Question:
WOW!! I said something similer on the rottie listserver and got called a big racist. I agree with you… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >The Oakland Rottie attack occurred in a low-income neighborhood where many >people’s lives are very disorganized, dogs are purchased for protection, >seldom if ever trained and, they do get stolen from back yards and turn up >in someone else’s yard as "protection." >There are large concentrations of Rottweilers and pitbulls in such >neighborhoods; the dogs are frequently unsupervised, as are children. I’m >surprised it doesn’t happen more often. It seldom, if ever, happens in >middle class neighborhoods.
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Finally somebody with my own politically un correct opinions! We give people tests for a lot less things in life. Having a child is a lot bigger responsibility than driving a car, yet all you need to have a baby is to spread legs for your man. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Kids Taunted Rottweilers, Police Say >8-year-old in group of Oakland boys teasing dogs >As I have stated before in this Newsgroup – there should be legal >testing requirements before being allowed to own a dog or to have >children! >Liz > Elizabeth Kouyoumjan. Briarwood Brussels Griffons > Visit our beautiful Homepage. > http://home.earthlink.net/~elizabethk/ > "In every path there is a puddle" > CYMRU – GWLAD FY NHADAU
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Does anyone have any suggestions for a 2-dog household where the newest male, neutered addition insists on marking his territory once in awhile in inappropriate indoor places? Aside from this he’s wonderful. Thanks in advance Corinna
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What happened: the owner (a young man, friend of the family that owned the child) got a Rottie two months ago from a breeder who, he says, told him the dog was "not aggressive toward people." Uh-huh, sure. The dog owner and his wife were having a 4th of July dinner; the parents of the child, and their one-year-old boy, were over visiting. The owner’s wife was walking down the back steps to the yard with the child, "to see the doggie." The dog was chained out (where have we heard this before, folks?), on a chain that was supposed to be just long enough to let him reach his water dish and dog house, but not the back steps. But, just now on TV, the newsman showed that the chain just about made it all the way to the steps. The dog went for the kid, apparently unprovoked, pulling the child away from the owner’s wife, and hauled it off to the dog house, mauling it. The child made it to the hospital where it died from severe head wounds. Tonight, the dog’s ex owner (it has been put down) blamed the breeder for not telling him it was a mean dog. (Where has this owner been for the last two months?) — and he said "the chain stretched." A metal chain suddenly became several feet longer. Oh, yeah, sure. If you believe that one, I have this bridge in Broolyn I’d like you to see… The kid’s parents do not blame their friends. Pity. Sounds to me like severe neglect of a dog that obviously needed a lot more socialization AND supervision than it got. | One advantage of a black Flat-Coated Retriever is that | | you can easily see the hairs while you’re picking them | | out of the butter. | | — Pet Partners Anne Cotton, and Flatcoats | | Cinderbin Neg’s Molly Malone CD, CGC ("Molly") | | and Fireside’s Que Continuum CGC ("Que") |
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Excerpts from netnews.rec.pets.dogs.breeds: 4-Jul-96 Re: Rottweiler > Think of it as evolution in action- Too many kids here in CA, but nature > takes care of the dumb ones (with one very good definiton of "Dumb" > being teasing, taunting- or being anything less than respectful with- an > animal that can tear you to pieces)
Yeah, maybe humans have been around too long without a natural predator, and Mother nature has finally decided to do something about it. lynn I’m mostly joking.
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Just heard this on the news tonight so details are sketchy but Rottie owners in MA better gear up for any legislative potentials there! The owner of the Rottie was supposedly carrying a child (not his) in his arms when the dog leaped up and attacked the kid. The child was in traumatic arrest by the time medical care was reached and was unrevivable. 
Nancy
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: > Think of it as evolution in action – Too many kids here : > in CA, but nature takes care of the dumb ones (with : > one very good definition of "Dumb" being teasing : >, taunting- or being anything less than respectful with- : > an animal that can tear you to pieces) : : This is a very cruel response. A little boy is dead. He died a : frightening, horrible death. IMHO The PARENTS of this kid are guilty. either A) they didn’t teach their kids NOT to tease big dogs, and/or B) they wern’t watching their kids, thus allowing them to get into such trouble. Nature culls the gene for stupidity/irresponsibility (but then IMHO not every set of MORONS with working equipment should be allowed to have kids.) If Darwin misses the parents he strikes down the line. : : He didn’t "deserve" to die, Very few people "deserve" to die, true. A lot do die anyway many well before the age of reproductive viability. Imagine the overpopulation situation otherwise. and he and the other kids involved thought : they were playing with the dogs, they didn’t intend to be cruel or to : torment the dogs. They thought they were playing with a ball. B.S. If the kid is old enough to play without adult supervision they are old enough to know not to tease dogs. Sounds like Dumbass parents to me; but then it sounds like (thankfully) the posibility of these genes being passed on have been reduced. : : Is your idea of "evolution in action" having powerful dogs tear up little : kids. When you say "too many kids here in CA" are you referring to little : black kids? Gawd, get a life; CA is way overcrowded. I am childfree, but I don’t particularly wish to see any kids die- in a painful manner or otherwise, black or white, ‘hood or ritzy neighborhood, but then stupidity is one thing that natural selection looks for- a good example being the MORONS who leave a gun out where the kid can get it; kid blows out brains- hey one way or another MORON genes removed from the gene pool- it SHOULD HAVE been the parents (who should have been ‘fixed’ long before breeding) but regardless, moron genes removed from the pool; much better way of keeping the population down than something like a war which might also eliminate non moron genes. If you wish to flame my callous (but NON RACIST,damn you)ass then do it in email, or on alt.flame- save the bandwith here. : : BridgetH1
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: BTW: In my post to this thread I : said something like "kids think : teasing and taunting is playing". : Clearly, that should have read : "SOME kids" – too damn many, but : far from all. : : JohnR Think of it as evolution in action- Too many kids here in CA, but nature takes care of the dumb ones (with one very good definiton of "Dumb" being teasing, taunting- or being anything less than respectful with- an animal that can tear you to pieces)
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> Think of it as evolution in action – Too many kids here > in CA, but nature takes care of the dumb ones (with > one very good definition of "Dumb" being teasing >, taunting- or being anything less than respectful with- > an animal that can tear you to pieces)
This is a very cruel response. A little boy is dead. He died a frightening, horrible death. He didn’t "deserve" to die, and he and the other kids involved thought they were playing with the dogs, they didn’t intend to be cruel or to torment the dogs. They thought they were playing with a ball. Is your idea of "evolution in action" having powerful dogs tear up little kids. When you say "too many kids here in CA" are you referring to little black kids? BridgetH1
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> Actually there were two Rotty attacks here. In the first one, the kids >were "playing" with the dog when it attacked and killed a boy. The second >attack happened a couple days ago. Mother and two children were walking on >sidewalk when the Rott attacked both children without provocation. The dog >would not let go of the girls head until a man stabbed the dog with a >screwdriver. The dog apparently died of heat exhaustion.
Too much of this is happening and there are dogs out there ( of many breeds ), right in your very neighborhood that are accidents waiting to happen. And it usually with the outside dog, the dog being out more than it should. If you research the incidents, you will find it never is a dog that is well socialized and has been integrated into the family’s living quarters. This is one of the prime reasons I am against the outside dog. Particularly with any of the protective or bull breeds. Yes, I knew there are lots of breeders with outside dogs as well as huntsmen, herdsmen, sled dogs, etc. that keep thier dogs primarily outside. But these are dog people not naive pet owners. Dog people never put their dogs in a position to irritate nor menace the neighbors. Nor are the dogs put in a situation where they are agitated by outside acitivity deliberate or not. Kids will be kids, that will not change. And it is not always the child’s fault. But no matter who is to blame( it usually is the dog’s owner), child is injured or worse and dog is killed. No one wins here. The key issue here is to keep your dog out of harms way. Do not leave your dog out when gone, overnite or whenever you are not in a position to abort inappropiate. Nor should you permit your dog to get woked up, hyper, or generally agitated by activities in and adjacent to it’s yard. Don’t let a good dog get bad, and do not allow your dog to be an accident waiting to happen. Take dog for walks and classes. Let the dog see and mingle with others, off it’s property. Less yard time and more walking time would do you and dog a bit of good. It also gets a better bond going. Breeders, vets, trainers, pet supply stores allned to start spreading the word and help some of the naive Rottie and other protective breeds keep their dogs out of trouble. Breed bans will come your way if you don’t get the pet owners educated. And breeders, if your puppy purchaser is going to keep their Rottweiller as an outside dog, do not sell them a dog nor place a rescue dog with them. For that is the person that is responsible for most of todays "problems". Bob Maida Manassas,Va
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writes: >The newspapers here have actually done a pretty good job of keeping things >in perspective – interviewing responsible Rottweiler breeders and >emphasizing that ALL breeds of dogs can be dangerous if not socialized >and trained properly. Its hard to say where blame lies in this situation – >after all, the dogs were supposedly in the garage, away from the >children. However, if they were properly socialized would this have >occurred?
Probably not. The pet owners if charged with reckless endangerment(as a felony) and held fully accountable with financial responsibily and jail time, would do more in solving the "problem" than any breed specific laws. This all occurs all from ignorance. But because this idiot had to have a pair of Rottweillers the children had to suffer. The dogs will also have to forfeit their lives because of this fool. Start holding these people more accountable and maybe others will prevent their dog from becoming an accident waiting to happen. Breeders can also do their part by not selling their dogs to such idiots. Push your council or legislature for stronger and more severe dangerous dog laws.But be sure they are based on deed, rather than breed. Bob Maida Manassas,Va
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I agree with Lynn re local coverage of this incident. The San Francisco Examiner covered this story very well. The reporter spent hours at the Oakland Animal Shelter and really made an attempt to understand what had happened and to shed some light on this type of thing. KQED’s panel discussion was excellent! So far, I’ve only seen one letter to the editor (Oakland Tribune) calling for some sort of breed ban. BridgetH1
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To Bridget and Lynn, Thanks for documenting the media coverage, and thank god that it appears to have been high on useful info and low on hysteria. BTW: In my post to this thread I said something like "kids think teasing and taunting is playing". Clearly, that should have read "SOME kids" – too damn many, but far from all. JohnR
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: Kids Taunted Rottweilers, Police Say : 8-year-old in group of Oakland boys teasing dogs : Two rottweilers that fatally mauled an Oakland boy apparently (Copyrighted article snipped) : No, while the owner was at fault for that, offhand I’d say those : responsibility for ALL of this was the KIDS, and parents, had they left : the dogs alone this would not have happened! Had the parents taught their : kids NOT to tease animals this would not have happened! I think excusing : them because they are "just children" is a cop out. : Unfortunately it’s not the kids who will be charged or punished, but the : dogs, owner and the breed along with innocent dog owners. : The media gets all bent out of shape over this, Fortunately, that is not the case in this situation. This child’s death was a terrible tragedy, but has not resulted in breed hysteria and very few have been irresponsible enough to assign blame. This situation was far too complex and covered quite a long period of interaction. One television station trotted out that ridiculous Parenting magazine article with bites by breed, but the other media coverage has been pretty even handed. It is not clear whether the 2 dogs got out on their own or were let out of their fenced yard, and there were numerous witnesses to the kids alternately playing with and teasing the dogs throughout the entire day. One child even took the dogs home to his parents and asked if he could keep them. The owner was very cooperative with the police. KQED devoted an hour’s radio talk show the day after with the Alameda Animal Control Director, the 20-year director of the SF SPCA, and a local trainer who rescues and rehabilitates APBTs. Much of the show was discussion on how to teach children to interact with dogs and to avoid physical actions that might provoke prey drives. No listeners called in with breed-panic type nonsense. My personal belief is that this tragedy was too serious for the kind of kneejerk flamethrowing that a dog attack that did not result in the death of a child might provoke. Other than the one CBS affiliate, I really don’t think the media behaved too badly in this case. They certainly have covered the entire situation, not just the fact that a child was killed. It is not fair to assume the reactions of the media or the population of an area when you can’t witness it firsthand. Labored correlations to automobile drivers and children playing with matches are not particularly constructive either. A horrible thing happened. An extended interspecies interaction went bad and a child was killed by 2 dogs. I think the more appropriate reaction is terrible sadness rather than anger or a need to blame someone. Lynn —
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Bridget writes:
:The kids were not taunting the dogs, :they were playing with them. :Apparently, things got too rough over :a ball the dogs had. In the end it amounted :to teasing, but the kids were not doing it :to deliberately antagonize the dogs. As they :saw it, they were playing with the dogs. In that case, they saw it very, very wrong. But I’ve seen enough kids "playing" with dogs to know that kids think taunting and teasing is play. People who raise kids to be so damn stupid about dangerous things have a lot to answer for themselves. JohnR
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I understand what you mean by needing stricter leash laws. I have lived in Spokane for a year and the only kind of animal attack that I heard of was when an adult male african lion escaped from a local conservation park and killed a couple of sheep on a farm just outside of town. There are very strict leash laws and confinement laws in Spokane, regarding cats and dogs. When I lived in Indianapolis, there were several dog attacks because owners didn’t keep their dogs in proper facilities and there was no legislation to see that they would do so. And just so everyone know, yes there were a lot of Rottweiler and Pit Bull attacks, but for some reason Akitas and GSD’s made the papers too. One attack in particular, occured, when a man was walking his Akita and Rottie off leash in a public park, and the dogs attacked a woman passing by. I’m not sure of the entire circumstances of the incident, but I do know that the city order both dogs put down, because they not only attacked that woman, but they were also violent with the handlers at the pound.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Bridget writes: >:The kids were not taunting the dogs, >:they were playing with them. >:Apparently, things got too rough over >:a ball the dogs had. In the end it amounted >:to teasing, but the kids were not doing it >:to deliberately antagonize the dogs. As they >:saw it, they were playing with the dogs. >In that case, they saw it very, very wrong. >But I’ve seen enough kids "playing" with >dogs to know that kids think taunting and >teasing is play. People who raise kids to >be so damn stupid about dangerous things >have a lot to answer for themselves. >JohnR
Actually there were two Rotty attacks here. In the first one, the kids were "playing" with the dog when it attacked and killed a boy. The second attack happened a couple days ago. Mother and two children were walking on sidewalk when the Rott attacked both children without provocation. The dog would not let go of the girls head until a man stabbed the dog with a screwdriver. The dog apparently died of heat exhaustion. Shirley
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I agree that the blame, in almost all cases of dog attacks, lies with the owners… In almost all cases, the dogs are not properly fenced or trained. Here in NC we had an attack last week that has resulted in the usual call for breed banning. A mother, her 9 yr. old and 5 year old children were visiting their aunt. The children were playing and yelling, the aunt’s two Rottweilers burst through a door into the den from the garage and began attacking. Get this – the mother grabs the nine year old and she and the aunt run out of the house, leaving the five year old behind, being attacked. They called the police, the fire dept. arrived first, couldn’t enter the house due to the dogs, sprayed pepper spray on them through an opening in the door and the aunt ran in and grabbed the child, who was put in critical/serious condition in the hospital with multiple bites to the head and legs. One dog died at the site, they believe it was due to a combination of the spray and overexertion. The other, a female, is being tested for rabies. Animal control said they believe the attack was precipitated by the heat and the children yelling. However, no mention was made of any training the dogs had received…Note also that this was a male/female pair of dogs – perhaps for breeding? The newspapers here have actually done a pretty good job of keeping things in perspective – interviewing responsible Rottweiler breeders and emphasizing that ALL breeds of dogs can be dangerous if not socialized and trained properly. Its hard to say where blame lies in this situation – after all, the dogs were supposedly in the garage, away from the children. However, if they were properly socialized would this have occurred?
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I have to agree with the previous poster that these stories are always published and sensationalized. Especially the stuff about pit bull attacks. My next door neighbor had two pit bulls both of which were abused, but neither one of these dogs ever attacked me, in fact when I reached over the fence to pet them, they licked my hands. Owners should be made more responsible for the care they give their pets. And any time a child plays with a dog they should be supervised 100% of the time. I don’t care how well you know the dog, the children should be supervised, for their safety and the safety of the dog. I feel very strongly that, no matter what, you can’t trust kids to handle a dog properly. Every child should be taught to handle a dog properly, but you can’t expect them to not get rough, they are kids. They should be supervised to be sure that they are handling the dog properly, and if they are getting too rough, they should be made to leave the dog alone until they can learn to play with the dog without getting rough. Both the owner of these dogs and the parents of the children are at fault, the owner, for not supervising his dogs when they were in an improper facility and the parents, for not supervising their children with the dogs.
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>Kids Taunted Rottweilers, Police Say >8-year-old in group of Oakland boys teasing dogs
As I have stated before in this Newsgroup – there should be legal testing requirements before being allowed to own a dog or to have children! Liz Elizabeth Kouyoumjan. Briarwood Brussels Griffons Visit our beautiful Homepage. http://home.earthlink.net/~elizabethk/ "In every path there is a puddle" CYMRU – GWLAD FY NHADAU
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The Oakland Rottie attack occurred in a low-income neighborhood where many people’s lives are very disorganized, dogs are purchased for protection, seldom if ever trained and, they do get stolen from back yards and turn up in someone else’s yard as "protection." There are large concentrations of Rottweilers and pitbulls in such neighborhoods; the dogs are frequently unsupervised, as are children. I’m surprised it doesn’t happen more often. It seldom, if ever, happens in middle class neighborhoods. If anyone wants more information on the social context here read Drive By by Gary Rivlin. It is meaningless to rail about irresponsible breeders, owners, kids not being educated, unsupervised kids, etc. While this is all true, considering the problems neighborhood residents face, it doesn’t have much meaning in an area blighted by massive unemployment and famous for a drive-by shooting. Probably the only thing(s) that could prevent future incidents would be more animal control officers in the field to respond immediately to loose dog and vicious dog calls and a large-scale education project involving the churches, schools, dog-training clubs, animal control, and other humane agencies. The whole culture of dog training is pretty middle class and it has to be made accessible to people in low income areas where most of these incidents occur. Oakland Animal Control does have an education program in place. It’s a new program . It has been very popular with elementary schools, but it obviously needs to be expanded. By the way, no-one in Oakland is calling for breed bans. BridgetH1
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This is true. People get dogs and don’t take the responsibility and the same goes for the irresponsible breeder who bred and sold these dogs .This wasn’t the first time the dogs were running free, and obviously they never were properly confined or attended to because if so they wouldn’t have been running loose in the first place, and in addition to that they were probably never socialized or trained either. Incidentatlly another rottweilerr attack took place in the San Francisco Bay area yesterday. It involved yet another dog running loose who attacked a mother and child walking down the street. I think stronger leash laws, and dog ownership laws need to be enforced. as too many innocent people are suffering from a few bad apples’s lack of responsibility, and ignorance and just plain not giving a damn.The good people with the good dogs unfortunately have to suffer too.
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Hi folks I would just like to put in my two cents worth on this rottie attack. I have read that the dogs had been running loose for some time and it was not the first time they had been running loose. We have two unpredictable elements here the rotties and the kids. We can say all we want kids should be educated about dogs and I believe that is true myself , however having said that it is not and never will be a law that kids should should be trained regarding dogs. They should be taught to respect animals not to tease them and be humane and if they become an animal owner to train thier amimals and have them under thier control for the safety of all concerned and to respect other peoples property rights realizing what the consequences might be if they enter an area where animals are present. The owner is to blame in my opinion here because he allowed two 100 pound rotties to escape on the loose. We cant take for granted that kids are ready for this scenario and I dont blame the dogs. It is the owner that must train and have his dogs under control or face the concequences. We don’t need dog bans we need laws that cover dogs capable of doing this type of damage. theese dogs must have ongoing training in a group enviroment and be properly socialized with people and pass a socialization test. If you can’t afford the training or the time investment then you should’t have the dog period. We should’t let just any idiot own theese dogs as they will inevidably ruin the quality of life for dogs that are in the hands of responsible owners by causing specific breed bans muzzle laws ect. sparky
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> If the Rotties were vicious how could the kids taunt > them without being attacked immediately by the > Rotties?
The kids were not taunting the dogs, they were playing with them. Apparently, things got too rough over a ball the dogs had. In the end it amounted to teasing, but the kids were not doing it to deliberately antagonize the dogs. As they saw it, they were playing with the dogs. > Unfortunately children that would tease a pair of > loose Rotties had not used common sense.
The kids apparently knew the dogs, had played with them before and, in fact, had taken the dogs from a yard to play with them. It seems that they had gotten out of their owners’ yard (he thought they’d been stolen) and were in someone else’s backyard. The kids took them out to play with them. I don’t think anyone realized how dangerous it was for the kids to play with these dogs. I doubt that anyone observing them realized how the dogs would react when the kids grabbed the ball or when the little boy fell (or was pushed) onto one of the dogs. It’s very sad and could have been avoided. BridgetH1 Oakland, CA
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If the Rotties were vicious how could the kids taunt them without being attacked immediately by the Rotties? Owning a large dog that is teased by children I know I need a secure fence that is almost escape proof for the protection of everyone involved. Unfortunately children that would tease a pair of loose Rotties had not used common sense, I am a large and strong man and would not do so I know parents can’t know where their kids are all the time but this was a tragedy. The owner of the dogs needs a secure area to keep any dogs he’s getting in the future. this story reminds me of the sensational pit bull stories commonly printed in the 80’s. Cocp
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