried, she would grin smugly, and drop the toy.  As teenagers, A was an introvert, B was an extrovert.  B wanted to run with the bad crowd.  She enjoyed the thrill.  A would rather stay home and read a good book. My parents definitely felt the need to "control" sister B, especially when she was a teenager.  Good common sense was not one of her strong points.  She *would* stay out all night, drinking and drugging if they did not control her. If I have to make a choice between "controlling" my kid, and allowing them to make "those" mistakes, well – I choose control.  At least until they are of legal age.  Then they can truly make their own decisions, paying the price themselves. While the family will suffer emotionally from the bad decisions, we will not have the financial burdens on top of the emotional ones.  I do not believe it is very fair for one family member to take food out of the rest of the family’s mouth to pay for their behavior, nor does it set a good example. Now, one might think "perhaps this type of child needs help". Not if they do not think their behavior is a problem.  Some kids do not.  Some adults do not. JH

Response:

I guess it all comes down to the fact that this is the way I & my husband were both raised.  We both (as well as our siblings) have GREAT respect and trust for our parents.  Therefore, as far as the idea of our way of discipline hurting the trust and respect for each other, I don’t see it. Ever since the big push towards not spanking children and using other "positive" methods of discipline, the kids of today have lost respect for authority and adults in general.  (I am not referring to spanking in anger.) I would bet that the majority of the parents in here that support no spanking or "physical" discipline of ANY kind, were spanked by their parents. (I DO understand the parent that was physically abused by their parents taking a stand in the opposite direction.) Think about society as a whole now and how it was then? Why the big difference?  What are parents doing differently on such a wide scale that could be causing the change.  Personally, I think it is the "positive" discipline push that has occurred over the past 20 or so years.  MHO – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Your response to my earlier message is gone from my server, so I’ll > respond to this message instead. > : > I don’t agree with using vinegar or washing a child’s mouth out with soap. > : > To me, this is abusive. > : If I told you that my girls hated the way broccoli tasted, and I told you > : that I made them taste broccoli when they used foul language, would that be > : abuse? I do understand that some could feel that using soap would be abusive. > :  That is one reason we were uncomfortable with using that method. > As a matter of fact, yes, I do feel that forcing them to ingest > something they don’t like for reasons of punishment is abusive. No doubt > something–like soap–that might make them sick or harm them would be worse, > but that’s hardly a recommendation. I personally prefer to use a higher > standard than ’causes no immediate harm’ when evaluating methods to use > when interacting with my children. > And in case you are inclined to bring in the ‘bad-tasting medicine’ > example, IMO there is a big difference between the two cases. The > purpose of medicine is to help the child, and the fact that some > medicine tastes bad is an unfortunate side-effect. With your ‘vinegar > method’, the fact that it tastes bad is the reason you use it! Whether > you want to admit it or not, it is being used as punishment. > <snipped> > : It appears that you had to tell you son quite a few times before he stopped. > : I want to say that between my 3 girls I have used vinegar about 5 times.  My > : 9 yr old has had it twice, my 8 yr old has had it twice and my 5 year old has > : had it once.  They have NEVER gotten it for repeating bad language.  They are > : told DON’T SAY THAT AGAIN and they don’t because they know the consequences. > : Once they tasted vinegar, all I need to do is mention it and they stop the > : behavior.  So, tell me what is so abusive with this method? > So, the fact that it ‘worked’ quickly and your children fear a > repetition is all you need to know about this method’s efficacy and > safety? What would you have done if it hadn’t worked? > Legally, I’m sure this method is not considered abusive, but I consider > it so for several reasons. It is unnecessary and unnecessarily punitive. > It abuses the trust and respect that should exist between a parent and > child. Pas87 and I have and countless others have managed to teach our > children not to swear without forcing them to ingest anything unpleasant, > and IMO a few extra repetitions of "it is not polite to use that word" is > well worth it. > I think what bothers me most about this method is that it is emblematic > of a parenting style that seems to emphasize punishment and ‘obediance’ > (i.e. control) rather than trust and respect. I apologize in advance if > I’m misremembering, but weren’t you one of those suggesting that babies > who wiggle at diapering time should be ’swatted’ to keep them still? I > ask again, *why* use such hurtful methods when they are not necessary? > Laura Uerling

Response:

laura j uerling wrote kaalee wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->: It appears that you had to tell you son quite a few times before he stopped. >: I want to say that between my 3 girls I have used vinegar about 5 times. My >: 9 yr old has had it twice, my 8 yr old has had it twice and my 5 year old has >: had it once.  They have NEVER gotten it for repeating bad language.  They are >: told DON’T SAY THAT AGAIN and they don’t because they know the consequences. >: Once they tasted vinegar, all I need to do is mention it and they stop the >: behavior.  So, tell me what is so abusive with this method? >Legally, I’m sure this method is not considered abusive, but I consider >it so for several reasons. It is unnecessary and unnecessarily punitive. >It abuses the trust and respect that should exist between a parent and >child. Pas87 and I have and countless others have managed to teach our >children not to swear without forcing them to ingest anything unpleasant, >and IMO a few extra repetitions of "it is not polite to use that word" is >well worth it. >I think what bothers me most about this method is that it is emblematic >of a parenting style that seems to emphasize punishment and ‘obediance’ >(i.e. control) rather than trust and respect. I apologize in advance if >I’m misremembering, but weren’t you one of those suggesting that babies >who wiggle at diapering time should be ’swatted’ to keep them still? I >ask again, *why* use such hurtful methods when they are not necessary?

I agree with you, Laura. Being a parent, in my opinion, is not about forcing kids to do what we want them to, whether it’s by "swatting" them or making them drink unpleasant liquids or any other methods. As the mother of four kids – two still in their teens and two now in their early twenties – I have watched many kids who were raised this way who generally obey when they are small, out of fear of the punishment. But then the day hits when they no longer care about being swatted or being punished, and then what happens? So often that "obedient" little child becomes a teenager who is finally able to express the anger and resentment he or she has been feeling for many years, and then there are huge problems. Not always, of course. But quite often. I am, at 5′2", the shortest in my family – two of my sons are over six feet. As they grew, I was glad that I had done my best to treat them with gentleness and respect when I was bigger than them – because they treat me the same way now they are bigger than me. Teresa

Response:

> Okay, am I weird or what?  I have always loved the taste of vinegar and > would drink it straight from the bottle as a child (small sips of > course).  I guess the "vinegar method" of punishment would not have > worked too well with me. > ~Jan

No, Jan, it obviously wouldn’t have worked for you.  :o)  But as for your question, are you weird?  Well, maybe…. :O)

Response:

Your response to my earlier message is gone from my server, so I’ll respond to this message instead.

: > I don’t agree with using vinegar or washing a child’s mouth out with soap. : > To me, this is abusive. : If I told you that my girls hated the way broccoli tasted, and I told you : that I made them taste broccoli when they used foul language, would that be : abuse? I do understand that some could feel that using soap would be abusive. :  That is one reason we were uncomfortable with using that method. As a matter of fact, yes, I do feel that forcing them to ingest something they don’t like for reasons of punishment is abusive. No doubt something–like soap–that might make them sick or harm them would be worse, but that’s hardly a recommendation. I personally prefer to use a higher standard than ’causes no immediate harm’ when evaluating methods to use when interacting with my children. And in case you are inclined to bring in the ‘bad-tasting medicine’ example, IMO there is a big difference between the two cases. The purpose of medicine is to help the child, and the fact that some medicine tastes bad is an unfortunate side-effect. With your ‘vinegar method’, the fact that it tastes bad is the reason you use it! Whether you want to admit it or not, it is being used as punishment. <snipped> : It appears that you had to tell you son quite a few times before he stopped. : I want to say that between my 3 girls I have used vinegar about 5 times.  My : 9 yr old has had it twice, my 8 yr old has had it twice and my 5 year old has : had it once.  They have NEVER gotten it for repeating bad language.  They are : told DON’T SAY THAT AGAIN and they don’t because they know the consequences. : Once they tasted vinegar, all I need to do is mention it and they stop the : behavior.  So, tell me what is so abusive with this method? So, the fact that it ‘worked’ quickly and your children fear a repetition is all you need to know about this method’s efficacy and safety? What would you have done if it hadn’t worked? Legally, I’m sure this method is not considered abusive, but I consider it so for several reasons. It is unnecessary and unnecessarily punitive. It abuses the trust and respect that should exist between a parent and child. Pas87 and I have and countless others have managed to teach our children not to swear without forcing them to ingest anything unpleasant, and IMO a few extra repetitions of "it is not polite to use that word" is well worth it. I think what bothers me most about this method is that it is emblematic of a parenting style that seems to emphasize punishment and ‘obediance’ (i.e. control) rather than trust and respect. I apologize in advance if I’m misremembering, but weren’t you one of those suggesting that babies who wiggle at diapering time should be ’swatted’ to keep them still? I ask again, *why* use such hurtful methods when they are not necessary? Laura Uerling

Response:

Okay, am I weird or what?  I have always loved the taste of vinegar and would drink it straight from the bottle as a child (small sips of course).  I guess the "vinegar method" of punishment would not have worked too well with me. ~Jan

Response:

> I don’t agree with using vinegar or washing a child’s mouth out with soap.  To > me, this is abusive.

If I told you that my girls hated the way broccoli tasted, and I told you that I made them taste broccoli when they used foul language, would that be abuse? I do understand that some could feel that using soap would be abusive.  That is one reason we were uncomfortable with using that method. > Both of my sons had their times of using bad words and it didn’t take long to > correct it.  I explained that the language was bad and that I didn’t want to > hear it.  My older son went through a phase of saying the "S" word.  He was > about 9.  I think he was saying it when he was with his friends and he got into > the habit of it and he started slipping and saying it around the house.  It > took a little longer for him to break that habit but he did.  We just made sure > we brought it to his attention each time we heard it and had him do a little > time out for a few minutes.  The time out wasn’t even a punishment so much as > just a way make him more aware of his use of the word.  It helped him to break > the habit.

It appears that you had to tell you son quite a few times before he stopped. I want to say that between my 3 girls I have used vinegar about 5 times.  My 9 yr old has had it twice, my 8 yr old has had it twice and my 5 year old has had it once.  They have NEVER gotten it for repeating bad language.  They are told DON’T SAY THAT AGAIN and they don’t because they know the consequences. Once they tasted vinegar, all I need to do is mention it and they stop the behavior.  So, tell me what is so abusive with this method? > It doesn’t sound like the original poster is having a problem with bad language > so much as with total disrespect from the children.   It sounds like the bad > language is just a symptom of other problems.  Rather than use vinegar to treat > the bad language, I would suggest they look at the total picture.

I do agree that this may not help in the original posters situation.  I realized after the fact that it was her boyfriend’s kids, not her step-kids. She may not be able to deal with the situation the same way she would if they were her own.  But she asked for suggestions and this is what has worked for me and it has worked VERY well.

Response:

   Sounds good, unfortunately 99% of all bad words are learned from other kids.  If you don’t think so, try finding a kids or teens chat and just monitor it for a while…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I have mentioned what I have done with my girls before, so first off, I want >to say I really don’t care to hear what others think of it AGAIN. With that >out of the way, I will share it and if you don’t agree, that is fine. You >asked for suggestions and that is all this is. >The most important thing to teaching children not to use foul language, is to >model it.  If they hear you talk that way (at all) then they won’t understand >why it isn’t okay for them to use.  Our kids don’t hear ANYONE in our family >talk that way so it helps.  BUT, if for some reason, they come out with a >word, I ask them if they know what it means.  Usually, they say no. Then I >tell them that it isn’t a nice word and that we don’t talk that way. I also >tell them that the next time I hear that word come out of their mouth, they >will get a TASTE of vinegar.  After tasting the stuff one time, it usually >works for my girls. >Now, on behalf of Teresa, I would also like to say that you should be careful >how much you have them taste.  I put a small amount on a teaspoon and put >that in their mouth.  Don’t make them drink it from the bottle (for obvious >reasons). >Good luck.

Own

Response:

>I need some help!!!!!!  My boyfriends 2 children (ages 8 and 6) have filthy >mouths.  Every time we take them somewhere, the dirty language starts. >Also, they show no respect to the father or to me.  Raising 2 teenagers of >my own (15 and 13).  My kids are not perfect but they would never think of >saying the things to me that the 8 & 6 year old says to their dad.  Any >suggestions would be most grateful.

Unfortunately, unless you are living in the house, being a primary care giver, and have the direct and verbal support of their father, there is not much you will be able to do about the "general" situation.  You can insist that they not talk to you that way, but be ready for the "or else" part of that statement.  If "or else" involves you getting mad and going away, that may be exactly what they want, their father all to themselves. I’m going to sound like a troll to some here, but kids are individuals and usually act in their own interests.  If you offer them something they need (love, respect, protection), they may curb this behavior to keep it. Good luck from an adoptive father.

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A lot has been said about the children and abusive/nonabusive methods to deal with them but what about the boyfriend.  It doesn’t seem like he is doing anything and they are his children.  What kind of respect is he showing you if he allows his children to talk foul around and/or at you.  Maybe you should consider the value of your relationship with this boyfriend and what kind of dad or husband he would be. Ron

Response:

>> The most important thing to teaching children not to use foul language, is >to > model it.  If they hear you talk that way (at all) then they won’t >understand > why it isn’t okay for them to use.  Our kids don’t hear ANYONE in our >family > talk that way so it helps.  BUT, if for some reason, they come out with a > word, I ask them if they know what it means.  Usually, they say no.  Then I > tell them that it isn’t a nice word and that we don’t talk that way.  I >also > tell them that the next time I hear that word come out of their mouth, they > will get a TASTE of vinegar.  After tasting the stuff one time, it usually > works for my girls.

I don’t agree with using vinegar or washing a child’s mouth out with soap.  To me, this is abusive.   Both of my sons had their times of using bad words and it didn’t take long to correct it.  I explained that the language was bad and that I didn’t want to hear it.  My older son went through a phase of saying the "S" word.  He was about 9.  I think he was saying it when he was with his friends and he got into the habit of it and he started slipping and saying it around the house.  It took a little longer for him to break that habit but he did.  We just made sure we brought it to his attention each time we heard it and had him do a little time out for a few minutes.  The time out wasn’t even a punishment so much as just a way make him more aware of his use of the word.  It helped him to break the habit.   It doesn’t sound like the original poster is having a problem with bad language so much as with total disrespect from the children.   It sounds like the bad language is just a symptom of other problems.  Rather than use vinegar to treat the bad language, I would suggest they look at the total picture. L.C.

Response:

Laura – In what way is giving your child a taste of vinegar abusive.  After all, it IS a food product.  Secondly, I don’t think my kids have EVER had vinegar because they said a "bad" word.  My oldest 2 have had it for lying and/or back-talk. Both of which was enough to heed my warning that if I hear them use a certain word a second time, they would get vinegar.  I NEVER react in shock when I hear a word come out of their mouth that is unacceptable.  I simply say, "What did you say?"  (They won’t repeat it usually.) Then I ask them what it means.  That is when I tell them the consequences of saying it again.  Like I said, it has NEVER happened again. Must work.  I asked my kids if they would rather I let them talk that way or if they would rather they have a taste of vinegar if they did.  They said the vinegar was fine because they don’t WANT to use that language.  Really sounds like abusive parenting to me.  :o) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I need some help!!!!!!  My boyfriends 2 children (ages 8 and 6) have filthy > > mouths.  Every time we take them somewhere, the dirty language starts. > > Also, they show no respect to the father or to me.  Raising 2 teenagers of > > my own (15 and 13).  My kids are not perfect but they would never think of > > saying the things to me that the 8 & 6 year old says to their dad.  Any > > suggestions would be most grateful. > I have mentioned what I have done with my girls before, so first off, I want > to say I really don’t care to hear what others think of it AGAIN.  With that > out of the way, I will share it and if you don’t agree, that is fine.  You > asked for suggestions and that is all this is. > Anytime you post on Usenet, you are inviting comments on your posts, > whether you want to hear them or not. And as long as you post to > advocate this ‘method’, I will post to say I think it is ill-advised and > abusive. Not to change *your* mind, since that’s clearly unlikely to > happen, but to let others know that this suggestion is not universally > regarded as A Good Thing(TM). > The most important thing to teaching children not to use foul language, is to > model it.  If they hear you talk that way (at all) then they won’t understand > why it isn’t okay for them to use.  Our kids don’t hear ANYONE in our family > talk that way so it helps.  BUT, if for some reason, they come out with a > word, I ask them if they know what it means.  Usually, they say no.  Then I > tell them that it isn’t a nice word and that we don’t talk that way.  I also > tell them that the next time I hear that word come out of their mouth, they > will get a TASTE of vinegar.  After tasting the stuff one time, it usually > works for my girls. > I completely agree on with your first statement; it’s hypocritical for > parents to use swear words and then expect their children to understand > why they cannot. My husband and I try to curb our language, but > occasionally a swear word will sneak out under stress. I told my > 4-year-old that she should remind *us* not to swear if she hears us say > a ‘rude’ word. > My problem with the vinegar method, besides being a nasty and abusive > relic from the the ’soap in the mouth’ days, is that it calls way too > much attention to the forbidden word. I think the main reasons that kids > swear is experimentation (in younger kids) and for older kids, for the > shock-and-attention-getting value. Since shock and attention are the > goals, it makes more sense, IMO, to deny them those very things. I would > recommend treating bad language as any other rude and unacceptable > behavior; tell them their behavior is unacceptable, and if it persists, > take them home, don’t respond if they speak rudely, etc. Of course, the > boyfriend is going to *have* to start discouraging their behavior too, > or no progress will be made! > Laura Uerling

Response:

> > I need some help!!!!!!  My boyfriends 2 children (ages 8 and 6) have filthy > mouths.  Every time we take them somewhere, the dirty language starts. > Also, they show no respect to the father or to me.  Raising 2 teenagers of > my own (15 and 13).  My kids are not perfect but they would never think of > saying the things to me that the 8 & 6 year old says to their dad.  Any > suggestions would be most grateful. > I have mentioned what I have done with my girls before, so first off, I want > to say I really don’t care to hear what others think of it AGAIN.  With that > out of the way, I will share it and if you don’t agree, that is fine.  You > asked for suggestions and that is all this is.

Anytime you post on Usenet, you are inviting comments on your posts, whether you want to hear them or not. And as long as you post to advocate this ‘method’, I will post to say I think it is ill-advised and abusive. Not to change *your* mind, since that’s clearly unlikely to happen, but to let others know that this suggestion is not universally regarded as A Good Thing(TM). > The most important thing to teaching children not to use foul language, is to > model it.  If they hear you talk that way (at all) then they won’t understand > why it isn’t okay for them to use.  Our kids don’t hear ANYONE in our family > talk that way so it helps.  BUT, if for some reason, they come out with a > word, I ask them if they know what it means.  Usually, they say no.  Then I > tell them that it isn’t a nice word and that we don’t talk that way.  I also > tell them that the next time I hear that word come out of their mouth, they > will get a TASTE of vinegar.  After tasting the stuff one time, it usually > works for my girls.

I completely agree on with your first statement; it’s hypocritical for parents to use swear words and then expect their children to understand why they cannot. My husband and I try to curb our language, but occasionally a swear word will sneak out under stress. I told my 4-year-old that she should remind *us* not to swear if she hears us say a ‘rude’ word. My problem with the vinegar method, besides being a nasty and abusive relic from the the ’soap in the mouth’ days, is that it calls way too much attention to the forbidden word. I think the main reasons that kids swear is experimentation (in younger kids) and for older kids, for the shock-and-attention-getting value. Since shock and attention are the goals, it makes more sense, IMO, to deny them those very things. I would recommend treating bad language as any other rude and unacceptable behavior; tell them their behavior is unacceptable, and if it persists, take them home, don’t respond if they speak rudely, etc. Of course, the boyfriend is going to *have* to start discouraging their behavior too, or no progress will be made! Laura Uerling

Response:

Brian- I can count on one hand the times that I have had to use vinegar on my kids. That is how well it works.  And included in this count is when it was used for foul language, lying and back-talk.  Obviously, it works. Before you suggest a person "sucks" as a parent,(I can see your mom didn’t use vinegar on you) I think you should meet their kids. As for my cooking, I don’t use vinegar.  I can’t stand the taste.  Get the drift?  See how it works?  Might try it on your kids before you knock it.  But it may not help if you talk the way you do on here around them.  So whose the better parent?  The one that talks like you or the one that doesn’t and uses vinegar on their kids? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The most important thing to teaching children not to use foul language, is to > model it.  If they hear you talk that way (at all) then they won’t understand > why it isn’t okay for them to use.  Our kids don’t hear ANYONE in our family > talk that way so it helps.  BUT, if for some reason, they come out with a > word, I ask them if they know what it means.  Usually, they say no.  Then I > tell them that it isn’t a nice word and that we don’t talk that way.  I also > tell them that the next time I hear that word come out of their mouth, they > will get a TASTE of vinegar.  After tasting the stuff one time, it usually > works for my girls. > Ugh, do you intentionally suck as both a parent *and* a cook, or does > it come naturally?  Why would you cook with vinegar that tastes that > awful?  Buy your vinegar from a winery, not from the store, and your > cooking will improve 100%. > That is, if your kids aren’t on a daily bread and water diet. > — Brian Ream                                        Kalamazoo, Michigan

Response:

>>Every time we take them somewhere, the dirty language starts.<<

Don’t take them anywhere.  Tell them if they can’t behave in public, they can just stay home.  If they misbehave while you are out, take them home immediately no matter how much of a scene they make.  Kids acting irresponsibly like that don’t deserve the privilege of being entertained.

Response:

Expalin to the kids that the language the use is unacceptable and that when they speak that way they will be ignored. When they speak that way do not even look at them. Make believe they do not exist. When they speak correctly treat them with the TLC they deserve. Be dilligent. They will get the point. Also Don’t speak in the way you don’t want them to speak. Best of luck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I need some help!!!!!!  My boyfriends 2 children (ages 8 and 6) have filthy >mouths.  Every time we take them somewhere, the dirty language starts. >Also, they show no respect to the father or to me.  Raising 2 teenagers of >my own (15 and 13).  My kids are not perfect but they would never think of >saying the things to me that the 8 & 6 year old says to their dad.  Any >suggestions would be most grateful.

Response:

I need some help!!!!!!  My boyfriends 2 children (ages 8 and 6) have filthy mouths.  Every time we take them somewhere, the dirty language starts. Also, they show no respect to the father or to me.  Raising 2 teenagers of my own (15 and 13).  My kids are not perfect but they would never think of saying the things to me that the 8 & 6 year old says to their dad.  Any suggestions would be most grateful.

Response:

> I need some help!!!!!!  My boyfriends 2 children (ages 8 and 6) have filthy > mouths.  Every time we take them somewhere, the dirty language starts. > Also, they show no respect to the father or to me.  Raising 2 teenagers of > my own (15 and 13).  My kids are not perfect but they would never think of > saying the things to me that the 8 & 6 year old says to their dad.  Any > suggestions would be most grateful.

I have mentioned what I have done with my girls before, so first off, I want to say I really don’t care to hear what others think of it AGAIN.  With that out of the way, I will share it and if you don’t agree, that is fine.  You asked for suggestions and that is all this is. The most important thing to teaching children not to use foul language, is to model it.  If they hear you talk that way (at all) then they won’t understand why it isn’t okay for them to use.  Our kids don’t hear ANYONE in our family talk that way so it helps.  BUT, if for some reason, they come out with a word, I ask them if they know what it means.  Usually, they say no.  Then I tell them that it isn’t a nice word and that we don’t talk that way.  I also tell them that the next time I hear that word come out of their mouth, they will get a TASTE of vinegar.  After tasting the stuff one time, it usually works for my girls. Now, on behalf of Teresa, I would also like to say that you should be careful how much you have them taste.  I put a small amount on a teaspoon and put that in their mouth.  Don’t make them drink it from the bottle (for obvious reasons). Good luck.

Response: