Question:
> I really think that this discussion belongs in another group. It started as > a parenting issue about teaching religion to children and has become a > religious and gender discussion that has no place in a parenting group. > Please either move it to another group or continue via e-=mail. thank you. > Lois Paul > Help The Children
I agree that the discussion has wandered off topic. But the intentions of the original posts were to discuss parenting strategies, *given* certain theological beliefs (i.e. God not male or female, etc.) *That,* I believe, is directly on topic here, and I would still like to see ideas along those lines posted here. And yes, let’s take the thological debate elsewhere. |Craig Weston Assistant Professor, | |Department of Music Theory, Composition, & | |Iowa State University Electronic/Computer Music | | | |WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~cweston/homepage.html |
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: One of these days, the RC church will figure this out. Didn’t take us long to get into the Catholic-bashing, did it? — Barnum’s Constant: B0 = 0.01667 suckers/sec
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>First, I wish to say that I applaud a desire to give a child a >framework for a religious belief. I do not consider myself aligned >with the "Religious Right", but I do believe that giving children (and >adults) a strong foundation outside of themselves is important. The >Christian ideal of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" >is much more admirable than the humanistic "do what feels good to >you."
HEY! Why must you unecessarily flame Humanists to make your point? Humanist values are **NOT** "do what feels good to you" and I wouold greatly appreciate just a tiny bit of respect for a philosophy of life that values people, understanding, empathy and a whole host of things that focus on doing what resons shows is good and ethical–things like treating people decently and fairly, treating the earth with the knowledge that my great-grandchildren will be living here, looking for human solutions to human problems. It is great you want to give your kids a religious upbringing. *I* can respect that. Giving them false lies about Humanists to stir up fear and hate is really rude and spiteful. Humanism is about treating all people with respect and understand since here we are and this is it, so we have to do our share to move humanity forwards toward treating each other more humanely. Please do not spead lies and mis-information such as humanism being about "do what feels good to you". I can gladly give more information about Humanism, specifically the American Humanist Association, if anyone emails me. Sigh. — "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people."–anon. Humanism is the radical notion that all people are human. Replace the Golden Rule with the Empathy Principle–feel what other people feel in
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I really think that this discussion belongs in another group. It started as a parenting issue about teaching religion to children and has become a religious and gender discussion that has no place in a parenting group. Please either move it to another group or continue via e-=mail. thank you. Lois Paul Help The Children – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My one objection to religion today is how very male oriented it is. We > are Roman Catholic and I have really been struggling as of late with > this. Does anyone have any suggestions for ‘unisex’ stories and how we > can teach that God isn’t a man or a woman? I really want to be able to > teach some of the stories and explain about God to my little guy but I > really want to do it in a non "sexist" way. Thanks in advance. >You may want to check out your local Universal Unitarian church, many are >non-denominational and somewhat gender-less. >Best wishes, >Lynne
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>I dunno, it never really occured to me that god was supposed to be a >MAN. I don’t think of "Him" as an omnipotent power with a penis…
Paul had the answer–he just didn’t know what to do with it: Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. One of these days, the RC church will figure this out.
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> >I dunno, it never really occured to me that god was supposed to be a >MAN. I don’t think of "Him" as an omnipotent power with a penis… > Paul had the answer–he just didn’t know what to do with it: > Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave > nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are > all one in Christ Jesus. > One of these days, the RC church will figure this out.
I hope so, but the problem remains in the mean time. And, of course, as adults, we can understand that just because we might continue to use masculine pronouns, we don’t necessarily perceive God as male. But how is a young child, who is just learning to sort out gendered pronouns, etc., supposed to understand this? I agree that using gender neutral (or alternating gendered) language is awkward and distracting for adults, but I think it really is necessary, at least for now, if we want to get this point accross to children. |Craig Weston Assistant Professor, | |Department of Music Theory, Composition, & | |Iowa State University Electronic/Computer Music | | | |WWW: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~cweston/homepage.html |
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First, I wish to say that I applaud a desire to give a child a framework for a religious belief. I do not consider myself aligned with the "Religious Right", but I do believe that giving children (and adults) a strong foundation outside of themselves is important. The Christian ideal of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is much more admirable than the humanistic "do what feels good to you." Second, although Jesus was male, my thoughts (as an adult who has examined his belief system, and on occasion, continues to do so) of God can be gender-neutral. However, I think that worrying about He/She as God is a distraction that really doesn’t further anything, but indicates an agenda that is beyond the children themselves. It doesn’t matter if it’s "Mother Nature" or "Our Father who art in Heaven", the ideal of respect for the planet and its occupants is foremost. This type of discussion ("Maleness of God"), it seems to me, would be more appropriate when the child begins to question his or her own faith. To confuse the matter beforehand could weaken the foundation you were creating in the first place. Warren
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >I dunno, it never really occured to me that god was supposed to be a > >MAN. I don’t think of "Him" as an omnipotent power with a penis… > Paul had the answer–he just didn’t know what to do with it: > Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave > nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are > all one in Christ Jesus. > One of these days, the RC church will figure this out. > I hope so, but the problem remains in the mean time. And, of course, > as adults, we can understand that just because we might continue to use > masculine pronouns, we don’t necessarily perceive God as male. But how > is a young child, who is just learning to sort out gendered pronouns, > etc., supposed to understand this? > I agree that using gender neutral (or alternating gendered) language is > awkward and distracting for adults, but I think it really is necessary, at > least for now, if we want to get this point accross to children.
I don’t see that pronouns translate directly (or even indirectly) to theology in children. In fact, even the most simple analysis of the English language brings up all kinds of inconsistencies that don’t seem to bother children at all. We all get "into" cars, but get "onto" trains and planes. (Nevermind that if I were forced to choose, I’d rather get "on" a car and "in" a plane!) I realize that there is more emotion tied up in the male vs. female issues, but with children I seriously doubt that conventions of english grammar program children into sexist robots. On the other hand, solid sexist theology CAN be taught, and is taught by some parents, family, friends, TV, and church. And some kids just seem to be more sexist then others. Maybe the sexist ones are more easily programmed by grammar then the rest =:O.
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> My one objection to religion today is how very male oriented it is. We > are Roman Catholic and I have really been struggling as of late with > this. Does anyone have any suggestions for ‘unisex’ stories and how we > can teach that God isn’t a man or a woman? I really want to be able to > teach some of the stories and explain about God to my little guy but I > really want to do it in a non "sexist" way. Thanks in advance.
You may want to check out your local Universal Unitarian church, many are non-denominational and somewhat gender-less. Best wishes, Lynne
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>… Rather than "unisex" stories, you might want to >place more emphasis on stories of holy (but not necessarily only in the >sense of being submissive) women.
Absolutely: Deborah (rallies Israel to war) Ruth (the basis for conversion in Judeao-Christian religion) Miriam (prophecy, and the abuse thereof) Judith (assasin) Abigail (only brains in the family) Sarah (laughing at God, naming her son after that laughter) Mary Mother of God (read the Magnificat if you think she is presented as a shrinking violet) Mary Magdelene (*not* a prostitute) St. Teresa of Avila God: I do this to all my friends. St. T: No wonder you have so few. St. Teresa Little Flower ("Why don’t they smile when they pray?" age 6) St. Joan of Arc (to my knowledge the only woman ever to serve as General of regular forces in combat, based on her own merit) All of this is far more useful than worrying at the lack of a human neuter pronoun in English: IMHO the greatest useless diversion ever devised for feminists. Bashing one’s face against the wall is more productive.
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My one objection to religion today is how very male oriented it is. We are Roman Catholic and I have really been struggling as of late with this. Does anyone have any suggestions for ‘unisex’ stories and how we can teach that God isn’t a man or a woman? I really want to be able to teach some of the stories and explain about God to my little guy but I really want to do it in a non "sexist" way. Thanks in advance. — Lisa Doran
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Yea don’t we just re-write the Bible:( 
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>My one objection to religion today is how very male oriented it is. We >are Roman Catholic and I have really been struggling as of late with >this. Does anyone have any suggestions for ‘unisex’ stories and how we >can teach that God isn’t a man or a woman? I really want to be able to >teach some of the stories and explain about God to my little guy but I >really want to do it in a non "sexist" way. Thanks in advance.
I dunno, it never really occured to me that god was supposed to be a MAN. I don’t think of "Him" as an omnipotent power with a penis. I really don’t mean to sound sacreligious, I have the utmost respect for all religions, but doesn’t it sound silly? I think it’s just easy to refer to God as "He," so people kept doing it. Why don’t you change the "He"s and "Him"s to it? Or just explain that "Him" is just how we refer to God? Hmmm, I can see where it can get sticky. Maybe someone else will have some better ideas. — Oklahoma State Universtiy has decided it can read private e-mail at any time without prior warning or consent. I strongly condemn these actions as a blatant invasion of privacy.
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Hi, all. No offense, but I really don’t think this topic belongs on misc.kids.pregnancy. We’re getting enough flame wars as it is, without bringing up topics that don’t even vaguely relate to pregnancy. Thanks. –Alison Dellenbaugh
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says… >Does anyone have any suggestions for ‘unisex’ stories and how we >can teach that God isn’t a man or a woman? >I think it’s just easy to refer to God as "He," so people kept doing it. >Why don’t you change the "He"s and "Him"s to it? Or just explain that >"Him" is just how we refer to God?
Why not refer to God as "her"? I actually try to do it roughly half the time, and probably more than half the time in prayer. And the Holy Spirit is quite feminine, IMHO. There’s actually quite a bit of feminist theology out there if you look, but some of it strikes me as a little too "unorthodox." YMMV. The authors I remember seeing include Rosemary Reuther and Judith Christ, and they may have suggestions about stories, etc. Rather than "unisex" stories, you might want to place more emphasis on stories of holy (but not necessarily only in the sense of being submissive) women. –Nancy (mom to Thomas, 9/9/93)
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Well our parish has been trying to use "inclusive" language for some time now which means that we don’t refer to God as he or she, but simply "God." When we say The Lord’s Prayer, our pastor starts out with, "Our mother our father who art in heaven…." I don’t know if I buy into it. Sometimes it just seems a little too PC if you know what I mean. I never think of God as being strictly male, but I have no problem using a male pronoun for God (I feel the same way about policemen, congressmen, firemen, mailmen etc.). One of the greatest things about the Catholic Church is that you *DO* have so many female role models (eg Mary, all the female saints, and all the women who do the *real* work around the parish). And as someone pointed out, the Holy Spirit is usually referred to in the feminine. Gotta love the theology of the Trinity!! :^) Carol Brand NorthWestNet Educational Services Specialist 15400 SE 30th Pl. STE 202 phone: (206)562-3000 fax: (206)562-4822 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My one objection to religion today is how very male oriented it is. We > are Roman Catholic and I have really been struggling as of late with > this. Does anyone have any suggestions for ‘unisex’ stories and how we > can teach that God isn’t a man or a woman? I really want to be able to > teach some of the stories and explain about God to my little guy but I > really want to do it in a non "sexist" way. Thanks in advance. > — > Lisa Doran
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