Question:
And people wonder why there are kids shooting up schools…Since when did this touchy-feely way of disciplining your kids work? More violent crimes by kids than ever before….Give it up, doc spock was wrong.
—>:|> —>:|> —>:|> I was suprised to learn that the WAUSAU HERALD did not cover the —>:|> trial Marathon County of Walt Hornik, a father accused of physically abusing —>:|> his daughter during the course of disciplinary action taken against her —>:|> because of her verbally abusive behavior toward him when requested to perform —>:|> a simple household chore. —>:|snip —>:|> —>:|> It would seem to me that if Marathon County and perhaps the rest of Wisconsin —>:|> is plagued with this kind of litigation against parents who are simply trying —>:|> to discipline their children that a serious social problem exists. That —>:|> problem is the inability of the state to properly distinguish between genuine —>:|> physical abuse of a child and the occasional physical reminder that a child —>:|> might need from time to time for his or her own well-being. —>:|> —>:|> snip —>:| The State of Wisconsin will attempt to jail them on the —>:|charge of —>:|> physically abusing a child should physical discipline be attempted. —>:| —>:|I distinctly remember men saying the same thing about —>:|"disciplining" their wives twenty years ago. —>:| —>:|You may not like it, but in Wisconsin you can’t hit people to —>:|get your own way.
Response:
> And people wonder why there are kids shooting up schools…Since when > did this touchy-feely way of disciplining your kids work? More > violent crimes by kids than ever before.
I don’t know if corporal punishment works or not (I can see the arguments on both sides), but do you have evidence that the specific kids who are committing these horrible crimes are the same ones who are not physically disciplined? — Linda I wish the buck stopped here. I could use a few.
Response:
> And people wonder why there are kids shooting up schools…Since when > did this touchy-feely way of disciplining your kids work? More > violent crimes by kids than ever before….Give it up, doc spock was > wrong.
Even Dr. Spock admitted he was wrong in later years!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> –
Response:
I THink you are absoulutely correct Linda. The majority of kids who act viloently were acted UPON violently themselves..And as to the first posters suggestion that there is more violent crime by kids than ever…It really isn’t that significant statistically…VIolent crimes among youth is only at 1% of the total of all crimes..THere are only a "few" kids who are doing this..OF course, this does nto minimize the impact on the victims but there are definitely more pressing concerns than coming down "hard" on theyoung offenders..(Ironically, that may just be the thing that pushes them on to worse acts..) CHeers, C – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> And people wonder why there are kids shooting up schools…Since when > did this touchy-feely way of disciplining your kids work? More > violent crimes by kids than ever before. > I don’t know if corporal punishment works or not (I can see the > arguments on both sides), but do you have evidence that the specific > kids who are committing these horrible crimes are the same ones who are > not physically disciplined? > — > Linda > I wish the buck stopped here. I could use a few.
Response:
"Even Dr. Spock admitted he was wrong in later years!!!!" Yah, but I think you got it backwards..He admitted he was wrong for his early "spare the rod, spoil the child philosophy..C
Response:
> > And people wonder why there are kids shooting up schools…Since when > did this touchy-feely way of disciplining your kids work? More > violent crimes by kids than ever before….Give it up, doc spock was > wrong. > Even Dr. Spock admitted he was wrong in later years!!!!
He did? Can you provide a reference to support this claim? Bill
Response:
> I THink you are absoulutely correct Linda.
I will third that – good question you proposed, Linda. > The majority of kids who act > viloently were acted UPON violently themselves.
And might I point out that, to the contrary, "touchy-feely" lovingness towards children is in fact *necessary* to raise empathetic, compassionate adults. Children who do not learn to bond to other human beings do not see others as being human, the first step towards the commission of violent crime. This theory does pass Linda’s test; there is ample evidence to demonstrate its truth. >.And as to the first > posters suggestion that there is more violent crime by kids than ever…It > really isn’t that significant statistically…VIolent crimes among youth > is only at 1% of the total of all crimes..THere are only a "few" kids who > are doing this.
Right again. Another example of the news making things seem bigger than they really are. Never forget, the news reporst the sensational – if it were common, by definition, it wouldn’t be news. You only hear about the plane that crashes, not the thousands that take off and land safely every day. Mike — From Seattle, WA – Seahawks, cinema, science and more at http://kohary.simplenet.com Seahawks: http://kohary.simplenet.com/hawks.htm Cinema: http://kohary.simplenet.com/movies.htm Science: http://kohary.simplenet.com/science.htm
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I was suprised to learn that the WAUSAU HERALD did not cover the > trial Marathon County of Walt Hornik, a father accused of physically abusing > his daughter during the course of disciplinary action taken against her > because of her verbally abusive behavior toward him when requested to perform > a simple household chore. snip > It would seem to me that if Marathon County and perhaps the rest of Wisconsin > is plagued with this kind of litigation against parents who are simply trying > to discipline their children that a serious social problem exists. That > problem is the inability of the state to properly distinguish between genuine > physical abuse of a child and the occasional physical reminder that a child > might need from time to time for his or her own well-being. > snip
The State of Wisconsin will attempt to jail them on the charge of > physically abusing a child should physical discipline be attempted.
I distinctly remember men saying the same thing about "disciplining" their wives twenty years ago. You may not like it, but in Wisconsin you can’t hit people to get your own way.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was suprised to learn that the WAUSAU HERALD did not cover the > trial Marathon County of Walt Hornik, a father accused of physically abusing > his daughter during the course of disciplinary action taken against her > because of her verbally abusive behavior toward him when requested to perform > a simple household chore. > snip > It would seem to me that if Marathon County and perhaps the rest of Wisconsin > is plagued with this kind of litigation against parents who are simply trying > to discipline their children that a serious social problem exists. That > problem is the inability of the state to properly distinguish between genuine > physical abuse of a child and the occasional physical reminder that a child > might need from time to time for his or her own well-being. > snip > The State of Wisconsin will attempt to jail them on the > charge of > physically abusing a child should physical discipline be attempted. > I distinctly remember men saying the same thing about > "disciplining" their wives twenty years ago. > You may not like it, but in Wisconsin you can’t hit people to > get your own way.
that’s the problem with children right now. they have no discipline. when i was a child my parent’s spanked me when needed. there is a big difference in physical abuse and discipline. if we set more boundaries for our children america would probably not be in the state it is in as far as our youth are concerned. they are shooting eachother in school for no reason. youth violence is at an all time high. back when parents were allowed to discipline their children we didn’t have the youth violence that we have now. that should tell us something. hopefully we will wake up and realize that we have a big problem and that you can’t reason with a two year old. hopefully we will realize that before it is too late for our children! i don’t know what they do in wisconsin, but in texas i am going to raise my child exactly as my parent’s raised me. i haven’t had to spank him in a very long time, but that is because he knows what his boundaries are and that he is the child and i am the adult. i can honestly say if i told him to do something and he refused, he is fully aware that there are consequences to pay for every wrong action that is taken.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> May 18, 1998 > Editor > Letters > Wausau Herald > I was suprised to learn that the WAUSAU HERALD did not cover the > trial Marathon County of Walt Hornik, a father accused of physically abusing > his daughter during the course of disciplinary action taken against her > because of her verbally abusive behavior toward him when requested to perform > a simple household chore. The trial ended on May 15 with a mistrial because > the foreperson of the jury was suddenly taken ill at the conclusion of > deliberations. > I was also surprised to learn that there are so many of these trials > that the WAUSAU HERALD simply does not have the resources to cover them all. > It would seem to me that if Marathon County and perhaps the rest of Wisconsin > is plagued with this kind of litigation against parents who are simply trying > to discipline their children that a serious social problem exists. That > problem is the inability of the state to properly distinguish between genuine > physical abuse of a child and the occasional physical reminder that a child > might need from time to time for his or her own well-being. > It is my understanding that the State of Wisconsin through the office > of the District Attorney of Marathon County is engaged in a legal crusade > to deprive Mr. Hornik of his liberty for the next ten years which will
put his – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> family on public welfare. All this occurred because he felt that he had no > recourse but to use a mild form of physical discipline on his daughter. > Meanwhile parents are still responsible for the behavior of their > children. The State of Wisconsin will attempt to jail them on the charge of > physically abusing a child should physical discipline be attempted. This > is a crazy state of affairs that ought to have the attention of anyone who is > interested in good order in society. It would appear that the state prefers > to assume the role of parent either through the Department of Social > Services or the Department of Corrcctions. > But apparently there are more important matters deserving the > attention of the WAUSAU HERALD. I suppose it would be an > unthinkable for this newspaper and other media outlets to devote > some time to this subject. After all, it is only the future of our society > that is at stake – not to mention simple justice for the Walt Horniks of > this world. > Robert E. Nordlander > 333 Lopas Street > Menasha, WI 54952 > Telephone: 920 725 1864 > Posted by Robert E. Nordlander > To: alt.parenting.solutions, alt.support.step-parents, > alt.support.single-parents > May 19, 1998 > My blood ran cold reading this article to think things have come to the > point that children are more in control of what does and does not happen > than their parents. Laws and rules are written for a purpose and that > is to prevent chaos. I’m not saying someone should be allowed to beat > their child or verbally abuse them but geesh not do anything? What kind > of message do you think we are giving out children and why do we have 13 > year olds shooting each other? Maybe its because they have learned that > no one can do anything to them(or so they think)so they do what they > damm well please to get their way. > My sympathy to Walt Hornik and I have heard from other parents that > their kids have actually threaten to call the police if they are > disciplined. I’m sorry but if things ever got to that point here I think > a reality check for the child would be in store(like a visit to a Boys > or Girls home)to let them know if hey you won’t live by my rules > then…live by the states rules. Maybe Wisconsin would wake up when > they’d discover the over crowding from children out of control becuase > no one can touch them! > Pattie > PS My parents NEVER laid a hand on me..that was someplace I din’t want > to go or push them too and they were very loving people.
It’s hard make a judgement because neither the letter to the editor nor the reply indicate to what extent this girl was physically punished. I would like to see more info on this matter. Did this father spank her or did he beat the holy living hell out of her? Scout
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > May 18, 1998 > Editor > Letters > Wausau Herald > I was suprised to learn that the WAUSAU HERALD did not cover the > trial Marathon County of Walt Hornik, a father accused of physically abusing > his daughter during the course of disciplinary action taken against her > because of her verbally abusive behavior toward him when requested to perform > a simple household chore. The trial ended on May 15 with a mistrial because > the foreperson of the jury was suddenly taken ill at the conclusion of > deliberations. > I was also surprised to learn that there are so many of these trials > that the WAUSAU HERALD simply does not have the resources to cover them all. > It would seem to me that if Marathon County and perhaps the rest of Wisconsin > is plagued with this kind of litigation against parents who are simply trying > to discipline their children that a serious social problem exists. That > problem is the inability of the state to properly distinguish between genuine > physical abuse of a child and the occasional physical reminder that a child > might need from time to time for his or her own well-being. > It is my understanding that the State of Wisconsin through the office > of the District Attorney of Marathon County is engaged in a legal crusade > to deprive Mr. Hornik of his liberty for the next ten years which will put his > family on public welfare. All this occurred because he felt that he had no > recourse but to use a mild form of physical discipline on his daughter. > Meanwhile parents are still responsible for the behavior of their > children. The State of Wisconsin will attempt to jail them on the charge of > physically abusing a child should physical discipline be attempted. This > is a crazy state of affairs that ought to have the attention of anyone who is > interested in good order in society. It would appear that the state prefers > to assume the role of parent either through the Department of Social > Services or the Department of Corrcctions. > But apparently there are more important matters deserving the > attention of the WAUSAU HERALD. I suppose it would be an > unthinkable for this newspaper and other media outlets to devote > some time to this subject. After all, it is only the future of our society > that is at stake – not to mention simple justice for the Walt Horniks of > this world. > Robert E. Nordlander > 333 Lopas Street > Menasha, WI 54952 > Telephone: 920 725 1864 > Posted by Robert E. Nordlander > To: alt.parenting.solutions, alt.support.step-parents, > alt.support.single-parents > May 19, 1998
My blood ran cold reading this article to think things have come to the point that children are more in control of what does and does not happen than their parents. Laws and rules are written for a purpose and that is to prevent chaos. I’m not saying someone should be allowed to beat their child or verbally abuse them but geesh not do anything? What kind of message do you think we are giving out children and why do we have 13 year olds shooting each other? Maybe its because they have learned that no one can do anything to them(or so they think)so they do what they damm well please to get their way. My sympathy to Walt Hornik and I have heard from other parents that their kids have actually threaten to call the police if they are disciplined. I’m sorry but if things ever got to that point here I think a reality check for the child would be in store(like a visit to a Boys or Girls home)to let them know if hey you won’t live by my rules then…live by the states rules. Maybe Wisconsin would wake up when they’d discover the over crowding from children out of control becuase no one can touch them! Pattie PS My parents NEVER laid a hand on me..that was someplace I din’t want to go or push them too and they were very loving people.
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