Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This reminds me of a friend of mine. He told me that his father used to >beat (spank?) him when he was little. Now he’s a grown-up. He has kids >of his own. He doesn’t look like a neurotic, psychotic, schizophrenic >kind of person to me. He also beats his kids. As a last resort, of >course. >At current rate, I don’t beat my child either (nor is he ever spanked). So >your pleasant little generalization doesn’t fit. >And as for "beating", my parents spanked me twice in my whole life…a total >of three swats, if that. Where’s the scarring in that? It definitely >worked…I never stole anything again. >And suprisingly, my parents used that little number when ALL ELSE FAILED. >Hmm…all else failed…when everything they tried (several times)didn’t work. > That certainly does not make them abusers, nor does it qualify the two >spankings I recieved as a "beating". >Generalizations is what gets people into a ton of trouble…. >I guess if one learns that beating kids is OK, then they just pass it on >to their own kids. If one dosn’t think of beating children as a last >resort, or as a viable course of action, then they just may try a >little harder to think of other humane means of dealing with children. >Like kindness, and love, maybe. >Hey, my parents tried. That’s why I only ever was spanked twice. My parents >always supported me, in love, kindness, etc…..but whoops, they spanked me >twice…oh geez, I guess they’re abusive parents and I’m bound to be >one…guess I’d better go lock myself up. >There you go again…generalizing a beating with a spanking….seems you may >have encountered far more punishment in your lifetime than myself…. >After all, we’re just teaching them how to be and how to behave, and how >to treat others. If they are treated with love, they will learn it and >reflect it onto others, including their own children. If they are treated >with violence, they simply learn that too. Just think of that before you >decide to "spank" your child next time. >There you go again, assuming I’ve hit my child. Wrong my dear, I’ve never >touched him…except to pick him up and snuggle. So far, you’ve demonstrated >that you generalize things without finding out if the person you are >generalizing about has done anything….. >It’s people like that which make mountains out of molehills in everything they >do. >Regards, >Susan
Congratulations, Susan. Though you staunchily defend your parents right to have spanked you, you mention numerous times that you have not chosen to hit your own child. Though you do not criticize your parents for their choice of discipline, you have chosen to raise your child differently. By the way, no one said a child who is hit will definitely grow up to abuse their children…the evidence only says they are "more likely" to discipline the way they were disciplined. We continue to attempt to make distinctions between spanking and beating. The only difference is the severity. Evidence shows that the more severe the spanking, the more detrimental it can be to the child. This does not make hitting, whether it is harsh or mild, appropriate discipline.
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" >Sure hitting is hitting,but spanking is not assult just because it is >hitting. Spanking is a tool for parents to use when raising their >child,they may or may not need to use that tool,but it is there if >needed.
Ya and there are alot of "tools" available if needed. These "tools" may not be the best for the child, and my be abusive. A whip is a good tool, but I think that would be abusive don’t you?
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Path: castle.nando.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic .net!news.math.psu.edu!hudson.lm.com!ns.net-works.net!usenet > Newsgroups: alt.parenting.solutions > Organization: The Networks, Inc. > Lines: 13 > NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.217.195.5 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.1N (Windows; I; 16bit) >I have three great kids,no damage done to any of them from spanking,nor >was there ever a chance that there would be… > Well how do you know there is no damage done? How would you react if > someone were to "beat" you, and yes, it is the same thing.
That’s a ridiculous comparison…..spanking is by no means the same thing as beating. And yes I believe a parent can tell if damage has been done to their own children.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Path: castle.nando.net!news.sprintlink.net!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!xpat.postech.ac.kr !news.kreonet.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msune ws!netnews.upenn.edu!cronkite.ocis.temple.edu!VM.TEMPLE.EDU!V5371E > Newsgroups: alt.parenting.solutions > Organization: Temple University > Lines: 26 > NNTP-Posting-Host: vm.temple.edu >No, spanking is not an "assault" and I resent you insinuating that it >is. Most of us who spank do so only as a last resort and ALWAYS do it >as an act of discipline and not violence. I HATE to spank my children, >BUT sometimes IT IS NECESSARY. Sometimes other disciplinary measures >just won’t work. Sometimes the extent of the wrong committed by the >child is something that MUST require a discipline that makes sure that >the event will never occur again. (ie – playing with real gun, going >into street unattended, playing with an electrical outlet). These are >VERY serious infractions which place the child in enormous danger. They > PLAYING WITH A GUN???!! I think it is the parents’ responsibility to > make sure such dangerous situations can not occur!!! >MUST not be allowed to happen again and I submit that in MANY cases a >spanking is necessary when an event like this takes place. "Timeout" >would be a joke. Unless of course you enjoy the idea of finding your >child lying in the street because you failed to properly discipline >them. >Think about it >Dave Atkins
Those who think ’spanking is assault’ must not have been spanked as a child. My children get spanked when they KNOW what they are doing is not acceptable and they are just testing us to see if we’ll follow through with our spanking discipline. They would not do the unacceptable, on-purpose things they do if they thought we were ‘assaulting’ them. I was spanked as a child and remember doing things and thinking to myself "I know if I get caught I’m going to get a spanking" but did them anyway.
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>>I have three great kids,no damage done to any of them from spanking,nor >was there ever a chance that there would be… >Well how do you know there is no damage done? How would you react if >someone were to "beat" you, and yes, it is the same thing.
You know, my parents spanked me upon occassion as a child…and I haven’t turned out to be neurotic, psychotic, schizophrenic, or have a damaged psyche. The thing is, spanking is a viable course of action if there are no others that will work. Spanking only becomes a form of beating if it is used constantly, and goes beyond approximately 3 swats on the rear with an open hand. When things like coat hangers, spatulas, and the like start to get involved…then one can say "Hey, that’s a form of beating.". Otherwise, if used sparingly and only as a last resort…it fails to be an actual beating in the sense of the word. And tell me, if all other methods fail…what do you suggest…lock the kid in a closet or just let the authorities deal with him/her? A parent is responsible for his/her child…and for their actions…therefore, they should have the right to administer the punishment they feel is warranted (within reason of course) rather than have people outside of the family tell them how the child should be raised. Susan.
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> You know, my parents spanked me upon occassion as a child…and I haven’t > turned out to be neurotic, psychotic, schizophrenic, or have a damaged > psyche.
This reminds me of a friend of mine. He told me that his father used to beat (spank?) him when he was little. Now he’s a grown-up. He has kids of his own. He doesn’t look like a neurotic, psychotic, schizophrenic kind of person to me. He also beats his kids. As a last resort, of course. I guess if one learns that beating kids is OK, then they just pass it on to their own kids. If one dosn’t think of beating children as a last resort, or as a viable course of action, then they just may try a little harder to think of other humane means of dealing with children. Like kindness, and love, maybe. After all, we’re just teaching them how to be and how to behave, and how to treat others. If they are treated with love, they will learn it and reflect it onto others, including their own children. If they are treated with violence, they simply learn that too. Just think of that before you decide to "spank" your child next time. With regards Ali
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>This reminds me of a friend of mine. He told me that his father used to >beat (spank?) him when he was little. Now he’s a grown-up. He has kids >of his own. He doesn’t look like a neurotic, psychotic, schizophrenic >kind of person to me. He also beats his kids. As a last resort, of >course.
At current rate, I don’t beat my child either (nor is he ever spanked). So your pleasant little generalization doesn’t fit. And as for "beating", my parents spanked me twice in my whole life…a total of three swats, if that. Where’s the scarring in that? It definitely worked…I never stole anything again. And suprisingly, my parents used that little number when ALL ELSE FAILED. Hmm…all else failed…when everything they tried (several times)didn’t work. That certainly does not make them abusers, nor does it qualify the two spankings I recieved as a "beating". Generalizations is what gets people into a ton of trouble…. >I guess if one learns that beating kids is OK, then they just pass it on >to their own kids. If one dosn’t think of beating children as a last >resort, or as a viable course of action, then they just may try a >little harder to think of other humane means of dealing with children. >Like kindness, and love, maybe.
Hey, my parents tried. That’s why I only ever was spanked twice. My parents always supported me, in love, kindness, etc…..but whoops, they spanked me twice…oh geez, I guess they’re abusive parents and I’m bound to be one…guess I’d better go lock myself up. There you go again…generalizing a beating with a spanking….seems you may have encountered far more punishment in your lifetime than myself…. >After all, we’re just teaching them how to be and how to behave, and how >to treat others. If they are treated with love, they will learn it and >reflect it onto others, including their own children. If they are treated >with violence, they simply learn that too. Just think of that before you >decide to "spank" your child next time.
There you go again, assuming I’ve hit my child. Wrong my dear, I’ve never touched him…except to pick him up and snuggle. So far, you’ve demonstrated that you generalize things without finding out if the person you are generalizing about has done anything….. It’s people like that which make mountains out of molehills in everything they do. Regards, Susan
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Consequences for actions Randy: children without a (final resort) authority in their lives are out of control. Just because "Mom or Dad says so" —or it’s good or right: is very weak. Children that are disciplined "In Love" with lots of restoration and unconditional love: grow into adults with values and self-control. That "Love" may include a "rare" but sometimes needed LoveSwat…..of life….JJ
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> If you have >no data, you have no point unless I accept your reasoning.
Refusal to accept anecdotal evidence commonly occurs among people who have decided an issue and are not willing to debate it, preferring to attempt to force their viewpoints on others…. Of course this is a statement based on anecdotal evidence, without a study to back it, so it’s no doubt false…. I asked how many kids you have because you’re so zealous I wondered if you were speaking from theory or experience. My apologies; the question was inopportune. I have a son, age 2 and a half. Kyle
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>And changing a diaper is molestation.
You’re right. My God, I hadn’t thought of it… You’re looking at your baby’s genitals and touching them under (eek) the guise of washing them! Call the cops! Kyle
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Marilyn: >I offer a simple experiment review the posts of the ICR >(Ivan, Randy and Chris) ask yourself the simple question, >would I want my children to grow up like that? If the >answer is no, why take their advice on parenting your >children.
Actually, when I read posts by Chris, I _do_ want my children to grow up like that (I have no children & never will have them either, but that is just a minor detail 
) And, as is abundantly clear, Chris has been spanked quite a bit. In fact _most_ of the people I admire tremendously have been abused in their childhood, or something close to it. I wonder whether this is an argument _in favor_ of spanking. Probably. Witness
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writes: >It’s amazing how many people act as though they were the keeper or conscience >of these >newsgroups.
Heather, you’re one of the biggest browbeaters around. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Kyle
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>> Much of criminal child abuse is "spanking" that has >escalated to serious, physically damaging assault. >Denyal of privaleges leading to locking a child in a closet for days on >end is just as reprehensable, and just as much abuse. Don’t you think?
I don’t know of a connection between your two examples, but would be interested in the data you have that shows *any* relationship, one with the other. >This is like saying that smoking a joint leads to heroin addction –
No it is not. It is like saying that (1) child abusers most often love their children and want them to behave in socially acceptable ways (similar to you?). (2)They spank, which is a violent treatment of children and used when the parent is angry, frustrated, or, for whatever reason, decides that the child "deserves" to be hit (any similarity to you?). The difference is only in degree of physical damage and horror illicited in the observors. – if there’s a predisposition on the part of the adult to abuse, any first step will start the process going. Any of us; me and you and every other parent is predisposed to abuse. If you think yourself incapable or not predisposed, then I’d say you had *never* lost your temper or were in denial. Sanctioning any kind of violence is a dangerous thing to do. It is very easy for dangerous things to get out of control. >Whether the abuse is pysical or >psychological or a combination of the two makes no difference. >There are lots of abused, scarred children who don’t have a bruise to show >for it.
This deplorable possibility makes you feel safe? Randy Cox The NoSpan King Page http://www.cei.net/~rcox/nospan.html
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>>>Denyal of privaleges leading to locking a child in a closet for days on >>end is just as reprehensable, and just as much abuse. Don’t you think? >I don’t know of a connection between your two examples, but would be >interested in the data you have that shows *any* relationship, one >with the other. >I was saying child abuse takes many forms; I don’t think anyone can deny >that. Nor is it necessary to have a study with lots of data to prove my >point. How many kids do you have?
Do you find some comfort, then, in spanking being only one of many forms of abuse? Is there something redeeming about committing only one or just a few of the many forms? Put up or shut up. If you have no data, you have no point unless I accept your reasoning. I don’t. Two great kids, 6 and 13. You? What *is* your point? Randy Cox The NoSpan King Page http://www.cei.net/~rcox/nospan.html
Response:
> Much of criminal child abuse is "spanking" that has >escalated to serious, physically damaging assault.
Denyal of privaleges leading to locking a child in a closet for days on end is just as reprehensable, and just as much abuse. Don’t you think? This is like saying that smoking a joint leads to heroin addction — if there’s a predisposition on the part of the adult to abuse, any first step will start the process going. Whether the abuse is pysical or psychological or a combination of the two makes no difference. There are lots of abused, scarred children who don’t have a bruise to show for it. Kyle
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>I’m sorry, Heather. You are just lumping too much into your basket-case >description of abuse. >I would say "spare the rod, spoil the child", but you would probably label >me some religious fanatic. Relax, and think about things for a bit. Study >the differences between dicipline and abuse. There ARE differences.
I feel no compuction at all in saying "spare the rod, spoil the child"… I’d like to point out that in biblical times the "rod" referred to is NOT one to be used for spanking. It refers to a shepherd’s staff – which is used for GUIDANCE. If a child doesn’t receive that guidance he/she receives the message that their parent’s simply don’t care…. Make good use of that rod and if it does happen to include a few swats – so be it! IMHO a few timely swats on the rear NOW is preferable to losing your child to DRUGS, GANGS, PRISON, OR EVEN DEATH later! I think Ben gave very good advice! Good Luck! ;) Katt
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right on! dad
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Assault is a legal term. What constitutes an assault varies from community to community. I know of no American community in which a spanking is legally an assault. While many social workers may believe it is and use the ignorance of the parents they investigate as a basis for controling the parents. When simple spanking goes to court in a contested proceeding where the parents have learned their rights and are willing to buck the establishment to enforce those rights the social workers invariably lose. I define simple spanking as a few blows to the covered buttocks which may leave temporary redness and soreness and an occasional bruise but does not present a risk of serious or prolonged injury. Marilyn
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Path: castle.nando.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!n ews.sprintlink.net!ren.cei.net!usenet > Newsgroups: alt.parenting.solutions > Organization: chaos > Lines: 48 > NNTP-Posting-Host: max1-11.cei.net > X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7 >Heather, >Please do me a favor? Read the book "Raising a Strong Willed Child" by Dr. >James Dobson. Not because I think you need it or anything. I really am >just interested in what you think about what he has to say. We can discuss >it when/if you finish it. Discussions are better if BOTH sides of the >story are allowed to be considered. > Know, too, that James Dobson is the primary reference for child > abusers. Much of criminal child abuse is "spanking" that has > escalated to serious, physically damaging assault. Anyone > who permits, encourages, recommends, or supports hitting children > gives aid and support to parents who are (or will be) seriously, > physically and emotionally damaging their children for life. > These child abusers like to think that they are doing no more > harm than any other parent and find sanction and permission to > committ their dangerous assault on children in the supportive > comments of other "spanking" parents and mercenary crowd-pleasers > like Dobson. > Every well-stocked book shop is a source of good, bad and > indifferent advice on the topic of child rearing. Parents can > learn 1,001 alternatives to spanking, the best of which add up > to DON’T. There are even a few authors – the most cynical and > dangerous of all – who will ease parents’ troubled consciences > for the price of a book by advising them that spanking is OK and > when and how to do it. I urge the reader to approach this body > of literature with unrelenting skepticism. Keep in mind, any > expert who claims to have a method for bringing up children that > makes the job easy and exempts parents from the awesome personal > responsibility of the undertaking is a quack, a pitchman under a > tent, a peddler of candy. > The reader can obtain a free copy of the informative 8-page > booklet _Plain Talk about Spanking_ by writing to Parents and > Teachers Against Violence in Education (PTAVE), P.O. Box 1033, > your "snail mail" address. Specify English or Spanish edition > when requesting. "On the Web" at: www.cei.net/~rcox/nospan.html > Randy Cox > The NoSpan King Page > http://www.cei.net/~rcox/nospan.html
Dr. Dobson books go hand and hand with the Bible and it’s teachings. This is why spanking is not abuse.
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<H>Let’s be honest.Spanking is assault, pure and simple. And it is <H>perpetrated against innocent victims. How can a child defend <H>him/herself? They have no rights it seems. At least adults have legal <H>recourse when physically attacked. Why are people so afraid to say that <H>they’re "morally" opposed to spanking. It’s immoral and should be <H>against the law. I think the word "spanking" is used to make the assault <H>seem acceptable, benign. It’s such a cute word…it’s a lot harder to <H>discipline one’s child without getting physical. I’m a mother with a <H>young son and it saddens me to think of any child being abused. No, spanking is not an "assault" and I resent you insinuating that it is. Most of us who spank do so only as a last resort and ALWAYS do it as an act of discipline and not violence. I HATE to spank my children, BUT sometimes IT IS NECESSARY. Sometimes other disciplinary measures just won’t work. Sometimes the extent of the wrong committed by the child is something that MUST require a discipline that makes sure that the event will never occur again. (ie – playing with real gun, going into street unattended, playing with an electrical outlet). These are VERY serious infractions which place the child in enormous danger. They MUST not be allowed to happen again and I submit that in MANY cases a spanking is necessary when an event like this takes place. "Timeout" would be a joke. Unless of course you enjoy the idea of finding your child lying in the street because you failed to properly discipline them. Think about it Dave Atkins
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Heather, Please do me a favor? Read the book "Raising a Strong Willed Child" by Dr. James Dobson. Not because I think you need it or anything. I really am just interested in what you think about what he has to say. We can discuss it when/if you finish it. Discussions are better if BOTH sides of the story are allowed to be considered. It is obvious you are very well read and have done your research. And in some aspects, I am sure most people (read caring adult parents) might agree with some of your opinions and "feelings". But what tends to worry many good parents are grand generalizations that could lead to laws created by good intentioned people that turn average people into criminals. You need to be a little less pragmatic and emphatic about what is abuse and what might be a proper, restrained response to a strong willed child. BTW: I have a 2 year old daughter and haven’t ’spanked’ her yet. I don’t really expect to. I assume I will, though, if needed. But I hope she will always know what NO is. I DO respect the fact that some kids need different stimuli than others. There is a great story in Dobson’s book about a boy, who was very disruptive at a dinner out at a restraunt. Finally, after a couple of warnings, the father took the child out to the car for a little reminder that the child was going over the line as far as respect for the family and others in the restraunt. He started spanking the boy when a nosy woman (who had followed them out to the car) started SCREAMING at the top of her lungs. Stop beating that child… I’m going to call the police… Abuse! Abuse! Etc… The spanking stopped as both the father and little boy stared in disbelief at the woman, throwing a tantrum in the parking lot. The boy looked at his father and asked, "Dad, what’s wrong with her?" The point (besides mind your own business) is that punisment given because you love someone helps the person to know you love them and learn that there are some things in this life that need respect, or there are consequences. The boy knew he was in trouble. If he didn’t get a response from Dad (doing what he said he was going to do, etc.) the boy would start to lose respect for his father and maybe not listen to him the next time. …. I know I’m rambling, so I’ll call it quits today. It’s too cold here in Indiana and my fingers are freezing! :-) My daughter and I will go play now. Have a great day everyone! Ben (Father of Jessica)
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…. >Is a couple swats to the rump really abuse? What if your child directly >ignored your request, yea, demand that they not run into the street? I >would much rather them learn a lesson via a sore bottom (listen to your >parents for they are wise and know that cars are dangerous) than by >learning a hard lesson from under the tires of a car. >….
Spanking… increases the rate of street entries by children, wrote Dr. Dennis Embry in a letter to _Children Magazine_ "Since 1977 I have been heading up the only long-term project designed to counteract pedestrian accidents to preschool-aged children. (Surprisingly, getting struck by a car is about the third leading cause of death to young children in the United States.)" "Actual observation of parents and children shows that spanking, scolding, reprimanding and nagging INCREASES the rate of street entries by children. Children use going into the street as a near-perfect way to gain parents’ attention." "Now there is a promising new educational intervention program, called Safe Playing. The underlying principles of the program are simple: 1. Define safe boundaries in a POSITIVE way. "Safe players play on the grass or sidewalk." 2. Give stickers for safe play. That makes it more fun than playing dangerously. 3. Praise your child for safe play." "These three principles have an almost instant effect on increasing safe play. We have observed children who had been spanked many times a day for going into the street, yet they continued to do it. The moment the family began giving stickers and praise for safe play, the children stopped going into the street. Dennis D. Embry, Ph.D. University of Kansas Lawrence Kansas" Principle #1 may be particularly important in light of the fact that some young toddlers may not be able to comprehend negations yet. Hence, when the parent says, "Don’t eat out of the catfood dish!" "Don’t jump on furniture!" "Don’t go into the street!" the toddler hears, "Eat out of the catfood dish! Jump on the furniture! Go into the street!" Principle #3 can easily be integrated into a parental habit of "catching them being Good." Too often, parents only notice when their child is behaving unacceptably. Children are trying to learn how to be a person and a member of their native culture. Letting them know when they are succeeding can help them immeasurably on their developmental journey. Chris (in a post to the Usenet newsgroup: alt.parenting.spanking)
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