Question:
>Spanking your child for discipline and hitting your child out of anger is two >totally different things, and don’t think the child doesn’t know that. I am >speaking out of experience (the child kind). I am glad my parents instilled a >sense of discipline in me, and I know that when I was younger (7 max) I received >spankings, not out of anger, but because I did something wrong and that was the >punishment. I get so sick of hearing about some kid threating to call the >police on their parents if the get hit, maybe the spanking should’ve started >sooner (in age). Back talking was not an option in my family, I knew that, I >learned that, and I never received another spanking after the age of 7. I know >that when I have children, they will listen, or receive a spanking. It’s as >simple as that. >Carmen
I see your point, and I do happen to see the benefit if spanking is completely restricted to nonagressive, non-overpowering discipline. But it can also show how it can be okay to be used, and what if the child gets the wrong idea and just uses it whenever when they become a parent? Unconscious parenting. My parents. I used to defend them, but now I can see they just hit me because they were mad about what I did, and justified it as discipline. No misinterpretations anymore – 15 years of therapy proved that. Barring the argument that ANY spanking can emotionally scar a child, the anti-spanking argument is "It’s easily misinterpreted and easily abused as a means of discipline, therefore, it’s safer to NOT use it at al." My 0.02. Thomas A. Ott http://www.geocities.com/heartland/5294 "All Things Are Possible Except Skiing Through A Revolving Door…" [My posting address has been changed 'cause I'm getting too much usenet junk mail - use the one in my sig!]
Response:
>Will you child-beaters please stop and listen to yourselves? The > preoccupation with hitting is ridiculous. Ask a few questions first like:
The post may be appreciated more if you tried not to call others derogatory names before you even begin to post some great information. >What is the problem? > Is the child two years old? Does (s)he run in front of cars? Can (s)he > understand language? Talk about it. Let him/her know your concern, your > fears for safety, that you don’t want to lose him/her.
Well… my son and I have discussed this. It’s when he tried it again and again, in spite of all the talking and removing and whatever, that a little more action was required. I’ve had similar situations where the child just would not relent. He heard what I said, he just wanted to do his own thing, and it was a dangerous activity. > Did (s)he eat a cookie just before dinner? Maybe (s)he felt desperate. > Little bodies need energy in spurts and have difficulty fitting into > adult schedules. provide fruit as a quick sugar lift that dissipates > quickly. The body will seek meat and vegetables, too.
That’s not a spankable offense, in my mind. I eat ‘em before dinner, myself! (Much of the time, we all share.) 
> Did (s)he ignore your instruction–any instruction? Are you sure that > (s)he understood it? Ask him/her to repeat what they understood. They > might be surpried. Ask them for their solutions. You might learn > something. Ask him/her how they feel–repeat–FEEL about it. You might > be enlightened.
Been there, done that. My son can talk circles around me. He knows how to manipulate Mommy. There are times he just wants to show me that he’s going to do his thing, and I can turn blue in the face from talking to him if I want to. He can say when he’s angry, we can talk about negatives. However, he can’t spit in my face, or any equivalent. It’s not permissable, nor is it wise. > Did you make them feel small? Hopeless? Bullied? Have they learned > that they can’t count on you as a support, a safety net? Have they > learned that you hit them to make yourself feel powerful? That you > hit when you can’t think of anything else? Is that what they are > going to do, too, when theiy’re disappointed?
No, No, No, No, No, and No. My son comes to me for comfort, for help, for praise, for support, for love, for a hug, to settle a dispute with the younger brother, for assistance with his projects, for a song, for a laugh, to vent his frustrations, and for whatever he thinks he needs from me. And yes, when he defies me, he knows what the penalty is for that, and he gets a spank. I feel quite weak when I have to do that, really, but I also think following through is important. My son and I actually have discussed the whole thing. He knows it’s not easy for me. I know you don’t see it that way, but the incidences of rebellion on his part are few and we always give him the benefit of the doubt. He’s a real smart child, and the younger one is just as bright – but probably a little more tenacious. I know I’m opening this up to criticism, but this is how these things are in our home. We apply the wisdom we have to each and every situation with our children, and always put in a lot of time with them, so we know them well, > It’s not easy being the primary trainer for new recruits to the human > race. Check with them–they have some good ideas, too. Kids actually > learn a lot in a very short time. They pride themselves on being > problem-solvers. Find out what they think. They really want to > please you, no matter how it seems. It’s much easier to work on > solutions with someone else. Two heads really can be better than one.
Yes, that’s true. And my children are wise for their ages. I do listen to them! But I never assume that my sons _know_ more, or are wiser than their parents. There’s a real danger in that. When they are older, they probably will surpass me in wisdom – hooray! That’ll be welcome! But the oldest isn’t even 4 yet, so we aren’t there yet. 
>Remember–if discipline doesn’t teach more appropriate behavior, it’s not >discipline. It’s punishment.
Yeah, I think that’s probably a true statement. I also think responses are better than reactions – think before you act. — maur Mom to Michael (10/01/92) and Matthew (02/17/95)
Response:
> Will you child-beaters please stop and listen to yourselves? The preoccupation > with hitting is ridiculous. Ask a few questions first like:
It is the anti-spankers who are pre-occupied with hitting. There is a difference between spanking and beating. We have said so often; which of us is not listening? > What is the problem? > Is the child two years old? Does (s)he run in front of cars? Can (s)he > understand language? Talk about it. Let him/her know your concern, your fears for > safety, that you don’t want to lose him/her.
I’m trying to figure out where you found a two year old so precocious as to understand any of such an explanation. I personally didn’t spank on that issue, and many of us wouldn’t. > Did (s)he eat a cookie just before dinner? Maybe (s)he felt desperate. Little > bodies need energy in spurts and have difficulty fitting into adult schedules. > provide fruit as a quick sugar lift that dissipates quickly. The body will seek > meat and vegetables, too.
A few kids will opt for real food over junk food given the choice; my younger brother was one, but they are few and far between. Again, not an issue I personally would spank over, but I suppose some might. > Did (s)he ignore your instruction–any instruction? Are you sure that (s)he > understood it? Ask him/her to repeat what they understood. They might be > surpried. Ask them for their solutions. You might learn something. Ask him/her how > they feel–repeat–FEEL about it. You might be enlightened.
My two year old was far too self centered and stubborn to entertain any solution to any problem other than the one she conceived originally. I would say, tentatively, that this is pretty typical. A good many two year olds don’t talk well enough to express anything much more complex than "I want" and "no". They generally have to be shown. It’s unfair to expect more of a small child than he is capable of. > Did you make them feel small? Hopeless? Bullied? Have they learned that they > can’t count on you as a support, a safety net? Have they learned that you hit them > to make yourself feel powerful? That you hit when you can’t think of anything > else? Is that what they are going to do, too, when theiy’re disappointed?
I would say that verbal abusers are more guilty of this than spankers, on the whole. Some kids repeat their parent’s behaviour, and some don’t. I have known it go both ways. I would concede that more repeat than don’t, but I don’t believe that the cycle is graven in stone. Does it make you feel powerful to post a negative assumptions? No responsible parent spanks as a first line strategy, and the examples of spanking circumstances offered by anti-spankers has been consistently more illustrative of potential abuse opportunities tnan of situations where those who defend spanking would spank. > It’s not easy being the primary trainer for new recruits to the human race. Check > with them–they have some good ideas, too. Kids actually learn a lot in a very > short time. They pride themselves on being problem-solvers. Find out what they > think. They really want to please you, no matter how it seems. It’s much easier to > work on solutions with someone else. Two heads really can be better than one.
A *trainer*??? Actually, there is considerable truth in that, though a lot of people would find it offensive. I didn’t *train* my daughter, but I did get an afghan puppy through obedience school with a happy tail – and obedient, too. Would you consider this a good reference? > Remember–if discipline doesn’t teach more appropriate behavior, it’s not > discipline. It’s punishment.
Oddly enough, children *can* learn from negative input. Preferably not too much negative input, but it is sometimes a useful strategy. I refer you to Thomas’ post, wherein he cites an instance of successfully deterring his small child from a dangerous situation by yelling at her – Lynn Aun Aprendo ***** Team OS/2
Response:
: >: I see your point, and I do happen to see the benefit if spanking is : >: completely restricted to nonagressive, non-overpowering discipline. : >: But it can also show how it can be okay to be used, and what if the : >: child gets the wrong idea and just uses it whenever when they become a : >: parent? : > : >This is a problem with whatever method you use. : it’s not a problem with methods that can go overboard and kill : children like time outs! The way I spank it can’t kill either. And timeouts can go over- board by locking up the kid in a closes causing claustrofobie. (sp?) : >When I tell my : >kid she is not allowed to do something she sometimes begin to ar- : >gue. I try to make a point of it to always start listening but : >if it begins to become tedious because we already had this argu- : >ment or she starts to use the same arguments I didn’t find ac- : >ceptable 5 minutes ago I’ll cut the discussion short and tell het : >I wont listen anymore because I don’t want to hear all the old : >arguments again. However it shows it is ok to not always listen : >and I can’t rule out my kids will get the wrong idea and when : >they become parenst cut a discussion short just because they : >don’t want to discuss it. : Your reductio ad absurdio is, i must say, just that. Please show me where your argument significantly differs from mine. Both use as argument that the child can later misuse the method you are using now. : To show children : that there is a line that will be drawn, and that they will just be : ignored is good. : And at lest you have a 100% guarantee the child won’t have physical : damage. The way I spank I have this guarantee as much as with any other method. : >: Unconscious parenting. My parents. I used to defend them, : >: but now I can see they just hit me because they were mad about what I : >: did, and justified it as discipline. No misinterpretations anymore – : >: 15 years of therapy proved that. : > : >Well I have been spanked too when I was younger. More by my fa- : >ther than my mother. Yet if you ask for which of the two I feel a : >bit resentment the definite answer is my mother. My mother just : >couldn’t listen and once she had an idea in het head there was : >nothing you could say to convince her otherwise and usually she : >even didn’t let you finish one sentence. : Okay – but you are only showing that you had parents like mine. No I’m showing that spanking is but one of many things that can instill resentment in a child. : And : ask yourself – do you know 100% that there aren’t some parenting "time : bombs" waiting in there for when you use physical punishment? Answer : – you can’t. Cognitive psych 101. Again – better to try to stay away : from the method altogether. No I can’t. I just don’t see what is so special about spanking in that. I think I may get hit timebomb even when not using physi- cal punishment. May be I got so frustrated trying to avoid phy- sical punishment that was what caused the time bomb to go off in the first place. Speculation possibilities enough. : >: Barring the argument that ANY spanking can emotionally scar a child, : >: the anti-spanking argument is "It’s easily misinterpreted and easily : >: abused as a means of discipline, therefore, it’s safer to NOT use it : >: at al." : > : >I think whatevr you use is easily misinterpreted by a child for : >the simple reason that kids don’t have a framework yet with which : >they can compare particular behaviour and classify it. : But again, spanking is at the top of the list. Your answer does not : directly answer the question. Yes spanking is at the top of the list. That is why it should be used the least. If you find yourself using it more than other methods it is high time to reconsider the whole situation and may be look for profesional help. Not that you have to wait until then. — All opinions expressed herein are currently under revision Antoon Pardon Brussels Free University Computing Centre
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : >Spanking your child for discipline and hitting your child out of anger is two > : >totally different things, and don’t think the child doesn’t know that. I am > : >speaking out of experience (the child kind). I am glad my parents instilled a > : >sense of discipline in me, and I know that when I was younger (7 max) I received > : >spankings, not out of anger, but because I did something wrong and that was the > : >punishment. I get so sick of hearing about some kid threating to call the > : >police on their parents if the get hit, maybe the spanking should’ve started > : >sooner (in age). Back talking was not an option in my family, I knew that, I > : >learned that, and I never received another spanking after the age of 7. I know > : >that when I have children, they will listen, or receive a spanking. It’s as > : >simple as that. > : >Carmen > : I see your point, and I do happen to see the benefit if spanking is > : completely restricted to nonagressive, non-overpowering discipline. > : But it can also show how it can be okay to be used, and what if the > : child gets the wrong idea and just uses it whenever when they become a > : parent? > This is a problem with whatever method you use. When I tell my > kid she is not allowed to do something she sometimes begin to ar- > gue. I try to make a point of it to always start listening but > if it begins to become tedious because we already had this argu- > ment or she starts to use the same arguments I didn’t find ac- > ceptable 5 minutes ago I’ll cut the discussion short and tell het > I wont listen anymore because I don’t want to hear all the old > arguments again. However it shows it is ok to not always listen > and I can’t rule out my kids will get the wrong idea and when > they become parenst cut a discussion short just because they > don’t want to discuss it. > : Unconscious parenting. My parents. I used to defend them, > : but now I can see they just hit me because they were mad about what I > : did, and justified it as discipline. No misinterpretations anymore – > : 15 years of therapy proved that. > Well I have been spanked too when I was younger. More by my fa- > ther than my mother. Yet if you ask for which of the two I feel a > bit resentment the definite answer is my mother. My mother just > couldn’t listen and once she had an idea in het head there was > nothing you could say to convince her otherwise and usually she > even didn’t let you finish one sentence. > : Barring the argument that ANY spanking can emotionally scar a child, > : the anti-spanking argument is "It’s easily misinterpreted and easily > : abused as a means of discipline, therefore, it’s safer to NOT use it > : at al." > I think whatevr you use is easily misinterpreted by a child for > the simple reason that kids don’t have a framework yet with which > they can compare particular behaviour and classify it. > Just as I think other methods are easily abused. The fact that > people seem to have so much difficulties in understanding what > the advocate mean with logical consequences makes me think this > is a method easily abused. To me it looks like that whatever > methods you use, you should use them wisely and that is the big > question when is which method wisely used. If some people are not > confident enough with some methods and choose not to use them > fine. However I don’t think this is a good reason to try and for- > bid those method. Caution people against the dangers yes but that > is as far as I would be willing to go. > — > All opinions expressed herein are currently under revision > Antoon Pardon Brussels Free University Computing Centre
I leave this whole post because I think the point is one which is central to the discussion. You truly cannot predict the way any given child will respond to any particular method. It came to me very early on as a parent that it was necessary for me to make choices and decisions without having any idea how they would affect my child (or even myself) over the long term. We all make mistakes along the way, but we don’t know *which* of our decisions or choices were wrong for 20 years or more. I assume, absent evidence to the contrary, that most parents are doing as I am – the best they can, with the resources to hand, one day at a time. Aun Aprendo ***** Team OS/2
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> [snipped] > : As for "why not use spanking to discipline children?" – because it’s > : using a physical tack instead of an emotional or intellectual one, > : which are the real reasons for action of the child that creates the > : incident that precipitates spanking. It just makes more sense to use > : mental and emotional means (redirectiona and discipline) against > : things that have mental and emotional causes (lack of control and > : inattentivenetss). > I don’t agree. This would mean it wouldn’t make sense to just > pick up your baby and remove him from a dangerous situation. Be- > cause removing your baby is a very physical approach. > : A child’s growth, psychologically, is a 20 year > : long development in self-control. It is a strong argument that to > : exercise self-control in NOT using spanking as a "punishment" is a > : great demonstration of how to be in control of oneself! After all, > : kids aren’t stupid. They KNOW when you would want to smack them, and > : they can see that you choose not to…the same value we want them to > : uphold later in life. > Do you advocate no punishment at all? No negative reaction at > all? Because the same argument can be made for all of these. And > of course I could take stick and then show control by throwing > away the stick and just spank her. Now I have the feeling you > wouldn’t like these kind of conclusions, I certainly wouldn’t but > they sure seem implied by your argument. > — > All opinions expressed herein are currently under revision > Antoon Pardon Brussels Free University Computing Centre
This is precisely the way a great many people *are* interpreting the no-corporal-punishment methods, and to my mind the children are suffering for it. A great many of them are growing up with the conviction that *nothing* negative can happen to them, no matter what they say or do in any circumstance. This is unrealistic at the least, and I don’t suppose anyone *intends* this outcome, but I do believe it is what is happening in many cases. To deprive kids of discipline comes pretty close to abuse, to my mind. lynn Homeschooler *** Team OS/2 A statistician is someone who can draw a straight line from an unwarranted assumption to a foregone conclusionn – Yale Hirsch
Response:
writes: >. Do we hit criminals? No,
We just KILL the ones who never get that there are limits to what society will tolerate. Levity is the dearth of gravity. Brevity is the height of clarity.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Spanking your child for discipline and hitting your child out of anger is two >totally different things, and don’t think the child doesn’t know that. I am >speaking out of experience (the child kind). I am glad my parents instilled a >sense of discipline in me, and I know that when I was younger (7 max) I received >spankings, not out of anger, but because I did something wrong and that was the >punishment. I get so sick of hearing about some kid threating to call the >police on their parents if the get hit, maybe the spanking should’ve started >sooner (in age). Back talking was not an option in my family, I knew that, I >learned that, and I never received another spanking after the age of 7. I know >that when I have children, they will listen, or receive a spanking. It’s as >simple as that. >Carmen > I see your point, and I do happen to see the benefit if spanking is > completely restricted to nonagressive, non-overpowering discipline. > But it can also show how it can be okay to be used, and what if the > child gets the wrong idea and just uses it whenever when they become a > parent? Unconscious parenting. My parents. I used to defend them, > but now I can see they just hit me because they were mad about what I > did, and justified it as discipline. No misinterpretations anymore – > 15 years of therapy proved that. > Barring the argument that ANY spanking can emotionally scar a child, > the anti-spanking argument is "It’s easily misinterpreted and easily > abused as a means of discipline, therefore, it’s safer to NOT use it > at al." > My 0.02. > Thomas A. Ott
No quarrel with that Thomas, but the anti-spankers not only do not make distinctions, their styles are frequently righteous, accusative, judgemental rigid and intolerant. This approach belies their claim that they wish to educate – a more open approach would serve them much better. Homeschooler *** Team OS/2 A statistician is someone who can draw a straight line from an unwarranted assumption to a foregone conclusionn – Yale Hirsch
Response:
: Okay, please quote to me where a regular poster ( not a Troll) on this : ng who is pro spank ever said that 1) they hit 2 year old babies According to the 1985 National Family Violence Survey, 88% of parents of 2 year olds use physical punishment. If NONE of the prospankers who post here fall into this category, this would constitute a statistical anomaly which would beg for an explanation. But even if none of them ever did hit their two year olds, this would simply mean that the prospankers on the net are not representative of parents in general, at least not USA parents. Chris
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> As for "why not use spanking to discipline children?" – because it’s > using a physical tack instead of an emotional or intellectual one, > which are the real reasons for action of the child that creates the > incident that precipitates spanking. It just makes more sense to use > mental and emotional means (redirectiona and discipline) against > things that have mental and emotional causes (lack of control and > inattentivenetss). A child’s growth, psychologically, is a 20 year > long development in self-control. It is a strong argument that to > exercise self-control in NOT using spanking as a "punishment" is a > great demonstration of how to be in control of oneself! After all, > kids aren’t stupid. They KNOW when you would want to smack them, and > they can see that you choose not to…the same value we want them to > uphold later in life. >Look nobody who is a responsible parent that spanks just goes around wacking their kid >all the time! We are capable of using other methods of discipline we just think that >sometimes in life a little swat must fall.
I’m not talking about "responsible" parenting – I’m talking about the ones who don’t think, and that occasional time when you have a headache and they just won’t stop yelling and throwing fits – it’s THEN that the "practice" of not using physical punishment will pay off – because you have trained yourself to think first, or even better, you have no impulse (practically) left to just hit the kid. A better guarantee for the child’s sake. >Well that maybe so, could someone post her credentials? I’d like to know. As far as I >can tell she is just someone who is against disciplining children, and spanking is a >easy target.
Ask her directly, or hang around more. I don’t want to speak for her, in this vein. Thomas A. Ott http://www.geocities.com/heartland/5294 "All Things Are Possible Except Skiing Through A Revolving Door…" [My posting address has been changed 'cause I'm getting too much usenet junk mail - use the one in my sig!]
Response:
Will you child-beaters please stop and listen to yourselves? The preoccupation with hitting is ridiculous. Ask a few questions first like: What is the problem? Is the child two years old? Does (s)he run in front of cars? Can (s)he understand language? Talk about it. Let him/her know your concern, your fears for safety, that you don’t want to lose him/her. Did (s)he eat a cookie just before dinner? Maybe (s)he felt desperate. Little bodies need energy in spurts and have difficulty fitting into adult schedules. provide fruit as a quick sugar lift that dissipates quickly. The body will seek meat and vegetables, too. Did (s)he ignore your instruction–any instruction? Are you sure that (s)he understood it? Ask him/her to repeat what they understood. They might be surpried. Ask them for their solutions. You might learn something. Ask him/her how they feel–repeat–FEEL about it. You might be enlightened. Did you make them feel small? Hopeless? Bullied? Have they learned that they can’t count on you as a support, a safety net? Have they learned that you hit them to make yourself feel powerful? That you hit when you can’t think of anything else? Is that what they are going to do, too, when theiy’re disappointed? It’s not easy being the primary trainer for new recruits to the human race. Check with them–they have some good ideas, too. Kids actually learn a lot in a very short time. They pride themselves on being problem-solvers. Find out what they think. They really want to please you, no matter how it seems. It’s much easier to work on solutions with someone else. Two heads really can be better than one. Remember–if discipline doesn’t teach more appropriate behavior, it’s not discipline. It’s punishment.
Response:
> Will you child-beaters please stop and listen to yourselves? The preoccupation > with hitting is ridiculous. Ask a few questions first like:
Okay, please quote to me where a regular poster ( not a Troll) on this ng who is pro spank ever said that 1) they hit 2 year old babies 2) that spanking is the only way they discipline their children? (you can find old post’s at dejanews) We keep saying OVER and OVER again that spanking is at best, the very least used discipline that we use. WE are great advocates of time out, loss of privilages etc… that fact is ignored by the cohort faction because even though they ARE against those forms of discipline also. > What is the problem? > Is the child two years old? Does (s)he run in front of cars? Can (s)he > understand language? Talk about it. Let him/her know your concern, your fears for > safety, that you don’t want to lose him/her.
1) no two year old of mine would ever be in the postion to be able to run out into traffic. Children that young should not be allowed out side without close adult supervision, 2) have you ever been the parent of a two year old child? They know 2 things, mine and no you can not "reason" out this senario with a child who has no concept of what "losing him/her" means. A child of two doesn’t grasp the concept of death. > Did (s)he eat a cookie just before dinner? Maybe (s)he felt desperate. Little > bodies need energy in spurts and have difficulty fitting into adult schedules. > provide fruit as a quick sugar lift that dissipates quickly. The body will seek > meat and vegetables, too.
Again are you a parent? Have you even babysat on a regular basis? Any two year old that has access to getting her/his own food is in far more danger than a spanking, sounds more like neglect. And for the rest of this paragraph anyone who has been a parent for mor than a few days can figure that out, as you obviously can attest to its pretty much in every book on child rearing. > Did (s)he ignore your instruction–any instruction? Are you sure that (s)he > understood it? Ask him/her to repeat what they understood. They might be > surpried. Ask them for their solutions. You might learn something. Ask him/her how > they feel–repeat–FEEL about it. You might be enlightened.
Hey all I said was " being two is no excuse for not mowing the lawn!" <G> What instructions? All a two year old should be expected to do is eat, sleep, play and watch a little Barney ( Barney you might of heard of him big, purple kids love him) Spend a little time with some "real" babies YOU might be enlightened! > Did you make them feel small? Hopeless? Bullied? Have they learned that they > can’t count on you as a support, a safety net? Have they learned that you hit them > to make yourself feel powerful? That you hit when you can’t think of anything > else? Is that what they are going to do, too, when theiy’re disappointed?
No, small,hopeless, and bullied is what a abuse child feels. What have my children learned? (I’ll tell you, my 14 year old has been driving me nuts wanting me to let her post here. I haven’t because I will not expose my child to the tactics of the cohorts. I might just revise that decsion.) My children have learned that, I love them and there is absolutly no crime or deed that they could do that I won’t still love them. My children have learned that NO means NO, not maybe if I whine or cry a little I can have it. They are complemented on their good behavior by total strangers and they are not afraid to make mistakes, because contrary to the cohorts belief, I very rarely spank and NEVER for a first or second offence and NEVER without a discussion, so that I am certain that they know why. Does it make me feel powerful, no I do not relish in causing my children pain. And If you think I can’t think of "anything" else to do just as my 14 year old, she hasn’t been spanked in years and she gets punished quite offen, after all she is 14 ( if you don’t have one of your own, ask someone who does they’ll explain). And for the record, my children trust and confide in me, I have never had to read my daughters diary, which she leaves out in the open, no lock. I have never had to snoop around in her room,or purse, because I respect her and know she will come to me when she’s in need, and knows I am their for her. > It’s not easy being the primary trainer for new recruits to the human race. Check > with them–they have some good ideas, too. Kids actually learn a lot in a very > short time. They pride themselves on being problem-solvers. Find out what they > think. They really want to please you, no matter how it seems. It’s much easier to > work on solutions with someone else. Two heads really can be better than one. > Remember–if discipline doesn’t teach more appropriate behavior, it’s not > discipline. It’s punishment.
Look up the word discipline in the dictonary,You will see among other things is the word punishment. Your right it isn’t easy to raise kids. It is the most important job a person will ever have, and the only one where total strangers will come up to you and either critize or comend you for the job your doing. After having 2 children of my own, I realize that each child is a separate individual, each requiring different approaches to guide them from infancy to adulthood. And your right 2 heads are better thatn one that is why my husband and I ALWAYS discuss every discipline that we exercise, for it is our job to raise our children not to let them raise themselves. Tammy Mother to Amanda 14 and Megan 4 — Ferengi Rule Of Acquisition # 285: " No good deed ever goes unpunished" Quark " The Collaborator"
Response:
>: I see your point, and I do happen to see the benefit if spanking is >: completely restricted to nonagressive, non-overpowering discipline. >: But it can also show how it can be okay to be used, and what if the >: child gets the wrong idea and just uses it whenever when they become a >: parent? >This is a problem with whatever method you use.
it’s not a problem with methods that can go overboard and kill children like time outs! >When I tell my >kid she is not allowed to do something she sometimes begin to ar- >gue. I try to make a point of it to always start listening but >if it begins to become tedious because we already had this argu- >ment or she starts to use the same arguments I didn’t find ac- >ceptable 5 minutes ago I’ll cut the discussion short and tell het >I wont listen anymore because I don’t want to hear all the old >arguments again. However it shows it is ok to not always listen >and I can’t rule out my kids will get the wrong idea and when >they become parenst cut a discussion short just because they >don’t want to discuss it.
Your reductio ad absurdio is, i must say, just that. To show children that there is a line that will be drawn, and that they will just be ignored is good. And at lest you have a 100% guarantee the child won’t have physical damage. >: Unconscious parenting. My parents. I used to defend them, >: but now I can see they just hit me because they were mad about what I >: did, and justified it as discipline. No misinterpretations anymore – >: 15 years of therapy proved that. >Well I have been spanked too when I was younger. More by my fa- >ther than my mother. Yet if you ask for which of the two I feel a >bit resentment the definite answer is my mother. My mother just >couldn’t listen and once she had an idea in het head there was >nothing you could say to convince her otherwise and usually she >even didn’t let you finish one sentence.
Okay – but you are only showing that you had parents like mine. And ask yourself – do you know 100% that there aren’t some parenting "time bombs" waiting in there for when you use physical punishment? Answer – you can’t. Cognitive psych 101. Again – better to try to stay away from the method altogether. >: Barring the argument that ANY spanking can emotionally scar a child, >: the anti-spanking argument is "It’s easily misinterpreted and easily >: abused as a means of discipline, therefore, it’s safer to NOT use it >: at al." >I think whatevr you use is easily misinterpreted by a child for >the simple reason that kids don’t have a framework yet with which >they can compare particular behaviour and classify it.
But again, spanking is at the top of the list. Your answer does not directly answer the question. >Just as I think other methods are easily abused. The fact that >people seem to have so much difficulties in understanding what >the advocate mean with logical consequences makes me think this >is a method easily abused. To me it looks like that whatever >methods you use, you should use them wisely and that is the big >question when is which method wisely used. If some people are not >confident enough with some methods and choose not to use them >fine. However I don’t think this is a good reason to try and for- >bid those method. Caution people against the dangers yes but that >is as far as I would be willing to go.
BTW – you are right – I was abused more emotionally as a child than I was physically. Mom was a real prozac candidate. I DO beleive that the only reason spanking is still legal in the US is because it is in that gray area of "family privacy" and "parental rights", and most people are still afraid to take the law beyond the front door. But again, abusing the ignoring method at least, will not injure the child physically. And it’s just too darn easy to go over the line with physcial punishment. Adrenalin gets in the way, and neuroses – it’s only neuroses with the "ignorance" abuse. Thomas A. Ott http://www.geocities.com/heartland/5294 "All Things Are Possible Except Skiing Through A Revolving Door…" [My posting address has been changed 'cause I'm getting too much usenet junk mail - use the one in my sig!]
Response:
>: As for "why not use spanking to discipline children?" – because it’s >: using a physical tack instead of an emotional or intellectual one, >: which are the real reasons for action of the child that creates the >: incident that precipitates spanking. It just makes more sense to use >: mental and emotional means (redirectiona and discipline) against >: things that have mental and emotional causes (lack of control and >: inattentivenetss). >I don’t agree. This would mean it wouldn’t make sense to just >pick up your baby and remove him from a dangerous situation. Be- >cause removing your baby is a very physical approach.
Tis is obviously an attempt to extend my line into an absurd conclusion. This is obviously not my conclusion. So I will say for fear of future ill-conceived counter offenses, if child is in danger, physically remove them. >: A child’s growth, psychologically, is a 20 year >: long development in self-control. It is a strong argument that to >: exercise self-control in NOT using spanking as a "punishment" is a >: great demonstration of how to be in control of oneself! After all, >: kids aren’t stupid. They KNOW when you would want to smack them, and >: they can see that you choose not to…the same value we want them to >: uphold later in life. >Do you advocate no punishment at all?
No. there is a diff between discipline and punishment, and "social punishment" (anyone have a better choice of words?) and physical punishment. I lean more toward discipline, and more toward social punishment. >No negative reaction at >all? Because the same argument can be made for all of these. And >of course I could take stick and then show control by throwing >away the stick and just spank her. Now I have the feeling you >wouldn’t like these kind of conclusions, I certainly wouldn’t but >they sure seem implied by your argument.
OBviously not. BTW – There used to be an argument in my parent’s time to hit a child with an inanimate object, because it’s not directly the parent then. My mom thus hit me with metal spoons. Sometimes negative punishment is necessary, and quicker – yesterday, both mommy and daddy were hauling groceries up with young Sara, and Sara almost pulled herself over the railing, down a 6 foot drop. I had told her several times in the last few seconds not to do it, but to no avail. I couldn’t drop the bags quick enough and get to her to just take her down and scold her, (my fault) so I had to yell at her to scare her enough to stop pulling herself over. Not justified, but still, there was no other foreseeable method. Today – she didn’t go near the railing. Thomas A. Ott http://www.geocities.com/heartland/5294 "All Things Are Possible Except Skiing Through A Revolving Door…" [My posting address has been changed 'cause I'm getting too much usenet junk mail - use the one in my sig!]
Response:
>I’m in favor of spanking when it’s needed, but by the same token, I feel >like my wife and I are in the minority of parents who are spankers who >actually know how to use it. I feel most of it _is_ abusive, and I often >wonder if some of us pro-spankers aren’t contributing to some other >problems. Unfortunately, I don’t see the government stepping into my >family (or yours) as an alternative. Although there may be problems with >it, I’d rather have spanking than not at all.
I would say you are not alone. My husband and I feel the same way about this. I think spanking can be abused, and I agree that a parent can use it for entirely the wrong reasons, or excessively use it. We have used more positive rewards lately for good behavior, as our oldest son is reaching 4 years old and he’s catching on to right and wrong, over time. We’ve never had to spank him much at all, and not for just any infraction of a rule. With my younger one, we can only tell as he grows and his personality unfolds. Right now, he’s one tough little man, and his personality is quite strong. >I also believe that too many parents use spanking too much. I’ve taken >great efforts to integrate time-out as much as possible. To me a spank >is about a 3rd warning. I also never say I’m gonna do something then not >do it. (If you write on the walls again, I’m going to spank you). It is >for this reason that I don’t make that threat litely, or often. >As a matter of fact, we’ve almost cured my daughter of tantrums with >time-out, and not spanking.
Hmmm… I don’t spank for tantrums, either. Timeout for tantrum is the kind of discipline tailored to the offense. I’ve found that most of the things kids do don’t warrant spanking, unless it’s quite rebellious. And if you don’t follow through on any form of discipline, you give the child mixed messages, which are difficult to interpret. That’s the "c" word again, consistency. — maur Mom to Michael (10/01/92) and Matthew (02/17/95)
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > As for "why not use spanking to discipline children?" – because it’s > using a physical tack instead of an emotional or intellectual one, > which are the real reasons for action of the child that creates the > incident that precipitates spanking. It just makes more sense to use > mental and emotional means (redirectiona and discipline) against > things that have mental and emotional causes (lack of control and > inattentivenetss). A child’s growth, psychologically, is a 20 year > long development in self-control. It is a strong argument that to > exercise self-control in NOT using spanking as a "punishment" is a > great demonstration of how to be in control of oneself! After all, > kids aren’t stupid. They KNOW when you would want to smack them, and > they can see that you choose not to…the same value we want them to > uphold later in life.
Look nobody who is a responsible parent that spanks just goes around wacking their kid all the time! We are capable of using other methods of discipline we just think that sometimes in life a little swat must fall. > BTW – LaVonne isn’t just another person who beleives this or that. > It’s her life and job, as I understand it. She merits an open ear. > Thomas A. Ott > http://www.geocities.com/heartland/5294 > "All Things Are Possible Except Skiing Through A > Revolving Door…" > [My posting address has been changed 'cause I'm getting too much usenet junk mail - use the one in my sig!]
Well that maybe so, could someone post her credentials? I’d like to know. As far as I can tell she is just someone who is against disciplining children, and spanking is a easy target. Tammy Mom to Amanda 14 and Megan 4 both well adjusted and happy
Response:
: <big ol snip> : >Please re-read your comments to me, and to others who disagree with you, : >from the perspective of the recipient. If someone were trying to convince : >you of some position in similar terms, how would you react? : Sorry if I’m not welcome butting in, putting on the asbestos underwear : ;=} : Lynn, from someone who’s been on both sides of the fence on the : spanking issue in this ng – your comments read with a caustic : undertone. I have had tooth-and-nail type arguments with LaVonne : myself, from YOUR side of the fence, and have never found her to be : particularly inflammatory. (Watch, someone’ll find a quote from me : from 3 mos ago that catches me with my foot in my mouth!) : As for "why not use spanking to discipline children?" – because it’s : using a physical tack instead of an emotional or intellectual one, : which are the real reasons for action of the child that creates the : incident that precipitates spanking. It just makes more sense to use : mental and emotional means (redirectiona and discipline) against : things that have mental and emotional causes (lack of control and : inattentivenetss). I don’t agree. This would mean it wouldn’t make sense to just pick up your baby and remove him from a dangerous situation. Be- cause removing your baby is a very physical approach. : A child’s growth, psychologically, is a 20 year : long development in self-control. It is a strong argument that to : exercise self-control in NOT using spanking as a "punishment" is a : great demonstration of how to be in control of oneself! After all, : kids aren’t stupid. They KNOW when you would want to smack them, and : they can see that you choose not to…the same value we want them to : uphold later in life. Do you advocate no punishment at all? No negative reaction at all? Because the same argument can be made for all of these. And of course I could take stick and then show control by throwing away the stick and just spank her. Now I have the feeling you wouldn’t like these kind of conclusions, I certainly wouldn’t but they sure seem implied by your argument. — All opinions expressed herein are currently under revision Antoon Pardon Brussels Free University Computing Centre
Response:
: >Spanking your child for discipline and hitting your child out of anger is two : >totally different things, and don’t think the child doesn’t know that. I am : >speaking out of experience (the child kind). I am glad my parents instilled a : >sense of discipline in me, and I know that when I was younger (7 max) I received : >spankings, not out of anger, but because I did something wrong and that was the : >punishment. I get so sick of hearing about some kid threating to call the : >police on their parents if the get hit, maybe the spanking should’ve started : >sooner (in age). Back talking was not an option in my family, I knew that, I : >learned that, and I never received another spanking after the age of 7. I know : >that when I have children, they will listen, or receive a spanking. It’s as : >simple as that. : >Carmen : I see your point, and I do happen to see the benefit if spanking is : completely restricted to nonagressive, non-overpowering discipline. : But it can also show how it can be okay to be used, and what if the : child gets the wrong idea and just uses it whenever when they become a : parent? This is a problem with whatever method you use. When I tell my kid she is not allowed to do something she sometimes begin to ar- gue. I try to make a point of it to always start listening but if it begins to become tedious because we already had this argu- ment or she starts to use the same arguments I didn’t find ac- ceptable 5 minutes ago I’ll cut the discussion short and tell het I wont listen anymore because I don’t want to hear all the old arguments again. However it shows it is ok to not always listen and I can’t rule out my kids will get the wrong idea and when they become parenst cut a discussion short just because they don’t want to discuss it. : Unconscious parenting. My parents. I used to defend them, : but now I can see they just hit me because they were mad about what I : did, and justified it as discipline. No misinterpretations anymore – : 15 years of therapy proved that. Well I have been spanked too when I was younger. More by my fa- ther than my mother. Yet if you ask for which of the two I feel a bit resentment the definite answer is my mother. My mother just couldn’t listen and once she had an idea in het head there was nothing you could say to convince her otherwise and usually she even didn’t let you finish one sentence. : Barring the argument that ANY spanking can emotionally scar a child, : the anti-spanking argument is "It’s easily misinterpreted and easily : abused as a means of discipline, therefore, it’s safer to NOT use it : at al." I think whatevr you use is easily misinterpreted by a child for the simple reason that kids don’t have a framework yet with which they can compare particular behaviour and classify it. Just as I think other methods are easily abused. The fact that people seem to have so much difficulties in understanding what the advocate mean with logical consequences makes me think this is a method easily abused. To me it looks like that whatever methods you use, you should use them wisely and that is the big question when is which method wisely used. If some people are not confident enough with some methods and choose not to use them fine. However I don’t think this is a good reason to try and for- bid those method. Caution people against the dangers yes but that is as far as I would be willing to go. — All opinions expressed herein are currently under revision Antoon Pardon Brussels Free University Computing Centre
Response:
<big ol snip> >Please re-read your comments to me, and to others who disagree with you, >from the perspective of the recipient. If someone were trying to convince >you of some position in similar terms, how would you react?
Sorry if I’m not welcome butting in, putting on the asbestos underwear ;=} Lynn, from someone who’s been on both sides of the fence on the spanking issue in this ng – your comments read with a caustic undertone. I have had tooth-and-nail type arguments with LaVonne myself, from YOUR side of the fence, and have never found her to be particularly inflammatory. (Watch, someone’ll find a quote from me from 3 mos ago that catches me with my foot in my mouth!) As for "why not use spanking to discipline children?" – because it’s using a physical tack instead of an emotional or intellectual one, which are the real reasons for action of the child that creates the incident that precipitates spanking. It just makes more sense to use mental and emotional means (redirectiona and discipline) against things that have mental and emotional causes (lack of control and inattentivenetss). A child’s growth, psychologically, is a 20 year long development in self-control. It is a strong argument that to exercise self-control in NOT using spanking as a "punishment" is a great demonstration of how to be in control of oneself! After all, kids aren’t stupid. They KNOW when you would want to smack them, and they can see that you choose not to…the same value we want them to uphold later in life. BTW – LaVonne isn’t just another person who beleives this or that. It’s her life and job, as I understand it. She merits an open ear. Thomas A. Ott http://www.geocities.com/heartland/5294 "All Things Are Possible Except Skiing Through A Revolving Door…" [My posting address has been changed 'cause I'm getting too much usenet junk mail - use the one in my sig!]
Response:
> Back talking was not an option in my family, I knew that, I >learned that, and I never received another spanking after the age of 7. I know >that when I have children, they will listen, or receive a spanking. It’s as >simple as that. >Carmen
Wow, Carmen, you bring up (to me) an incredible point. I was spanked rarely, but now that I think about it, I was never spanked past about 8 years old or so. This is a phenomenal revelation! (Although I think I could have used a few spankings when I was 17 or 18). I’ve mostly just read about this issue, and I haven’t seen people post a view that’s in accordance with mine (which may mean that I need to change). I’m in favor of spanking when it’s needed, but by the same token, I feel like my wife and I are in the minority of parents who are spankers who actually know how to use it. I feel most of it _is_ abusive, and I often wonder if some of us pro-spankers aren’t contributing to some other problems. Unfortunately, I don’t see the government stepping into my family (or yours) as an alternative. Although there may be problems with it, I’d rather have spanking than not at all. I also believe that too many parents use spanking too much. I’ve taken great efforts to integrate time-out as much as possible. To me a spank is about a 3rd warning. I also never say I’m gonna do something then not do it. (If you write on the walls again, I’m going to spank you). It is for this reason that I don’t make that threat litely, or often. As a matter of fact, we’ve almost cured my daughter of tantrums with time-out, and not spanking.
Response:
> >> LaVonne, there are potentially negative aspects to be found in virtually > >> every aspect of parenting. >Could you give examples and cite evidence of you above statement, >please? > I wasn’t qutoing research or statistics when I made that statement, I > was commenting on life in general. I would say that all of us have > experienced negative aspects of life, which I would think includes > childhood as well as parenting. Life is not driven by research and > statistics, or at least mine is not.
I don’t know whether "driven" is the right word, but decisions I make in life and in parenting is certainly influenced by research and statistics. That is why I wear a seatbelt, and require my children do also. It is why I did not give my children aspirin when they were younger. It is why, when purchasing a car, I chose one with airbags on both driver and passenger sides. And, it is why I do not spank my children. > > If you seriously want to improve parenting on the whole in this country, > > support family values, and reduce or eliminate child abuse, it would be > > far more useful to support committed, responsible parents, and cut the > > blanket criticism by about 95%. > I couldn’t agree more, however, I do not consider hitting the bodies of > little children a family value. > This comment is reminiscent of the oft-cited "and have things improved > since you stopped beating your wife?" Perhaps someone should ask, > seriously, what criteria parents who discriminate between "hitting the > bodies of little children: and "spanking" use to do so. The results > might be enlightening to all.
Yes, I’d like to know the difference between spanking and hitting the body of a little child. It still has not been explained how one can spank a child without hitting their body. >> Do you not see that you are doing to parents precisely the things you >> criticize them for doing to their children? > No, I have never spanked a parent, or physically hit an adult or child. > I criticize the practice of hitting children (spanking) in the name of > discipline, based on experience, child development literature, and > research. > Perhaps not, but if I addressed my child as you habitually address any > parent who doesn’t support your doctrine, you would have just cause to > criticize me.
If you addressed me, using literature, research, and evidence, I would certainly listen. My "doctrine" on spanking, as you call it, is supported by child development literature and research, just as my "doctrine" on car seats and seat belts is formed on statistics and scientific evidence. > If your goal is to educate parents, I would advise taking a more moderate > tone. If patronizing, browbeating, and nagging children is unlikely to > modify their behaviour, I think it is fair to say it is even less likely > to sway adults. > Please re-read your comments to me, and to others who disagree with you, > from the perspective of the recipient. If someone were trying to convince > you of some position in similar terms, how would you react?
I’m less concerned with tone than with evidence presented, and I assure you, if you present evidence, I will read your sources, regardless of your tone. I find the practice of hitting children intolerable, and I’m sure that comes across in the tone of my posts, as it is meant to. LaVonne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Aun Aprendo ***** Team OS/2
Response:
: Spanking your child for discipline and hitting your child out of anger is two : totally different things, and don’t think the child doesn’t know that. I am : speaking out of experience (the child kind). I am glad my parents instilled a : sense of discipline in me, and I know that when I was younger (7 max) I received : spankings, not out of anger, but because I did something wrong and that was the : punishment. I get so sick of hearing about some kid threating to call the : police on their parents if the get hit, maybe the spanking should’ve started : sooner (in age). Back talking was not an option in my family, I knew that, I : learned that, and I never received another spanking after the age of 7. I know : that when I have children, they will listen, or receive a spanking. It’s as : simple as that. Of course the hitting should start earlier, that instills a sense in the child that it deserves being hit by bigger family members and other people of authority. Do we hit criminals? No, not since the middle times. Why should we hit children, who commit much lesser crimes than adults? What makes adults so incapable of handling a child, so they must resort to violence? Why should not a child call the police when hit? If someone hit you, would you just swallow it? What if your boss hit you for coming late, or if the police pulled you over for driving fast, put you over their lap, and gave you a spanking? Going by your principles, that is not so much to word about. Don’t you decide who to listen to? Why don’t children have the right to talk back? Do you feel threatened? Can’t you defend yourself against child, instead beating them? Why are children the only ones in the USA who are not protected by the law from violence, domestic violence? Because they don’t have any power, and thus are easy to repress. Spousal abuse was common before, but is now banished. So is child abuse in many countries, unfortunately not North America. Adults are supposed to be able to reason, not become violent, especially not towards the weakest among us. — / /_/ /_/ /_/ . /_/ / /_/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /-’ | StHJJ1WkS+++Sal+++!^Bun+ __/ __/ __/ __/ __/
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