Question:
> Here’s a question for you: What if your baby required immediate surgery at > birth to correct some congenital defect, whatever that be. Do you propose > that he would be ruined for life due to the pain and trauma? Can a baby > differentiate the difference between the pain of a medically needed > operation and one that may not be necessary such as circumcision? Geez, your > psycho-babble is just too much! > M&D
I think that the main principle in arguments against circumcision is "If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it." In other words, there are ligitimate grounds for considering a surgical procedure on an infant, namely injury, disease, and congenital defect; and in the absence of these, there is no grounds for subjecting the child to any unnecessary suffering. -seric
Response:
> Although this is a "thread-bare" thread I feel that people have a right to > discuss this topic to whatever end they want. I think as a courtesy the > should always include "circ" in the title of their post, but I don’t think > we should start towards censoring any one topic on this ng.
I agree. As long as the threads are identified, people can just skip over them. BTW, Since we’re talking about people’s rights, What do you think of this principle: People have a right to be allowed to grow up with the normal genitals they were born with. Can you think of any grounds for rejecting this principle. I personally think that it should be regarded as a moral imperative. Of course, it would preclude almost every case of circumcision. -seric
Response:
> Dear Gary and Layle, > You are quite right, I am sorry but I came into this late and I didn’t > know how much had already been covered. > Lorne D. Gilsig
Yes, I agree. I’ve just opted out. It’s like a merry-go-round. Lots of noise but not going anywhere. Ric
Response:
> > Dear Gary and Layle, > You are quite right, I am sorry but I came into this late and I didn’t > know how much had already been covered. > Lorne D. Gilsig > Yes, I agree. I’ve just opted out. It’s like a merry-go-round. Lots of > noise but not going anywhere.
Not really–the circ rates continue to drop nationally. I’d say that’s progress! :) Grace Boockholdt
Response:
You are right on the money! I was just about to post a similar message to yours. I have been popping in and out lately and at this point tired of these "circ" posts. I agree… do it privately or just get over it. MJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Am I the only one who would KINDLY request that the remaining few > circ/non-circ debaters take the discussion privately? This is getting > really old, and we are WAY past the point of presenting different > perspectives and choices. I know if I don’t want to read them, I can just > skip the circ posts (which I do, by the way), but it’s getting pretty ugly > and drawn out. If I’m being unreasonable or if this is bad "netiquitte" to > ask, please forgive!
Response:
If the amount of energy spent and continuing to be spent on this "circ" issue could only be placed in a more productive forum… ie our childrens education, getting drugs and violence out of school, abused children….imagine all the problems we could have solved already! MJ
Response:
I’m with you. Helen. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Am I the only one who would KINDLY request that the remaining few > circ/non-circ debaters take the discussion privately? This is getting > really old, and we are WAY past the point of presenting different > perspectives and choices. I know if I don’t want to read them, I can > just > skip the circ posts (which I do, by the way), but it’s getting pretty > ugly > and drawn out. If I’m being unreasonable or if this is bad > "netiquitte" to > ask, please forgive!
Response:
: If the amount of energy spent and continuing to be spent on this "circ" : issue could only be placed in a more productive forum… ie our childrens : education, getting drugs and violence out of school, So you might come in on nz.politics, the marijuana thread, and give some help. If you can bear that debate. Or shall we start up with the firearms lobbies – I read how `cool’ it is to carry a weapon. abused : children….imagine all the problems we could have solved already! : MJ The corporal punishment one? Going to the specialist circumcision and spanking and drugs groups misses some attention from ordinary folk. But we could take the circumcision discussion to the alt.circumcision group. BTW I did not know about that group until I saw articles cross posted here. I then considered cross posting to that group, and possibly making it followup to that group. But this group seems to be more with parents thinking of children. To what extent do you think the various poverties you speak of are a result of overpopulation? Can we live together in a better, more co-ordinated fashion and continue to increase population? I ask again on the topic with which I came to this newsgroup. As we decrease our family size do children have less opportunity to observe parenting and so need other ways to learn how to deal with a screaming kid? No one seemed interested to discuss on that. Does no comment mean point taken but I can’t work out a solution? How well does pre-school help children learn to be carers by observation? Have the people who do home schooling of small families though this through? There must be some learning of care through being the recipient. But you mighn’t remember the very early stuff. I wonder if Lorne will take the bite on this -he said he does not remember any pain in regard to a certain unmentionable procedure. What does that mean for the learning as a recipient? Perhaps the memory was not good? Dodo Dolphin.
Response:
Although this is a "thread-bare" thread I feel that people have a right to discuss this topic to whatever end they want. I think as a courtesy the should always include "circ" in the title of their post, but I don’t think we should start towards censoring any one topic on this ng. — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Am I the only one who would KINDLY request that the remaining few > circ/non-circ debaters take the discussion privately? This is getting > really old, and we are WAY past the point of presenting different > perspectives and choices. I know if I don’t want to read them, I can just > skip the circ posts (which I do, by the way), but it’s getting pretty ugly > and drawn out. If I’m being unreasonable or if this is bad "netiquitte" to > ask, please forgive!
Response:
G and L, et al – Well, there *are* a half-dozen or so of them hashing it out, now, aren’t there? How are they supposed to conveniently "take it private?" And why should they? Sure, there are a couple of people who need to refrain from getting angry, especially over the stupidity of others (for where would it end?), but I find this all very informative. Especially some of the posts put up today. It is a very difficult issue to reach a firm conclusion on, for most people. I recently went through a similar discussion on circumcision in a parents’ chat. One fellow there had been circ’d in his early twenties some years ago to combat frequent infections, so, as he noted, he had the somewhat unique ability to discuss what it was like both "to be or not to be." He also observed that it seemed to him that most of the people who were strongly "pro" uncirc’d penises had never had to live with one! And he was having his child circ’d. I would also submit that people should quit objecting to having posts cc’d to their email. The practice is not a form of harassment. It is common courtesy, as many news servers routinely miss posts for one reason or another, so you could miss the public post even if you are checking the board regularly. It is done to be sure you get a chance to respond to the critical article. You can just delete it if you don’t like it, rather than expect others to remember that *you* don’t want email. Thanks, Lynne, for the scientific approach to the question. I am still not convinced that the pain involved isn’t outweighed by the convenience for the rest of the child’s life, but I am glad to know people are working on the problem. For what it’s worth, my two sons seemed to hardly notice anything had been done. They were only a couple of days old, but they sure knew how to make it known when they didn’t like something. If it had been very painful, I think they would have responded more vigorously. Ralph Cushman
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Am I the only one who would KINDLY request that the remaining few >circ/non-circ debaters take the discussion privately?
Response:
Am I the only one who would KINDLY request that the remaining few circ/non-circ debaters take the discussion privately? This is getting really old, and we are WAY past the point of presenting different perspectives and choices. I know if I don’t want to read them, I can just skip the circ posts (which I do, by the way), but it’s getting pretty ugly and drawn out. If I’m being unreasonable or if this is bad "netiquitte" to ask, please forgive!
Response:
Dear Gary and Layle, You are quite right, I am sorry but I came into this late and I didn’t know how much had already been covered. Lorne D. Gilsig
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