Pure Parents

Question:

A more important question to ponder, all you Yanks, is how these fine young angst ridden gentlemen had access to automatic weapons, explosives and huge quantities of ammunition. Like, what is wrong with this picture..? And in fact, how is it that you can purchase automatic weapons in the US for ANY reason. Maybe to go duck hunting with?? And please don’t tell me that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. If they had to resort to their fists, or a knife, or driving their car into a crowd, the death toll would have been significantly reduced.

Response:

— origin: alt.parenting.solutions: >|A more important question to ponder, all you Yanks, is how these fine young >|angst ridden gentlemen had access to automatic weapons, explosives and huge >|quantities of ammunition. Like, what is wrong with this picture..? And in >|fact, how is it that you can purchase automatic weapons in the US for ANY >|reason. Maybe to go duck hunting with?? >| >|And please don’t tell me that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. If >|they had to resort to their fists, or a knife, or driving their car into a >|crowd, the death toll would have been significantly reduced.

I don’t know how they got hold of the guns but according to the reports, the explosives were home-made. Erikc (alt.atheist #002) | "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil." BAAWA Knight             |      "The Truth against the World." ICQ 26776011             |                           — Bardic Motto If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don’t believe in it at all.    —- Noam Chomsky

Response:

> My kids are >being raised color blind with the knowledge that everyone is different and >people come in all shapes, sizes, colors and beliefs.  My kids will know that >striving to be different from the "pack" is a good thing.  They will learn to >be independent thinkers with common sense, compassion for anyone and >everyone. >They will be taught to respect authority at all times but voice their >concerns >about anything that doesn’t feel right to them.    Does that help you?

I, too, am trying to raise my kids this way.  But as my children have moved into their teens, "fitting in" and being part of the "pack" is tremendously important.  I have tried to stress to my kids that it takes a whole lot of mental energy and effort to try to fit in and, if it’s not who you are, you’re going to be in constant inner conflict.  Patrick, at 15, is just beginning to internalize that idea, but he’s a long way from being completely at ease with himself.  We are a tolerant family, we have a lot of compassion, and we demonstrate it.  What I’m beginning to see now is what my son has internalized and what he is still struggling with.  Erin, at 12, is just beginning to face some serious outsider issues at school, where her interests aren’t meshing well with other girls her age.  And she has the body-image issues to deal with as well. We (DH and I) try our best to keep the lines of communication open, which often happens while we’re in the car on the way to the store or something.  We do the best we can to communicate our values by word and deed, but in the end, our children will choose for themselves the values they want to live by. Denise …mom to Patrick (15), Erin (12), Sean (8), and Kiera (5)…

Response:

> Beware.   I have heard that the popular kids are usually the ones into > drugs.   Not sure if it’s true, just heard it first hand from some > students. > Norma

It all depends on what the "popular" kids are into.  Many popular kids will do anything to stay that way.  For some it’s smoking (cigarettes) for others it’s sex. I had a friend who slept with a guy (she was a virgin) who she met at a party.  Seems "everyone" in her little clique was having sex and teasing her for being a virgin, so she decided she had better do something about it. I haven’t seen her for over a year, but the last time I did she was not a very happy person.  No kids but also no respect and no love. — Paige GO LEAFS!!! proud to be Outlandish "when the guy who invented the drawing board got it wrong, what did he go back to?"

Response:

You are right on the gun thing. Personally, I think all Americans should turn in their weapons (automatic, hunting, pistols, EVERYTHING) to the cops. Unforunately, we have lots of hillbillies and Charlton Heston who will fight for the "right" to have guns. However, the explosives you can make right in your home using cleaning products and gasoline with recipies off the Internet. So, even if they didn’t have any guns at all they still could have made pipe bombs, malatov cocktails, timed bombs EASILY. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >A more important question to ponder, all you Yanks, is how these fine young >angst ridden gentlemen had access to automatic weapons, explosives and huge >quantities of ammunition. Like, what is wrong with this picture..? And in >fact, how is it that you can purchase automatic weapons in the US for ANY >reason. Maybe to go duck hunting with?? >And please don’t tell me that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. If >they had to resort to their fists, or a knife, or driving their car into a >crowd, the death toll would have been significantly reduced.

Response:

The reason they were targeting the jocks is that the jocks had a history of beating them up and harrassing them because they were bi-sexual. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >It’s my understanding that this was less a situation of "outcasts" >having taken enough … than possible connection to hate crimes. >The suspects wore swastikas and their idol was Hitler.  They >targeted minorities and athletes.  That’s what I read this morning >in the news. >Kandle >I don’t think that Petie is condoning the shootings.  The fact is just >being >brought out how much the outcasts are hurting. You truly must have been the >popular, captain of the football team kind of guy with lots of friends. >Please don’t try and understand where we are coming from when you have no >idea! >>  All over >> > America in high schools and junior high schools, there are kids who are >> > made fun of and made outcasts (like the Trench Coat Mafia Kids) by the >popular >> > kids and "beautiful" kids of the schools. >> > It is my firm standing that the Colorado shooters had taken enough crap >and >> > riducle from the popular kids in their school >> Many of those "beautiful" kids are just as insecure and unhappy as the >> ones who feel they are "outcasts." You sound like an angry, outcast kid >> yourself.  Quit blaming the victims. Lots of kids are teased and >> unhappy. They don’t go out and shoot people. You make it sound like >> revenge was a perfectly normal and reasonable response. Sick!

Response:

Kendra, Read the new threads I posted this morning. The Trenchcoat mafia was ridiculed by the jocks because they were bi-sexual. The jocks had been harassing them for over a year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I was sick and tired of seeing that subject line (mean snobby youths must take >blame….) >I’m sure everyone has read what the papers have to say about the shooting, but >since several people are so sure that harassement to the point of breaking was >the reason for the killing, I wanted to quote a couple of lines: >*Emphasis is mine, not the papers* >—— >"(one student) said the two suspects were "social outcasts" who spent MUCH of >their time playing "war games like ‘Battle Tech,’ but they would take it to the >EXTREME." >"One youth was known to keep on his black beret and dark sunglasses even inside >friends’ homes," >"Tuesday was Hitlers Birthday, an occasion for demonstrations, mock funerals >and other macabre comemorations among Neo-Nazis and parts of the Gothic scene." >—– >To me, if the above is accurate, says that these kids were not pushed beyond >any point where they couldn’t think of any other way to fight back.  If these >reports are accurate, these boys were fascinated by violence and acted it out >regularly.   >The "social outcast" comment, was in my opinion,  *because*  of the war games >and Gothic fascination. >My $2.00 >Kendra >*Proud to be Outlandish!* >http://www.geocities.com/heartland/lane/6516

Response:

Beware.   I have heard that the popular kids are usually the ones into drugs.   Not sure if it’s true, just heard it first hand from some students. Norma

: :> My kids are :>being raised color blind with the knowledge that everyone is different and :>people come in all shapes, sizes, colors and beliefs.  My kids will know that :>striving to be different from the "pack" is a good thing.  They will learn to :>be independent thinkers with common sense, compassion for anyone and :>everyone. :>They will be taught to respect authority at all times but voice their :>concerns :>about anything that doesn’t feel right to them.    Does that help you? : :I, too, am trying to raise my kids this way.  But as my children have moved :into their teens, "fitting in" and being part of the "pack" is tremendously :important.  I have tried to stress to my kids that it takes a whole lot of :mental energy and effort to try to fit in and, if it’s not who you are, you’re :going to be in constant inner conflict.  Patrick, at 15, is just beginning to :internalize that idea, but he’s a long way from being completely at ease with :himself.  We are a tolerant family, we have a lot of compassion, and we :demonstrate it.  What I’m beginning to see now is what my son has internalized :and what he is still struggling with.  Erin, at 12, is just beginning to face :some serious outsider issues at school, where her interests aren’t meshing well :with other girls her age.  And she has the body-image issues to deal with as :well. : :We (DH and I) try our best to keep the lines of communication open, which often :happens while we’re in the car on the way to the store or something.  We do the :best we can to communicate our values by word and deed, but in the end, our :children will choose for themselves the values they want to live by. : enise :…mom to Patrick (15), Erin (12), Sean (8), and Kiera (5)…

Response:

:A more important question to ponder, all you Yanks, is how these fine young :angst ridden gentlemen had access to automatic weapons, explosives and huge :quantities of ammunition. Like, what is wrong with this picture..? And in :fact, how is it that you can purchase automatic weapons in the US for ANY :reason. Maybe to go duck hunting with?? : :And please don’t tell me that guns don’t kill people, people kill people. If :they had to resort to their fists, or a knife, or driving their car into a :crowd, the death toll would have been significantly reduced. : Agreed.   They were in criminal possession of illegal firearms, though. Are you British?    Do any people ever get illegal firearms there?   Is it very tight control there?   I venture to say "Yes".    Here in the US, there is token control over firearms.   But you can order them through the mail.    I wish for much more stringent firearm control in the US.   For instance, there is no need for automatic weapons at all.   Not unless you are in the military and are in a guerella war   And a sawed off shotgun is highly illegal, yet they exist.   In my opinion, we Americans have a country where the almighty "freedom" to own, or do things is taken to such an extreme as to be highly detrimental to the good of the average citizen. We need tighter laws, and we need to get rid of organizations like the Civil Liberties Union and the NRA, for pete’s sake.    Call me a pacifist, I guess… Norma

Response:

>My $2.00

IMO it’s worth more than that.

Response:

> I don’t think that Petie is condoning the shootings.  The fact is just being > brought out how much the outcasts are hurting.  You truly must have been the > popular, captain of the football team kind of guy with lots of friends. > Please don’t try and understand where we are coming from when you have no > idea!

You think you’re the first generation to have misfits?  Right.  There are many of us here who do empathize with being a school misfit…and more kids don’t ‘fit in’ in one way or another than those who do. The point still remains that the vast majority of ‘misfits’ don’t turn to mass murder.  Empathizing does not justify condoning their actions. Leah

Response:

It’s my understanding that this was less a situation of "outcasts" having taken enough … than possible connection to hate crimes. The suspects wore swastikas and their idol was Hitler.  They targeted minorities and athletes.  That’s what I read this morning in the news. Kandle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I don’t think that Petie is condoning the shootings.  The fact is just being >brought out how much the outcasts are hurting. You truly must have been the >popular, captain of the football team kind of guy with lots of friends. >Please don’t try and understand where we are coming from when you have no >idea! >  All over > > America in high schools and junior high schools, there are kids who are > > made fun of and made outcasts (like the Trench Coat Mafia Kids) by the >popular > > kids and "beautiful" kids of the schools. > > It is my firm standing that the Colorado shooters had taken enough crap and > > riducle from the popular kids in their school > Many of those "beautiful" kids are just as insecure and unhappy as the > ones who feel they are "outcasts." You sound like an angry, outcast kid > yourself.  Quit blaming the victims. Lots of kids are teased and > unhappy. They don’t go out and shoot people. You make it sound like > revenge was a perfectly normal and reasonable response. Sick!

Response:

I was sick and tired of seeing that subject line (mean snobby youths must take blame….) I’m sure everyone has read what the papers have to say about the shooting, but since several people are so sure that harassement to the point of breaking was the reason for the killing, I wanted to quote a couple of lines: *Emphasis is mine, not the papers* —— "(one student) said the two suspects were "social outcasts" who spent MUCH of their time playing "war games like ‘Battle Tech,’ but they would take it to the EXTREME." "One youth was known to keep on his black beret and dark sunglasses even inside friends’ homes," "Tuesday was Hitlers Birthday, an occasion for demonstrations, mock funerals and other macabre comemorations among Neo-Nazis and parts of the Gothic scene." —– To me, if the above is accurate, says that these kids were not pushed beyond any point where they couldn’t think of any other way to fight back.  If these reports are accurate, these boys were fascinated by violence and acted it out regularly.   The "social outcast" comment, was in my opinion,  *because*  of the war games and Gothic fascination. My $2.00 Kendra *Proud to be Outlandish!* http://www.geocities.com/heartland/lane/6516 — Visit my pages of SnowGlobes! http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lane/6516/snowglobes.htm

Response:

:I hate violence and am certainly not going to laud what the shooters did. They :are cold-blooded murderers. : :BUT, I am also not going to monsterize the shooters – who were children in :pain themselves. They had been picked on and rebuked by their mainstream :peers over the edge of sanity. I question whether other people’s ostracizing can push an otherwise normal child "over the edge of sanity".   I think they must have had severe mental problems, as well as being a product of the environment, both the one they had no choice to be in (family etc.) and the one they chose to immerse themselves in (Manson, satanism, dark foreboding themes, glorified violence, etc.).   I wonder what will be doen with the others in the group? Norma

Response:

>All over >America in high schools and junior high schools, there are kids who are >made fun of and made outcasts (like the Trench Coat Mafia Kids) by the >popular >kids and "beautiful" kids of the schools. >It is my firm standing that the Colorado shooters had taken enough crap and >riducle from the popular kids in their school that they felt backed into a >corner and wanted to stake out their own twisted claim for identity.

How stupid can you get?  Life is not all sweetness and light.   Things happen. We don’t all get what we want.  And when we don’t we have to GET OVER IT not kill an INNOCENT PERSON.  Or in this case SIXTEEN INNOCENT KIDS!!!!  >I am not >mad at the shooters, but rather feel sorrow for them.

I feel sorry that they had problems that went un-resolved but they had NO RIGHT TO KILL ANYONE.   > Apparently, they felt >hurt and rejected enough that this was the only solution they could come up >with.

And thats the problem with todays society.  ANd being sympathetic to what they did is like saying "you had no choice, didn’t you". >So, a word to the cheerleaders and jocks and popular ones of the high schools >and junior high schools of America. BE NICE TO EVERYONE, including the people >that don’t have it as good as you. If such civility could have been shown to >the Trench Coat Mafia, maybe this tragedy could have been averted

If the "Trench Coat Mafia" had any brains to begin with, they could have found better ways to deal with their problems. Do NOT excuse MURDER as a LAST RESORT.   Kendra *Proud to be Outlandish!* http://www.geocities.com/heartland/lane/6516 — Visit my pages of SnowGlobes! http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lane/6516/snowglobes.htm

Response:

Yet another classic example of what’s killing our society. Blame *everybody* but those responsible. "Gee, your honor, my father left me when I was a baby, so I couldn’t help my compulsion to rape and murder those seven women!"  Please! I was an outcast as well. I dealt with it, as did millions of other outcasts. Nothing, NOTHING is an excuse to do such a horrendous thing. Kathleen wisdom, writ: > All over > America in high schools and junior high schools, there are kids who are > made fun of and made outcasts (like the Trench Coat Mafia Kids) by the popular > kids and "beautiful" kids of the schools. > It is my firm standing that the Colorado shooters had taken enough crap and > riducle from the popular kids in their school >Many of those "beautiful" kids are just as insecure and unhappy as the >ones who feel they are "outcasts." You sound like an angry, outcast kid >yourself.  Quit blaming the victims. Lots of kids are teased and >unhappy. They don’t go out and shoot people. You make it sound like >revenge was a perfectly normal and reasonable response. Sick!

   "If sense were common, more people would have it." — Me ICQ# – 33613577 **Spam Trap** Accentuate the Positive to send e-mail.

Response:

Sapphire, I don’t think we are in overall disagreement here. I think that violence is wrong and am greatly distressed by the pain of the families who lost children in the shooting. However, I still feel sorry for the shooters because I think that they were given a push down a destructive path by the meanness of their classmates. And the shooters are dead too – they were driven to waste their lives on something destructive and pain-filled. Amen to your commentary on parents modeling behavior for children. It is my hope and prayer that all parents out there will raise their children NOT to make fun of others. Think of all the pain and lonliness that we could eliminate with outcast teens if their classmates were raised to be decent towards them and not treat them as outcasts. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Petie, >  I’m sorry but even as an outsider in High School, I cannot feel sorry for >these shooters.  I know exactly what they went through but that is no reason >to kill all of those people.  Kids should be nicer to each other, but where >do you think they get these messages from?  US!  I for one teach my son to be >compassionate to everyone but I know for damn sure not all parents do.  Even >if they try, their actions speak louder than words.  You cant tell your kids >one thing and then do another.  They see the way we act and mirror us >exactly. >     For example, I was watching a show on cable the other night about men in >prison.  I may have the numbers wrong but I think they said something like 85% >of children who have fathers in prison were in some sort of trouble with the >law or were in jail themselves.  The one man they interviewed has both of his >sons in the pen too.  They saw his way of life and emulated it. >    If we want our children to emulate us make sure it is in a positive light. >Live the life that you want your children to live, for they are sure to follow >in your footsteps. >Sapphire7 > KJ, > You are right on in your analysis of the situation in Colorado. All over > America in high schools and junior high schools, there are kids who are > made fun of and made outcasts (like the Trench Coat Mafia Kids) by the >popular > kids and "beautiful" kids of the schools. > It is my firm standing that the Colorado shooters had taken enough crap and > riducle from the popular kids in their school that they felt backed into a > corner and wanted to stake out their own twisted claim for identity. I am not > mad at the shooters, but rather feel sorrow for them. Apparently, they felt > hurt and rejected enough that this was the only solution they could come up > with. > So, a word to the cheerleaders and jocks and popular ones of the high schools > and junior high schools of America. BE NICE TO EVERYONE, including the people > that don’t have it as good as you. If such civility could have been shown to > the Trench Coat Mafia, maybe this tragedy could have been averted. > >Organization: InfiNet > >Anyone notice the trend in these things is that it is the students who > >are mercilessly picked on and cruelly ostracised who retailiate? > >Here are some quotes from Columbine students: > >"`They’re not well-liked in the school and no one treated them well.” > >"The two, who favored black, Gothic-like clothing, targeted minorities > >and student athletes, groups that the Trench Coat Mafia members may > >have felt excluded from or ridiculed by, students said" > >"He put a gun in my face and said, "I’m doing this because people made > >fun of me last year.’- ” > >Ben Grams, a junior, called the Trench Coat Mafia group, "A bunch of > >unwanted kids who were teased and pushed around a lot.” > >"It’s revenge time…for making us outcasts.’- ” > >I think the one positive thing that will come out of these horrible > >massacres is that school bullies and "in-crowd" cliques will start > >thinking twice before harassing and picking on others. > >Same thing in the workplace…employers will be much more careful to > >prevent favoritism, nepotism, cronyism and harassment from > >ocurring…allowing that that sort of behavior is getting rather > >dangerous.

Response:

First of all, Petie, I see your point, but since we can’t count on everyone else teaching their kids to be nice, we have to focus on teaching our kids on how to deal with it if they don’t "fit in" to a particular click. I feel sorry for the shooters because they were not taught by their parents how to deal with this kind of thing.  I was taught that if someone was talking about me, that means I am popular.  And if I’m walking down the street and someone is staring at me, I smile and wave at them.  They usually don’t stare after that.  There are plenty kids who don’t "fit in" but it doesn’t mean that they go shooting people. They get counseling, they find another click, they change schools, etc.  Just my 2 cents.  Leslie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Sapphire, > I don’t think we are in overall disagreement here. I think that violence is > wrong and am greatly distressed by the pain of the families who lost children > in the shooting. However, I still feel sorry for the shooters because I think > that they were given a push down a destructive path by the meanness of their > classmates. And the shooters are dead too – they were driven to waste their > lives on something destructive and pain-filled. > Amen to your commentary on parents modeling behavior for children. It is my > hope and prayer that all parents out there will raise their children NOT to > make fun of others. Think of all the pain and lonliness that we could > eliminate with outcast teens if their classmates were raised to be decent > towards them and not treat them as outcasts. >Petie, >  I’m sorry but even as an outsider in High School, I cannot feel sorry for >these shooters.  I know exactly what they went through but that is no reason >to kill all of those people.  Kids should be nicer to each other, but where >do you think they get these messages from?  US!  I for one teach my son to be >compassionate to everyone but I know for damn sure not all parents do.  Even >if they try, their actions speak louder than words.  You cant tell your kids >one thing and then do another.  They see the way we act and mirror us >exactly. >     For example, I was watching a show on cable the other night about men in >prison.  I may have the numbers wrong but I think they said something like 85% >of children who have fathers in prison were in some sort of trouble with the >law or were in jail themselves.  The one man they interviewed has both of his >sons in the pen too.  They saw his way of life and emulated it. >    If we want our children to emulate us make sure it is in a positive light. >Live the life that you want your children to live, for they are sure to follow >in your footsteps. >Sapphire7 >> KJ, >> You are right on in your analysis of the situation in Colorado. All over >> America in high schools and junior high schools, there are kids who are >> made fun of and made outcasts (like the Trench Coat Mafia Kids) by the >popular >> kids and "beautiful" kids of the schools. >> It is my firm standing that the Colorado shooters had taken enough crap and >> riducle from the popular kids in their school that they felt backed into a >> corner and wanted to stake out their own twisted claim for identity. I am not >> mad at the shooters, but rather feel sorrow for them. Apparently, they felt >> hurt and rejected enough that this was the only solution they could come up >> with. >> So, a word to the cheerleaders and jocks and popular ones of the high schools >> and junior high schools of America. BE NICE TO EVERYONE, including the people >> that don’t have it as good as you. If such civility could have been shown to >> the Trench Coat Mafia, maybe this tragedy could have been averted. >> >Organization: InfiNet >> >Anyone notice the trend in these things is that it is the students who >> >are mercilessly picked on and cruelly ostracised who retailiate? >> >Here are some quotes from Columbine students: >> >"`They’re not well-liked in the school and no one treated them well.” >> >"The two, who favored black, Gothic-like clothing, targeted minorities >> >and student athletes, groups that the Trench Coat Mafia members may >> >have felt excluded from or ridiculed by, students said" >> >"He put a gun in my face and said, "I’m doing this because people made >> >fun of me last year.’- ” >> >Ben Grams, a junior, called the Trench Coat Mafia group, "A bunch of >> >unwanted kids who were teased and pushed around a lot.” >> >"It’s revenge time…for making us outcasts.’- ” >> >I think the one positive thing that will come out of these horrible >> >massacres is that school bullies and "in-crowd" cliques will start >> >thinking twice before harassing and picking on others. >> >Same thing in the workplace…employers will be much more careful to >> >prevent favoritism, nepotism, cronyism and harassment from >> >ocurring…allowing that that sort of behavior is getting rather >> >dangerous.

Response:

:Yet another classic example of what’s killing our society. Blame :*everybody* but those responsible. "Gee, your honor, my father left me :when I was a baby, so I couldn’t help my compulsion to rape and murder :those seven women!"  Please! I was an outcast as well. I dealt with it, as :did millions of other outcasts. Nothing, NOTHING is an excuse to do such a :horrendous thing. : :Kathleen There are many more misfits in a school than there are populars.    These misfits often form their own groups.   They cope, as we all did.   You are so right: being a misfit is NO EXCUSE for mass murder. Norma

Response:

>Kendra, >I hate violence and am certainly not going to laud what the shooters did. >They >are cold-blooded murderers.

We agree there. >BUT, I am also not going to monsterize the shooters – who were children in >pain themselves. They had been picked on and rebuked by their mainstream >peers over the edge of sanity.

I’ve had the news on all day.  So far the alleged "teasing" and being "picked on" are not known for sure.   I’ve also heard that they were normal students with friends.   Regardless, they had no right to kill. >This statement of yours is beautiful. You continue to mock the Trench Coat >Mafia children.

I will LOATHE anyone who resorts to murder. I have also said I feel for them and whatever problems they had that went unsolved.  But millions of people have problems.  MOST handle them with common sense and maturity. >That’s great. >You know, they are/were CHILDREN and maybe they didn’t know HOW to go about >dealing with the problem.

Juniors in highschool are aware of right and wrong and are old enough to take responsibility for their actions.  I hope the one who didn’t kill himself is tried as an adult. >They had been shoved away enough by everyone that >maybe they thought they couldn’t take their problem anywhere else.

So that gives them the right to do what they did?    ’Fraid not.  And btw, that is not known for sure. >I hope that you are raising your children NOT to make fun of others, no >matter >how different.

Since you have no way of knowing, I’ll go ahead and tell you.   My kids are being raised color blind with the knowledge that everyone is different and people come in all shapes, sizes, colors and beliefs.  My kids will know that striving to be different from the "pack" is a good thing.  They will learn to be independent thinkers with common sense, compassion for anyone and everyone. They will be taught to respect authority at all times but voice their concerns about anything that doesn’t feel right to them.    Does that help you? Even if the kids were teased, that in NO excuse for killing others.   I still stand my this statement: >Do NOT excuse MURDER as a LAST RESORT.  

Kendra *Proud to be Outlandish!* http://www.geocities.com/heartland/lane/6516 — Visit my pages of SnowGlobes! http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lane/6516/snowglobes.htm

Response:

>How stupid can you get?  Life is not all sweetness and light.   Things happen. >We don’t all get what we want.  And when we don’t we have to GET OVER IT not >kill an INNOCENT PERSON.  Or in this case SIXTEEN INNOCENT KIDS!!!!

Kendra, I hate violence and am certainly not going to laud what the shooters did. They are cold-blooded murderers. BUT, I am also not going to monsterize the shooters – who were children in pain themselves. They had been picked on and rebuked by their mainstream peers over the edge of sanity. >I feel sorry that they had problems that went un-resolved but they had NO RIGHT >TO KILL ANYONE.   >And thats the problem with todays society.  ANd being sympathetic to what they >did is like saying "you had no choice, didn’t you". >If the "Trench Coat Mafia" had any brains to begin with, they could have found >better ways to deal with their problems.

This statement of yours is beautiful. You continue to mock the Trench Coat Mafia children. That’s great. You know, they are/were CHILDREN and maybe they didn’t know HOW to go about dealing with the problem. They had been shoved away enough by everyone that maybe they thought they couldn’t take their problem anywhere else. I hope that you are raising your children NOT to make fun of others, no matter how different. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Do NOT excuse MURDER as a LAST RESORT.   >Kendra >*Proud to be Outlandish!* >http://www.geocities.com/heartland/lane/6516

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 All over > America in high schools and junior high schools, there are kids who are > made fun of and made outcasts (like the Trench Coat Mafia Kids) by the popular > kids and "beautiful" kids of the schools. > It is my firm standing that the Colorado shooters had taken enough crap and > riducle from the popular kids in their school

Many of those "beautiful" kids are just as insecure and unhappy as the ones who feel they are "outcasts." You sound like an angry, outcast kid yourself.  Quit blaming the victims. Lots of kids are teased and unhappy. They don’t go out and shoot people. You make it sound like revenge was a perfectly normal and reasonable response. Sick!

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I don’t think that Petie is condoning the shootings.  The fact is just being brought out how much the outcasts are hurting.  You truly must have been the popular, captain of the football team kind of guy with lots of friends. Please don’t try and understand where we are coming from when you have no idea! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  All over > America in high schools and junior high schools, there are kids who are > made fun of and made outcasts (like the Trench Coat Mafia Kids) by the popular > kids and "beautiful" kids of the schools. > It is my firm standing that the Colorado shooters had taken enough crap and > riducle from the popular kids in their school > Many of those "beautiful" kids are just as insecure and unhappy as the > ones who feel they are "outcasts." You sound like an angry, outcast kid > yourself.  Quit blaming the victims. Lots of kids are teased and > unhappy. They don’t go out and shoot people. You make it sound like > revenge was a perfectly normal and reasonable response. Sick!

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Petie,   I’m sorry but even as an outsider in High School, I cannot feel sorry for these shooters.  I know exactly what they went through but that is no reason to kill all of those people.  Kids should be nicer to each other, but where do you think they get these messages from?  US!  I for one teach my son to be compassionate to everyone but I know for damn sure not all parents do.  Even if they try, their actions speak louder than words.  You cant tell your kids one thing and then do another.  They see the way we act and mirror us exactly.      For example, I was watching a show on cable the other night about men in prison.  I may have the numbers wrong but I think they said something like 85% of children who have fathers in prison were in some sort of trouble with the law or were in jail themselves.  The one man they interviewed has both of his sons in the pen too.  They saw his way of life and emulated it.     If we want our children to emulate us make sure it is in a positive light. Live the life that you want your children to live, for they are sure to follow in your footsteps. Sapphire7 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> KJ, > You are right on in your analysis of the situation in Colorado. All over > America in high schools and junior high schools, there are kids who are > made fun of and made outcasts (like the Trench Coat Mafia Kids) by the popular > kids and "beautiful" kids of the schools. > It is my firm standing that the Colorado shooters had taken enough crap and > riducle from the popular kids in their school that they felt backed into a > corner and wanted to stake out their own twisted claim for identity. I am not > mad at the shooters, but rather feel sorrow for them. Apparently, they felt > hurt and rejected enough that this was the only solution they could come up > with. > So, a word to the cheerleaders and jocks and popular ones of the high schools > and junior high schools of America. BE NICE TO EVERYONE, including the people > that don’t have it as good as you. If such civility could have been shown to > the Trench Coat Mafia, maybe this tragedy could have been averted. >Organization: InfiNet >Anyone notice the trend in these things is that it is the students who >are mercilessly picked on and cruelly ostracised who retailiate? >Here are some quotes from Columbine students: >"`They’re not well-liked in the school and no one treated them well.” >"The two, who favored black, Gothic-like clothing, targeted minorities >and student athletes, groups that the Trench Coat Mafia members may >have felt excluded from or ridiculed by, students said" >"He put a gun in my face and said, "I’m doing this because people made >fun of me last year.’- ” >Ben Grams, a junior, called the Trench Coat Mafia group, "A bunch of >unwanted kids who were teased and pushed around a lot.” >"It’s revenge time…for making us outcasts.’- ” >I think the one positive thing that will come out of these horrible >massacres is that school bullies and "in-crowd" cliques will start >thinking twice before harassing and picking on others. >Same thing in the workplace…employers will be much more careful to >prevent favoritism, nepotism, cronyism and harassment from >ocurring…allowing that that sort of behavior is getting rather >dangerous.

– Sapphire7 Serious error. All shortcuts have disappeared. Screen.  Mind.  Both are blank.

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KJ, You are right on in your analysis of the situation in Colorado. All over America in high schools and junior high schools, there are kids who are made fun of and made outcasts (like the Trench Coat Mafia Kids) by the popular kids and "beautiful" kids of the schools. It is my firm standing that the Colorado shooters had taken enough crap and riducle from the popular kids in their school that they felt backed into a corner and wanted to stake out their own twisted claim for identity. I am not mad at the shooters, but rather feel sorrow for them. Apparently, they felt hurt and rejected enough that this was the only solution they could come up with. So, a word to the cheerleaders and jocks and popular ones of the high schools and junior high schools of America. BE NICE TO EVERYONE, including the people that don’t have it as good as you. If such civility could have been shown to the Trench Coat Mafia, maybe this tragedy could have been averted. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Organization: InfiNet >Anyone notice the trend in these things is that it is the students who >are mercilessly picked on and cruelly ostracised who retailiate? >Here are some quotes from Columbine students: >"`They’re not well-liked in the school and no one treated them well.” >"The two, who favored black, Gothic-like clothing, targeted minorities >and student athletes, groups that the Trench Coat Mafia members may >have felt excluded from or ridiculed by, students said" >"He put a gun in my face and said, "I’m doing this because people made >fun of me last year.’- ” >Ben Grams, a junior, called the Trench Coat Mafia group, "A bunch of >unwanted kids who were teased and pushed around a lot.” >"It’s revenge time…for making us outcasts.’- ” >I think the one positive thing that will come out of these horrible >massacres is that school bullies and "in-crowd" cliques will start >thinking twice before harassing and picking on others.   >Same thing in the workplace…employers will be much more careful to >prevent favoritism, nepotism, cronyism and harassment from >ocurring…allowing that that sort of behavior is getting rather >dangerous.

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