Pure Parents

Question:

> Heidi, > Non-spanking and permissive are NOT synonyms. LaVonne does not strike me > as a permissive parent and I can assure you that I am not. I am quite > strict and have rules which must not be broken. I don’t need to spank to > ensure my childs good behavior. > -Alexis

That is great that you do not ‘need to spank to ensure your childs good behavior’.  What DO you need to do to ensure your child’s good behavior? Do you put him/her in time out?  Do you revoke privileges?  I am sure you do *something* to ‘ensure your child’s good behavior’ (I would hope you do, anyway!), and whatever it is that you do, is YOUR choice.  Spanking (not "hitting, beating, smacking", I said ***spanking***)  your child is YOUR choice to decide how YOU want to "ENSURE YOUR CHILD’S GOOD BEHAVIOR".  I don’t think you realize what you are saying half the time.  *****GOOD FOR YOU THAT YOU DO NOT SPANK.  SOME PARENTS DO.  GOOD FOR THEM.  LET PEOPLE LIVE THEIR LIVES AND LEAVE THEM ALONE, DO NOT FORCE *YOUR* Thank You! Bunnie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Competence has nothing to do with who can legally be hit.  That > criteria is based solely on chronological age.  Less competent adults > may not be hit (mentally handicapped, for example), only less > competent children. > Yup, that’s the way life is. We can do many things to/for children that > we can’t do to/for adults. > > Lack of competence justifies DISCIPLINE. My child does not always > > understand why she must do something, or why it is wrong to do something. > > Sometimes punishment is necessary to compel her to do something very > > important, or to convince her that doing something bad is unacceptable. > We aren’t discussing discipline or lack thereof.  We are talking about > hitting little children in the name of discipline.

Lavonne, once again you amaze me.  Have you read anything about physiology?  Comparing children with mentally handicapped adults is like comparing fruit and vegetables.  Comparing children with adults is like apples with oranges.  They are NOT the same! Children are NOT miniature adults.   Their LOGIC is different because of their lack of experience and mis-associations.  They ARE capable of learning.  Children CANNOT be compared to mentally handicapped adults or alzeimers patience,etc because of neural/chemical differences.  This is not to say that people with these "abilities" can’t learn.  Sure they can.  But they have neural/chemical imbalances that PREVENT them from processing information correctly in many circumstances.  And to say that they should be spanked for a physical disability is ridiculous!  This IS NOT the same as a child’s willful disobedience.  But if a child with Down’s PURPOSEFULLY misbehaves of course their should be disciplinary action.  And of course alternative methods would be first choices.  But spanking is still valid if nothing else works. Children WANT to test the limits.  They WANT to find out who’s in charge and what the consequences are. Children NEED to experience immediate consequences for some actions.  If their logic is not developed enough to foresee the future "natural" consequences that are not immediate then they need an "unnatural" consequence.  Some actions cannot be ignored.  No parent spanks for the sake of spanking.  That’s just stupid.  BEFORE I had children it was my intention to never use spanking because I thought like you did.  Then I studied, became educated, and actually experienced parenthood.  In short, I got smart and GREW UP!  The children that I have seen (hundreds, thank you, without exaggerating) whose parents have been as permissive as you appear to be have children who are brats, unpleasant to be around, have few friends,  children run the household treating the parents like garbage.  Those I know who have grown up have had major obstacles in their teens and difficult young adult hoods once they have experienced the real world that does punish for bad behavior. Heidi  

Response:

> Lavonne, once again you amaze me.  Have you read anything about physiology?

A great deal, along with psychology, education, educational psychology and child development. >  Comparing children with mentally handicapped adults is like comparing > fruit and vegetables.  Comparing children with adults is like apples with > oranges.  They are NOT the same!

No — children are legally hittable — adults are not.   In the US, once an individual reaches the chronological age of adulthood, corporal punishment is illegal.  The sole determinant of who is hittable is chronological age.  I know of no other instance where this is true, do you? > Children are NOT miniature adults.   Their LOGIC is different because of > their lack of experience and mis-associations.

Is their logic different from a mentally handicapped adult with a mental age of, let’s say, 5 years?   They ARE capable of > learning.  Children CANNOT be compared to mentally handicapped adults or > alzeimers patience,etc because of neural/chemical differences.

Mentally handicapped adults are capable of learning.  You and I are capable of learning.  Children are capable of learning.  Yet, children remain the only legally hittable members of society.   This is not > to say that people with these "abilities" can’t learn.  Sure they can.  But > they have neural/chemical imbalances that PREVENT them from processing > information correctly in many circumstances.

Children’s developmental levels prevent them from processing information in the same way as many adults.  Mentally handicapped individuals process information in much the same way as a child with   similar mental age.  Yet we cannot subject the adult to corporal punishment.   And to say that they should > be spanked for a physical disability is ridiculous!

I never said this.  I do not believe anyone should be subjected to corporal punishment, adults or children.   This IS NOT the same > as a child’s willful disobedience.  But if a child with Down’s PURPOSEFULLY > misbehaves of course their should be disciplinary action.

Disciplinary action is valid for all individuals.  What we are discussing here is the disciplinary action of hitting in the name of discipline.   And of course > alternative methods would be first choices.  But spanking is still valid if > nothing else works.

But only for children — because children are legally hittable.  For the adult with a mental age of 4, 5, or 6 — spanking is not valid.   Why?  It’s illegal.  We protect adults from all acts of corporal punishment.  Children WANT to test the limits.  They WANT to find > out who’s in charge and what the consequences are. Children NEED to > experience immediate consequences for some actions.

Of course children test limits.  Of course children need to know a responsible adult is in charge.  What does this have to do with hitting them?  We teach and prepare them for responsible adulthood, where being subjected to  corporal punishment is an illegal consequence, by subjecting them to corporal punishment as  a consequence when they are children?  This makes no sene.   If their logic is not > developed enough to foresee the future "natural" consequences that are not > immediate then they need an "unnatural" consequence.

Natural consequence is the result of an action with no intervention whatsoever.  Your use of "unnatural" consequence is not a consequence at all — it is physical punishment.     Some actions cannot > be ignored.

No, some actions cannot be ignored.  There are a myriad of strategies that include neither ignoring nor hitting. >  No parent spanks for the sake of spanking.  That’s just stupid.  BEFORE I > had children it was my intention to never use spanking because I thought > like you did.  Then I studied, became educated, and actually experienced > parenthood.  In short, I got smart and GREW UP!

Before I raised children, I intended never to hit them.  Then I studied and became educated, earned an undergraduate degree in child development, a Master’s degree in special education and a Ph.D. in Early Childhood/Child Development, with a minor in Educational Psychology.  And I learned through education and experience raising children that my early inclinations were correct — hitting is not necessary nor justifiable in raising children.   The children that I have > seen (hundreds, thank you, without exaggerating) whose parents have been as > permissive as you appear to be have children who are brats, unpleasant to > be around, have few friends,  children run the household treating the > parents like garbage.  Those I know who have grown up have had major > obstacles in their teens and difficult young adult hoods once they have > experienced the real world that does punish for bad behavior.

It’s unfortunate that you do not appear to understand the difference between authoritative and permissive parenting.  I am not permissive, but I understand enough about child development, and respect children enough, to never raise my hand and strike their bodies in the name of discipline. LaVonne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Heidi

Response: