Pure Parents

Question:

[snip] I made the choice because I had a wonderful child care arrangement and I felt good about her care, because I had a fulfilling career that I was ready to get back to (and was being asked to return to), and because I am not a "baby" or "toddler" person.  I knew that form the start.  I had been around enough children to know that I was going to be much better with my daughter once she was talking and reasoning.  Something about babies and toddlers turned my into the ultimate couch potato.  I wasn’t interested in cooing, ga-ga-ing, or playing peek-a-boo.  Or cleaning up green slimey stuff or changing diapers all day.  My daughter got much more stimulation in her day care center than I had the ability to give her.  This doesn’t make me a bad parent – I was completely aware of these things before she was ever born and planned ahead for them!  And when I did get to spend time with her (after work and all weekend) I enjoyed the heck out of her.  Something that I doubt would have been the case had I been a SAH mom. —- Thanks, Laurie — my situation entirely! My daughter is 5 and I’ve always adored her, but I find that she gets even more and more wonderful to be around as she gets older. She’s such a delight! If I had decided not to have children just because I’m not well-suited to care for an infant — I’d have missed out on the 99% percent of parenthood that *isn’t* diapers and spitup and ga ga. (And I don’t think I played peek-a-boo with her even once!) A few days a week, when she was little, she’d stay home with her Dad. He’s a great Dad but he’s not a baby guy either. They watched tv a lot, and napped. I *knew* she was getting more play and more stimulation at day care! I’m looking forward to having a terrific teenager, to calling up my 25-year old out on her own and meeting at a coffee shop for an afternoon. To think that I should miss out on all the wonderment of parenting because I didn’t/couldn’t stay home the first few years is ridiculous! Pam Patton

Response:

<snipped conversation about why WOH’s choose to have children> > Okay, if you say you’re not being judgemental, then I’ll humor you. "If > you don’t wish to spend the very few years with your child then why did > you have them" isn’t judgemental……? > It does sound that way.  I should have phrased it differently.  "Why did > you have kids?"

Because I wanted to erxperience the pleasure of being a mom…because I wanted to watch a child learn…because I wanted to teach someone good morals and make the world a better place…because it’s a biological instinct in all of us to procreate…same reasons as you, I would guess. > > There are plenty of studies about the negative outcomes of having > > ‘latch-key’ kids (not to mention single parent households).  Weather or > not > > you choose to accept the findings is, of course, your choice. > Since when are we talking about latch key kids?  I thought we were > talking about parents who chose to work?  BIG difference. > I suppose I was under the assumption that ‘working’ meant ‘away from home’. >  If one is away from home then who is with the kids?

The day care worker, or the babysitter, or the grandma and grandpa, or numerous other possibilities.  One can not extrapolate research on latchkey kids to children whose parents WOH. > I have plenty of friends that are working mothers.  Some HAVE to and others > CHOOSE to.  Of those who choose to continue working, their choice is due to > (one or more) facts that their self-confidence is low (not a judgement – a > fact expressed by them), their husband wants them to work because they see > no value in motherhood, the kids came at a ‘bad’ point in their career or > marriage (unplanned or unwanted at the time of pregnancy), their parents > made it clear that they paid for education and  darn it they expected a > follow-up career, and a few other reasons.  If I was being judgmental then > I probably wouldn’t be their friend.  I understand the ‘right’.  I don’t > understand the choice. > Heidi

Heidi, you have mentioned many different scenarios and still don’t understand, which makes me think that you will never understand the choice to be a working mother. I made the choice because I had a wonderful child care arrangement and I felt good about her care, because I had a fulfilling career that I was ready to get back to (and was being asked to return to), and because I am not a "baby" or "toddler" person.  I knew that form the start.  I had been around enough children to know that I was going to be much better with my daughter once she was talking and reasoning.  Something about babies and toddlers turned my into the ultimate couch potato.  I wasn’t interested in cooing, ga-ga-ing, or playing peek-a-boo.  Or cleaning up green slimey stuff or changing diapers all day.  My daughter got much more stimulation in her day care center than I had the ability to give her.  This doesn’t make me a bad parent – I was completely aware of these things before she was ever born and planned ahead for them!  And when I did get to spend time with her (after work and all weekend) I enjoyed the heck out of her.  Something that I doubt would have been the case had I been a SAH mom. Now that she’s older I can look back and make a judgement call on my choices.  I still feel I did the right thing.  She’s 14 and going through the normal teenage angst, but I think she’s a really great kid. She knows I’m her mom, and doesn’t even remember her care givers (so much for bonding with the care giver vs. bonding with the parent).  I enjoy the heck out of her.  She seems to still have some fondness for me (although it wanes now and then… .   I’m just trying to make you understand that sometimes there are reasoned choices that work.  You may never understand because you espouse a SAH philosophy.  But I did what I thought was best for my family, and I can *still understand* why you made the choice you did.  It is an admirable choice and it works for you.  As mine worked for me. Can you understand that? Laurie     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

BIG Snip! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Never said anything about *women who work at all*.  My comment was directed > at two-income families that don’t need two incomes and yet *one parent* > (note – not *mothers*) doesn’t take responsibility for raising the kids. > In previous posts I said that two-income families who work while their > children are at school but who are , themselves, home when school (not > daycare) lets out are doing wonderful a thing for their children by being > there.  It’s the parents who abandon their children for society to raise > that I don’t understand (kids get home at three but parents are still > working so kids are at daycare until 6:30 or are latchkey kids).  Parents > with preschoolers abandon them for even longer periods of time leaving in > the care of others *who are paid* to pay attenton to them for up to 12 > hours a day.  This I don’t understand.  I wish people would quit turning > this into a *women shouldn’t work* argument.  My point is that *one parent* > should be home AND available for that child.

And what if that’s not possible?  This is the part of this argument that really burns me.  I’m a single parent.  I *have* to work to support myself and my child. I can’t be home when he gets out of school. So, because the situation forces this to happen, it’s okay, but it wouldn’t be okay if I didn’t have to do this for financial reasons? My son, now 12, went to full-time daycare starting when he was 10 weeks old.  The first 2 years were in an in-home setting.  From the age of 2 until he started kindergarten, he attended the a center, after which he did before- and after-school care there for a couple of years.  Yes, there was some turn-over in staff (which is impossible to get away from), but the environment was consistent and he was safe and happy there.   He is a very social child.  What part of this don’t you understand?  It is financially impossible for me to be home.  *Someone* has to work.  Why is that okay, and someone choosing to work is not okay?  This is what I don’t understand.  It sounds like a double standard to me, and I’ve fought those all my life. Karin, Mom to David (8/31/85) — Karin Dietterich Cruise of the Bells to Alaska in July, 1998!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have plenty of friends that are working mothers.  Some HAVE to and others > CHOOSE to.  Of those who choose to continue working, their choice is due to > (one or more) facts that their self-confidence is low (not a judgement – a > fact expressed by them), their husband wants them to work because they see > no value in motherhood, the kids came at a ‘bad’ point in their career or > marriage (unplanned or unwanted at the time of pregnancy), their parents > made it clear that they paid for education and  darn it they expected a > follow-up career, and a few other reasons.  If I was being judgmental then > I probably wouldn’t be their friend.  I understand the ‘right’.  I don’t > understand the choice. > Heidi > And from your other post: > I never made the statement that WOH parents "shouldn’t have had kids, don’t > care about their kids".  I did say working by choice was a screwed up > priority *in my opinion*.  But that is not at all related to the other two > statements which I did not make. > Nope, we don’t all have children for the same reasons.  Some have children > by accident.  Some for more selfish reasons of fulfilling other needs. > Some because their spouse wants them.  Some because they were taught that’s > what they’re supposed to do.  I know plenty of women whose hormones are > going berzerk to have babies but they’re not because they know that the > circumstances aren’t ‘right’ at the moment. > You must have a very narrow world. I really think you have some > self-confident problem yourself, otherwise why you have to put down > other people to feel good about yourself.

No put-downs here.  This is from their *own* mouths. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let me tell you, all of my friends work because they want to, not > because someone else want them to. Yes, they choose to study medicine, > engineering, science, and they become doctors, engineers and scientists. > I can also tell you their children are fine. Those with grown up, their > children go to top universities as Harvard, MIT, Johns Hopkins Medical > Schools, Stanford, Berkeley, etc. Their children are very close to their > parents and are very proud of their parents. > I also have friends who stay at home. One of my best friends in college > choose to stay at home. Yet, she has never been judgmental about other > working parents. She offers her help whenever she can. She is an example > of someone who is fully happy with her choice and has self-confidence, > not judgmental to others. > We all want to have children because we want to, love to and planed to. > (I won’t associate with people as you described, and I don’t have friends > as you described WHO/WAH or SAH).

This, however, is definitely a put-down.  Apparently people aren’t ‘good enough’ for you unless they think as you do. > We all try our best to find the best way we can to balance childbearing > and our career. > I work from home (telecomuting) since my daughter was born. My husband > changes his schedule around so that I can work while he is watching > the child.

Never said anything about *women who work at all*.  My comment was directed at two-income families that don’t need two incomes and yet *one parent* (note – not *mothers*) doesn’t take responsibility for raising the kids. In previous posts I said that two-income families who work while their children are at school but who are , themselves, home when school (not daycare) lets out are doing wonderful a thing for their children by being there.  It’s the parents who abandon their children for society to raise that I don’t understand (kids get home at three but parents are still working so kids are at daycare until 6:30 or are latchkey kids).  Parents with preschoolers abandon them for even longer periods of time leaving in the care of others *who are paid* to pay attenton to them for up to 12 hours a day.  This I don’t understand.  I wish people would quit turning this into a *women shouldn’t work* argument.  My point is that *one parent* should be home AND available for that child. Heidi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yes, I work. No, I have no self-confident problem. My parents did not > pay my tuition. I get full scholarship from undergraduate to Ph.D. > No, my husband doesn’t tell me what to do. Yes, my child is the first > priority of my life. > Do you still think I have "screwed up priority" because I choose to work? > Yes, there are working others as what you described, however, if you > enlarge your narrow world, you’ll find plenty wonderful working mothers. > Julia

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You missed the message entirely.  And there’s no ranting.  WOH mom’s have > asked that SAH try to understand.  I’m simply gathering information in that > attempt. > Oh, I see.  You’re the ASP librarian. > I never made the statement that WOH parents "shouldn’t have had kids, don’t > care about their kids".  I did say working by choice was a screwed up > priority *in my opinion*.  But that is not at all related to the other two > statements which I did not make. > I never said it was anyone else’s decision but yours if you choose to work. >  I only asked if you don’t wish to spend the very few years with your child > then why did you have them?  That’s not at all saying anyone else should > make the decision for you.  And where exactly do you see judgement in the > asking of that question?  "WHY" is not a judgement. > Okay, if you say you’re not being judgemental, then I’ll humor you. "If > you don’t wish to spend the very few years with your child then why did > you have them" isn’t judgemental……?

It does sound that way.  I should have phrased it differently.  "Why did you have kids?" > There are plenty of studies about the negative outcomes of having > ‘latch-key’ kids (not to mention single parent households).  Weather or not > you choose to accept the findings is, of course, your choice. > Since when are we talking about latch key kids?  I thought we were > talking about parents who chose to work?  BIG difference.

I suppose I was under the assumption that ‘working’ meant ‘away from home’.  If one is away from home then who is with the kids? > Nope, we don’t all have children for the same reasons.  Some have children > by accident.  Some for more selfish reasons of fulfilling other needs. > Some because their spouse wants them.  Some because they were taught that’s > what they’re supposed to do.  I know plenty of women whose hormones are > going berzerk to have babies but they’re not because they know that the > circumstances aren’t ‘right’ at the moment. > Heidi > My point remains, each family makes the decision that they feel is best > for them.  Regardless of why parents choose to work, they have the right > to make that decision.  

So you are correct.  It is their ‘right’.  I’m just trying to understand the choice. You are telling me that you’re not being > judgemental when you clearly ARE being judgemental.  That is my beef > with this whole string.

I have plenty of friends that are working mothers.  Some HAVE to and others CHOOSE to.  Of those who choose to continue working, their choice is due to (one or more) facts that their self-confidence is low (not a judgement – a fact expressed by them), their husband wants them to work because they see no value in motherhood, the kids came at a ‘bad’ point in their career or marriage (unplanned or unwanted at the time of pregnancy), their parents made it clear that they paid for education and  darn it they expected a follow-up career, and a few other reasons.  If I was being judgmental then I probably wouldn’t be their friend.  I understand the ‘right’.  I don’t understand the choice.   Heidi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> You missed the message entirely.  And there’s no ranting.  WOH mom’s have > asked that SAH try to understand.  I’m simply gathering information in that > attempt.

Oh, I see.  You’re the ASP librarian. > I never made the statement that WOH parents "shouldn’t have had kids, don’t > care about their kids".  I did say working by choice was a screwed up > priority *in my opinion*.  But that is not at all related to the other two > statements which I did not make. > I never said it was anyone else’s decision but yours if you choose to work. >  I only asked if you don’t wish to spend the very few years with your child > then why did you have them?  That’s not at all saying anyone else should > make the decision for you.  And where exactly do you see judgement in the > asking of that question?  "WHY" is not a judgement.

Okay, if you say you’re not being judgemental, then I’ll humor you. "If you don’t wish to spend the very few years with your child then why did you have them" isn’t judgemental……? > There are plenty of studies about the negative outcomes of having > ‘latch-key’ kids (not to mention single parent households).  Weather or not > you choose to accept the findings is, of course, your choice.

Since when are we talking about latch key kids?  I thought we were talking about parents who chose to work?  BIG difference. > Nope, we don’t all have children for the same reasons.  Some have children > by accident.  Some for more selfish reasons of fulfilling other needs. > Some because their spouse wants them.  Some because they were taught that’s > what they’re supposed to do.  I know plenty of women whose hormones are > going berzerk to have babies but they’re not because they know that the > circumstances aren’t ‘right’ at the moment. > Heidi

My point remains, each family makes the decision that they feel is best for them.  Regardless of why parents choose to work, they have the right to make that decision.  You are telling me that you’re not being judgemental when you clearly ARE being judgemental.  That is my beef with this whole string.

Response: