Question:
Gnosis, Just my two bits here. Marylin and I have rather different religeous views, and no doubt parent quite differently too. However, we get along, and dicourse civilly on a variety of things. She has never attacked you (so far as I can tell), nor called you names or anything else. Why do you insist on belittling her and her beleifs? Show some courtesy and respect, and you may learn something. And even if you don’t, Jesus’s advice to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is valid even from my viewpoint out in left field. Kyle
Response:
Unfortunately, even by responding to Marilyn I am beginning to feel that I am strenthening and lending validity to her claims. She can quote preachers and so-called "biblical scholars" but not once can she provide New Testament Biblical sources. There is a very good reason for this…they do not exist. I feel her contribution to this newsgroup may have been very enlightening.
Response:
: Unfortunately, even by responding to Marilyn I am beginning to feel : that I am strenthening and lending validity to her claims. She can : quote preachers and so-called "biblical scholars" but not once can she : provide New Testament Biblical sources. Gee. The New Testament, which is composed of the story of a rabbi, the travellings of his disciples, various letters of advice to several churches, and a series of visions, doesn’t touch on whether or not one should physically punish children. *AMAZING*. I mean, you’re just a wellspring of useful information.
Response:
Marilyn, Oh…I dunno…guess it would have been an interesting opportunity to examine what passes for thinking on the part of your no-doubt great scholars and theologians… I NEVER stated that I wanted to debate you. Those were YOU’RE words…and you still haven’t managed to answer a single question I originally put to you. And my, you do have a rather unique ability to avoid answering direct statements or questions. By the way – reread the last 2 sentences of your "3 views" post. They don’t make any grammatical sense (not that any of it DOES make sense). My posts have been vehement because I believe you and those like you represent a CRIMINAL danger to society. Let’s see if i’ve got this right: We should all hit our children with sticks until they’re bruised and "broken", so to speak lest they rebel and Jesus sends them to Hell. Gotcha… Y’know…I really don’t know whether or not there’s a special place reserved in Hell for people like you. I just figured that since people have probably been telling you’re going there since you were about two, you’d be used to it by now. Oh yeah…did I mention that the doctrine you wrote about in "3 views" was once applied by your (not "my" or "our") scholars and theologians to include WIVES as well? I guess a couple of centuries worth of protest by women was enough to convince you that maybe you all were wrong about that one, eh? Too bad your children were never afforded that same opportunity. See ya… Gnosis
Response:
Gnosis dear, I honestly don’t know what you want. It appears like a debate to me but then I am only a poor housewife and hardly an intellectual of your obvious accomplishments. I thought I did answer your diatribe. Let me try again. 1) Are fundamentalists all southernors? No, the fundamentals were written at the suggestion (and financing) of two california oil men during the 1920’s. Dr. Jack Hyles who heads Hyles Anderson College and wrote three of the books on child rearing I mentioned in part 1 of my three views is from Indiana as was Billy Sunday. The main Evangelical college is probably Wheaton in Wheaton, Ill. near Chicago. If we look only at independant baptists, a small part of those who call themselves proudly, fundamentalists, there are over 3000 churches nationwide. You can find us in the yellow pages under Baptist-Independant. 2) Is conservative christianity a relatively recent invention. No, conservative christianity as it affects those doctrines which create the foundation for parenting probably comprised most christians everywhere until the mid nineteenth century when the social gospel and other instances of modernism began to make inroads particularly among the elite.. The Roman Church differs from Protestantism on some issues<g> but if you ignore the left represented by liberation theology and a few feminists in habits (or more accurately out of habits) I believe conservative catholics and conservative protestants have more in common than either have with the Mainline (not main stream whatever that means) churches. Studies seem to show that conservative churches are growing at the expense of the main line denominations. 3) Why won’t you debate (discuss?) the bible with me. Because this is a parenting board not a religion board and I cannot imagine that many people want to pay to download you and I throwing bible verses at each other. My point which I will restate is that whether parents ought to spank their kids or ought not to spank their kids is an ethical issue not a factual or scientific issue and consequently men and women can reasonably differ on the issue based upon differing ethical norms and different philosophies of life. I used christianity as an example of an ethical system that does not accept the humanist goals that most arguments in this venue ultimately rely upon. I suppose I quoted some to the writers from the christian community both staunch supporters of spanking and those I call moderate to show just how many men and women there were who didn’t buy the humanist party line. Ever Reasonable, Marilyn (the quiet housewife)
Response:
Folks – Some of you may be getting tired of this, and this might be my about how "Christian Parents" should use the "rod" on their children, "breaking them" until they are "bruised", lest Jesus (her words) send them to hell for being rebellious. Several of us have attempted to get this woman to back up this sort of perverse so-called "christianity" with some sort of statement on where she finds this kind of JUNK in the Bible. So far, she has quoted scores of fundamentalist scholars and sources, but not once has she backed in up with ONE WORD from the Lord’s own mouth… For those of you who are not Christians or hold some Judeo-Christian beliefs, you can pass on this post and move on… >Gnosis dear, > I honestly don’t know what you want. It appears like a >debate to me but then I am only a poor housewife and hardly an >intellectual of your obvious accomplishments. I thought I did answer your >diatribe. Let me try again.
A quick sampling of your previous posts would rather show that YOU seem to suffer from intellectual bigotry. You also seem incapable of answering any direct question which appears to challenge your rather limited viewpoint. Diatribe? I hardly think so. My points were an attempt to get your answers (Your answers Marilyn – how YOU interpret scripture – how YOU feel personally about Jesus’ relationship with children, NOT what you’ve been programmed to believe, but what you believe our Lord is saying to YOU in scripture), not the opinions of fundamentalist theologians.
"Bright people like Marilyn sometimes underestimate the intelligence of those of us with more average smarts. The more intelligent someone is, the fewer people they are likely to have met who are an intellectual match for them. At the higher ends of the IQ curve, one finds persons who, due to a combination of intellectual gifts, and haughty pride, don’t think ANYONE they have met is smarter than they. Such people are accustomed to winning every argument, or, if this isn’t possible, to bamboozling their opponent with erudition and vocabulary. For this reason, high IQ individuals of this sort are VERY poor losers." I believe this says it quite well. You continue: > 1) Are fundamentalists all southernors? No, the fundamentals >were written at the suggestion (and financing) of two california oil men >during the 1920’s. Dr. Jack Hyles who heads Hyles Anderson College and >wrote three of the books on child rearing I mentioned in part 1 of my >three views is from Indiana as was Billy Sunday. The main Evangelical >college is probably Wheaton in Wheaton, Ill. near Chicago. If we look >only at independant baptists, a small part of those who call themselves >proudly, fundamentalists, there are over 3000 churches nationwide. You can >find us in the yellow pages under Baptist-Independant.
Nice try, Marilyn. I was of course refering to the sort of doctrine and dogma that developed in the so-called "Bible-belt" during the late 18th and early 19th Century. I in NO WAY infered that all fundamentalists were Southerners… > 2) Is conservative christianity a relatively recent invention. >No, conservative christianity as it affects those doctrines which create >the foundation for parenting probably comprised most christians everywhere >until the mid nineteenth century when the social gospel and other >instances of modernism began to make inroads particularly among the >elite.. The Roman Church differs from Protestantism on some issues<g> >but if you ignore the left represented by liberation theology and a few >feminists in habits (or more accurately out of habits) I believe >conservative catholics and conservative protestants have more in common >than either have with the Mainline (not main stream whatever that means) >churches. Studies seem to show that conservative churches are growing at >the expense of the main line denominations.
I don’t think you understand the difference between Mainstream Christian Churches (represented by the RC Church, the Anglo-Catholics (Anglican and Episcopal),the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Southern Baptist Convention, The American Baptist Convention, et. al. – the list goes on), and the score of cultist-cum-christian organizations such as many of the Independent Baptist Churches represent. My ex-wife’s family belonged to such a "church" – I understand them more than you know. The references to the Social Gospel and so-called "Modernism" exist in the minds of fundamentalist scholars. I would like to suggest that you start reading the works of REAL theologians, Marilyn. Eusebius, Augustine, Guthrie, De Vaux, Kung…ever hear of ‘em? In any event, this sort of Christianity has NOTHING to do with the Christianity of Saul Paulus of Tarsus and the early Christian Church. It has more to do with the abomination it turned into during the Middle Ages. > 3) Why won’t you debate (discuss?) the bible with me. Because >this is a parenting board not a religion board and I cannot imagine that >many people want to pay to download you and I throwing bible verses at >each other. My point which I will restate is that whether parents ought >to spank their kids or ought not to spank their kids is an ethical issue >not a factual or scientific issue and consequently men and women can >reasonably differ on the issue based upon differing ethical norms and >different philosophies of life. I used christianity as an example of an >ethical system that does not accept the humanist goals that most arguments >in this venue ultimately rely upon. I suppose I quoted some to the >writers from the christian community both staunch supporters of spanking >and those I call moderate to show just how many men and women there were >who didn’t buy the humanist party line.
NO MARILYN!!! OH NO YOU DON’T!!! I never said I wanted to debate the Bible with you. My original questions were an attempt to get you to respond as to WHERE JESUS EVER SAID we should beat our children. He wanted us to teach them through our example – he never told us to hit them in the manner you prescribe. ANY posts on the subject of child rearing are pertinent to BOTH groups. Folks – here’s a little better example of Marilyn’s thoughts on "Christian" child-rearing: =Newsgroups: alt.parenting.solutions = =LaVonne, Hal, Gnosis, = =Jesus talked far more about =Hell than he ever did about heaven. Would Jesus spank? Well the worst =spanking I ever got took about five minutes to deliver though keeping me =in place took some additional time and hurt for an hour or so. Hell lasts =forever. Would Jesus Spank? Gnosis, Jesus is appointed by God to judge =the living and the dead and decide on judgment day who will be on his =right side and who his left. Would Jesus Spank? Gnosis, Jesus will damn, =children and adults to eternal pain. Measured against an eternity in Hell, =a spanking is small potatoes indeed. Well…for any of you who are intimate with the New Testament, you can see the problem here. I think it’s sad that people like this woman will continue to teach their children the love of God by beating it into them rather than being examples OF IT. Marilyn believes that the loving, living God sends children to Hell, and therefore they need to be beaten in order to squelch such rebellion which might send them there. And NO, Marilyn – stop listening to your cultist-preachers and READ IT FOR YOURSELF!!! Christ speaks FAR MORE about Heaven than he does on the subject of Hell. Funny, she never did respond to my question as to why fundamentalists don’t include WIVES in their views on "the rod" like they did in the "good old days". There again, she never has responded to ANYTHING I’ve ever asked her. Not directly, anyhow. >Ever Reasonable, >Marilyn >(the quiet housewife)
Marilyn – You’re a kook. End of discussion. Gnosis
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