Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > For instance, my father called me on the phone and told me that they > > were not going to allow my sister to get a learner’s permit because she > > was eating in her room (not allowed, so she was hiding the evidence) > > and not keeping her room clean. Supposedly this proves that she can not > > be "trusted". Personally, I think that they are just freaking out > > because she is moving out of their control. > They SOUND like a couple of abusive fucking NUTS!!! That sort of shit is > mind-control, not parenting! I wish she’d just leave home, she’d be > better off on the street! > Well Steve they could always "dump the plates in her bed" the advice you gave > a while back….. > Maybe that is less abusive.
Finding your dishes in your bed in a household of equals is par for the course if you don’t wash your dishes. But in a household of equals nobody would try to force you not to eat in your own fucking ROOM or try to punish you for eating there!!! That’s a common human right, to eat where it’s comfortable. They’re trying to enforce their weirdness and their neurotic rigidity upon her, and THAT’S abusive!! Example: Wrapping your livingroom furniture in thick transparent plastic and telling everyone in the family not to go in there is not very abusive, it’s just stupid and neurotic! But wrapping someone ELSE’S ROOM’S furniture in plastic and forbidding THEM to eat on their own furniture *IS* abusive!!! Steve
Response:
> Steve, > So did your kids go to public schools or did you home school them? I > take it they are grown up now. What type of work do they do and how > do they get along with bosses and co-workers? > Poopie Pans
They went to public school till they could drop out and then took GEDs and went to community college. She’s a programmer in a start-up and he’s a computer artist for websites and musician who has been the manager 4 years. They both seem to be very social and get along with people very well. I did teach them both algebra and how to read before they even started kindergarten. They wanted to do what we did! Steve
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > You tell me and I’ll tell you specifics if you like. I’ve already done > > this and have two kids in their mid 20’s alive and sound raised that > > way. > Steve- > As an introduction of sorts: > I started reading this newsgroup because I am thinking about how I > would like to raise my children (because I know I don’t want to raise > them the way I was) and am looking for suggestions on how to help my > younger sister and stepbrothers. > I’ve been following the post on Satanic Bible reading teen because my > sister (15) is Wiccan and has a lot of problems with my bible-thumping, > whacko stepmother. She also has more general problems with my parents. > For instance, my father called me on the phone and told me that they > were not going to allow my sister to get a learner’s permit because she > was eating in her room (not allowed, so she was hiding the evidence) > and not keeping her room clean. Supposedly this proves that she can not > be "trusted". Personally, I think that they are just freaking out > because she is moving out of their control. > They SOUND like a couple of abusive fucking NUTS!!! That sort of shit is > mind-control, not parenting! I wish she’d just leave home, she’d be > better off on the street!
Well Steve they could always "dump the plates in her bed" the advice you gave a while back….. Maybe that is less abusive. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyway, > Although I don’t totally agree with your posts, I don’t totally > disagree with them either. > Some questions: > How do you deal with an infant or young child who is attempting to do > something dangerous? That is to say, how do you teach your children > that there are realities that they must follow (ie. avoiding dangerous > situations that would cause bodily harm)? Obviously you could redirect > an infant or try to educate a young child. But what if they persist? > Were you ever forced to exert some authority? > If an adult is about to step into traffic, and you pull them back, have > you violated them?? No. So do THAT! Do you get nasty to the adult for > not looking where they were going and give them a time out?? If you try > they’ll finally punch your fucking lights out!! All good acts revolve > around treating them as you’d wish to be treated if you were them!! Now > where have I heard THAT before, and who now pays NO attention to it > regarding their KIDS!! Fucking shit-assed amazing, id’n't it!!?? > Did your children have problems dealing with the authority in schools > (they certainly don’t all believe in being friends with children), > etc.? How did you explain to your children the difference in attitude? > To our kids the schools were described as being run by sexually bigoted > insane people who can hurt your life bad if you don’t avoid > them as much as possible by any means necessary. Also don’t believe a > word they say that doesn’t make sense. Smile a lot and wait to be pissed > off when you get home. They are like a natural catastrophe, you can’t > argue with them, but you do NOT have to believe they are right or good! > In the future when we learn to control such vicious assholes they will > be eliminated from any decent future society! > How did you explain the contradictions between your views/practices and > the majority of the US people? > I probably have some other questions as well. > Jane > We told them, our first at about age 4 and our second, all of us sort of > told her a few times, that the rest of the world was crazy because they > were antisexually abused by their parents and society. We proved this by > pointing out that these people don’t take their clothes off or fuck in > front of their kids, and once we proved it to them (they didn’t believe > it!) this was enough to convince our kids that other people, other than > a careful circle of our friends, were totally and irredemably insane and > not to be trusted!! This made the rest of society the equivalent of a > vicious dog, two-headed baby or other very strange phenomenon beyond > reality in our children’s minds. They whispered in our ear to ask us who > was safe for a couple years, and then they figured it all out. > Steve
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > You tell me and I’ll tell you specifics if you like. I’ve already done > > this and have two kids in their mid 20’s alive and sound raised that > > way. > Steve- > As an introduction of sorts: > I started reading this newsgroup because I am thinking about how I > would like to raise my children (because I know I don’t want to raise > them the way I was) and am looking for suggestions on how to help my > younger sister and stepbrothers. > I’ve been following the post on Satanic Bible reading teen because my > sister (15) is Wiccan and has a lot of problems with my bible-thumping, > whacko stepmother. She also has more general problems with my parents. > For instance, my father called me on the phone and told me that they > were not going to allow my sister to get a learner’s permit because she > was eating in her room (not allowed, so she was hiding the evidence) > and not keeping her room clean. Supposedly this proves that she can not > be "trusted". Personally, I think that they are just freaking out > because she is moving out of their control. >They SOUND like a couple of abusive fucking NUTS!!! That sort of shit is >mind-control, not parenting! I wish she’d just leave home, she’d be >better off on the street! > Anyway, > Although I don’t totally agree with your posts, I don’t totally > disagree with them either. > Some questions: > How do you deal with an infant or young child who is attempting to do > something dangerous? That is to say, how do you teach your children > that there are realities that they must follow (ie. avoiding dangerous > situations that would cause bodily harm)? Obviously you could redirect > an infant or try to educate a young child. But what if they persist? > Were you ever forced to exert some authority? >If an adult is about to step into traffic, and you pull them back, have >you violated them?? No. So do THAT! Do you get nasty to the adult for >not looking where they were going and give them a time out?? If you try >they’ll finally punch your fucking lights out!! All good acts revolve >around treating them as you’d wish to be treated if you were them!! Now >where have I heard THAT before, and who now pays NO attention to it >regarding their KIDS!! Fucking shit-assed amazing, id’n't it!!?? > Did your children have problems dealing with the authority in schools > (they certainly don’t all believe in being friends with children), > etc.? How did you explain to your children the difference in attitude? >To our kids the schools were described as being run by sexually bigoted >insane people who can hurt your life bad if you don’t avoid >them as much as possible by any means necessary. Also don’t believe a >word they say that doesn’t make sense. Smile a lot and wait to be pissed >off when you get home. They are like a natural catastrophe, you can’t >argue with them, but you do NOT have to believe they are right or good! >In the future when we learn to control such vicious assholes they will >be eliminated from any decent future society! > How did you explain the contradictions between your views/practices and > the majority of the US people? > I probably have some other questions as well. > Jane >We told them, our first at about age 4 and our second, all of us sort of >told her a few times, that the rest of the world was crazy because they >were antisexually abused by their parents and society. We proved this by >pointing out that these people don’t take their clothes off or fuck in >front of their kids, and once we proved it to them (they didn’t believe >it!) this was enough to convince our kids that other people, other than >a careful circle of our friends, were totally and irredemably insane and >not to be trusted!! This made the rest of society the equivalent of a >vicious dog, two-headed baby or other very strange phenomenon beyond >reality in our children’s minds. They whispered in our ear to ask us who >was safe for a couple years, and then they figured it all out. >Steve
Steve, So did your kids go to public schools or did you home school them? I take it they are grown up now. What type of work do they do and how do they get along with bosses and co-workers? Poopie Pans
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> They SOUND like a couple of abusive fucking NUTS!!! That sort of shit >is mind-control, not parenting! I wish she’d just leave home, she’d be >better off on the street!< >Oh, but you haven’t heard the whole story yet! >Really, >I never lived with them. I lived with my mother who was mostly >inattentive. She died after I left home and my sister was sent to live >with my father and stepmother. I’ve told my sister that she is welcome >to move in with me, but she wants to stay with my parents so that she >is close to her friends. She might change her mind if they continue on >this path though. >Right now, I simply criticize a lot of the things that my parents do >and tell my brothers and sister that they are full of crap. This helps >my sister but doesn’t really affect my brothers (by the way, they are >12 and 9) since this is what they have lived with all their lives and >their father makes mine look like a saint in comparison. > If an adult is about to step into traffic, and you pull them back, >have you violated them?? No. So do THAT! Do you get nasty to the adult >for not looking where they were going and give them a time out?? If you >try they’ll finally punch your fucking lights out!! All good acts >revolve around treating them as you’d wish to be treated if you were >them!! Now where have I heard THAT before, and who now pays NO >attention to it regarding their KIDS!! Fucking shit-assed amazing, >id’n't it!!?? < >All right, I think I get the point. The way you would treat an adult in >such a situation is different than how most would treat a child. When >you pull an adult back, you do it out of concern. You may tell them >something like, "You should be more careful", but the tone would be an >honest one. One of concern or perhaps disbelief at their lack of >attention. When most people pull a child back they then start to go >after the kid, as if they wish to leave a lasting impression and they >react at least partially in anger. You’d probably want to provide more >of an explanation to a child if they were young, perhaps, but it should >be with the same tone you would use with an adult (ie. what if that >adult was obviously mentally handicapped-you might tell them that they >need to look both ways, etc. but you wouldn’t whack them either). In >other words, when one deals with an adult in this situation you are >usually dealing with the assumption that the adult is simply careless. >However, it could be that a child is being careless or that they just >don’t know. Because these situations are somewhat differnet, I’d say >that my response would be different but not in tone or treatment. >The way you describe dealing with the outside sounds like what I am >doing in respect to my parents. >Tell me more since I find that I am agreeing with you more. Like I said >before, I know that I don’t want to parent like mine did. My parents >were unfair, capricious and prone to spanking, yelling, etc. In return, >I made their lives rather unpleasant at times. When they would come >home after a bad day and immediately start yelling as they walked in >the door(can’t do this to adults so take it out on the kiddies), I’d >turn around and egg them on then or later to make them feel the same >way. After a spanking (after the initial I hate them and want to hit >them too), I’d plot how to get revenge. My favorite method, discovered >when I was around 10, was to become an avid reader of Parents and >Psychology Today. Parents really love being told that they’ve got it >all wrong and that they are morons by their children! I spent a good >chunk of my childhood getting back at them. >Over all, I’d say that my parents’ methods created children who were >deceitful, lying, angry, vengeful, hateful, who had no real respect for >their parents (even if they displayed fake respect) and who wouldn’t >tell their parents a thing. I’d never go to my parents with a problem- >why would I want to? >Obviously, I don’t want this for my children. >Jane
Jane, so do you have a normal life? You are an axe murdered or anything like that because of how you were raised are you? Poopie Pants
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> They SOUND like a couple of abusive fucking NUTS!!! That sort of > > shit > is mind-control, not parenting! I wish she’d just leave home, > she’d be > better off on the street! > Right now, I simply criticize a lot of the things that my parents do > and tell my brothers and sister that they are full of crap. This helps > my sister but doesn’t really affect my brothers (by the way, they are > 12 and 9) since this is what they have lived with all their lives and > their father makes mine look like a saint in comparison. > If an adult is about to step into traffic, and you pull them back, > have you violated them?? No. So do THAT! Do you get nasty to the adult > for not looking where they were going and give them a time out?? If you > try they’ll finally punch your fucking lights out!! All good acts > revolve around treating them as you’d wish to be treated if you were > them!! Now where have I heard THAT before, and who now pays NO > attention to it regarding their KIDS!! Fucking shit-assed amazing, > id’n't it!!?? < > All right, I think I get the point. The way you would treat an adult in > such a situation is different than how most would treat a child. When > you pull an adult back, you do it out of concern. You may tell them > something like, "You should be more careful", but the tone would be an > honest one. One of concern or perhaps disbelief at their lack of > attention. When most people pull a child back they then start to go > after the kid, as if they wish to leave a lasting impression and they > react at least partially in anger. You’d probably want to provide more > of an explanation to a child if they were young, perhaps, but it should > be with the same tone you would use with an adult (ie. what if that > adult was obviously mentally handicapped-you might tell them that they > need to look both ways, etc. but you wouldn’t whack them either). In > other words, when one deals with an adult in this situation you are > usually dealing with the assumption that the adult is simply careless. > However, it could be that a child is being careless or that they just > don’t know. Because these situations are somewhat differnet, I’d say > that my response would be different but not in tone or treatment. > The way you describe dealing with the outside sounds like what I am > doing in respect to my parents.
If a child is mentally able to understand how to avoid getting yelled at or hit for endangering himself so that such sanction would do any supposed good, then he’s already able to decide for himself what is dangerous and what isn’t, so that if he is able then he is already able to understand the favor of being pulled back from getting hurt, and if not, there is no point to burdening him about it with either punishment OR any disparagement about it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tell me more since I find that I am agreeing with you more. Like I said > before, I know that I don’t want to parent like mine did. My parents > were unfair, capricious and prone to spanking, yelling, etc. In return, > I made their lives rather unpleasant at times. When they would come > home after a bad day and immediately start yelling as they walked in > the door(can’t do this to adults so take it out on the kiddies), I’d > turn around and egg them on then or later to make them feel the same > way. After a spanking (after the initial I hate them and want to hit > them too), I’d plot how to get revenge. My favorite method, discovered > when I was around 10, was to become an avid reader of Parents and > Psychology Today. Parents really love being told that they’ve got it > all wrong and that they are morons by their children! I spent a good > chunk of my childhood getting back at them. > Over all, I’d say that my parents’ methods created children who were > deceitful, lying, angry, vengeful, hateful, who had no real respect for > their parents (even if they displayed fake respect) and who wouldn’t > tell their parents a thing. I’d never go to my parents with a problem- > why would I want to? > Obviously, I don’t want this for my children. > Jane
There you go. Treat your children like your best friends, if you have any. If you don’t then be EVEN *MORE* careful!! Treat your children like disadvantaged equals who are unfamiliar with this society. Steve
Response:
> Going to butt in here.. > Your story about your own parents sounds terrible. I like that > you are trying to support your siblings and that you are looking > for ways to break the cycle… It is not easy.. The best parents > will hear their own parents words come out of their mouths > once in a while even when these words are not helpful ones. > One thing to keep in mind, no parent will be perfect, so accept > that an apologize when you do make a mistake.. Kids are very > forgiving of parent’s mistakes as long as they are not so common > as to make the child believe that the parent intended them.
Yes, apologizing is very important. I make it a point to apologize when I know that I am being unreasonable or am wrong. Many times it is difficult to avoid falling into the same behavior you hated as a child and know that is wrong. For instance, my father used to yell at me when I smacked while chewing food. Now I have a hard time not reacting similarly, even though I know that it is ridiculous and irrational. I tell my siblings that when I get upset at this that I am being unreasonable and irrational and why. > On much of what Steve says about parenting – especially on > respecting the child and treating his feelings with respect, I > agree..
I agree with most of that as well and some other things too. > And prevention of problems is half the battle in terms of > discipline. Treating the child’s teelings with respect, and > showing him postive ways to deal with the world are what is > important.. > So reposting these tips again on positive parenting. > Steve may not agree with all of them, but perhaps they can > guide you in terms of more specific information.. > Positive Parenting
I agree with most of what you posted…it’s very similar to what I read as a child. I probably fall somewhere between this and Steve’s views. When I was 11 or 12, I found a copy of Summerhill and was quite impressed by it and have also read some other books that I’ve agreed with. I’ve haven’t read the books you suggested, but will look for them in the library. Jane Before you buy.
Response:
Going to butt in here.. Your story about your own parents sounds terrible. I like that you are trying to support your siblings and that you are looking for ways to break the cycle… It is not easy.. The best parents will hear their own parents words come out of their mouths once in a while even when these words are not helpful ones. One thing to keep in mind, no parent will be perfect, so accept that an apologize when you do make a mistake.. Kids are very forgiving of parent’s mistakes as long as they are not so common as to make the child believe that the parent intended them. On much of what Steve says about parenting – especially on respecting the child and treating his feelings with respect, I agree.. And prevention of problems is half the battle in terms of discipline. Treating the child’s teelings with respect, and showing him postive ways to deal with the world are what is important.. So reposting these tips again on positive parenting. Steve may not agree with all of them, but perhaps they can guide you in terms of more specific information.. Positive Parenting The idea of these methods is to be proactive and not reactive. To empower the child rather than to control his behavior. To see the child’s individual needs and abilities rather than to use some general techniques. To adapt these things to particular situations using the basic principle of reapect for the child’s feelings and human rights. Part of this is simply a change in the way you speak to your child and in the attitude that you show toward him when you *really* look at him and listen to him carefully. Mostly, this boils down to LISTEN to your child and RESPECT his unique needs and feelings. First, model the behavior you want your child to emulate. Children learn what they live. Teach by example, not words. Second, always try to look for the underlying cause of the behavior and address that so that the need is actually met in acceptable ways. Assume your child is *good* even when his behavior doesn’t meet your standards. Third, state your rules and requests in positive ways, not negative ones – Please walk is always more effective than don’t run. Fourth, explain on the child’s level exactly what you want done again in positive terms – state what he can do, not what he can’t do. Get down on the child’s level and look at him when you explain. Fifth, redirect a child who is doing something that you dislike to something he *can* do now instead of what he is doing. Give the child choices between many things that are acceptable to you and he won’t have to find something that is unacceptable so that he can have control. Whenever possible, let the child decide on what he should do even if the choice he makes is different from what you think is the *best* one. Children learn from making choices Sixth, give your child warnings of transitions so that they become easier to manage. Children need time to *finish* what they are doing. Persistence in doing a task is a virtue and should be encouraged. So try to allow children to finish what they start even when it is *just* a game. Seventh, allow for time-outs when your emotions or the child’s are out of control. Time-outs can be used non-punitively to allow both the adult and child to regain control of their emotions. Let the child control the amount of time he stays in the time-out. Give him the control and he may put himself in time-out when he feels he needs it without your having to initiate this at all. Use it yourself too if your own emotions fly out of control. It’s a great way to calm *yourself* down. Eighth, say what you mean and mean what you say. Don’t give a lot of warnings, give one and then act. Ninth, plan for situations before they arise. Try to have some idea of what you will do so that you can stay calm and not react in anger. When you do need to change the child’s behavior do so calmly and quickly. Pick up a young child and remove him from the situation or redirect him to some positive activity without yelling and without anger. Talk in a reasonable and normal tone of voice. convey the message of love with your voice and your body. Tenth, as your child grows, try to involve him in planning the rules that are necessary. Let him make some of the decisions within reasonable guidelines so that he begins to trust his own feelings about what is right and what is wrong. You can use role-playing and dramatic play to help your child figure out what she can do when situations come up that are difficult for her. Always involve her in solving the problem. Let her brainstorm different things she can do and then let her choose from the acceptable alternatives she comes up with. Try the following URLs for effective ways to discipline children without spanking or yelling. http://home1.gte.net/clarkjs/discipln.htm http://www.loveandlogic.com/Pages/0200articles.html Search for discipline on this site or read some of the articles related to spanking and parenting. There is a study of the long term results of responsive parenting also which supports some of the results that I’ve seen with children. http://naturalchild.com/home/ And try the discipline links on the web site below for a great list of books that you can use to help you chose methods that work for you http://www.ll.net/morpheus/family/naturalmothering.html A good resource book is How To Talk So Kids Will Listen And Listen So Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber.and Elaine Mazlish. Dorothy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> They SOUND like a couple of abusive fucking NUTS!!! That sort of shit >is mind-control, not parenting! I wish she’d just leave home, she’d be >better off on the street!< >Oh, but you haven’t heard the whole story yet! >Really, >I never lived with them. I lived with my mother who was mostly >inattentive. She died after I left home and my sister was sent to live >with my father and stepmother. I’ve told my sister that she is welcome >to move in with me, but she wants to stay with my parents so that she >is close to her friends. She might change her mind if they continue on >this path though. >Right now, I simply criticize a lot of the things that my parents do >and tell my brothers and sister that they are full of crap. This helps >my sister but doesn’t really affect my brothers (by the way, they are >12 and 9) since this is what they have lived with all their lives and >their father makes mine look like a saint in comparison. > If an adult is about to step into traffic, and you pull them back, >have you violated them?? No. So do THAT! Do you get nasty to the adult >for not looking where they were going and give them a time out?? If you >try they’ll finally punch your fucking lights out!! All good acts >revolve around treating them as you’d wish to be treated if you were >them!! Now where have I heard THAT before, and who now pays NO >attention to it regarding their KIDS!! Fucking shit-assed amazing, >id’n't it!!?? < >All right, I think I get the point. The way you would treat an adult in >such a situation is different than how most would treat a child. When >you pull an adult back, you do it out of concern. You may tell them >something like, "You should be more careful", but the tone would be an >honest one. One of concern or perhaps disbelief at their lack of >attention. When most people pull a child back they then start to go >after the kid, as if they wish to leave a lasting impression and they >react at least partially in anger. You’d probably want to provide more >of an explanation to a child if they were young, perhaps, but it should >be with the same tone you would use with an adult (ie. what if that >adult was obviously mentally handicapped-you might tell them that they >need to look both ways, etc. but you wouldn’t whack them either). In >other words, when one deals with an adult in this situation you are >usually dealing with the assumption that the adult is simply careless. >However, it could be that a child is being careless or that they just >don’t know. Because these situations are somewhat differnet, I’d say >that my response would be different but not in tone or treatment. >The way you describe dealing with the outside sounds like what I am >doing in respect to my parents. >Tell me more since I find that I am agreeing with you more. Like I said >before, I know that I don’t want to parent like mine did. My parents >were unfair, capricious and prone to spanking, yelling, etc. In return, >I made their lives rather unpleasant at times. When they would come >home after a bad day and immediately start yelling as they walked in >the door(can’t do this to adults so take it out on the kiddies), I’d >turn around and egg them on then or later to make them feel the same >way. After a spanking (after the initial I hate them and want to hit >them too), I’d plot how to get revenge. My favorite method, discovered >when I was around 10, was to become an avid reader of Parents and >Psychology Today. Parents really love being told that they’ve got it >all wrong and that they are morons by their children! I spent a good >chunk of my childhood getting back at them. >Over all, I’d say that my parents’ methods created children who were >deceitful, lying, angry, vengeful, hateful, who had no real respect for >their parents (even if they displayed fake respect) and who wouldn’t >tell their parents a thing. I’d never go to my parents with a problem- >why would I want to? >Obviously, I don’t want this for my children. >Jane >Before you buy.
Response:
> > You tell me and I’ll tell you specifics if you like. I’ve already done > this and have two kids in their mid 20’s alive and sound raised that > way. > Steve > Yeah. Didn’t we see them on America’s Most Wanted, trying to bribe the > FBI with sex?
No, though they do know to try that in a pinch. Steve
Response:
> They SOUND like a couple of abusive fucking NUTS!!! That sort of shit
is mind-control, not parenting! I wish she’d just leave home, she’d be better off on the street!< Oh, but you haven’t heard the whole story yet! Really, I never lived with them. I lived with my mother who was mostly inattentive. She died after I left home and my sister was sent to live with my father and stepmother. I’ve told my sister that she is welcome to move in with me, but she wants to stay with my parents so that she is close to her friends. She might change her mind if they continue on this path though. Right now, I simply criticize a lot of the things that my parents do and tell my brothers and sister that they are full of crap. This helps my sister but doesn’t really affect my brothers (by the way, they are 12 and 9) since this is what they have lived with all their lives and their father makes mine look like a saint in comparison. > If an adult is about to step into traffic, and you pull them back,
have you violated them?? No. So do THAT! Do you get nasty to the adult for not looking where they were going and give them a time out?? If you try they’ll finally punch your fucking lights out!! All good acts revolve around treating them as you’d wish to be treated if you were them!! Now where have I heard THAT before, and who now pays NO attention to it regarding their KIDS!! Fucking shit-assed amazing, id’n't it!!?? < All right, I think I get the point. The way you would treat an adult in such a situation is different than how most would treat a child. When you pull an adult back, you do it out of concern. You may tell them something like, "You should be more careful", but the tone would be an honest one. One of concern or perhaps disbelief at their lack of attention. When most people pull a child back they then start to go after the kid, as if they wish to leave a lasting impression and they react at least partially in anger. You’d probably want to provide more of an explanation to a child if they were young, perhaps, but it should be with the same tone you would use with an adult (ie. what if that adult was obviously mentally handicapped-you might tell them that they need to look both ways, etc. but you wouldn’t whack them either). In other words, when one deals with an adult in this situation you are usually dealing with the assumption that the adult is simply careless. However, it could be that a child is being careless or that they just don’t know. Because these situations are somewhat differnet, I’d say that my response would be different but not in tone or treatment. The way you describe dealing with the outside sounds like what I am doing in respect to my parents. Tell me more since I find that I am agreeing with you more. Like I said before, I know that I don’t want to parent like mine did. My parents were unfair, capricious and prone to spanking, yelling, etc. In return, I made their lives rather unpleasant at times. When they would come home after a bad day and immediately start yelling as they walked in the door(can’t do this to adults so take it out on the kiddies), I’d turn around and egg them on then or later to make them feel the same way. After a spanking (after the initial I hate them and want to hit them too), I’d plot how to get revenge. My favorite method, discovered when I was around 10, was to become an avid reader of Parents and Psychology Today. Parents really love being told that they’ve got it all wrong and that they are morons by their children! I spent a good chunk of my childhood getting back at them. Over all, I’d say that my parents’ methods created children who were deceitful, lying, angry, vengeful, hateful, who had no real respect for their parents (even if they displayed fake respect) and who wouldn’t tell their parents a thing. I’d never go to my parents with a problem- why would I want to? Obviously, I don’t want this for my children. Jane Before you buy.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You tell me and I’ll tell you specifics if you like. I’ve already done > this and have two kids in their mid 20’s alive and sound raised that > way. > Steve- > As an introduction of sorts: > I started reading this newsgroup because I am thinking about how I > would like to raise my children (because I know I don’t want to raise > them the way I was) and am looking for suggestions on how to help my > younger sister and stepbrothers. > I’ve been following the post on Satanic Bible reading teen because my > sister (15) is Wiccan and has a lot of problems with my bible-thumping, > whacko stepmother. She also has more general problems with my parents. > For instance, my father called me on the phone and told me that they > were not going to allow my sister to get a learner’s permit because she > was eating in her room (not allowed, so she was hiding the evidence) > and not keeping her room clean. Supposedly this proves that she can not > be "trusted". Personally, I think that they are just freaking out > because she is moving out of their control.
They SOUND like a couple of abusive fucking NUTS!!! That sort of shit is mind-control, not parenting! I wish she’d just leave home, she’d be better off on the street! > Anyway, > Although I don’t totally agree with your posts, I don’t totally > disagree with them either. > Some questions: > How do you deal with an infant or young child who is attempting to do > something dangerous? That is to say, how do you teach your children > that there are realities that they must follow (ie. avoiding dangerous > situations that would cause bodily harm)? Obviously you could redirect > an infant or try to educate a young child. But what if they persist? > Were you ever forced to exert some authority?
If an adult is about to step into traffic, and you pull them back, have you violated them?? No. So do THAT! Do you get nasty to the adult for not looking where they were going and give them a time out?? If you try they’ll finally punch your fucking lights out!! All good acts revolve around treating them as you’d wish to be treated if you were them!! Now where have I heard THAT before, and who now pays NO attention to it regarding their KIDS!! Fucking shit-assed amazing, id’n't it!!?? > Did your children have problems dealing with the authority in schools > (they certainly don’t all believe in being friends with children), > etc.? How did you explain to your children the difference in attitude?
To our kids the schools were described as being run by sexually bigoted insane people who can hurt your life bad if you don’t avoid them as much as possible by any means necessary. Also don’t believe a word they say that doesn’t make sense. Smile a lot and wait to be pissed off when you get home. They are like a natural catastrophe, you can’t argue with them, but you do NOT have to believe they are right or good! In the future when we learn to control such vicious assholes they will be eliminated from any decent future society! > How did you explain the contradictions between your views/practices and > the majority of the US people? > I probably have some other questions as well. > Jane
We told them, our first at about age 4 and our second, all of us sort of told her a few times, that the rest of the world was crazy because they were antisexually abused by their parents and society. We proved this by pointing out that these people don’t take their clothes off or fuck in front of their kids, and once we proved it to them (they didn’t believe it!) this was enough to convince our kids that other people, other than a careful circle of our friends, were totally and irredemably insane and not to be trusted!! This made the rest of society the equivalent of a vicious dog, two-headed baby or other very strange phenomenon beyond reality in our children’s minds. They whispered in our ear to ask us who was safe for a couple years, and then they figured it all out. Steve
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Steve, > I’ve been reading the thread on the Satan Bible, and don’t have much to offer > it, but I do have a question for you. > That’s good. But I think the Satanic Bible is merely good theater. > It was never supposed to be taken seriously. Those who know LaVey also > know that he was a cynic, he believed anybody who believed in such crap, > either the bible or his book, richly DESERVED to be taken advantage of!! > I find your post interesting to read, > because they are so very different form the way I plan to parent, and the > sharp contrasts forces me to be more certain in who I am as a parent. OK>, > here’s my question. > Do you, as a parent have any limits at all? Is there anything your kids could > do that would cause you to say No? > In truth you cannot say no and have it stick unless the teen wants it > to, and if you do it to younger kids they just wait till they’re big > enough to knock you on your ass, so why bother with a pretense to power, > when the best way to relate to ANY other human being is as a friend. > So become a friend NOW so you won’t have to mend fences before you can > TRY to change roles when they are an adult, and you will know them as an > adult far longer than you ever have as a child! > Power simply NEVER works! Compulsion doesn’t work and it ALWAYS breeds > resentments that make it fail even worse than merely failing to work, > they make the other person intentionally do things to get back to you, > which might bind them into doing things even THEY wouldn’t do except to > fuck you up. So why bother?? > Even when they’re small you don’t have to force them, there is ALWAYS > another way, a respectful honoring way, bribery if need be, but never > threaten something they count on or you have SINNED and their resentment > and their distance from you there begins! > Certainly, you have very definite ideas > about lots of thigs; what happens when your children, as they invariably do, > disagree with you or challenge you? Curious. > Jess > I was merely their friend, not their master. They didn’t need to > challenge me, it wasn’t even possible, because I wouldn’t accept the > role of "keeper". If I disagreed it was only words, they could like it > or dislike it with total impunity. I didn’t even TRY to "enforce" it, oh > what a stupid thing to do THAT would have been!! > But they came to me and their mom for comfort and a place to hide when > they were hurt or disappointed, a place where they could tell everything > they did, thought, or wanted to do with total impunity. We are extremely > close. > I didn’t run the house, it was a consensus arrangment of friends > bartering this for that to get what each of us wanted. The intrusion of > outerworld authority or law was simply something we all voluntarily > conspired to avoid, like any other natural disaster or something. > I told them if they didn’t go to school that we could either wait for > the police to take them away, or we could leave town and try to live in > the woods someplace, or keep moving and never have a stable home, and > they decided that school was simpler and would probably be interesting > for a while. Notably they ditched it for Junior College as soon as it > was legal. > They never had a bedtime nor were they forced to do anything, but they > were always interested in what we knew about things so they could make > their lives work, and they paid good attention, making a lot of > modifications, but the things we were worried about they satisfied. > They call us by our first names, like you call your sister or brother by > their name and not always "brother" or "sister". I’m just a big asshole, > but my kids know that, and they tease me about it. They say, "Aw Stevie, > you’re just a big asshole!", and they kiss me. They can do that because > this asshole never FORCED them to "obey" my assholiness. They were free > to laugh in my face. > I also cried and begged a lot for them to be careful, and they were very > touched by my performances. Even after they didn’t believe my theatrics > anymore they were still impressed by the humiliation I’d suffer just to > make them aware I was worried so that they would be just a little safer. > You tell me and I’ll tell you specifics if you like. I’ve already done > this and have two kids in their mid 20’s alive and sound raised that > way. > Steve
Yeah. Didn’t we see them on America’s Most Wanted, trying to bribe the FBI with sex?
Response:
> You tell me and I’ll tell you specifics if you like. I’ve already done > this and have two kids in their mid 20’s alive and sound raised that > way.
Steve- As an introduction of sorts: I started reading this newsgroup because I am thinking about how I would like to raise my children (because I know I don’t want to raise them the way I was) and am looking for suggestions on how to help my younger sister and stepbrothers. I’ve been following the post on Satanic Bible reading teen because my sister (15) is Wiccan and has a lot of problems with my bible-thumping, whacko stepmother. She also has more general problems with my parents. For instance, my father called me on the phone and told me that they were not going to allow my sister to get a learner’s permit because she was eating in her room (not allowed, so she was hiding the evidence) and not keeping her room clean. Supposedly this proves that she can not be "trusted". Personally, I think that they are just freaking out because she is moving out of their control. Anyway, Although I don’t totally agree with your posts, I don’t totally disagree with them either. Some questions: How do you deal with an infant or young child who is attempting to do something dangerous? That is to say, how do you teach your children that there are realities that they must follow (ie. avoiding dangerous situations that would cause bodily harm)? Obviously you could redirect an infant or try to educate a young child. But what if they persist? Were you ever forced to exert some authority? Did your children have problems dealing with the authority in schools (they certainly don’t all believe in being friends with children), etc.? How did you explain to your children the difference in attitude? How did you explain the contradictions between your views/practices and the majority of the US people? I probably have some other questions as well. Jane Before you buy.
Response:
Steve, I’ve been reading the thread on the Satan Bible, and don’t have much to offer it, but I do have a question for you. I find your post interesting to read, because they are so very different form the way I plan to parent, and the sharp contrasts forces me to be more certain in who I am as a parent. OK>, here’s my question. Do you, as a parent have any limits at all? Is there anything your kids could do that would cause you to say No? Certainly, you have very definite ideas about lots of thigs; what happens when your children, as they invariably do, disagree with you or challenge you? Curious. Jess "Adorable children are considered to be the general property of the human race. Rude children belong strictly to their mothers." - Judith Martin, aka Miss Manners
Response:
> Steve, > I’ve been reading the thread on the Satan Bible, and don’t have much to offer > it, but I do have a question for you.
That’s good. But I think the Satanic Bible is merely good theater. It was never supposed to be taken seriously. Those who know LaVey also know that he was a cynic, he believed anybody who believed in such crap, either the bible or his book, richly DESERVED to be taken advantage of!! > I find your post interesting to read, > because they are so very different form the way I plan to parent, and the > sharp contrasts forces me to be more certain in who I am as a parent. OK>, > here’s my question. > Do you, as a parent have any limits at all? Is there anything your kids could > do that would cause you to say No?
In truth you cannot say no and have it stick unless the teen wants it to, and if you do it to younger kids they just wait till they’re big enough to knock you on your ass, so why bother with a pretense to power, when the best way to relate to ANY other human being is as a friend. So become a friend NOW so you won’t have to mend fences before you can TRY to change roles when they are an adult, and you will know them as an adult far longer than you ever have as a child! Power simply NEVER works! Compulsion doesn’t work and it ALWAYS breeds resentments that make it fail even worse than merely failing to work, they make the other person intentionally do things to get back to you, which might bind them into doing things even THEY wouldn’t do except to fuck you up. So why bother?? Even when they’re small you don’t have to force them, there is ALWAYS another way, a respectful honoring way, bribery if need be, but never threaten something they count on or you have SINNED and their resentment and their distance from you there begins! > Certainly, you have very definite ideas > about lots of thigs; what happens when your children, as they invariably do, > disagree with you or challenge you? Curious. > Jess
I was merely their friend, not their master. They didn’t need to challenge me, it wasn’t even possible, because I wouldn’t accept the role of "keeper". If I disagreed it was only words, they could like it or dislike it with total impunity. I didn’t even TRY to "enforce" it, oh what a stupid thing to do THAT would have been!! But they came to me and their mom for comfort and a place to hide when they were hurt or disappointed, a place where they could tell everything they did, thought, or wanted to do with total impunity. We are extremely close. I didn’t run the house, it was a consensus arrangment of friends bartering this for that to get what each of us wanted. The intrusion of outerworld authority or law was simply something we all voluntarily conspired to avoid, like any other natural disaster or something. I told them if they didn’t go to school that we could either wait for the police to take them away, or we could leave town and try to live in the woods someplace, or keep moving and never have a stable home, and they decided that school was simpler and would probably be interesting for a while. Notably they ditched it for Junior College as soon as it was legal. They never had a bedtime nor were they forced to do anything, but they were always interested in what we knew about things so they could make their lives work, and they paid good attention, making a lot of modifications, but the things we were worried about they satisfied. They call us by our first names, like you call your sister or brother by their name and not always "brother" or "sister". I’m just a big asshole, but my kids know that, and they tease me about it. They say, "Aw Stevie, you’re just a big asshole!", and they kiss me. They can do that because this asshole never FORCED them to "obey" my assholiness. They were free to laugh in my face. I also cried and begged a lot for them to be careful, and they were very touched by my performances. Even after they didn’t believe my theatrics anymore they were still impressed by the humiliation I’d suffer just to make them aware I was worried so that they would be just a little safer. You tell me and I’ll tell you specifics if you like. I’ve already done this and have two kids in their mid 20’s alive and sound raised that way. Steve
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