Question:
Does anybody know of any good resources on teaching kiddies music and movement in a more interesting way than just singing? I found one so far that I like a lot. I know a bit about Orff and Kindermusik, and I think this lady has done a nice job of pulling valuable bits out of many disciplines. She’s at http://www.ur-net.com/music-little-folks. She says she does pre-natal through K classes in her home and figures out what works and what doesn’t from those experiences over the past number of years. The tapes are more or less for teachers & parents, but my daughter likes to watch them (over and over) along with me. Some of the little kids in her class are really fun to watch. So far, these tapes have been great. I’m looking for any other ideas as well. Chris Grant
Response:
>It was quite unusual for kids not to be trained at this age a generation >ago. Parents who just get on with it and teach kids to use the pot >when they are at the optimal trainable age – around 2-2.5 – don’t end up >with 5 year olds in diapers. There were always a few kids not trained >at 3 — today, probably the majority have been allowed to remain >infantalized past this stage. The mother should definately change schools >as this one obviously is not in synch with her parenting expectations.
I agree that the mother should change schools, however I don’t really agree with the rest of your post. In my experience, children vary quite a bit in when they are ready to use the toilet. Two of my four children started using the toilet when they were between two and two-and-a-half, one was fifteen months, and the fourth was past three-and-a-half. I remember watching that child, at age three, running around the backyard bare-naked, and when he started to pee, he was clearly surprised. He didn’t have any awareness that he was about to pee, and until he developed that, learning to use the toilet was just not possible. I talked to my mother-in-law about it, and she said that two of her four had been like my late-training son. (Yes, I think there is definitely a genetic component here.) Only in her generation, it was a cause for great concern and anxiety, and she spent a lot of time bugging them to use the toilet, punishing them for "accidents" etc. And she would lie to people, saying they were toilet-trained and dressing them in underpants (but having to bring six changes of clothes with them) because she was embarrassed. So, frankly, I’m glad we can be more accepting of the variations in readiness to use the toilet today. I do not think this means they are "infantalized!" Please! I also think that the use of disposable diapers is a factor here. (I used cloth for all of mine.) I think that children in disposables have a harder time identifying wetness, because the diaper keeps them dry all the time. This, I think, slows down the learning process (where the child identifies the "I have to go" feeling as preceding the feeling of wet pants). With so many kids now in disposables, I think it’s not surprising that many are using the toilet later. Teresa
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Karen, although you described switching schools as a last resort…I’d be > switching schools. It is not unusual for a child of 3 not to be toilet > trained…and many that ARE have frequent accidents at that age. My middle > child is almost 5 and he wore pull-ups to junior kindergarten all last year > and yes, sometimes staff had to help him and change him, and no one > complained, either at his kindergarten (part of the public school) or at the > daycare he went to the other half of the day. Health regulations indeed. Gee, > I wonder what they will do when she pees her pants and it ends up on the > floor and they have a lot bigger mess to clean up than just change a pull-up. > Frankly, I think their expectations are inappropriate and their attitude > sucks, so I’d be wondering what else is going on there. They don’t sound too > accomodating for normal developmental differences. > MY 2 cents!! > Mary G.
It was quite unusual for kids not to be trained at this age a generation ago. Parents who just get on with it and teach kids to use the pot when they are at the optimal trainable age – around 2-2.5 – don’t end up with 5 year olds in diapers. There were always a few kids not trained at 3 — today, probably the majority have been allowed to remain infantalized past this stage. The mother should definately change schools as this one obviously is not in synch with her parenting expectations.
Response:
>Karen, although you described switching schools as a last resort…I’d be >switching schools. It is not unusual for a child of 3 not to be toilet >trained…and many that ARE have frequent accidents at that age. My middle >child is almost 5 and he wore pull-ups to junior kindergarten all last year >and yes, sometimes staff had to help him and change him, and no one >complained, either at his kindergarten (part of the public school) or at the >daycare he went to the other half of the day. Health regulations indeed. Gee, >I wonder what they will do when she pees her pants and it ends up on the >floor and they have a lot bigger mess to clean up than just change a pull-up. >Frankly, I think their expectations are inappropriate and their attitude >sucks, so I’d be wondering what else is going on there. They don’t sound too >accomodating for normal developmental differences.
The preschools my son is in this year require the children to be potty trained, no pull ups. They clearly state this in their application literature. There are strict health regulations that state what facilities must have if they are going to be changing diapers (or pullups). The facility is probably not set up for that and doesn’t wish to be. There has not been one accident in either of my son’s classes yet, although the teachers have the parents leave extra clothes just in case. The parents are told to send their children in clothes that they can easily remove for pottying. Even with very low student to teacher ratios (4 teachers/parent teachers to 12 students), it is very difficult to properly watch all the children if you have to be helping in the bathroom all the time. (Having spent alot of time at his preschools, it seems like someone was always in the bathroom.) His old preschool that does not require potty training (3 – 4 yr old kids), this summer there were many accidents and I thought it to be unsanitary. (Its a very prestigious developmental based school.) Too often the (good) teachers didn’t notice the wet bottoms and the children didn’t speak up. At his new preschools, some of the playyards are far away from the classroom bathroom and one of the teachers takes groups of kids to the bathroom and of course will make potty trips if one child requires it before the usual time. I can see how it would be logistically impossible to have non potty trained children. I think that preschools should have preschool kid sized pottys. Its not a wise move not to — just from a liability standpoint — too much chance of a child hurting themselves. Suzanne (mom to John Henry, 24 weeker, now 3.5)
Response:
>Short of switching schools (which may >be a last resort), does anyone have any suggestions?
I think switching schools is a first resort.
Response:
Karen, although you described switching schools as a last resort…I’d be switching schools. It is not unusual for a child of 3 not to be toilet trained…and many that ARE have frequent accidents at that age. My middle child is almost 5 and he wore pull-ups to junior kindergarten all last year and yes, sometimes staff had to help him and change him, and no one complained, either at his kindergarten (part of the public school) or at the daycare he went to the other half of the day. Health regulations indeed. Gee, I wonder what they will do when she pees her pants and it ends up on the floor and they have a lot bigger mess to clean up than just change a pull-up. Frankly, I think their expectations are inappropriate and their attitude sucks, so I’d be wondering what else is going on there. They don’t sound too accomodating for normal developmental differences. MY 2 cents!! Mary G.
Response:
> Karen, although you described switching schools as a last resort…I’d be > switching schools. It is not unusual for a child of 3 not to be toilet > trained…and many that ARE have frequent accidents at that age. My middle > child is almost 5 and he wore pull-ups to junior kindergarten all last year > and yes, sometimes staff had to help him and change him, and no one > complained, either at his kindergarten (part of the public school) or at the > daycare he went to the other half of the day. Health regulations indeed. Gee, > I wonder what they will do when she pees her pants and it ends up on the > floor and they have a lot bigger mess to clean up than just change a
pull-up. That’s what I wondered. I don’t know how cleaning up an accident in underpants could be better than her wearing pull-ups. I’m sure she will be glad to know that she is not the first to have this problem. > Frankly, I think their expectations are inappropriate and their attitude > sucks, so I’d be wondering what else is going on there. They don’t sound too > accomodating for normal developmental differences. > MY 2 cents!! > Mary G.
I would agree with you. They also insist that the children wear shoes that they can remove and put on by themselves. They even had it in their handbook — the playground is gravel and they will _not_ help the children remove rocks from their shoes. At my son’s school, the only rule is that they have to remove the rocks before they go back inside, and the parent helper _will_ help. He is 4, and although he is getting better at dressing himself, he still needs help getting his shoes on the right feet, snapping his pants, etc. I guess the reason she has stuck it out there is that the preschool is at her church, and she would naturally prefer to take her there. Personally, I would never have used that school. They have 20 kids (3 year-olds) in a class with one teacher, one aide, and one parent. My son’s school has 12 kids in a class with one teacher and 2 parents. I’m going to encourage her to try to get her daughter into my son’s preschool, where they still have a few openings. It’s a little bit farther for her to drive, but I think everyone will be happier. Karen Karen
Response:
Sounds like a change of preschools is necessary since changing the child is not the problem. Ron http://www.parentingtoolbox.com/
Response:
I can understand that they can’t help the children (my sons co-op preschool had the same rule, probably the children from possible sexual abuse and wor- kers against false accusations of such). And I have heard of pre-schools who don’t allow pull-ups as a matter of policy, but I’m pretty sure there is *no* such health regulation. After all, babies in daycare wear diapers, and pull-ups are not really different, only easier for a child to put on. And if a 3 yr old wont use the full-size toilet surely they cold provide a potty for her ?? Maybe your friend could find a pre-school with a more reasonable policy for toilet training ? Petra in Tacoma, WA
Response:
As far as getting her on the big potty, I had the same problem with my daughter. Then we had friends with a 5-yr-old come and stay the weekend, and when she saw him on the big potty, she wanted no more to do with her little one! Is there a potty-trained friend that could spend a day or two at her house? Trina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Here are the obstacles: 1) She can’t (and won’t) get onto a big toilet >all by herself. >
Response:
I’m posting for a friend of mine who is at a loss for what to do next. Her daughter turned 3 in April and started preschool in September. She was not fully potty trained, though they have been working on it for some time, so my friend sent her to school in Pull-ups. The preschool has a policy that the children must be able to remove their clothes and replace them by themselves and get on and off the toilet (full-sized) by themselves. (No exceptions! They will not help.) She uses her little potty at home with mixed success, but will not sit on the full-sized toilet. She has very infrequent bowel movements and does not care if she is wet, so her mom hoped that she would be able to get away with the pull-ups until daughter is trained better. Anyway, the preschool teacher noticed the pull-ups Thursday and told the girl’s father that she couldn’t wear them because of "health regulations". (?) So, mom is trying to get her into underwear by next class (Tuesday). Here are the obstacles: 1) She can’t (and won’t) get onto a big toilet all by herself. 2) She doesn’t care if she wets herself. As far as the first problem, I have no idea what to tell her. At my son’s preschool, they have child-sized toilets _and_ they are willing to help kids that need it (with wiping, snaps, etc.). As far as the training problem, if the child is thinking about it, she will go to the potty every 15 minutes (and urinate at least a tiny bit each time). But, if she is playing and thinking about other things, she just goes where she is. Her mom is trying to get her used to underwear, and took her out in them for a quick trip to the drug store. She wet herself thoroughly and didn’t seem to care, even throwing a fit when her mom tried to change her. She did the same thing on the rug at home, wetting herself and the rug, and just sat in it and kept playing. The parents and the pediatrician don’t really care that she is not trained yet, they are willing to wait until she is ready, it is just a matter of her being able to attend preschool. Short of switching schools (which may be a last resort), does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks. Karen
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