Question:
>You guys slay me.
I would *never* slay a woman without trying to please her first. — Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.
Response:
> >You guys slay me. > I would *never* slay a woman without trying to please her first.
*try* …but not neccisarily succeed? (am I reading that right? : ) — Maureen Single Mom to Sarah 13, Michael 11, Matthew 7, Rebecca 5 and Adam 3 — Every morning I get miles of smiles — Full time student/Small Business owner http://www.pacificbytes.com/SS/
Response:
>> Glen (I must still be a kid) Appleby >Lol…well, at least you are honest about it. : )
Well, one thing that I try to be is honest. >I on the other hand…would >*never* look at a naked man. (ROFL!!!)
PUT THOSE PICTURES DOWN NOW AND BACK AWAY SLOWLY! — Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.
Response:
>> I would *never* slay a woman without trying to please her first. >*try* …but not neccisarily succeed? (am I reading that right? : )
Well, I have been known to *try* lots, but without input, it can be like flailing my arms in the wind, blindfolded. Now, if I were to get good directions and still try without success, *I* should be slain. Glen (often useless) Appleby — Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.
Response:
> >> Glen (I must still be a kid) Appleby >Lol…well, at least you are honest about it. : ) > Well, one thing that I try to be is honest. >I on the other hand…would >*never* look at a naked man. (ROFL!!!) > PUT THOSE PICTURES DOWN NOW AND BACK AWAY SLOWLY!
LOL! Ok…maybe I should amend that…I never look at them *now*..looking always led to touching…and touching..well…led to a really long .sig line. lol. — Maureen Single Mom to Sarah 13, Michael 11, Matthew 7, Rebecca 5 and Adam 3 — Every morning I get miles of smiles — Full time student/Small Business owner http://www.pacificbytes.com/SS/
Response:
Some filtering software actually works just fine. The approach it takes to email is to permit or prohibit downloads, so the typed note will get through, but not the attached file. At the very least, it’ll filter certain types of web sites and language. Here’s a link to a PC Magazine review of filtering software: http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/stories/reviews/0,6755,2130057,00.html It’s a 2 year old review, but at least you’ll get an idea of which packages are out there. And, PC Magazine’s quite thorough at testing software. Here’s another review, from PC World Magazine (about 1/2 way down the page): http://www.pcworld.com/workstyles/family_circle/articles/nov97/1197fc… As far as what someone said earlier in this thread about teens being able to hack their way past such software….not likely. Youngsters are just a representative cross section of the population. Most people know as much about circumventing security software as they do about designing airplane wings. Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi guys, was talking to the Dad of my son’s friend today. He is worried > about his son going into porn sites on the net. Thank goodness my son is > not into this yet, and yes my husband checks. Anyway, it happened last > year, and they had talks about it, and teenager 15 going on 16 promised he > would not go back, his dad checked yesterday and found that he had been > where he should not. I suggested he get one of the software packages that > stop that access, but he pointed out that his son also sends emails, and > pictures etc can be sent on email. He does not want to overreact, or > alienate his son, yet he see’s this as different to our era of ‘playboy’ > etc, because there are some really violent and very kinky things on the net. > Sooo people out there, have any of you got any suggestions, either as an > approach to his son, or a clever computer way of preventing further access. > Annemarie
Response:
> So a kid seeing nude pics of a woman is ok, but if he looks at nude pics of > a man, a ‘discussion’ is suddenly in order?
I had to think about this one for a little bit. I think any seeking out of any type of nudity I would have a discussion about, but if I found my son looking at male nude pictures..yes, I would want to have a discussion with him about that specifically…course if my daughter was looking at women I would want to also. I know it’s very common for girls to go through a same-sex phase in the teen years, but I’m not sure if boys experience the same thing..or if they experience it, but it’s kept hushed..either way..I’d want to make sure my kids in both instances were doing ok. In that I mean, not struggling with something larger than curiosity by themselves. — Maureen Single Mom to Sarah 13, Michael 11, Matthew 7, Rebecca 5 and Adam 3 — Every morning I get miles of smiles — Full time student/Small Business owner http://www.pacificbytes.com/SS/
Response:
>I think if you talk to soem adult men, most went through a period in their >lives where their acativites invlvoved picutres of naked women.
*Some* adult men? *A period*? Glen (I must still be a kid) Appleby — Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.
Response:
alt.parenting.solutions,"Annemarie" >Hi guys, was talking to the Dad of my son’s friend today. He is worried >about his son going into porn sites on the net. Thank goodness my son is >not into this yet, and yes my husband checks. Anyway, it happened last >year, and they had talks about it, and teenager 15 going on 16 promised he >would not go back, his dad checked yesterday and found that he had been >where he should not.
I’m curious why he should not go back? I know. Not your kid, but I’m kinda curious as to what some parents may still feel is wrong with erotic pictures. >I suggested he get one of the software packages that >stop that access, but he pointed out that his son also sends emails, and >pictures etc can be sent on email. He does not want to overreact, or >alienate his son, yet he see’s this as different to our era of ‘playboy’ >etc, because there are some really violent and very kinky things on the net.
Is that the type of stuff that the young man is interested in? >Sooo people out there, have any of you got any suggestions, either as an >approach to his son, or a clever computer way of preventing further access.
I’m not so concerned about helping the parent prevent their son from looking at erotica, but it seems that this would be one of those moments that would be amazingly useful for Dad and Mom to it down and listen to the young man to see where he is coming from, without judgement. (Actually, that shoulda been happening a long time ago and often) Where is trust? Of course, if they have their minds made up that looking at "dirty pictures" is bad, then I can’t offer much. — Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.
Response:
> >I think if you talk to soem adult men, most went through a period in their >lives where their acativites invlvoved picutres of naked women. > *Some* adult men? > *A period*? > Glen (I must still be a kid) Appleby
Lol…well, at least you are honest about it. : ) I on the other hand…would *never* look at a naked man. (ROFL!!!) — Maureen Single Mom to Sarah 13, Michael 11, Matthew 7, Rebecca 5 and Adam 3 — Every morning I get miles of smiles — Full time student/Small Business owner http://www.pacificbytes.com/SS/
Response:
Well, is this to say that the kid would be sending emails to his friends or anyone else that would in return send him emails with dirty pictures on them? Kids WILL be kids. Playboy is quite tame compared to the stuff that’s out there, BTW. Software packages do prevent sites from being accessed. They might even have some sort of email filters in them. Regular email programs, like Outlook Express, etc., also have filters. You can block addresses – kill lists (same process as with NG’s). I myself have NEVER received any unsolicited dirty pictures through my email, and I’ve been on the Net for years. I sometimes receive offers to check out XXX porn sites through my email (sometimes I do, sometimes I dont [more info than needed, I'm sure]); but if there is a NetNanny or SurfWatch, or something else, installed onto the computer, I doubt the son would get the email or even be able to visit the site while online. AJPDLA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi guys, was talking to the Dad of my son’s friend today. He is worried > about his son going into porn sites on the net. Thank goodness my son is > not into this yet, and yes my husband checks. Anyway, it happened last > year, and they had talks about it, and teenager 15 going on 16 promised he > would not go back, his dad checked yesterday and found that he had been > where he should not. I suggested he get one of the software packages that > stop that access, but he pointed out that his son also sends emails, and > pictures etc can be sent on email. He does not want to overreact, or > alienate his son, yet he see’s this as different to our era of ‘playboy’ > etc, because there are some really violent and very kinky things on the net. > Sooo people out there, have any of you got any suggestions, either as an > approach to his son, or a clever computer way of preventing further access. > Annemarie
Response:
> Any net nanny type program won’t really work with a > computer-savvy teen, imo, anyway. All of them can > be defeated by a determined and knowledgeable kid.
Too true. And I would say that if the kid wants to start defeating computer program securities, nurture that talent. Buy him a book on hacking, phreaking, et cetera. Later on in life he’ll thank you for it (as long as he does it for some good) while he’s being paid HUGE salaries for his talents. > Why not approach this differently. Open a discussion > with him about the sites he has visited and ask him why > he is fascinated by them. At this age, if his dad is open to > listening to him, perhaps, they can find some compromise > that will make the dad feel better about what his son is > doing. But remember that at 15 or 16, he will very soon > be adult and on his own. He has to develop the control > not to be interested in these sites for himself.
Yes, if the kid chooses to not be interested. Nothing’s wrong with being interested. > No parent > can make a kid stop wanting to see something if the > interest is there for a reason (and there is always a reason, > even if its simply high levels of testosterone)
Well, they can try. But, yes, they will fail. God, I’m not yet 30 but I’m going to sound old here. In the olden days, before computers, I and some buddies would just go to the liquor store and steal a Hustler or Oui or something else to check out the pictures. Now, it’s over the Internet kids go for this stuff. Frankly, I think the magazines are better. But, anyway. Parents who are really concerned about this need to, yes, have THE BIG TALK with their kids and not try to simply ignore or discount emotions that are running wild in their children. They could also just sit there (as I believe parents of ANY child should do) with their child(ren) and supervise their websurfing. Really, if they don’t do that and rely upon anything else for deterence, they as parents really don’t have much to complain about if something happens. MHO. AJPDLA
Response:
> So a kid seeing nude pics of a woman is ok, but if he looks at nude pics of > a man, a ‘discussion’ is suddenly in order? > The One
Yeah, I never did understand THAT distinction. AJPDLA
Response:
> Not because it not ok. Just that if a meal teen is exhibiting homosexual > behaviors ( which I have no problem with BTW) it opens up a whole slew of > social factors and questions and involvement that need to be discussed.
Obviously, you do have a problem with it. You couldn’t even type it out you were thinking and typing so fast. > Being a teenage male & being homosexual leads to questions/concerns of how > to act/react when your teen-age friends are discussing the physical > attributes of models and movie celebs, or just other girls in school.
Actually, from what I’ve seen in my life, the outright, obviously homosexual males I ever came into contact with had absolutely NO problems whatever dealing with "other girls in school." It was the Hetero males, including myself, who would lose all ability to even speak when a pretty girl came my way. > It > brings up concerns about what to do concerning homecoming and prom and other > dances. It brings up concerns about whether or not to tell other kids, and > how they will react. It brings up concerns about how other parents will > react concerning such things as locker rooms and showers after gym > class–bigoted unnecessary concerns, but things which are may happen.
For someone who stated at the outset that you really had no problem with it, you sure do list a lot of concerns. > All of these (and others I’m sure I haven’t thought of here) are things > which a teen shouldn’t have to face alone.
And they probably don’t. There are homosexual cliques in school just as there are other cliques. (snipped the rest) AJPDLA
Response:
> Lol…well, at least you are honest about it. : ) I on the other hand…would > *never* look at a naked man. (ROFL!!!) > — > Maureen
I’m sure you meant to say …for longer than a few seconds. LOL AJPDLA
Response:
>For someone who stated at the outset that you really had no problem with it, >you sure do list a lot of concerns.
Granted, but some of the concerns mentioned might have some validity under some circumtances. Mostly, though, I remember, specifically, that she said that they shouldn’t have to try to make sense of this, alone. GREAT thought! Of course, the same could be said about heterosexuality. I sure wish that this culture could be a bit more comfortable with issues involving sex. Glen (see, Steve? You don’t have to bite people’s heads off) Appleby — Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.
Response:
>> Lol…well, at least you are honest about it. : ) I on the other >hand…would > *never* look at a naked man. (ROFL!!!) >I’m sure you meant to say …for longer than a few seconds. LOL
Some deserve more time than others …. to take it all in. Glen "nanoseconds" Appleby — Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.
Response:
> >> Lol…well, at least you are honest about it. : ) I on the other >hand…would >> *never* look at a naked man. (ROFL!!!) >I’m sure you meant to say …for longer than a few seconds. LOL > Some deserve more time than others …. to take it all in. > Glen "nanoseconds" Appleby
You guys slay me. — Maureen Single Mom to Sarah 13, Michael 11, Matthew 7, Rebecca 5 and Adam 3 — Every morning I get miles of smiles — Full time student/Small Business owner http://www.pacificbytes.com/SS/
Response:
This is a healthy attitude, and may have no place in this discussion (based on the tone it seems to be taking). 
Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So a kid seeing nude pics of a woman is ok, but if he looks at nude pics of > a man, a ‘discussion’ is suddenly in order? > I had to think about this one for a little bit. I think any seeking out of any > type of nudity I would have a discussion about, but if I found my son looking at > male nude pictures..yes, I would want to have a discussion with him about that > specifically…course if my daughter was looking at women I would want to also. > I know it’s very common for girls to go through a same-sex phase in the teen > years, but I’m not sure if boys experience the same thing..or if they experience > it, but it’s kept hushed..either way..I’d want to make sure my kids in both > instances were doing ok. In that I mean, not struggling with something larger > than curiosity by themselves. > — > Maureen > Single Mom to Sarah 13, Michael 11, Matthew 7, Rebecca 5 and Adam 3 > — Every morning I get miles of smiles — > Full time student/Small Business owner > http://www.pacificbytes.com/SS/
Response:
Hi guys, was talking to the Dad of my son’s friend today. He is worried about his son going into porn sites on the net. Thank goodness my son is not into this yet, and yes my husband checks. Anyway, it happened last year, and they had talks about it, and teenager 15 going on 16 promised he would not go back, his dad checked yesterday and found that he had been where he should not. I suggested he get one of the software packages that stop that access, but he pointed out that his son also sends emails, and pictures etc can be sent on email. He does not want to overreact, or alienate his son, yet he see’s this as different to our era of ‘playboy’ etc, because there are some really violent and very kinky things on the net. Sooo people out there, have any of you got any suggestions, either as an approach to his son, or a clever computer way of preventing further access. Annemarie
Response:
Yes, there are very violent and kinky things on the net. But this is a young man soon to be adult and apparently he is interested in these websites for a reason. It could just be the *forbidden* nature of the material. When we make taboos, teens will attempt to break them just because they are taboos. Any net nanny type program won’t really work with a computer-savvy teen, imo, anyway. All of them can be defeated by a determined and knowledgeable kid. Why not approach this differently. Open a discussion with him about the sites he has visited and ask him why he is fascinated by them. At this age, if his dad is open to listening to him, perhaps, they can find some compromise that will make the dad feel better about what his son is doing. But remember that at 15 or 16, he will very soon be adult and on his own. He has to develop the control not to be interested in these sites for himself. No parent can make a kid stop wanting to see something if the interest is there for a reason (and there is always a reason, even if its simply high levels of testosterone) Dorothy >Hi guys, was talking to the Dad of my son’s friend today. He is worried >about his son going into porn sites on the net. Thank goodness my son is >not into this yet, and yes my husband checks. Anyway, it happened last >year, and they had talks about it, and teenager 15 going on 16 promised he >would not go back, his dad checked yesterday and found that he had been >where he should not. I suggested he get one of the software packages that >stop that access, but he pointed out that his son also sends emails, and >pictures etc can be sent on email. He does not want to overreact, or >alienate his son, yet he see’s this as different to our era of ‘playboy’ >etc, because there are some really violent and very kinky things on the net. >Sooo people out there, have any of you got any suggestions, either as an >approach to his son, or a clever computer way of preventing further access. >Annemarie
There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. source unknown
Response:
I had this converstation ot too long ago with a good firend who’s son was then 17. He would go in and checs the internet history perioidically to see what types of sites his son was viewing. He said that he had checked out the sites, and they were simply pics and a couple of tame videos. We both agreed that it was the modern version of sneaking a Playboy, and was a perfectly normal thing for a teen age boy to do. If the sites invovled children or violence (or naked men) , then I’d say a discussion may be in order. Maybe during a priavate moment Dad could mention to a young man how he had some of these feelings, maybe even did some of this type of stuff, and let him know that it’s ok to talk about it. I think if you talk to soem adult men, most went through a period in their lives where their acativites invlvoved picutres of naked women. While I understand your concern about some of the "racier" sites, Idont htink it’s fair to make your son promise to never do this type of thing.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yes, there are very violent and kinky things on the net. > But this is a young man soon to be adult and apparently he > is interested in these websites for a reason. It could just be > the *forbidden* nature of the material. When we make taboos, > teens will attempt to break them just because they are taboos. > Any net nanny type program won’t really work with a > computer-savvy teen, imo, anyway. All of them can > be defeated by a determined and knowledgeable kid. > Why not approach this differently. Open a discussion > with him about the sites he has visited and ask him why > he is fascinated by them. At this age, if his dad is open to > listening to him, perhaps, they can find some compromise > that will make the dad feel better about what his son is > doing. But remember that at 15 or 16, he will very soon > be adult and on his own. He has to develop the control > not to be interested in these sites for himself. No parent > can make a kid stop wanting to see something if the > interest is there for a reason (and there is always a reason, > even if its simply high levels of testosterone) > Dorothy >Hi guys, was talking to the Dad of my son’s friend today. He is worried >about his son going into porn sites on the net. Thank goodness my son is >not into this yet, and yes my husband checks. Anyway, it happened last >year, and they had talks about it, and teenager 15 going on 16 promised he >would not go back, his dad checked yesterday and found that he had been >where he should not. I suggested he get one of the software packages that >stop that access, but he pointed out that his son also sends emails, and >pictures etc can be sent on email. He does not want to overreact, or >alienate his son, yet he see’s this as different to our era of ‘playboy’ >etc, because there are some really violent and very kinky things on the net. >Sooo people out there, have any of you got any suggestions, either as an >approach to his son, or a clever computer way of preventing further access. >Annemarie > There is no sound, no cry in all the world > that can be heard unless someone listens .. > source unknown
Response:
So a kid seeing nude pics of a woman is ok, but if he looks at nude pics of a man, a ‘discussion’ is suddenly in order? The One
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I had this converstation ot too long ago with a good firend who’s son was > then 17. He would go in and checs the internet history perioidically to see > what types of sites his son was viewing. He said that he had checked out > the sites, and they were simply pics and a couple of tame videos. We both > agreed that it was the modern version of sneaking a Playboy, and was a > perfectly normal thing for a teen age boy to do. > If the sites invovled children or violence (or naked men) , then I’d say a > discussion may be in order. Maybe during a priavate moment Dad could > mention to a young man how he had some of these feelings, maybe even did > some of this type of stuff, and let him know that it’s ok to talk about it. > I think if you talk to soem adult men, most went through a period in their > lives where their acativites invlvoved picutres of naked women. While I > understand your concern about some of the "racier" sites, Idont htink it’s > fair to make your son promise to never do this type of thing. > Yes, there are very violent and kinky things on the net. > But this is a young man soon to be adult and apparently he > is interested in these websites for a reason. It could just be > the *forbidden* nature of the material. When we make taboos, > teens will attempt to break them just because they are taboos. > Any net nanny type program won’t really work with a > computer-savvy teen, imo, anyway. All of them can > be defeated by a determined and knowledgeable kid. > Why not approach this differently. Open a discussion > with him about the sites he has visited and ask him why > he is fascinated by them. At this age, if his dad is open to > listening to him, perhaps, they can find some compromise > that will make the dad feel better about what his son is > doing. But remember that at 15 or 16, he will very soon > be adult and on his own. He has to develop the control > not to be interested in these sites for himself. No parent > can make a kid stop wanting to see something if the > interest is there for a reason (and there is always a reason, > even if its simply high levels of testosterone) > Dorothy > >Hi guys, was talking to the Dad of my son’s friend today. He is worried > >about his son going into porn sites on the net. Thank goodness my son is > >not into this yet, and yes my husband checks. Anyway, it happened last > >year, and they had talks about it, and teenager 15 going on 16 promised > he > >would not go back, his dad checked yesterday and found that he had been > >where he should not. I suggested he get one of the software packages > that > >stop that access, but he pointed out that his son also sends emails, and > >pictures etc can be sent on email. He does not want to overreact, or > >alienate his son, yet he see’s this as different to our era of ‘playboy’ > >etc, because there are some really violent and very kinky things on the > net. > >Sooo people out there, have any of you got any suggestions, either as an > >approach to his son, or a clever computer way of preventing further > access. > >Annemarie > There is no sound, no cry in all the world > that can be heard unless someone listens .. > source unknown
Response:
> Hi guys, was talking to the Dad of my son’s friend today. He is worried > about his son going into porn sites on the net. Thank goodness my son is > not into this yet, and yes my husband checks.
Why not, instead of checking up on your son after the fact, sit and surf with him and teach him to do it responsibly? Why sneak around in the shadows and try to nail him after the act was committed? — Jack Tarkaan Kalamazoo, Michigan — NO UNSOLICITED E-MAIL AT THIS ADDRESS – Respect privacy – NO SPAM!!!!
Response:
Not because it not ok. Just that if a meal teen is exhibiting homosexual behaviors ( which I have no problem with BTW) it opens up a whole slew of social factors and questions and involvement that need to be discussed. Being a teenage male & being homosexual leads to questions/concerns of how to act/react when your teen-age friends are discussing the physical attributes of models and movie celebs, or just other girls in school. It brings up concerns about what to do concerning homecoming and prom and other dances. It brings up concerns about whether or not to tell other kids, and how they will react. It brings up concerns about how other parents will react concerning such things as locker rooms and showers after gym class–bigoted unnecessary concerns, but things which are may happen. All of these (and others I’m sure I haven’t thought of here) are things which a teen shouldn’t have to face alone. All of these may be things that Mom &/or Dad may have trouble with as well. They’re things which the teen should know that Mom & Dad are there for. That’s why it should be mentioned to the teen. That’s why a discussion may be in order. Not because he’s be doing anything wrong. Hope that clarifies a bit.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So a kid seeing nude pics of a woman is ok, but if he looks at nude pics of > a man, a ‘discussion’ is suddenly in order? > The One > I had this converstation ot too long ago with a good firend who’s son was > then 17. He would go in and checs the internet history perioidically to > see > what types of sites his son was viewing. He said that he had checked out > the sites, and they were simply pics and a couple of tame videos. We both > agreed that it was the modern version of sneaking a Playboy, and was a > perfectly normal thing for a teen age boy to do. > If the sites invovled children or violence (or naked men) , then I’d say a > discussion may be in order. Maybe during a priavate moment Dad could > mention to a young man how he had some of these feelings, maybe even did > some of this type of stuff, and let him know that it’s ok to talk about > it. > I think if you talk to soem adult men, most went through a period in their > lives where their acativites invlvoved picutres of naked women. While I > understand your concern about some of the "racier" sites, Idont htink it’s > fair to make your son promise to never do this type of thing. > > Yes, there are very violent and kinky things on the net. > > But this is a young man soon to be adult and apparently he > > is interested in these websites for a reason. It could just be > > the *forbidden* nature of the material. When we make taboos, > > teens will attempt to break them just because they are taboos. > > Any net nanny type program won’t really work with a > > computer-savvy teen, imo, anyway. All of them can > > be defeated by a determined and knowledgeable kid. > > Why not approach this differently. Open a discussion > > with him about the sites he has visited and ask him why > > he is fascinated by them. At this age, if his dad is open to > > listening to him, perhaps, they can find some compromise > > that will make the dad feel better about what his son is > > doing. But remember that at 15 or 16, he will very soon > > be adult and on his own. He has to develop the control > > not to be interested in these sites for himself. No parent > > can make a kid stop wanting to see something if the > > interest is there for a reason (and there is always a reason, > > even if its simply high levels of testosterone) > > Dorothy > > >Hi guys, was talking to the Dad of my son’s friend today. He is > worried > > >about his son going into porn sites on the net. Thank goodness my son > is > > >not into this yet, and yes my husband checks. Anyway, it happened > last > > >year, and they had talks about it, and teenager 15 going on 16 promised > he > > >would not go back, his dad checked yesterday and found that he had been > > >where he should not. I suggested he get one of the software packages > that > > >stop that access, but he pointed out that his son also sends emails, > and > > >pictures etc can be sent on email. He does not want to overreact, or > > >alienate his son, yet he see’s this as different to our era of > ‘playboy’ > > >etc, because there are some really violent and very kinky things on the > net. > > >Sooo people out there, have any of you got any suggestions, either as > an > > >approach to his son, or a clever computer way of preventing further > access. > > >Annemarie > > There is no sound, no cry in all the world > > that can be heard unless someone listens .. > > source unknown
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