Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my husband’s > workshop. > There was NEVER a time I nor any of my siblings was forbiddent to use > knives, or any other tool. Not even as toddlers. It was a given we’d > get small nicks and dings while learning to use them precisely. > We also had guns in the house. We all knew where they were, where the > bullets were, and how to load the guns. When I was about THREE my > father explained the basics of gun safety to me. Although I don’t > precisely remember being FORBIDDEN to touch or use the gun, I did > grasp what it was, and why I was to leave it alone. > We were rural. Live and death were all around us. Our parents and > grandparents told my sister and myself which things were dangerous, > and we were just expected to listen an obey. We were told not to run > into the corn field, ’cause a very little kid could get totally lost > out there. So we just didn’t do it. We wouldn’t even consider doing > it. > My parents were farmers. Once we were TOLD something, it was our job > to obey. They didn’t have the time to follow us around reminding us of > what was dangerous and what was not.
We had guns in our house as children also. My father had us in the NRA learning about gun safety when I was probably six years old and I received my first gun when I was in second grade. > He is not allowed to play with knives, nor is he allowed to go > into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there that > could hurt him. > Is your son retarded? At two I had free run of our farm which included > things like heavy farm equipment, grain silos, pitch forks, hay hooks, > and large animals.
No, my son is not retarded. Actually he’s been ‘labeled’ gifted and ADHD. I don’t know if I agree with the ADHD part. And, no, he is not on any medication. As I’ve said, I made a mistake and didn’t think of him growing up and changing the rules to fit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> He has known these rules and lived with these rules without > a problem until now. When he was caught, he lied. > You’re dealing with two separate issues. Your son is more than old > enough to be trusted to learn to use a simple tool like a knive in an > unsupervised situation. That is…unless his is learning disabled, or > has some other impediment that makes it dangerous for him to be around > tools. > Not only did he lie, but > he blamed his best friend. When we brought his friend over and confronted > them together, he allowed his friend to get ‘chewed out’ while he said > nothing. In my opinion he stole, lied, and betrayed his friend all in the > matter of one hour. > Kids can be mercinary. I do think the problem is primarily YOURS > however. First, you treat him like a toddler and forbit him to even > have contact with tools for fear of him getting hurt. > Then you swing back the other way, and seem to expect a level of > emotional maturity much beyond a 7 year old. We ALL stretch the truth > to fit circumstance. Your son lacks the maturity to realize when to > speak up if one of his tales starts to hurt someone else. > In for a penny, in for a pound, he didn’t know when enough was enough > with his little fib. > I know he needs consequences, but I don’t know what to > do. > Two offences, two different corrections. The first correction I think > should be mostly yours. Ask him if he simply wants more access to > tools so he can work on his own projects. > You might start with getting him his own toolbox. Put in a hammer, > small saw, some screw drivers, and yes, a couple of small knives. He > should not be punished for wanting to create his own projects. > At heart, that’s all he wanted. He wanted to do something creative, > that he could do independently of you. > I want him to realize stealing etc. is wrong – morally. > Using a tool in his own house is NOT stealing. You need to look at > your definition of stealing. He’s guilty of breaking an inappropriate > rule. NOT stealing.
I told him it is not stealing, it is using something he knew I said he couldn’t play with that did not belong to him. There is a difference. I also apologized profusely to his friend for ‘chewing him out’. I told my son today that I learned something from this whole experience in that I will never talk to him or anybody else like that again because it is humiliating. Yes, I am human, but I did apologize for that. > I want him to > not do this again because he knows it is wrong, not for fear of getting in > trouble. Any advice? > Yes. Tell him if he feels he has outgrown and old rule to come to you > to discuss it. Breaking your rules causes a lot of trouble and > unhappiness in your family. Breaking rules is no way to get what he > wants. It’s HIS job, at least in part to let you know when he has > outgrown a rule.
We have discussed him letting me know when he feels he has outgrown a rule. To be honest, I’d never thought about it. He is my first born and I haven’t done this before. I only know how I grew up and if it were up to my mother, my son wouldn’t experience anything remotely dangerous until he’s at least 30. :) I appreciate all the advice given on this subject. It made me think of how I have been handling situations with my son. It has been a great learning/teaching experience the last two days.
Response:
> I appreciate all the advice given on this subject. It made me think of how > I have been handling situations with my son. It has been a great > learning/teaching experience the last two days.
That’s great! Do be careful with word like "stealing" and "lying". These words can hurt a lot, and can lead to more unhappiness. It sounds like you’re on a good path.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just some things to think about Susan. > > My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my > husband’s > > workshop. > Shall I assume you KNOW that HE took them? I learned very quickly that > when I asked my kids the location of something they usually pointed me > to some adult that had moved it or had it in his or her pocket. Kids > are actually, unless they have something functionally wrong or have > been taught to steal, are quite respectful of others > possessions…especially at your child’s age. > I do know he took them because to told me after I confronted his friend and > him together. I had asked him before his friend came over to tell me what > he knew about the situation and he told me his friend went in and took them. > I believed him.
Did you not understand what I told you about this? Children are born believing their parents are godlike, and however they are parented by those gods is how they deserve to be parented. If you parent him like he is a criminal, trying to trap him by cornering him and forcing him to "confess" you will inevitably raise a criminal. Never ever ask a child to incriminate himself. He or she is usually terrified of their parents. We are giants, gods, and very very scary. It’s out job to break down that fear, to give the child courage, to be gentle and comforting. He knew perfectly well he had done something YOU think is wrong, and nature was compelling him to do. You are suppose to HELP him do those naturally compelled activities in a safe way, not turn him into a criminal. > > He is not allowed to play with knives, > I find this genuinely a bit of a shock. I’ll assume your child is > developmentally on track for a 7 year old. Boy or girl, the access to > tools is extremely important to children of this age (I’ll explain way > in a bit) and nature itself drives them especially hard to this end > around this age. > I agree. I talked to him about this today and told him that I think he > probably is old enough to have a pocket knife (like his friends have) at > this age. He is actually very mature for his age, but it just never occured > to me because he never mentioned an interest in it. As a matter of fact, > last weekend we had just been talking about going out to the shooting range > and teaching him how to shoot. I am slow sometimes.
Ah, but you are waking up. Congratulate ourself. I certainly had many lessons from my children. > As far as the tools go, I don’t know how to use them myself. I have a baby > daughter that I don’t want out there while I’m trying to teach my son (and > myself) how to use power tools.
What ever happened to playpens? My kids stayed with me while I pulled engines and overhauled them, or milked goats, or attended college classes. (I may have made the very first baby carrier pack in 1967 by cutting holes in the bottom corners of a worn soft military rucksack, lining it with quilting and taking my son into college classes with me….arh arh arh….not that it made me popular with the administration). > My husband (his step father) doesn’t seem > too willing to work with my son too much. I am trying to encourage it (and > have been for some time), but he will act like I’m bugging him and he will > work with my son very rarely. I agree that he would love to work with him. > My father dies three years ago, so that option is out.
I don’t have a great deal of admiration for a man who is in a family but holds himself aloof. Though it may be he is just afraid that you’ll think he is trying to alienate the boy’s affections if he gets too close. You need to tell him to do it, and that it’s what you want. It sound’s like you folks pussyfoot around too much. The boy that can’t tell you what he wants, you who can’t tell dad what you want of him in regards to the boy, the man who keeps his distance. Get with the program. That boy needs involvement and even if you make some mistakes it’s better than staying at a distance. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > nor is he allowed to go > > into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there > that > > could hurt him. > "Things" don’t hurt people. Misuse of things can though. Why has a 7 > year old not been taught how to use these things with ample > opportunity to have you or his father, on demand respond to his need > to manipulate his environment…that is, to learn to use tools? > > He has known these rules and lived with these rules without > > a problem until now. > I don’t see how that isn’t a huge clue to you. Time passes, children > develop on natures plan, not your convenience…(trust me on this or > Mother Nature will slap you crosseyed). > > When he was caught, > You start right off by portraying him as a criminal instead of a child > responding to the natural imperative off all life, the flourish, > expand, gain control over it’s environment. You are fighting nature, > and through nature, your child. Bad outcomes are pretty much > gauranteed unless you start learning and start changing your world > view from punishing controlling parent to a supportive partner in the > child’s learning. > That statement was as much as asking Ma Nature to smack you a good > one. > Actually, I didn’t start by accusing him. I found the stuff and asked him > if he knew anything about it.
Bingo! What did I just say? If someone did that to you you’d immediately go on the defensive. He knew you knew or should have known. All you needed to do was cooperatively explore his interest, let him tell you what it was about and what he wanted to do. I can almost hear the insinuation in your voice…and I wasn’t there, but I know how fault finding parents work. You were looking for something to confront him with so you could "teach him not to lie". Come on, fess up. It’s good for the soul. The answer is, don’t trap him, don’t even think about his "lying". He isn’t…he’s trying to please you, protect himself, and at the same time respond to the most powerful imperative of nature…..the urge for the organism to gain control over his or her environment. It’s easy as hell to discover your child is "lying", just set him up. It takes a bit more skill to recognize a developmental challenge the child is facing…all alone apparently. You are his guide, his bearer, his step and fetchit and his servant in this matter. Do as you are supposed to. > He freaked out and started crying and denying > any knowledge and automatically blamed his friend.
Look at your words. He is immediately portrayed to us as an evil child of evil intent. He was scared child, who had responded to the forces of nature, didn’t even know that of course (what do you think your job is?), embarrassed, overwhelmed, and you make him out a criminal. He’s 7, not a hardened criminal of 30. You’ll make him one if you keep it up though. > That is when I said that > maybe we should talk to his friend. I used that statement here, but I did > not treat him like a criminal.
Oh come on. He tried to divert you and you immediately, instead of taking the clue from the child that you needed to go on a completely different tack, started setting up a situation to "catch" him in his lie. Here is what you should have done when you CAUGHT YOU SETTING A TRAP FOR HIM: You should have stopped, apologized, hugged him so he knew you meant it and were showing him his development is more important than your hangup about "lying" considering that you do it yourself daily. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > he lied. > He protected himself the best he knew how, given that instead of being > asked > "what’s up"? he was accused criminally. You do when the cop pulls you > over on a traffic stop, and when your best friend asks if you like her > new hairdo. Get with the program. This isn’t a liar, this is a child > doing what you do, but block him from doing. > How about asking him what’s up, and what plan could all cooperate in > to start pretty rapidly allowing him resource access…that means, let > him set some learning goals and you obey as you are supposed to and > make it happen for him. > > Not only did he lie, but > > he blamed his best friend. > He is scared shitless of you if he did that. (on the other hand who’s > to say his friend wasn’t involved?) > He was hoping with numbers you two would stop accusing and start > thinking. In fact HE wasn’t really hoping, nature was giving you a > break and you blew it. That concept of child as evil is going to ruin > humankind one day. It is YOU who are evil to let this color your view > of your precious gift from nature doing what he must do. > > When we brought his friend over and confronted > > them together, he allowed his friend to get ‘chewed out’ while he said > > nothing. > What was he supposed to do while nature impelled him to wait and see > if could sort it out. He can’t yet, he’s seven. You are presumably a > rational adult, but you aren’t a very wise or learned one if you are > calling a curious, energetic, determined explorer a "liar." > Nature is far wiser than you. Listen to it. Watch it. Be a servant to > it and to him and the rewards can be beyond your wildest dreams. You > could have an Edison or Tesla on your hands and instead of loading him > up with stimulating learning you are punishing him for being natural. > > In my opinion he stole, lied, and betrayed his friend all in the > > matter of one hour. > In my opinion his beloved (to me, but certainly not to ME) parents > overloaded his circuits with guilt, shame,
… read more »
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my husband’s > workshop. >There was NEVER a time I nor any of my siblings was forbiddent to use >knives, or any other tool. Not even as toddlers. It was a given we’d >get small nicks and dings while learning to use them precisely. >We also had guns in the house. We all knew where they were, where the >bullets were, and how to load the guns. When I was about THREE my >father explained the basics of gun safety to me. Although I don’t >precisely remember being FORBIDDEN to touch or use the gun, I did >grasp what it was, and why I was to leave it alone. >We were rural. Live and death were all around us. Our parents and >grandparents told my sister and myself which things were dangerous, >and we were just expected to listen an obey. We were told not to run >into the corn field, ’cause a very little kid could get totally lost >out there. So we just didn’t do it. We wouldn’t even consider doing >it. >My parents were farmers. Once we were TOLD something, it was our job >to obey. They didn’t have the time to follow us around reminding us of >what was dangerous and what was not. > He is not allowed to play with knives, nor is he allowed to go > into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there that > could hurt him. >Is your son retarded? At two I had free run of our farm which included >things like heavy farm equipment, grain silos, pitch forks, hay hooks, >and large animals. > He has known these rules and lived with these rules without > a problem until now. When he was caught, he lied. >You’re dealing with two separate issues. Your son is more than old >enough to be trusted to learn to use a simple tool like a knive in an >unsupervised situation. That is…unless his is learning disabled, or >has some other impediment that makes it dangerous for him to be around >tools. > Not only did he lie, but > he blamed his best friend. When we brought his friend over and confronted > them together, he allowed his friend to get ‘chewed out’ while he said > nothing. In my opinion he stole, lied, and betrayed his friend all in the > matter of one hour. >Kids can be mercinary. I do think the problem is primarily YOURS >however. First, you treat him like a toddler and forbit him to even >have contact with tools for fear of him getting hurt. >Then you swing back the other way, and seem to expect a level of >emotional maturity much beyond a 7 year old. We ALL stretch the truth >to fit circumstance. Your son lacks the maturity to realize when to >speak up if one of his tales starts to hurt someone else. >In for a penny, in for a pound, he didn’t know when enough was enough >with his little fib. > I know he needs consequences, but I don’t know what to > do. >Two offences, two different corrections. The first correction I think >should be mostly yours. Ask him if he simply wants more access to >tools so he can work on his own projects. >You might start with getting him his own toolbox. Put in a hammer, >small saw, some screw drivers, and yes, a couple of small knives. He >should not be punished for wanting to create his own projects. >At heart, that’s all he wanted. He wanted to do something creative, >that he could do independently of you. > I want him to realize stealing etc. is wrong – morally. >Using a tool in his own house is NOT stealing. You need to look at >your definition of stealing. He’s guilty of breaking an inappropriate >rule. NOT stealing. > I want him to > not do this again because he knows it is wrong, not for fear of getting in > trouble. Any advice? >Yes. Tell him if he feels he has outgrown and old rule to come to you >to discuss it. Breaking your rules causes a lot of trouble and >unhappiness in your family. Breaking rules is no way to get what he >wants. It’s HIS job, at least in part to let you know when he has >outgrown a rule.
Yup! Steve
Response:
>He lied because he was afraid of you. Teach him how to handle knives and >washers, and get a man to show him around the workshop ( stuff a normal >7-yr-old boy should be doing anyway!) and trust him a bit more. Don’t >humiliate his friends in front of him either! When you treat him like this, >what else do you expect? Your rules may have worked up til now, but it’s >time to change them!
Exactly right! Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my husband’s > workshop. He is not allowed to play with knives, nor is he allowed to go > into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there that > could hurt him. He has known these rules and lived with these rules >without > a problem until now. When he was caught, he lied. Not only did he lie, >but > he blamed his best friend. When we brought his friend over and confronted > them together, he allowed his friend to get ‘chewed out’ while he said > nothing. In my opinion he stole, lied, and betrayed his friend all in the > matter of one hour. I know he needs consequences, but I don’t know what >to > do. I want him to realize stealing etc. is wrong – morally. I want him >to > not do this again because he knows it is wrong, not for fear of getting in > trouble. Any advice?
Response:
Sorry I replied without reading the entire thread, you have received some very good advice….good luck with your son!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> He lied because he was afraid of you. Teach him how to handle knives and > washers, and get a man to show him around the workshop ( stuff a normal > 7-yr-old boy should be doing anyway!) and trust him a bit more. Don’t > humiliate his friends in front of him either! When you treat him like this, > what else do you expect? Your rules may have worked up til now, but it’s > time to change them! > My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my husband’s > workshop. He is not allowed to play with knives, nor is he allowed to go > into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there that > could hurt him. He has known these rules and lived with these rules > without > a problem until now. When he was caught, he lied. Not only did he lie, > but > he blamed his best friend. When we brought his friend over and confronted > them together, he allowed his friend to get ‘chewed out’ while he said > nothing. In my opinion he stole, lied, and betrayed his friend all in the > matter of one hour. I know he needs consequences, but I don’t know what > to > do. I want him to realize stealing etc. is wrong – morally. I want him > to > not do this again because he knows it is wrong, not for fear of getting in > trouble. Any advice?
Response:
> My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my husband’s > workshop.
There was NEVER a time I nor any of my siblings was forbiddent to use knives, or any other tool. Not even as toddlers. It was a given we’d get small nicks and dings while learning to use them precisely. We also had guns in the house. We all knew where they were, where the bullets were, and how to load the guns. When I was about THREE my father explained the basics of gun safety to me. Although I don’t precisely remember being FORBIDDEN to touch or use the gun, I did grasp what it was, and why I was to leave it alone. We were rural. Live and death were all around us. Our parents and grandparents told my sister and myself which things were dangerous, and we were just expected to listen an obey. We were told not to run into the corn field, ’cause a very little kid could get totally lost out there. So we just didn’t do it. We wouldn’t even consider doing it. My parents were farmers. Once we were TOLD something, it was our job to obey. They didn’t have the time to follow us around reminding us of what was dangerous and what was not. > He is not allowed to play with knives, nor is he allowed to go > into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there that > could hurt him.
Is your son retarded? At two I had free run of our farm which included things like heavy farm equipment, grain silos, pitch forks, hay hooks, and large animals. > He has known these rules and lived with these rules without > a problem until now. When he was caught, he lied.
You’re dealing with two separate issues. Your son is more than old enough to be trusted to learn to use a simple tool like a knive in an unsupervised situation. That is…unless his is learning disabled, or has some other impediment that makes it dangerous for him to be around tools. > Not only did he lie, but > he blamed his best friend. When we brought his friend over and confronted > them together, he allowed his friend to get ‘chewed out’ while he said > nothing. In my opinion he stole, lied, and betrayed his friend all in the > matter of one hour.
Kids can be mercinary. I do think the problem is primarily YOURS however. First, you treat him like a toddler and forbit him to even have contact with tools for fear of him getting hurt. Then you swing back the other way, and seem to expect a level of emotional maturity much beyond a 7 year old. We ALL stretch the truth to fit circumstance. Your son lacks the maturity to realize when to speak up if one of his tales starts to hurt someone else. In for a penny, in for a pound, he didn’t know when enough was enough with his little fib. > I know he needs consequences, but I don’t know what to > do.
Two offences, two different corrections. The first correction I think should be mostly yours. Ask him if he simply wants more access to tools so he can work on his own projects. You might start with getting him his own toolbox. Put in a hammer, small saw, some screw drivers, and yes, a couple of small knives. He should not be punished for wanting to create his own projects. At heart, that’s all he wanted. He wanted to do something creative, that he could do independently of you. > I want him to realize stealing etc. is wrong – morally.
Using a tool in his own house is NOT stealing. You need to look at your definition of stealing. He’s guilty of breaking an inappropriate rule. NOT stealing. > I want him to > not do this again because he knows it is wrong, not for fear of getting in > trouble. Any advice?
Yes. Tell him if he feels he has outgrown and old rule to come to you to discuss it. Breaking your rules causes a lot of trouble and unhappiness in your family. Breaking rules is no way to get what he wants. It’s HIS job, at least in part to let you know when he has outgrown a rule.
Response:
He lied because he was afraid of you. Teach him how to handle knives and washers, and get a man to show him around the workshop ( stuff a normal 7-yr-old boy should be doing anyway!) and trust him a bit more. Don’t humiliate his friends in front of him either! When you treat him like this, what else do you expect? Your rules may have worked up til now, but it’s time to change them!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my husband’s > workshop. He is not allowed to play with knives, nor is he allowed to go > into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there that > could hurt him. He has known these rules and lived with these rules without > a problem until now. When he was caught, he lied. Not only did he lie, but > he blamed his best friend. When we brought his friend over and confronted > them together, he allowed his friend to get ‘chewed out’ while he said > nothing. In my opinion he stole, lied, and betrayed his friend all in the > matter of one hour. I know he needs consequences, but I don’t know what to > do. I want him to realize stealing etc. is wrong – morally. I want him to > not do this again because he knows it is wrong, not for fear of getting in > trouble. Any advice?
Response:
Steve, I didn’t agree with much of your original post, but all this below is useful stuff that will help people figure out how to help their children in a positive way. Thanks. Ian. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You need to read about Eskimo/Inuit children and how they carry knives to > cut blubber from the earliest age and virtually never cut themselves. Is > there no way that you can see fit to give your child the opportunity to be > regarded as an equal in the tools they can use? When MY son wanted a knife > we picked it out together and he wore it in a sheath at home for a while, > used it a lot, and was proud of it, and then it quickly became one more > thing to put on and it remained in his drawer and he only took it, in its > sheath, to where he wanted to use it, and otherwise it was sheathed. He got > it where he was 6, and he still has it somewhere in a drawer at age 28. It > meant that we trusted him, because we spoke at length at what can go wrong > carrying knives around, and he never did any of those things after our > discussion. And our discussion was not DON’T-based, it was what-if-based, > in other words it was merely informative as to how bad things can happen to > good people. > We did the same thing with matches, we let him practice with them as much > as he wanted as a small child, to learn to light them without fail, so that > he wouldn’t furtively light one and drop it and be afraid to tell anyone. > He practiced on the kitchen floor over a big roaster-bottom full of water > so he wouldn’t burn himself. Again, we discussed what to do if this or that > happened, and how people have to protect each other from their mistakes. > And then we let him light matches whenever we needed one lit, it was his > job. > Children need to be trusted with things so that they feel equal and mete to > the task of living and growing. They need respect just as much as you or > anyone does, and when they have people doubt them it demeans and demoralizes > them, and it makes growing up feeling confident and feeling loved entirely > impossible, because no one CAN feel loved by people who don’t trust them and > who don’t regard them as equals. > They need to hear that mistakes one can learn from, and that they have > learned after a mistake, and that they are trusted not to make the same > mistake. And this does NOT refer to decisions they decided to pursue > because they felt they were unfairly being demeaned and denied their > CHANCE to learn and to be an equal! This means real-world mistakes which > they did NOT intend. > If you start trying to punish what they intend you will actually turn > those intents TOWARD the hatred and revenge you don’t want! You have to > ALWAYS assume they intend nothing but good, and that the only bad things > that happen occur due to mistakes that they can learn from and learn about, > or you will produce a self-fulfilling prophesy, and you will make them your > enemy instead of your valued ally! > Children need the chances they want to take more than they need any > idiotic absolute protection from harm, because without them ALL THEY > *ARE* IS HARMED! It damages their soul forever!
Response:
>> Rather than forbid him from the workshop, > maybe dad can have him help build something and show him how > to handle tools safely. ><rest snipped> >I once met someone whose father taught him how to use an axe when he was >eight. Some people were horrified, but the father’s rationale was that sooner >or later, no matter whether he was forbidden or not, the boy was going to try >to use the axe. If he was taught how to use it *correctly*, he would be less >likely to cut his foot off. I imagine it also took some of the "forbidden >fruit" aspect out of using the axe.
And very true.My son learned to use an axe at that age through scouts. Got a special patch and crd to carry annd any time he doesn’t follow very specific knife rules/axe use rules, he loses the chip. I taught my kids to start chopping food at that age.as well as other cooking tasks WE also drink wine with our meals. My daughter is now 23 and I know she overdoes on occasion, but when she was in high school, the fact that we allowed her a small glass of wine or a beer on occasion certainly cut down the "forbidden aspect as well" Actually, in our house very little is forbidden. You are expected to use things in the manner for which they were intended, and at the appropriate time and place. That simple statement eliminates a lot for the other rules from childhood on. Barb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Worth considering.
Response:
>As far as the tools go, I don’t know how to use them myself. I have a baby >daughter that I don’t want out there while I’m trying to teach my son (and >myself) how to use power tools. My husband (his step father) doesn’t seem >too willing to work with my son too much. I am trying to encourage it (and >have been for some time), but he will act like I’m bugging him and he will >work with my son very rarely. I agree that he would love to work with him. >My father dies three years ago, so that option is out.
Options here – T.take a course yourself and learn how to use tools and while you are learning help teach your son. My daughter actually works as a theater tech and learned much about how to use tools in various productions she worked at school as a preteen and teen. If you feel like some things are too dangerous since you don’t know much about how to use them, try substituting things that are less dangerous to build things with as a start. Hammer and nails and wood pieces are generally pretty easy to start working with and there are kits that might be helpful. With the baby (how old is s/he?), you can use golf tees and styrofoam for building projects and your son can help teach her/him Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown
Response:
>> Rather than forbid him from the workshop, > maybe dad can have him help build something and show him how > to handle tools safely. ><rest snipped> >I once met someone whose father taught him how to use an axe when he was >eight. Some people were horrified, but the father’s rationale was that sooner >or later, no matter whether he was forbidden or not, the boy was going to try >to use the axe. If he was taught how to use it *correctly*, he would be less >likely to cut his foot off. I imagine it also took some of the "forbidden >fruit" aspect out of using the axe.
I’m sure my father, who was born in 1904 and grew up in rural Colorado learned to use an axe way before that. People had to heat the house with wood then. If your son is really interested in learning to work with tools and his father is not interested in teaching him, there might be scouts or camp or something that he could go to – or a craft shop that gives lessons. grandma Rosalie
Response:
> Rather than forbid him from the workshop, > maybe dad can have him help build something and show him how > to handle tools safely.
<rest snipped> I once met someone whose father taught him how to use an axe when he was eight. Some people were horrified, but the father’s rationale was that sooner or later, no matter whether he was forbidden or not, the boy was going to try to use the axe. If he was taught how to use it *correctly*, he would be less likely to cut his foot off. I imagine it also took some of the "forbidden fruit" aspect out of using the axe. Worth considering. — Chookie — Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) Henry Crun: Did you use Mrs Beeton’s Cookery Book, Min? Minnie Bannister: Yes — it was the first thing I put in. Spike Milligan, The Goon Show
Response:
>He has worked with his dad in the workshop, although I’m sure more of that >would benefit him. Unfortunately his dad doesn’t seem to want to take the >time to do that very much. I don’t really know how to change that.
If dad’s not willing or able to take the time, and the son is really interested in the workshop, I would suggest that you take the time/and or learn with him Slightly off topic but for what it is worth, while the knife would make me nervous, in general I believe in teaching children to use real tools under supervision and using them properly. Get him some wood and some screws and let him build something. Get a small hammer (they do have kids tool sets ..real ones, mine had one at age five). Allow him to hammer under your supervision. There are library books on woodworking and tools with children. Help him hang pictures in his wall and so on. If you are really interested, I can give you more ideas. My son learned and got his own adult set of saw, wrenches, screwdrivers and so on at age twelve. Not only will he learn, but he will have the proper respect for the tools. I have done the same thing with stoves, sewing machines and so on. Never had a kiddie oven, a toy sewing machine or a toy typewriter. There is nothing that says dad has to be either the king of the workshop, or the teacher. If dad doesn’t have the time/ability/interest to work with the kid, you do it. Lastly, if you are unable, scouting, even cub scouting, generally teaches one a healthy respect for tools, as well as how to use them. In terms of the lying issue, I do believe that a seven year old knows the difference between lying and the truth. My children always knew that if they lied about an issue, they would have two consequences, one for the action and one for the deception. They learned quickly toi be up front and that my tolerance for the deception was generally much less than for the original "crime". Because I instilled this into my kids at a young age, it continued into their teenage years. Having a fender bender was one thing, having a fender bender and leaving me to find out from someone else was a whole different issue! Barb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> misc.kids added > >My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my husband’s > >workshop. He is not allowed to play with knives, nor is he allowed to go > >into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there that > >could hurt him. He has known these rules and lived with these rules >without > >a problem until now. > His curiosity may have gotten the better of him in regard to the > things in the workshop. Rather than forbid him from the workshop, > maybe dad can have him help build something and show him how > to handle tools safely. You can also let him satisfy his curiosity > about the various tools that are too unsafe for him, but allowing > him to watch dad and explaining what might happen if he slips with > them. At 7, he can safely use many of the tools under close > supervision. Also for something like the washers, you may want to > ask him what he intended to do with them and assure him that he can > have some to use in whatever project he was attempting with them. > Note also that rules need to change as children get older and become > more competent, so perhaps now is a good time to review any of your > rules and to get his input on what should be changed. Brainstorm > with him and you may be surprised at the things he can come up with. > >When he was caught, he lied. > How do you know that he lied? > >Not only did he lie, but he blamed his best friend. When we brought his > >friend over and confronted them together, he allowed his friend to get > >’chewed out’ while he said nothing. In my opinion he stole, lied, and > >betrayed his friend all in the matter of one hour. > You say you believe that he stole, lied and let his friend take the > blame? Why do you believe this and not believe what he said about > it? > >I know he needs consequences, but I don’t know what to do. I > >want him to realize stealing etc. is wrong – morally. I want him to > >not do this again because he knows it is wrong, not for fear of getting > >in trouble. Any advice? > Tell him that stealing is wrong > Help him to pay for or return the stolen object > Make sure that the child does not benefit from the theft in any way > Avoid lecturing, predicting future bad behavior, or saying that they > now consider the child to be a thief or a bad person > Make clear that this behavior is totally unacceptable within the > family tradition and the community > As for the lying, it is only from about seven to eight years old > that children can fully understand the difference between truth > and lies – before that they are not ‘lying’ in the adult sense. > Children do lie to avoid punishment – the more a child is punished > harshly, the more they will lie to avoid it – "Jack did it, it > wasn’t me". > He needs to understand that you will still love him even if when he > does something wrong. He needs to learn that honesty is the best > policy. > Dorothy > There is no sound, no cry in all the world > that can be heard unless someone listens .. > source unknown
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Thank you — I don’t usually even read what Richard writes because he is an >ASS. >I did tell him that he disappointed me. I told him he is not a bad person, >he just made some bad choices. I told him if he had wanted to see the >knife, he should have asked his father or myself. It is OK with >supervision, but it is dangerour without. I don’t want him to get hurt. I >think he was more upset because I was disappointed than anything else. We >talked about why he did it and he said his friend has brought a knife to our >house and he was jealous – he wanted one also. We talked about why I don’t >want him to play with knives (again) and he came up with very reasonable, >logical answers. He said he was torn between feeling guilty for doing it >(while it was going on) and being jealous of his friend. I realize, as >Richard says, when you tell a child they can’t do something, they want to. >I don’t tell him he can’t do much, but when it is dangerous to him, I have >to set limitations. I tell him he can’t play in traffic also — it is >dangerous. It doesn’t make him want to do it because I said he can’t. He >knows there are very few things he absolutely can’t do, so when there is >something it must be important — not that I am just ‘being mean’ but a good >reason behind it. I always reinforce to him that he is a good person — he >has goodness inside him. I think when things like this happen, it is a good >time to teach some morality. He did mention that it was ‘fun’ to get away >with something, but only at the time he was doing it. He said he felt so >bad after he did it, it was not so fun anymore. I never want him to be so >scared of getting ‘in trouble’ that he makes good choices. I want him to >make good choices because he knows it is the right thing to do — regardless >of the ‘trouble’ he gets into. I felt like I should give him some >consequence for this, but I don’t think there are any that fit the crime. >I’m not into hitting my child so he fears me. > All that you said isn’t too bad, but why do you need to see this situation > as a "crime"? You said your child was outfront with you about why he did it > and what he felt. Isn’t that the whole point, without gilding the lily with > some ignorant "consequence"-based abuse which demeans him after the fact? > Why, after you have communicated successfully, would you see a need to > demean him yet somemore??
I haven’t given him any consequences yet because of that reason. I guess because of ‘parenting’ in my head, I feel like he should have some consequence, but I just can’t seem to do it. As a matter of fact, we talked about getting him a knife today — a small pocket knife. I had never knew he was interested in them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You need to read about Eskimo/Inuit children and how they carry knives to > cut blubber from the earliest age and virtually never cut themselves. Is > there no way that you can see fit to give your child the opportunity to be > regarded as an equal in the tools they can use? When MY son wanted a knife > we picked it out together and he wore it in a sheath at home for a while, > used it a lot, and was proud of it, and then it quickly became one more > thing to put on and it remained in his drawer and he only took it, in its > sheath, to where he wanted to use it, and otherwise it was sheathed. He got > it where he was 6, and he still has it somewhere in a drawer at age 28. It > meant that we trusted him, because we spoke at length at what can go wrong > carrying knives around, and he never did any of those things after our > discussion. And our discussion was not DON’T-based, it was what-if-based, > in other words it was merely informative as to how bad things can happen to > good people. > We did the same thing with matches, we let him practice with them as much > as he wanted as a small child, to learn to light them without fail, so that > he wouldn’t furtively light one and drop it and be afraid to tell anyone. > He practiced on the kitchen floor over a big roaster-bottom full of water > so he wouldn’t burn himself. Again, we discussed what to do if this or that > happened, and how people have to protect each other from their mistakes. > And then we let him light matches whenever we needed one lit, it was his > job.
That seems reasonable to me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Children need to be trusted with things so that they feel equal and mete to > the task of living and growing. They need respect just as much as you or > anyone does, and when they have people doubt them it demeans and demoralizes > them, and it makes growing up feeling confident and feeling loved entirely > impossible, because no one CAN feel loved by people who don’t trust them and > who don’t regard them as equals. > They need to hear that mistakes one can learn from, and that they have > learned after a mistake, and that they are trusted not to make the same > mistake. And this does NOT refer to decisions they decided to pursue > because they felt they were unfairly being demeaned and denied their > CHANCE to learn and to be an equal! This means real-world mistakes which > they did NOT intend. > If you start trying to punish what they intend you will actually turn > those intents TOWARD the hatred and revenge you don’t want! You have to > ALWAYS assume they intend nothing but good, and that the only bad things > that happen occur due to mistakes that they can learn from and learn about, > or you will produce a self-fulfilling prophesy, and you will make them your > enemy instead of your valued ally! > Children need the chances they want to take more than they need any > idiotic absolute protection from harm, because without them ALL THEY > *ARE* IS HARMED! It damages their soul forever! > Steve
Thank you. You aren’t the ASS I thought you were. 
I really do try to treat my child as an equal while keeping him safe. I allow him to take chances, supervised, as much as possible. Admittedly, it was very hard for me to do because it went against so much of what I’ve seen other parents do with their kids. I am a special ed teacher and many of my students have abusive families that I would like to lock up — the system doesn’t seem to take care of them. I never want my kids to grow up feeling like they were abused or disrepected or treated unfairly by me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Tell him that he has disappointed you, and that stealing things and lying >> "is just not like him". Don’t tell him that he is bad, tell him that the >> thing he did was bad. An important distinction, because you don’t want to >> reinforce any notion that he thinks himself to be bad. Tell him that you >> expect him to behave well because he is a good boy. Set the expectation >of >> what will happen in future by saying that next time you expect him to ask >if >> he wants to go in the workshop or use a knife. Concentrate on getting him >> to think of how good he is going to be, don’t spend much time dwelling on >> any bad thing he has done. >> I disagree with nearly all of what Steve says below. You decide for >> yourself. >> Ian. >> > >My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my >husband’s >> > >workshop. He is not allowed to play with knives, nor is he allowed to >go >> > >into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there >that >> > >could hurt him. He has known these rules and lived with these rules >> without >> > >a problem until now. When he was caught, he lied. Not only did he >lie, >> but >> > >he blamed his best friend. When we brought his friend over and >> confronted >> > >them together, he allowed his friend to get ‘chewed out’ while he said >> > >nothing. In my opinion he stole, lied, and betrayed his friend all in >> the >> > >matter of one hour. I know he needs consequences, but I don’t know >what >> to >> > >do. I want him to realize stealing etc. is wrong – morally. I want >him >> to >> > >not do this again because he knows it is wrong, not for fear of getting >> in >> > >trouble. Any advice? >> > It sounds like you don’t believe him. Sounds like you don’t know. Don’t >> > punish what you can’t be sure of. If he’s a fuck-up he’ll fuck-up again, >> > just wait. How do you KNOW he took those things??? *IF* you known for >sure >> > then you’d have punished him, unless YOU’RE not in charge of that. Now >> > which is it? >> > Also, consider, kids who are "not allowed" to this or that always DO, >> > ALWAYS DO, and they ALWAYS DO WITHOUT YOU! It TEACHES them to steal and >> > lie to you, and it justifies it in their mind, and I agree with them >> > because they won’t believe ANYTHING else about you then but that you are >a >> > force to be opposed, cheated, skirted, ignored, and walked right around! >> > You will cease to be something respected OR treasured. In light of that >> > truth you must realize that even if he took a knife from you, that he >WAS >> > MORALLY RIGHT TO DO SO JUST BECAUSE YOU’RE TRYING TO KEEP HIM FROM HIS >> > WORLD, and that is a crime against a child! >> > And that ruins your relationship with them for good and always. If you >> once >> > forbid a kid something he wants to do he will NEVER BE YOUR FRIEND >AGAIN, >> > it will
… read more »
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Thank you — I don’t usually even read what Richard writes because he is an >ASS. >I did tell him that he disappointed me. I told him he is not a bad person, >he just made some bad choices. I told him if he had wanted to see the >knife, he should have asked his father or myself. It is OK with >supervision, but it is dangerour without. I don’t want him to get hurt. I >think he was more upset because I was disappointed than anything else. We >talked about why he did it and he said his friend has brought a knife to our >house and he was jealous – he wanted one also. We talked about why I don’t >want him to play with knives (again) and he came up with very reasonable, >logical answers. He said he was torn between feeling guilty for doing it >(while it was going on) and being jealous of his friend. I realize, as >Richard says, when you tell a child they can’t do something, they want to. >I don’t tell him he can’t do much, but when it is dangerous to him, I have >to set limitations. I tell him he can’t play in traffic also — it is >dangerous. It doesn’t make him want to do it because I said he can’t. He >knows there are very few things he absolutely can’t do, so when there is >something it must be important — not that I am just ‘being mean’ but a good >reason behind it. I always reinforce to him that he is a good person — he >has goodness inside him. I think when things like this happen, it is a good >time to teach some morality. He did mention that it was ‘fun’ to get away >with something, but only at the time he was doing it. He said he felt so >bad after he did it, it was not so fun anymore. I never want him to be so >scared of getting ‘in trouble’ that he makes good choices. I want him to >make good choices because he knows it is the right thing to do — regardless >of the ‘trouble’ he gets into. I felt like I should give him some >consequence for this, but I don’t think there are any that fit the crime. >I’m not into hitting my child so he fears me.
All that you said isn’t too bad, but why do you need to see this situation as a "crime"? You said your child was outfront with you about why he did it and what he felt. Isn’t that the whole point, without gilding the lily with some ignorant "consequence"-based abuse which demeans him after the fact? Why, after you have communicated successfully, would you see a need to demean him yet somemore?? You need to read about Eskimo/Inuit children and how they carry knives to cut blubber from the earliest age and virtually never cut themselves. Is there no way that you can see fit to give your child the opportunity to be regarded as an equal in the tools they can use? When MY son wanted a knife we picked it out together and he wore it in a sheath at home for a while, used it a lot, and was proud of it, and then it quickly became one more thing to put on and it remained in his drawer and he only took it, in its sheath, to where he wanted to use it, and otherwise it was sheathed. He got it where he was 6, and he still has it somewhere in a drawer at age 28. It meant that we trusted him, because we spoke at length at what can go wrong carrying knives around, and he never did any of those things after our discussion. And our discussion was not DON’T-based, it was what-if-based, in other words it was merely informative as to how bad things can happen to good people. We did the same thing with matches, we let him practice with them as much as he wanted as a small child, to learn to light them without fail, so that he wouldn’t furtively light one and drop it and be afraid to tell anyone. He practiced on the kitchen floor over a big roaster-bottom full of water so he wouldn’t burn himself. Again, we discussed what to do if this or that happened, and how people have to protect each other from their mistakes. And then we let him light matches whenever we needed one lit, it was his job. Children need to be trusted with things so that they feel equal and mete to the task of living and growing. They need respect just as much as you or anyone does, and when they have people doubt them it demeans and demoralizes them, and it makes growing up feeling confident and feeling loved entirely impossible, because no one CAN feel loved by people who don’t trust them and who don’t regard them as equals. They need to hear that mistakes one can learn from, and that they have learned after a mistake, and that they are trusted not to make the same mistake. And this does NOT refer to decisions they decided to pursue because they felt they were unfairly being demeaned and denied their CHANCE to learn and to be an equal! This means real-world mistakes which they did NOT intend. If you start trying to punish what they intend you will actually turn those intents TOWARD the hatred and revenge you don’t want! You have to ALWAYS assume they intend nothing but good, and that the only bad things that happen occur due to mistakes that they can learn from and learn about, or you will produce a self-fulfilling prophesy, and you will make them your enemy instead of your valued ally! Children need the chances they want to take more than they need any idiotic absolute protection from harm, because without them ALL THEY *ARE* IS HARMED! It damages their soul forever! Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tell him that he has disappointed you, and that stealing things and lying > "is just not like him". Don’t tell him that he is bad, tell him that the > thing he did was bad. An important distinction, because you don’t want to > reinforce any notion that he thinks himself to be bad. Tell him that you > expect him to behave well because he is a good boy. Set the expectation >of > what will happen in future by saying that next time you expect him to ask >if > he wants to go in the workshop or use a knife. Concentrate on getting him > to think of how good he is going to be, don’t spend much time dwelling on > any bad thing he has done. > I disagree with nearly all of what Steve says below. You decide for > yourself. > Ian. > > >My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my >husband’s > > >workshop. He is not allowed to play with knives, nor is he allowed to >go > > >into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there >that > > >could hurt him. He has known these rules and lived with these rules > without > > >a problem until now. When he was caught, he lied. Not only did he >lie, > but > > >he blamed his best friend. When we brought his friend over and > confronted > > >them together, he allowed his friend to get ‘chewed out’ while he said > > >nothing. In my opinion he stole, lied, and betrayed his friend all in > the > > >matter of one hour. I know he needs consequences, but I don’t know >what > to > > >do. I want him to realize stealing etc. is wrong – morally. I want >him > to > > >not do this again because he knows it is wrong, not for fear of getting > in > > >trouble. Any advice? > > It sounds like you don’t believe him. Sounds like you don’t know. Don’t > > punish what you can’t be sure of. If he’s a fuck-up he’ll fuck-up again, > > just wait. How do you KNOW he took those things??? *IF* you known for >sure > > then you’d have punished him, unless YOU’RE not in charge of that. Now > > which is it? > > Also, consider, kids who are "not allowed" to this or that always DO, > > ALWAYS DO, and they ALWAYS DO WITHOUT YOU! It TEACHES them to steal and > > lie to you, and it justifies it in their mind, and I agree with them > > because they won’t believe ANYTHING else about you then but that you are >a > > force to be opposed, cheated, skirted, ignored, and walked right around! > > You will cease to be something respected OR treasured. In light of that > > truth you must realize that even if he took a knife from you, that he >WAS > > MORALLY RIGHT TO DO SO JUST BECAUSE YOU’RE TRYING TO KEEP HIM FROM HIS > > WORLD, and that is a crime against a child! > > And that ruins your relationship with them for good and always. If you > once > > forbid a kid something he wants to do he will NEVER BE YOUR FRIEND >AGAIN, > > it will ALWAYS BE A LIE, even when he says he loves you IT WILL BE A >LIE! > > It’s much better for kids to have knives than to have them WITHOUT YOU! > > It’s better to have a parent AND a knife than a knife and no parent! > > And those are your ONLY choices! Get used to it! > > Steve
Response:
> Just some things to think about Susan. > My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my husband’s > workshop. > Shall I assume you KNOW that HE took them? I learned very quickly that > when I asked my kids the location of something they usually pointed me > to some adult that had moved it or had it in his or her pocket. Kids > are actually, unless they have something functionally wrong or have > been taught to steal, are quite respectful of others > possessions…especially at your child’s age.
I do know he took them because to told me after I confronted his friend and him together. I had asked him before his friend came over to tell me what he knew about the situation and he told me his friend went in and took them. I believed him. > He is not allowed to play with knives, > I find this genuinely a bit of a shock. I’ll assume your child is > developmentally on track for a 7 year old. Boy or girl, the access to > tools is extremely important to children of this age (I’ll explain way > in a bit) and nature itself drives them especially hard to this end > around this age.
I agree. I talked to him about this today and told him that I think he probably is old enough to have a pocket knife (like his friends have) at this age. He is actually very mature for his age, but it just never occured to me because he never mentioned an interest in it. As a matter of fact, last weekend we had just been talking about going out to the shooting range and teaching him how to shoot. I am slow sometimes. As far as the tools go, I don’t know how to use them myself. I have a baby daughter that I don’t want out there while I’m trying to teach my son (and myself) how to use power tools. My husband (his step father) doesn’t seem too willing to work with my son too much. I am trying to encourage it (and have been for some time), but he will act like I’m bugging him and he will work with my son very rarely. I agree that he would love to work with him. My father dies three years ago, so that option is out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> nor is he allowed to go > into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there that > could hurt him. > "Things" don’t hurt people. Misuse of things can though. Why has a 7 > year old not been taught how to use these things with ample > opportunity to have you or his father, on demand respond to his need > to manipulate his environment…that is, to learn to use tools? > He has known these rules and lived with these rules without > a problem until now. > I don’t see how that isn’t a huge clue to you. Time passes, children > develop on natures plan, not your convenience…(trust me on this or > Mother Nature will slap you crosseyed). > When he was caught, > You start right off by portraying him as a criminal instead of a child > responding to the natural imperative off all life, the flourish, > expand, gain control over it’s environment. You are fighting nature, > and through nature, your child. Bad outcomes are pretty much > gauranteed unless you start learning and start changing your world > view from punishing controlling parent to a supportive partner in the > child’s learning. > That statement was as much as asking Ma Nature to smack you a good > one.
Actually, I didn’t start by accusing him. I found the stuff and asked him if he knew anything about it. He freaked out and started crying and denying any knowledge and automatically blamed his friend. That is when I said that maybe we should talk to his friend. I used that statement here, but I did not treat him like a criminal. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> he lied. > He protected himself the best he knew how, given that instead of being > asked > "what’s up"? he was accused criminally. You do when the cop pulls you > over on a traffic stop, and when your best friend asks if you like her > new hairdo. Get with the program. This isn’t a liar, this is a child > doing what you do, but block him from doing. > How about asking him what’s up, and what plan could all cooperate in > to start pretty rapidly allowing him resource access…that means, let > him set some learning goals and you obey as you are supposed to and > make it happen for him. > Not only did he lie, but > he blamed his best friend. > He is scared shitless of you if he did that. (on the other hand who’s > to say his friend wasn’t involved?) > He was hoping with numbers you two would stop accusing and start > thinking. In fact HE wasn’t really hoping, nature was giving you a > break and you blew it. That concept of child as evil is going to ruin > humankind one day. It is YOU who are evil to let this color your view > of your precious gift from nature doing what he must do. > When we brought his friend over and confronted > them together, he allowed his friend to get ‘chewed out’ while he said > nothing. > What was he supposed to do while nature impelled him to wait and see > if could sort it out. He can’t yet, he’s seven. You are presumably a > rational adult, but you aren’t a very wise or learned one if you are > calling a curious, energetic, determined explorer a "liar." > Nature is far wiser than you. Listen to it. Watch it. Be a servant to > it and to him and the rewards can be beyond your wildest dreams. You > could have an Edison or Tesla on your hands and instead of loading him > up with stimulating learning you are punishing him for being natural. > In my opinion he stole, lied, and betrayed his friend all in the > matter of one hour. > In my opinion his beloved (to me, but certainly not to ME) parents > overloaded his circuits with guilt, shame, fear, and suppression of > the most precious thing in human beings…their ability to think, > which he was busy exploring. > Find out what happens to a child’s brain in that 6th year. The change > is what drove him, while you guys were trying to control and keep him > a helpless baby by enforcing rules that were going rapidly out of date > and need. He needs you assistance to have MORE exposure to his > environment now, not less, or you’ll get a mental defective that will > make you pay pay pay bigtime when he is in his teens. And it won’t be > his fault, just nature paying you back for disrupting human growth. > I know he needs consequences, but I don’t know what to > do. > I do. You get him and his buddy together and apologize big time. NO > EXCUSES, NO WEASELING. You need to admit that misjudged his maturity > and growing and judgement and MEAN IT BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG WRONG > WRONG. Then ask them both to sit down with some peaches and icecream > with you (I LOVE peaches and icecream…arh arh arh) and start working > on plans of how to give your child and his buddy MORE not less space > and access. > Watch those little faces light up with excitement, trust (well, you > may have to wait a bit for that given your rude thoughtless > behavior…and it was rude and you didn’t think, now did you?) and > eagerness to plan a future they will get either with your help or > behind your back. > I want him to realize stealing etc. is wrong – morally. > Okay. Use yourself as an example. Admit to him that in mistaken > reaction (you didn’t understand that he wanted to explore and learn) > you stole his confidence, his energy, his bravery and courage, and > replaced it with fear, and a sense of little worth, and ask him to > forgive you and help you do better next time. > If you think your kid is hard to control watch what happens when you > give a seven year old more control. It’s time for him to take over and > is long overdue. You should have been doing these things from early > infancy. > I want him to > not do this again because he knows it is wrong, not for fear of getting in > trouble. Any advice? > Then you need to stop calling him a criminal, a liar, a thief. And > call him what he is, precious gift from the universe, that you are > here to assist, so that when he has children, your grandchildren, he > will naturally be their assistant. > Hope it works out for you, but if not, then I hope he sneaks away and > does what he has to to learn how to survive and flourish in the real > world, not the phony moralistic morass that you must have come out of. > You wouldn’t accuse your own flesh and blood of thevery and dishonesty > were that not so.
I think you have seriously misjudged me. I didn’t call my son a liar, a thief, or a criminal. I told him he made some bad choices and talked about why he did it. He is not scared of me. I have not done anything to him in his life to make him scared of me. He is scared of ‘getting in trouble’, but the worst trouble he’s ever gotten in is not being able to see his friend for a few days about a year ago. We usually talk things about in a very respectful manner. I am not an overbearing bitch. > You can break that cycle in five minutes…just apologise and become > your child’s assistant. He is the explorer, you two are the bearers. > Get used to it or get out and look for someone to adopt him that will > help him.
It really amazes me that people here give some really good advise and then get into hurtful crap that does no good. My son is not hard to handle. As a matter of fact, he is a very good kid — I tell him so often. I love him more than anything in this world — which I also tell him often. I can make mistakes just as he can make mistakes. I admit to him when I make these mistakes. If I ever react to something he does irrationally, I absolutely apopogize to him. It has happened in the past, but surely not in this situation. I don’t know if you realize how it feels when your child takes something and then lies about it for the first time. It is hard to think about, but I do think about … read more »
Response:
I know he lied because he admitted he did. He said it "occured to him that he might as well tell the truth and he let it all out." I did believe him at first, because I have caught his friend in a few lies in the past, so I believed my son. When he admitted he took the knife and washers I was surprised, because I had believed his original story. As far as getting in trouble – I am not into harsh punishment. I try to give him logical consequences for his actions. I don’t spank my kids. I spanked him when he was about 2 years old because he was trying to stick a key into a light socket, and I think I did it out of being very scared. Short time out has worked very well with my son, so I try to stick with that – no more time than his years. In other words, when he was 5 – 5 minutes, now it is 7 minutes. I tell him it is a time to think about what he did and what he could have done differently. He has worked with his dad in the workshop, although I’m sure more of that would benefit him. Unfortunately his dad doesn’t seem to want to take the time to do that very much. I don’t really know how to change that.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> misc.kids added >My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my husband’s >workshop. He is not allowed to play with knives, nor is he allowed to go >into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there that >could hurt him. He has known these rules and lived with these rules without >a problem until now. > His curiosity may have gotten the better of him in regard to the > things in the workshop. Rather than forbid him from the workshop, > maybe dad can have him help build something and show him how > to handle tools safely. You can also let him satisfy his curiosity > about the various tools that are too unsafe for him, but allowing > him to watch dad and explaining what might happen if he slips with > them. At 7, he can safely use many of the tools under close > supervision. Also for something like the washers, you may want to > ask him what he intended to do with them and assure him that he can > have some to use in whatever project he was attempting with them. > Note also that rules need to change as children get older and become > more competent, so perhaps now is a good time to review any of your > rules and to get his input on what should be changed. Brainstorm > with him and you may be surprised at the things he can come up with. >When he was caught, he lied. > How do you know that he lied? >Not only did he lie, but he blamed his best friend. When we brought his >friend over and confronted them together, he allowed his friend to get >’chewed out’ while he said nothing. In my opinion he stole, lied, and >betrayed his friend all in the matter of one hour. > You say you believe that he stole, lied and let his friend take the > blame? Why do you believe this and not believe what he said about > it? >I know he needs consequences, but I don’t know what to do. I >want him to realize stealing etc. is wrong – morally. I want him to >not do this again because he knows it is wrong, not for fear of getting >in trouble. Any advice? > Tell him that stealing is wrong > Help him to pay for or return the stolen object > Make sure that the child does not benefit from the theft in any way > Avoid lecturing, predicting future bad behavior, or saying that they > now consider the child to be a thief or a bad person > Make clear that this behavior is totally unacceptable within the > family tradition and the community > As for the lying, it is only from about seven to eight years old > that children can fully understand the difference between truth > and lies – before that they are not ‘lying’ in the adult sense. > Children do lie to avoid punishment – the more a child is punished > harshly, the more they will lie to avoid it – "Jack did it, it > wasn’t me". > He needs to understand that you will still love him even if when he > does something wrong. He needs to learn that honesty is the best > policy. > Dorothy > There is no sound, no cry in all the world > that can be heard unless someone listens .. > source unknown
Response:
Just some things to think about Susan. > My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my husband’s > workshop.
Shall I assume you KNOW that HE took them? I learned very quickly that when I asked my kids the location of something they usually pointed me to some adult that had moved it or had it in his or her pocket. Kids are actually, unless they have something functionally wrong or have been taught to steal, are quite respectful of others possessions…especially at your child’s age. > He is not allowed to play with knives,
I find this genuinely a bit of a shock. I’ll assume your child is developmentally on track for a 7 year old. Boy or girl, the access to tools is extremely important to children of this age (I’ll explain way in a bit) and nature itself drives them especially hard to this end around this age. > nor is he allowed to go > into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there that > could hurt him.
"Things" don’t hurt people. Misuse of things can though. Why has a 7 year old not been taught how to use these things with ample opportunity to have you or his father, on demand respond to his need to manipulate his environment…that is, to learn to use tools? > He has known these rules and lived with these rules without > a problem until now.
I don’t see how that isn’t a huge clue to you. Time passes, children develop on natures plan, not your convenience…(trust me on this or Mother Nature will slap you crosseyed). > When he was caught,
You start right off by portraying him as a criminal instead of a child responding to the natural imperative off all life, the flourish, expand, gain control over it’s environment. You are fighting nature, and through nature, your child. Bad outcomes are pretty much gauranteed unless you start learning and start changing your world view from punishing controlling parent to a supportive partner in the child’s learning. That statement was as much as asking Ma Nature to smack you a good one. > he lied.
He protected himself the best he knew how, given that instead of being asked "what’s up"? he was accused criminally. You do when the cop pulls you over on a traffic stop, and when your best friend asks if you like her new hairdo. Get with the program. This isn’t a liar, this is a child doing what you do, but block him from doing. How about asking him what’s up, and what plan could all cooperate in to start pretty rapidly allowing him resource access…that means, let him set some learning goals and you obey as you are supposed to and make it happen for him. > Not only did he lie, but > he blamed his best friend.
He is scared shitless of you if he did that. (on the other hand who’s to say his friend wasn’t involved?) He was hoping with numbers you two would stop accusing and start thinking. In fact HE wasn’t really hoping, nature was giving you a break and you blew it. That concept of child as evil is going to ruin humankind one day. It is YOU who are evil to let this color your view of your precious gift from nature doing what he must do. > When we brought his friend over and confronted > them together, he allowed his friend to get ‘chewed out’ while he said > nothing.
What was he supposed to do while nature impelled him to wait and see if could sort it out. He can’t yet, he’s seven. You are presumably a rational adult, but you aren’t a very wise or learned one if you are calling a curious, energetic, determined explorer a "liar." Nature is far wiser than you. Listen to it. Watch it. Be a servant to it and to him and the rewards can be beyond your wildest dreams. You could have an Edison or Tesla on your hands and instead of loading him up with stimulating learning you are punishing him for being natural. > In my opinion he stole, lied, and betrayed his friend all in the > matter of one hour.
In my opinion his beloved (to me, but certainly not to ME) parents overloaded his circuits with guilt, shame, fear, and suppression of the most precious thing in human beings…their ability to think, which he was busy exploring. Find out what happens to a child’s brain in that 6th year. The change is what drove him, while you guys were trying to control and keep him a helpless baby by enforcing rules that were going rapidly out of date and need. He needs you assistance to have MORE exposure to his environment now, not less, or you’ll get a mental defective that will make you pay pay pay bigtime when he is in his teens. And it won’t be his fault, just nature paying you back for disrupting human growth. > I know he needs consequences, but I don’t know what to > do.
I do. You get him and his buddy together and apologize big time. NO EXCUSES, NO WEASELING. You need to admit that misjudged his maturity and growing and judgement and MEAN IT BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG. Then ask them both to sit down with some peaches and icecream with you (I LOVE peaches and icecream…arh arh arh) and start working on plans of how to give your child and his buddy MORE not less space and access. Watch those little faces light up with excitement, trust (well, you may have to wait a bit for that given your rude thoughtless behavior…and it was rude and you didn’t think, now did you?) and eagerness to plan a future they will get either with your help or behind your back. > I want him to realize stealing etc. is wrong – morally.
Okay. Use yourself as an example. Admit to him that in mistaken reaction (you didn’t understand that he wanted to explore and learn) you stole his confidence, his energy, his bravery and courage, and replaced it with fear, and a sense of little worth, and ask him to forgive you and help you do better next time. If you think your kid is hard to control watch what happens when you give a seven year old more control. It’s time for him to take over and is long overdue. You should have been doing these things from early infancy. > I want him to > not do this again because he knows it is wrong, not for fear of getting in > trouble. Any advice?
Then you need to stop calling him a criminal, a liar, a thief. And call him what he is, precious gift from the universe, that you are here to assist, so that when he has children, your grandchildren, he will naturally be their assistant. Hope it works out for you, but if not, then I hope he sneaks away and does what he has to to learn how to survive and flourish in the real world, not the phony moralistic morass that you must have come out of. You wouldn’t accuse your own flesh and blood of thevery and dishonesty were that not so. You can break that cycle in five minutes…just apologise and become your child’s assistant. He is the explorer, you two are the bearers. Get used to it or get out and look for someone to adopt him that will help him. Bye bye. Kane
Response:
misc.kids added >My seven year old son took a knife and a box of washers from my husband’s >workshop. He is not allowed to play with knives, nor is he allowed to go >into the workshop without an adult because there are things in there that >could hurt him. He has known these rules and lived with these rules without >a problem until now.
His curiosity may have gotten the better of him in regard to the things in the workshop. Rather than forbid him from the workshop, maybe dad can have him help build something and show him how to handle tools safely. You can also let him satisfy his curiosity about the various tools that are too unsafe for him, but allowing him to watch dad and explaining what might happen if he slips with them. At 7, he can safely use many of the tools under close supervision. Also for something like the washers, you may want to ask him what he intended to do with them and assure him that he can have some to use in whatever project he was attempting with them. Note also that rules need to change as children get older and become more competent, so perhaps now is a good time to review any of your rules and to get his input on what should be changed. Brainstorm with him and you may be surprised at the things he can come up with. >When he was caught, he lied.
How do you know that he lied? >Not only did he lie, but he blamed his best friend. When we brought his >friend over and confronted them together, he allowed his friend to get >’chewed out’ while he said nothing. In my opinion he stole, lied, and >betrayed his friend all in the matter of one hour.
You say you believe that he stole, lied and let his friend take the blame? Why do you believe this and not believe what he said about it? >I know he needs consequences, but I don’t know what to do. I >want him to realize stealing etc. is wrong – morally. I want him to >not do this again because he knows it is wrong, not for fear of getting >in trouble. Any advice?
Tell him that stealing is wrong Help him to pay for or return the stolen object Make sure that the child does not benefit from the theft in any way Avoid lecturing, predicting future bad behavior, or saying that they now consider the child to be a thief or a bad person Make clear that this behavior is totally unacceptable within the family tradition and the community As for the lying, it is only from about seven to eight years old that children can fully understand the difference between truth and lies
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