Pure Parents

Question:

>I hope that the tide will turn and parents will begin to feel less guilty >about spanking. Used properly it is an effective and positive form of >discipline. >Becky

Becky, You’re absolutely right. I don’t feel guilty at all about spanking my kids. The older they got, the less I had to spank them because they learned at an early age the difference between right and wrong and that actions carry consequences. John

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>I hope that the tide will turn and parents will begin to feel less guilty >about spanking. Used properly it is an effective and positive form of >discipline. >Becky

I too, used to think that spanking was a suitable form of discipline.  I thought this because it seemed the only one that would work.  However, after reading "Kids are Worth It" by Barbara Coloroso, I have come to the conclusion that spanking is not an effective disciplinary measure.   Think of it this way.   Do we want to influence and empower our children?   Or do we want to control them and "make them mind"? Some basic rules from the book are: 1.)  Don’t do to your child what you wouldn’t want done to you.  Remember, one day the tables will be turned and your child may be looking after you in your old age.  Imagine getting spanked for  walking out into the street or breaking something. 2.)  Any method of discipline should not be used just because it "works", but should be used only if it works AND leaves a childs dignity intact.   Spanking may work insofar as it may GET your child to do (or not do) what is requested of him, but it doesn’t leave your child with any dignity, or you either, for that matter.   Often, the natural consequences work as a disciplinary measure, IF it’s not life threatening, morally threatening or unhealthy.  Otherwise, REASONABLE consequences can be used.  Encouraging children to come up with their own solutions to their own problems will help them to understand that you love them, you trust them and you believe in them. I encourage everybody to read this book!   It has done amazing things for our family.  I never knew what was the "right" way to raise children.  This book gives you the "tools" you need to raise happy, "empowered" children who will in turn grow into happy, confident adults. Thanks for reading this.   Diana Mom to Cory, 8  Hilary, 2.5   Alexander, 14 months

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I had already swatted Zane a couple of times when one day in anger he hit his father and Zack simply said, "Why are you hitting me? I wouldn’t hit you." Did I feel like a slug or what. So now I just say in as even a voice as possible: "I’m so angry right now I could spank you." I never do. But  that coupled with a break from each other gets the idea across. I think he needs to know when I’m about go ballistic. But I don’t think he needs to feel me hitting him. I got spanked when I was a kid with, among other things, a flyswatter, a bread board, a ping pong paddle and my mother’s hand. But it was the summer I turned 7, committed a major offense and had to stay in the house or the yard until school started that really stuck with me. My hope is that if I can manage not to  hit Zane, it won’t even occur to him to hit his own child.

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writes: >I hope that the tide will turn and parents will begin to feel less guilty >about spanking. Used properly it is an effective and positive form of >discipline. >Becky

    Okay, I know I’m going to regret this.  I usually stay out of these threads, since they are generally only flame-fests.  But I fail to see how your statemet can be true.  Effective….well, I won’t argue that one way or the other.  It might work for some kids.  I have personally never met one that didn’t respond better to other forms of discipline, but I’ve not met all children.  But how, pray tell, can a spanking be *positive*?   This is not sarcasm; I am genuinely curious about your thinking on this one.  My understanding of a spanking is that it is supposed to be an unpleasant event, thereby deterring the child from repeating the objectionable behavior (in theory).  By its very nature, isn’t it a negative reinforcement, in the same way that standing in the corner or being sent to one’s room is?  For the record–we don’t spank our son because we learned that it makes things worse for him, not better.  Instead, he seems to repond very well to time-outs in a chair and old-fashioned scolding.                                  Phan, momma to Keithie (almost 3)

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I hope that the tide will turn and parents will begin to feel less guilty about spanking. Used properly it is an effective and positive form of discipline. Becky

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Without getting into whether or not spanking is acceptable/advisable, I would like to heartily reccommend a book called "Love and Logic Parenting" by Foster Kline and Jim Fay.  In a nutshell, they show how to use logical consequences to control bad behavior.  We’ve tried it, and it’s amazing how well it makes the kids think about the results of their actions.

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: If its a life or death situation there is no second chance to see if : they got the message by a time-out or redirection the first time. : Ill take my chances. I wont take theirs. Although I’ll admit I’ve lost track of what has or hasn’t been said on this thread.  It sounds like you’re saying that in a "life or death" situation (I assume you’re referring to situations like running into streets, sticking fingers in power sockets, etc.) a spanking is warranted to "save the life" of the child. You might be interested to know that research in this topic (with the intent of showing exactly what you said) has instead consistently shown that spanking a small child for behaviors such as that actually increases the frequency with which they do it.  Whereas those who are redirected are significantly less likely to attempt the behavior again. So while your point might sound good, you are actually accomplishing exactly what you say you want to prevent. Is there some reason you want to increase the risk your children will be hurt? Scott — |     "May you live in interesting times"     |

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I agree with you WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!! I just was discussing this with a pen-pal of mine, who is against spanking at any cost, but she could see my point of view. If its a life or death situation there is no second chance to see if they got the message by a time-out or redirection the first time. Ill take my chances. I wont take theirs. -Kristina

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I note that in the animal world a mother will swat her cub when it insists on playing next to a cliff or goes sniffing towards some life threatening animal or natural phenomenon. The ONLY time I have spanked is when I have exhausted the "time-outs", explanations, and warnings involved with DANGEROUS SITUATIONS.  Running into traffic while loaded with groceries after your child is one example.  I feel that a swat is better than a squashed little body.  Perhaps you non spanking parents feel it is all right for the child to learn about the dangerous things in their world by being bit by 120 volts of electricity while visiting grandmother’s house which has no electric covers, or maybe climbing on top of that six foot cabinet, only to fall, will teach them better than a swat.  Maybe you can keep your children locked away so that they never encounter a "strange person", or any of a number of dangerous everyday things. I do not swat because of any anger or fire inside that says "punish because it will make you feel good"; I consider such feelings as evil and simply "revenge".  Our society certainly condones corporal punishment and "that’l larn ‘em" revenge. I have always felt bad about spanking, but I feel it is sometimes necessary until the child is old enough to understand reasoning and the whys of how the world works. If the child knows you love them, and it was for their wefare that you spanked, and the spanking was far less the evil than what might have happened, I’d go for it.  Beatings are riduculous. Many parents were beat as children.  It is when you look into the eyes of the adult and see that they are enjoying punishing you, then that feeling can be passed on to the child, and it is simply an evil thing that has been put into the child and passed from one generation to another. — Ngo-Go

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> before anyone tells me to take my thread to Alt.paranting.spanking let me > say that I cannot gfet that group here in Nanaimo. If someone would be > good enough to tell me how to subscribe to it I will take things there. > Jon

Exactly! Thanks Jon– I can’t get to it either!

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before anyone tells me to take my thread to Alt.paranting.spanking let me say that I cannot gfet that group here in Nanaimo. If someone would be good enough to tell me how to subscribe to it I will take things there. Jon

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>*** >***Just a hypothetical scenario for those parents who spank occasionally, not >***in anger and not hard enough to hurt: >*** >***If your young child hit one of his/her peers and you admonished him/her >***for his/her action and he/she said to you, "well, I wasn’t angry when i >***hit the kid and i didn’t hit him very hard," would you find that >***acceptable?

Children or adults for the most part don’t hit others when NOT angry, in those circunstances the hitting or urge to comes from the situation the child or adult is in. In a disapline situation it’s diff… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->*** >***Wondering, >*** >***Alexis >***

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Just a hypothetical scenario for those parents who spank occasionally, not in anger and not hard enough to hurt: If your young child hit one of his/her peers and you admonished him/her for his/her action and he/she said to you, "well, I wasn’t angry when i hit the kid and i didn’t hit him very hard," would you find that acceptable? Wondering, Alexis

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I totally agree.  I address disciplinary subjects with reasoning.  My daughter responds incredibly well to that.  Explaining things in simple words and giving examples so she can understand can be tough though. I have to check her understanding by getting her to repeat back to me what I said and what she thinks it means and why.  But its worth it.  When I really get through to her, she never does it again and even corrects me when I screw up.  When I don’t really get through to her, she spends a lot of time in time out until I can figure out better explanations.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think spanking is ineffective and can cause emotional damage to the child. > There are WAY too many effective ways of dealing with children without > resorting to a quick fix like spanking.  Spanking appears to work because it > often causes a child to discontinue an undesirable behavior.  The problem is > that it teaches them nothing except how to avoid punishment.  They don’t learn > anything about WHY they shouldn’t do what they’ve done and taken the focus off > of thinking about what they did and how to change and put it on being punished. > I quit spanking over 6 years ago and was amazed at how much my child’s behavior > improved. > Kris

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alt.parenting.solutions,"Janet Schwinn" >Careful, luv.

HEY!  Are you one of them Limeys? I never woulda guessed.  After all, most British babes are ugly. Nice to see exceptions. Glen (I’ve got my own shovel, thanks) Appleby — Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

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I suppose I could be offended, if I weren’t such a true-blooded American patriot … But … um … let’s see now:  Germans, Jews, ??? [I've forgotten] and now the Brits.  Are you having a bad week … er … honeypie? –Janet Elliot, Hanna, Connor  (10/21/96)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > alt.parenting.solutions,"Janet Schwinn" >Careful, luv. > HEY!  Are you one of them Limeys? > I never woulda guessed.  After all, most British babes are ugly. > Nice to see exceptions. > Glen (I’ve got my own shovel, thanks) Appleby > — > Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. > It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

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alt.parenting.solutions,"Janet Schwinn" >But … um … let’s see now:  Germans, Jews, ??? [I've forgotten] and now >the Brits.  Are you having a bad week … er … honeypie?

Did I pick on Germans and Jews at some point? Well, if I did (I’m sure there was no more seriousness attached to that than this "attack" on the British) I have forgotten. Bad week?  Heck no!   I actually got laid this week. Glen (but don’t tell Kathy, k?) Appleby — Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

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Just teasing you — it was a Hitler joke.  Something about "juice" ??? Maybe your memory for jokes is as bad as mine … –Janet Elliot, Hanna, Connor  (10/21/96)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > alt.parenting.solutions,"Janet Schwinn" >But … um … let’s see now:  Germans, Jews, ??? [I've forgotten] and now >the Brits.  Are you having a bad week … er … honeypie? > Did I pick on Germans and Jews at some point? > Well, if I did (I’m sure there was no more seriousness attached > to that than this "attack" on the British) I have forgotten. > Bad week?  Heck no! > I actually got laid this week. > Glen (but don’t tell Kathy, k?) Appleby > — > Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. > It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

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alt.parenting.solutions,"Janet Schwinn" >Just teasing you — it was a Hitler joke.  Something about "juice" ???

Ahhhh.  I thought that you were suggesting that I had said something *offensive*. >Maybe your memory for jokes is as bad as mine …

To paraphrase: Come in, Sit down, Relax, Converse. My memory isn’t always this bad. Sometimes it’s even worse. I don’t even try to remember my jokes.  I figure that they are all throwaways. In fact, if someone wants to take one of my jokes, wait a week, then give it back to me, I’ll laugh like crazy. Glen (because I am, of course) Appleby — Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

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It’s interesting that in most of Europe it’s actually illegal to spank a child.  Says something about how it’s not a particularly good activity to be persuing. Robert Davidson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I was just wondering what everyone thinks of spanking a child?   What kind > of punishments do you all use?

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> It’s interesting that in most of Europe it’s actually illegal to spank a > child.  Says something about how it’s not a particularly good activity to be > persuing.

And here in the US, jaywalking is illegal.   While I’m not a proponent of spanking, I don’t think I’ll let the government do my thinking for me.  I prefer to use my own head to make my decisions. Take Care! Vicki Surratt Proud Mom of Kathy (6) and Jenny (9)! Visit my website!  http://www.vickishome.com Home of the Newsgroup Photo Album!

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I think spanking is ineffective and can cause emotional damage to the child. There are WAY too many effective ways of dealing with children without resorting to a quick fix like spanking.  Spanking appears to work because it often causes a child to discontinue an undesirable behavior.  The problem is that it teaches them nothing except how to avoid punishment.  They don’t learn anything about WHY they shouldn’t do what they’ve done and taken the focus off of thinking about what they did and how to change and put it on being punished. I quit spanking over 6 years ago and was amazed at how much my child’s behavior improved. Kris

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> It’s interesting that in most of Europe it’s actually illegal to spank a > child.

Not true. — Johnny Deadman

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What I was raising was the issue that for a large number of governments to take it so seriously, it would seem likely that there is a lot of evidence that it’s not such a good practice (and pediatric societies in Australia and Europe are virtually unanimous on this).  Jaywalking is illegal because it’s a pest to motorists and pretty dangerous – the fines aren’t too bad for it.  Spanking is illegal because it’s considered a violation of the child’s rights, and a form of assault.  So while you may like to make your own decisions, the society also has a right to protect its members if you decide to attack them. Robert Davidson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It’s interesting that in most of Europe it’s actually illegal to spank a > child.  Says something about how it’s not a particularly good activity to be > persuing. > And here in the US, jaywalking is illegal. > While I’m not a proponent of spanking, I don’t think I’ll let the > government do my thinking for me.  I prefer to use my own head to make > my decisions. > Take Care! > Vicki Surratt > Proud Mom of Kathy (6) and Jenny (9)! > Visit my website!  http://www.vickishome.com > Home of the Newsgroup Photo Album!

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Oh yes it is true – check it out and see for yourself.  Sweden has special taskforces to send social workers to those who spank, and parents in this situation are required by law to work with the social workers.  Similar systems obtain in Germany, France, Switzerland, Holland, Norway, Finland and many other countries.  Britain is the odd EC country out. Robert Davidson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It’s interesting that in most of Europe it’s actually illegal to spank a > child. > Not true. > — > Johnny Deadman

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alt.parenting.solutions,Robert Davidson >many other countries.  Britain is the odd EC country out.

Well, Britan is odd in so many respects, but we love ‘em, anyway. Glen (they gave us Monty Python) Appleby — Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

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Careful, luv. –Janet Elliot, Hanna, Connor  (10/21/96)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > alt.parenting.solutions,Robert Davidson >many other countries.  Britain is the odd EC country out. > Well, Britan is odd in so many respects, but we love ‘em, anyway. > Glen (they gave us Monty Python) Appleby > — > Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. > It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

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Allie, if you want to discuss this issue, you are welcome to come over to the flame wars in alt.parenting.spanking also whether you are for or against the practice you will get an earful in terms of those who are passionately involved on either side of the issue. Dorothy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I was just wondering what everyone thinks of spanking a child?   What kind >of punishments do you all use?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>I was just wondering what everyone thinks of spanking a child?   What kind >>>of punishments do you all use? >I guess I will answer then, if everyone is just telling how they cope with >things.  To be honest, I never thought there was anything wrong with a spank on >the butt.  I have spanked my children on minimal occasions, but have found >other ways of discipline that work just as well.  I felt a lot differently >before reading alot of posts in this NG, and I have tried a lot of advice given >in here and find that there are many other ways to cope with misbehavior. I >did find also that I felt less at blame when I didn’t result to spankings. I >used to feel bad after swatting on the butt although I felt they deserved it. >Now I find myself not feeling at blame.  This is just my experience.  I don’t >think that parents are bad for spanking if that’s how they choose to handle >some situations, although I say that while stressing only spankings….not >beatings! >Michelle….mommy of 3

I’m glad you said that, Michelle.  I have spanked my sons from time to time. Of course, the punishment at the time deserved a spanking.  You know, honestly I can’t remember what they did the last time to deserve a spanking. I think it was seriously mouthing off to me using a couple of curse words. After I spanked the son who did it, I asked him if he knew the reason I spanked him, and he told me it was because he cussed at me.  He’s never done it again. Other punishments work just as well.  My oldest son got bad grades on his report card last year (he had some F’s)  so I ground him from the Nintendo and certain favorite tv shows for a month and a half until mid-quarter grades came out.  He brought his grades up to all B’s and C’s in that time so I let him off the grounding.  His grades also stayed up for the remainder of the year and he even brought a couple of the C’s up to B’s.  I told him that if he came home with grades like that again, he would be grounded for an entire 9 weeks. Am I a bad parent because I choose to spank my sons from time to time?  No. I think I’m a good parent.  I haven’t had to spank my boys often and when I have had to, they know the reason why they got a swat.  And to be honest, I can’t remember  the last time I spanked my boys. Judy

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>>>I was just wondering what everyone thinks of spanking a child?   What kind >>of punishments do you all use?

I guess I will answer then, if everyone is just telling how they cope with things.  To be honest, I never thought there was anything wrong with a spank on the butt.  I have spanked my children on minimal occasions, but have found other ways of discipline that work just as well.  I felt a lot differently before reading alot of posts in this NG, and I have tried a lot of advice given in here and find that there are many other ways to cope with misbehavior.  I did find also that I felt less at blame when I didn’t result to spankings.  I used to feel bad after swatting on the butt although I felt they deserved it. Now I find myself not feeling at blame.  This is just my experience.  I don’t think that parents are bad for spanking if that’s how they choose to handle some situations, although I say that while stressing only spankings….not beatings! Michelle….mommy of 3

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Well, since you asked…. > I do not believe in spanking, as I believe it teaches children violence, and > the only way to solve problems is by hitting, spanking, etc. (And, they will > carry this into adulthood.) I make the punishment fit the crime. > I have a four-year-old daughter. I sometimes send her to her room. If we are > outside and she does something she is not supposed to do (such as go out into > the street) then she has to come back inside the house. If she doesn’t stay in > her bed at bedtime, and proceeds to get out for some reason 5, 6 or more times > a night, she has to go to bed earlier the next night. (This worked like a > charm. She no longer gets out of bed.) > Just some examples I am thinking of right off the bat. > Another reason not to spank….children are our most precious resources. There > are so many couples out there who would love to have children but can’t. So > many couples who have lost their children to death for one reason or another. > We still have our children. Surely there must be some other way to discipline > positively than to inflict pain on the little tykes we love so dearly. > Susan

Gee you just said everything I wanted to. i wouldn’t have said it so nicely. Well put.

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>I was just wondering what everyone thinks of spanking a child?   What kind >of punishments do you all use?

My children are already grown and I will admit to spanking my oldest exactly once (he ran into a street that was not busy, but he scared me and he was 18 months old).  After that experience in which I reacted out of my fear, I realized that spanking was not a teaching tool or a discipline tool, but a way for me as a parent to realize my frustration, fear and/or anger.  I decided then that I would find other ways to discipline and my children now 26 and 29 turned out quite well without it. I have developed as a teacher and parent throughout the last 29 years and truly believe that we can discipline children without the behaviorist punishment and reward system that is so prevalent today. I involved my children from the earliest ages in problem solving and talking about alternatives to behaviors that were unacceptable and found that even at 2 or 3, they could understand and reason.  They weren’t perfect and neither was I, but we viewed misbehavior and mistakes as opportunities to learn new ways of coping for the next time something happened. So the rules for me were:     Model the behavior you want your children to copy.     Always state your requests in positive language     When a problem occurs, involve your children in solving it     in ways that produce win-win solutions     Let your children OWN their behavior.  Whenever possible     allow them to experience the consequences of their actions     in the real world whether those cosequences are good or bad. Dorothy

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I didn’t say that I did, I am just curious what other people think. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I was just wondering what everyone thinks of spanking a child?   What kind >of punishments do you all use? >This is a bad subject to bring in this newsgroup…..especially, if you spank. >You are going to get an earfull. >Michelle…mommy of 3

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I have only cspanked my children when they need STRICT reinforcement of a dangerous situation.  Usuually when a parent hits its to vent their own frustrations.  I’ve found that time-out or taking away the nintendo or computer works quite well.

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I was just wondering what everyone thinks of spanking a child?   What kind of punishments do you all use?

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>I was just wondering what everyone thinks of spanking a child?   What kind >of punishments do you all use?

This is a bad subject to bring in this newsgroup…..especially, if you spank. You are going to get an earfull.   Michelle…mommy of 3

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Well, since you asked…. I do not believe in spanking, as I believe it teaches children violence, and the only way to solve problems is by hitting, spanking, etc. (And, they will carry this into adulthood.) I make the punishment fit the crime. I have a four-year-old daughter. I sometimes send her to her room. If we are outside and she does something she is not supposed to do (such as go out into the street) then she has to come back inside the house. If she doesn’t stay in her bed at bedtime, and proceeds to get out for some reason 5, 6 or more times a night, she has to go to bed earlier the next night. (This worked like a charm. She no longer gets out of bed.) Just some examples I am thinking of right off the bat. Another reason not to spank….children are our most precious resources. There are so many couples out there who would love to have children but can’t. So many couples who have lost their children to death for one reason or another. We still have our children. Surely there must be some other way to discipline positively than to inflict pain on the little tykes we love so dearly. Susan

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