Pure Parents

Question:

This post can be authenticated at http://www.code4sale.com/cgi-bin/usenet.dll/a?N=167 Yea, CJMorgan! I could not have said it better! Teenagers who are left to their own devices have a tendency to want to prove society and their parents that they know all, and we know nothing about todays kids. They think they are immortal. This is trouble brewing, even with the best of teenagers. — He who sacrifices his conscience to ambition burns a picture to obtain the ashes. Lynda [This is my personal opinion and is no way

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The problems of school violence will not be solved by asking teens what their > problems are. > I’ve always found it quite helpful. And over the years I’ve come to observe > that most teens aren’t inherently bad, but many are extremely bored. > Teens thrive challenge. And when they don’t have one, they just as often find > their own. The only problem is, they don’t often consider whether their > self-determined challenges are constructive or destructive. And that’s the part > where adult attention helps. > When teens are left alone and decide on those self-chosen activities which are > destructive, they’re observed to be violent. When when they are encouraged > towards those self-chosen activities which are constructive, their adolecent > energies find a healthy outlet, and the violence once observed isn’t present > quite so often. > It’s of course not perfect. But it’s amazing how our teens improve when they > have adults around who are willing to spend some time with them. > C.J.

Response:

> The problems of school violence will not be solved by asking teens what their

problems are. I’ve always found it quite helpful. And over the years I’ve come to observe that most teens aren’t inherently bad, but many are extremely bored. Teens thrive challenge. And when they don’t have one, they just as often find their own. The only problem is, they don’t often consider whether their self-determined challenges are constructive or destructive. And that’s the part where adult attention helps. When teens are left alone and decide on those self-chosen activities which are destructive, they’re observed to be violent. When when they are encouraged towards those self-chosen activities which are constructive, their adolecent energies find a healthy outlet, and the violence once observed isn’t present quite so often. It’s of course not perfect. But it’s amazing how our teens improve when they have adults around who are willing to spend some time with them. C.J.

Response:

>You can’t possibly want to be taken seriously with such garbage flowing from >you.

Too bad, too, cuz he has some interesting things to say.  He must have torrets, though, cuz it seems that he almost can’t post without insulting or profanites. Glen (oh, well) Appleby — Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

Response:

PED – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >You can’t possibly want to be taken seriously with such garbage flowing from >you. >Anger and insults will not solve this problem. >Scott > > > The problems of school violence will not be solved by asking teens >what > > > their problems are. > Why are you so sure when nobody’s fucking tried that yet, you asshole! > > >  Teens are not capable of being objective about their > > > problems. > You’re worse, you can’t understand their or YOURS!! > > >  They are not old enough or experienced enough in life to > > > understand these things. > Excuse for abuse. The historic lie of control freaks. > > >  Here are three problems that I think cause these > > > things to occur (the violence in our teens): > > > 1.  I believe that one problem is that people are not afraid of >authority > > > anymore.  Children are not afraid of their parents.  This is really >too > > bad. > > > A healthy respectful fear of authority has kept me (and keeps me) from > > doing > > > bad things. > Fear kept you from doing all sorts of things, but you never learned how > to tell good from bad, except by fear, and that tactic raised > generations of assholes like you who would prate this crap around and > then embezzle, defraud, or anything they could do and would wait to be > caught as they had been as a child, instead of developing their own > ethical structure. > > >  Children must be taught to obey parents and parents must stop > > > treating children and teens as equals. > You prate this kind of shit, but nobody ever fucking STARTED treating > them as equals, so how in the fuck would YOU know, butthead! > >  They must stop trying to be > > buddies. > Oh Heaven Forfend that anyone should be treated like an equal in a free > country, it makes them uppity, dontcha know!! > > > If you child is taught these things when they are very young, they >will > > not > > > terrorize you or others when they are teens. > Criminals terrorize society and other people to get back at them for the > shit that was done to them in the name of discipline!!! > > > 2.  Parents must stop being selfish.  Many parents send their children >to > > > daycare when they are small (I realize that many parents have no >choice, > > but > > > most of the time daycare is involved, it is to maintain a certain > > lifestyle > > > or economic status, not to provide necessities).  The children know >from a > > > young age that the parents are not wrapping their lives around being > > > parents, but wrapping being parents around their lives.  Parents >should > > see > > > their children as their greatest responsibility.  This could be >enforced > > by > > > holding parents accountable for the actions of their kids (even > > teenagers). > That’s stupid, but we should pay them to stay home with the kids as much > as possible for the society, and if the rich get pissed at the tax > increases for that we should simply kill them all and feed their bones > to the kids as a calcium supplement!! Soylent greenbacks! > > > 3.  We must stop teaching people that there are no absolute > There ARE absolute values, it’s just that the rich and powerful and the > parents have lied about what they are for a thousand years!! They lied > so they could get away with enslaving people and their own children. > > > Some > > > things are always wrong and some things are always right. > I agree, but I think you’d be surprised WHAT I think is always right! > >  Children must > > be > > > taught right from wrong and be given a standard to judge by that does >not > > > change. > I agree, but you probably don’t agree with MY list of these!! > > > Not trying to get burned to a crisp in flames, just starting a dialog > > > (hopefully). > > > Scott > Kids should be taught that parents hurting kids or other adults by > demanding obediance or threatening violence is wrong and should be > punishable. Kids should be taught that their bodies are their own and > that they have the right to say NO *OR* YES to sex as THEY please and > NOT as it pleases parents or society. Kids should be taught that no one > has the right to tell them what to wear or even that they must wear > clothes, clothes are to keep you as warm as YOU wish, not to prevent > people from seeing your genitals. Kids should be taught that cleaning up > after yourself is a privilege. Kids should be forbidden to do it unless > they have been nice to each other. Kids should be shown love by being > breastfed by SOMONE as much as they wish till they forget to for three > days straight and still be able to nurse for comfort with their > breastmother for life. Kids should always see sex daily in their homes > and everywhere they go from their earliest memories so they never feel > it is peculiar, gross or abnormal. Kids should be shown all adult > activities from the first time they request that information, from > mechanics to surgery and be encouraged in all adult occupations as their > abilities permit. They must be treated as the smaller equals to adults, > not as chattel or objects of control. If someone wants their respect > they’d better do what they have to do for you or me to get it, namely > earn it!! > Steve

Response:

You can’t possibly want to be taken seriously with such garbage flowing from you. Anger and insults will not solve this problem. Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > The problems of school violence will not be solved by asking teens what > > their problems are. > Why are you so sure when nobody’s fucking tried that yet, you asshole! > >  Teens are not capable of being objective about their > > problems. > You’re worse, you can’t understand their or YOURS!! > >  They are not old enough or experienced enough in life to > > understand these things. > Excuse for abuse. The historic lie of control freaks. > >  Here are three problems that I think cause these > > things to occur (the violence in our teens): > > 1.  I believe that one problem is that people are not afraid of authority > > anymore.  Children are not afraid of their parents.  This is really too > bad. > > A healthy respectful fear of authority has kept me (and keeps me) from > doing > > bad things. > Fear kept you from doing all sorts of things, but you never learned how > to tell good from bad, except by fear, and that tactic raised > generations of assholes like you who would prate this crap around and > then embezzle, defraud, or anything they could do and would wait to be > caught as they had been as a child, instead of developing their own > ethical structure. > >  Children must be taught to obey parents and parents must stop > > treating children and teens as equals. > You prate this kind of shit, but nobody ever fucking STARTED treating > them as equals, so how in the fuck would YOU know, butthead! >  They must stop trying to be > buddies. > Oh Heaven Forfend that anyone should be treated like an equal in a free > country, it makes them uppity, dontcha know!! > > If you child is taught these things when they are very young, they will > not > > terrorize you or others when they are teens. > Criminals terrorize society and other people to get back at them for the > shit that was done to them in the name of discipline!!! > > 2.  Parents must stop being selfish.  Many parents send their children to > > daycare when they are small (I realize that many parents have no choice, > but > > most of the time daycare is involved, it is to maintain a certain > lifestyle > > or economic status, not to provide necessities).  The children know from a > > young age that the parents are not wrapping their lives around being > > parents, but wrapping being parents around their lives.  Parents should > see > > their children as their greatest responsibility.  This could be enforced > by > > holding parents accountable for the actions of their kids (even > teenagers). > That’s stupid, but we should pay them to stay home with the kids as much > as possible for the society, and if the rich get pissed at the tax > increases for that we should simply kill them all and feed their bones > to the kids as a calcium supplement!! Soylent greenbacks! > > 3.  We must stop teaching people that there are no absolute

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There ARE absolute values, it’s just that the rich and powerful and the > parents have lied about what they are for a thousand years!! They lied > so they could get away with enslaving people and their own children. > > Some > > things are always wrong and some things are always right. > I agree, but I think you’d be surprised WHAT I think is always right! >  Children must > be > > taught right from wrong and be given a standard to judge by that does not > > change. > I agree, but you probably don’t agree with MY list of these!! > > Not trying to get burned to a crisp in flames, just starting a dialog > > (hopefully). > > Scott > Kids should be taught that parents hurting kids or other adults by > demanding obediance or threatening violence is wrong and should be > punishable. Kids should be taught that their bodies are their own and > that they have the right to say NO *OR* YES to sex as THEY please and > NOT as it pleases parents or society. Kids should be taught that no one > has the right to tell them what to wear or even that they must wear > clothes, clothes are to keep you as warm as YOU wish, not to prevent > people from seeing your genitals. Kids should be taught that cleaning up > after yourself is a privilege. Kids should be forbidden to do it unless > they have been nice to each other. Kids should be shown love by being > breastfed by SOMONE as much as they wish till they forget to for three > days straight and still be able to nurse for comfort with their > breastmother for life. Kids should always see sex daily in their homes > and everywhere they go from their earliest memories so they never feel > it is peculiar, gross or abnormal. Kids should be shown all adult > activities from the first time they request that information, from > mechanics to surgery and be encouraged in all adult occupations as their > abilities permit. They must be treated as the smaller equals to adults, > not as chattel or objects of control. If someone wants their respect > they’d better do what they have to do for you or me to get it, namely > earn it!! > Steve

Response:

> > > The problems of school violence will not be solved by asking teens what > > their problems are. > Why are you so sure when nobody’s fucking tried that yet, you asshole!

Yeah!  Fuck you, you cunt!  Fuck shit motherfucker! I can swear too Steve!  What the fuck!?  Fuck!!!!  I feel like I’m ten years old again!  Fuck YOU, you ASS-HOLE!  Putting the emphasis on the dirty words so I can look all big and bad.  I love it! Son of a BITCH! — Jack Tarkaan                                      Kalamazoo, Michigan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > > The problems of school violence will not be solved by asking teens what >> > > their problems are. >> Why are you so sure when nobody’s fucking tried that yet, you asshole! >Yeah!  Fuck you, you cunt!  Fuck shit motherfucker! >I can swear too Steve!  What the fuck!?  Fuck!!!!  I feel like I’m ten >years old again!  Fuck YOU, you ASS-HOLE!  Putting the emphasis on the >dirty words so I can look all big and bad.  I love it! Son of a BITCH! > Just whip it on out boys.  I’ll go get the measuring tape.

Well, you’re going to have to grade on a curve, I think. — Jack Tarkaan                                      Kalamazoo, Michigan — NO UNSOLICITED E-MAIL AT THIS ADDRESS – Respect privacy – NO SPAM!!!!

Response:

Toto said: <snip> >> >> Why are you so sure when nobody’s fucking tried that yet, you asshole! >> >Yeah!  Fuck you, you cunt!  Fuck shit motherfucker! >> >I can swear too Steve!  What the fuck!?  Fuck!!!!  I feel like I’m ten >> >years old again!  Fuck YOU, you ASS-HOLE!  Putting the emphasis on the >> >dirty words so I can look all big and bad.  I love it! Son of a BITCH! >> Just whip it on out boys.  I’ll go get the measuring tape. >Well, you’re going to have to grade on a curve, I think. > A curve with only two students?

Think the grading material, not the grade itself. –Amee

Response:

>Just whip it on out boys.  I’ll go get the measuring tape.

Mine doesn’t whip.  It’s more like getting toothpaste outta a tube on a cold morning.  Ya squeeze it and eventually it oozes out. Glen (more than ya needed to know) Appleby — Do not underestimate your abilities.  That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > The problems of school violence will not be solved by asking > > teens what their problems are.  Teens are not capable of being > > objective about their problems.  They are not old enough or > > experienced enough in life to understand these things. > > Here are three problems that I think cause these > > things to occur (the violence in our teens): > Ahh. This explains me then. > I’m sorry but imo, you’re judging way too many people in one fell > swoop. If they’re taught at a young age to understand what they’ve > done wrong, as in starting very gently at the age of 2, they’ll > have >the hang of it by the time they’re older. > It starts even in infancy, Amee.  If parents meet their children’s > emotional needs, those children generally learn to cooperate instead > of being in conflict with the adults in their lives.

Yeah–Being a parent instead of a rabid dictator does give the kids a feeling of communication instead of competition. My parents, I guess, might’ve been a bit too…well, not leniant, exactly. But they almost always treated me as an equal, and then once I got a bit older, I turned into the mother. My dad was a narcotic addict and my mum was an alcoholic. They fought a lot and all the morals they gave me lived only in me until they got clean. Teachers asked sometimes,  with an awed voice, "Why’re you the way you are? Why haven’t you started being bad?" Because I basically hadn’t turned into a murderous, demented little monster. Now that question seems kind of silly to me. It was as if I was some sort of prodigy child for being a generally good kid after dealing with a few things, but if I had gone bad, they would have labelled me as a problem and kicked me out. I did skip enough school to take care of my family, though, that I got put into special education. ;/ > Many parents don’t know how to disipline this young. > They say "Oh, I can’t punish a baby. (S)He didn’t know what (s)he > was doing." But at that stage, it’s not so much punishment as > telling them that’s not a good thing to do, so let’s fix it now, > and let’s not do it again. > Discipline does not have to be punitive at all.  Good discipline > involves seeing the needs and feelings behind the behavior and helping > children find acceptable behaviors that meet those needs so that they > do not need to use unacceptable behaviors.

I fully agree with that. But those in my family range from the toddlers to the school age kids in a way that’ll backlash them for the rest of their lives–One moment, they’re too young for discipline of any kind, and the next they should DAMN WELL have known better! But then, they’re the ones who said "Ooh, seeexy!" in a teasing voice to my 3 year old cousin when he was dancing in his underwear on a table. And this is the grandmother who also had the boy call her "mom" for the first several years of his life. Idunno about my family. He won’t end up violent, but jeeze, they didn’t raise a finger when he killed one of Grandpa’s teeth. I think I did the best job when he accidentally killed my pet mouse. I was about, say, 14 at the time, and at first he lied about it, but I told him I wouldn’t be mad if he told the truth. So he did, and I wasn’t, but I did let him know he could never do anything of the sort again, and he fully agreed. In tears. He’s 9 now, and he’s better at empathizing with animals than any of his friends. > Most *misbehavior* should be viewed as a *teachable moment,* imo.

Y’know, I think I agree with everything you said here! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > 1.  I believe that one problem is that people are not afraid of > > authority anymore.  Children are not afraid of their parents. > > This is really too bad.  A healthy respectful fear of authority > > has kept me (and keeps me) from doing bad things.  Children > > must be taught to obey parents and parents must stop treating > > children and teens as equals.  They must stop trying to be > > buddies. If you child is taught these things when they are > > very young, they will not terrorize you or others when they > > are teens. > The problem is that the parents and children don’t respect > each other. It is a two way relationship–if it is borne in > attempts at buying material love, it won’t work. > How did you get so smart.  You are exactly on target, imo. > Children learn what they live.  Therefore if you respect them > which means actually listening to them and treating them as if > their feelings are real and matter, then they will respect you.

I find it works well with adults, too. If you treat them well, they’ll usually respect you. If you don’t, they hate you and you end up with a lot of confrontation. I think all people should try to respect all other people. That’ll bring down violence, including school violence, just by cleaning up the atmosphere the kids grow up in. > I don’t believe in instilling fear. That’s what Hitler did. > Instead, they should act as an authority with a lot of love. > There is such an answer as "No", but sometimes it needs to be "No, > because…" > Yes.  If we base our actions on fear of authority, we have no > idea about right and wrong, but are accepting some moral view > from outside ourselves.  What kids need to develop is a sense > of ethics based on empathy for others.

And if you teach a child by instilling fear, as in slapping them on the leg for calling you a name, you’ll end up with a kid who thinks the only way to deal with a confrontation is to beat someone’s head in. They don’t know how to talk it out at all. They just know if somebody insults you, you hurt them. "If you upset me, you shall pay." > For Scott, if the only thing that keeps you from *bad* actions is > fear of authority, then you will do those *bad* actions if you > believe no one will catch you.

*Bad* people don’t sit in jail cells thinking "Aww man, I shouldn’ta done that." They think "F*ck, I know how I slipped up, so next time I’m not gonna get caught!" I don’t believe in bad people. I believe in bad choices, and very very mentally ill people. These are people I don’t want around my kids, but I don’t want them punished, either; I want them to get the help they need. I don’t believe our current jail systems work. I can’t really say I’d do better, but I think somebody could. > And we need to get over the "I’ll tell you when you’re older" > kick. That makes them feel small and stupid. My parents didn’t > do that to me, and I think I turned out ok. I’m responsible for > my own actions, and I’ve not done anything to shame them. > Exactly on again, imo.  The more choices we give children and the > earlier we give them the more competent they become to actually > make good decisions when they are older.

The longer kids know about things, the longer they can process the information before they feel they have to use it. I know a chick who hasn’t told her daughter about periods yet, and she’s 9 years old–she won’t hear about anyone telling her! "Hearing about blood coming from there will scare a little kid." I’ve known about it for as long as I can remember, and it never scared me. This kid is gonna start soon, and gawd, she’s going to think she’s dying! > A toddler can be given choices between things that are acceptable, > then as a child grows, we need to give them more responsibility > even if some of the choices they make are mistakes.  The only way > that anyone learns is from experiencing the reality of his actions.

Or, as I did, learning a bit from the mistakes of others. I’m not going to touch heroin. Ever. I don’t even want to touch alcohol. Why? Because I watched my parents go through all of that, I took care of them, and I don’t particularly feel like going through that again, or putting my loved ones through it. I also don’t intend to kill, or even hurt anyone, ever. I’ve just always known how wrong that is. Who am I to cause even the slightest bit of pain to someone? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > 2.  Parents must stop being selfish.  Many parents send > > their children to daycare when they are small (I realize > > that many parents have no choice, but most of the time > > daycare is involved, it is to maintain a certain lifestyle > > or economic status, not to provide necessities).  The > > children know from a young age that the parents are not > > wrapping their lives around being parents, but wrapping being > > parents around their lives.  Parents should see their children > > as their greatest responsibility.  This could be enforced by > > holding parents accountable for the actions of their kids > > (even teenagers). > I do agree with this one! I intend to dedicate my life to my > family.  I will have a job. Of course, one needs one these days, > and I’m not the type to be a plain housewife. I want to be a > schoolteacher. I love children. > Teaching has much to recommend it (not money, however), if you wish > to keep yourself involved with your own children.  While the money > and working conditions in the public schools are not great, at least > you can be home when your children are home and you will have some > control over your job in terms of doing the grading and such at home.

I’m not too bothered about money. My fiance is great at financial stuff, and I’m going to have him teach me. Besides that, I’m much more interested in the job itself than anything else. I want the children to go home knowing more. Not just achedemic stuff, but survival, empathy, and just how to learn in general. If our schools could teach one thing and one thing only, I’d want them to teach the essence of learning. At least then none of the kids would go home to a dead end of how-to-spell-elephant, the way so many do now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> However, one thing I

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Response:

> > The problems of school violence will not be solved by asking teens what > their problems are.

Why are you so sure when nobody’s fucking tried that yet, you asshole! >  Teens are not capable of being objective about their > problems.

You’re worse, you can’t understand their or YOURS!! >  They are not old enough or experienced enough in life to > understand these things.

Excuse for abuse. The historic lie of control freaks. >  Here are three problems that I think cause these > things to occur (the violence in our teens): > 1.  I believe that one problem is that people are not afraid of authority > anymore.  Children are not afraid of their parents.  This is really too > bad. > A healthy respectful fear of authority has kept me (and keeps me) from > doing > bad things.

Fear kept you from doing all sorts of things, but you never learned how to tell good from bad, except by fear, and that tactic raised generations of assholes like you who would prate this crap around and then embezzle, defraud, or anything they could do and would wait to be caught as they had been as a child, instead of developing their own ethical structure. >  Children must be taught to obey parents and parents must stop > treating children and teens as equals.

You prate this kind of shit, but nobody ever fucking STARTED treating them as equals, so how in the fuck would YOU know, butthead! >  They must stop trying to be > buddies.

Oh Heaven Forfend that anyone should be treated like an equal in a free country, it makes them uppity, dontcha know!! > If you child is taught these things when they are very young, they will > not > terrorize you or others when they are teens.

Criminals terrorize society and other people to get back at them for the shit that was done to them in the name of discipline!!! > 2.  Parents must stop being selfish.  Many parents send their children to > daycare when they are small (I realize that many parents have no choice, > but > most of the time daycare is involved, it is to maintain a certain > lifestyle > or economic status, not to provide necessities).  The children know from a > young age that the parents are not wrapping their lives around being > parents, but wrapping being parents around their lives.  Parents should > see > their children as their greatest responsibility.  This could be enforced > by > holding parents accountable for the actions of their kids (even > teenagers).

That’s stupid, but we should pay them to stay home with the kids as much as possible for the society, and if the rich get pissed at the tax increases for that we should simply kill them all and feed their bones to the kids as a calcium supplement!! Soylent greenbacks!

There ARE absolute values, it’s just that the rich and powerful and the parents have lied about what they are for a thousand years!! They lied so they could get away with enslaving people and their own children. > Some > things are always wrong and some things are always right.

I agree, but I think you’d be surprised WHAT I think is always right! >  Children must > be > taught right from wrong and be given a standard to judge by that does not > change.

I agree, but you probably don’t agree with MY list of these!! > Not trying to get burned to a crisp in flames, just starting a dialog > (hopefully). > Scott

Kids should be taught that parents hurting kids or other adults by demanding obediance or threatening violence is wrong and should be punishable. Kids should be taught that their bodies are their own and that they have the right to say NO *OR* YES to sex as THEY please and NOT as it pleases parents or society. Kids should be taught that no one has the right to tell them what to wear or even that they must wear clothes, clothes are to keep you as warm as YOU wish, not to prevent people from seeing your genitals. Kids should be taught that cleaning up after yourself is a privilege. Kids should be forbidden to do it unless they have been nice to each other. Kids should be shown love by being breastfed by SOMONE as much as they wish till they forget to for three days straight and still be able to nurse for comfort with their breastmother for life. Kids should always see sex daily in their homes and everywhere they go from their earliest memories so they never feel it is peculiar, gross or abnormal. Kids should be shown all adult activities from the first time they request that information, from mechanics to surgery and be encouraged in all adult occupations as their abilities permit. They must be treated as the smaller equals to adults, not as chattel or objects of control. If someone wants their respect they’d better do what they have to do for you or me to get it, namely earn it!! Steve

Response:

> > The problems of school violence will not be solved by asking > teens what their problems are.  Teens are not capable of being > objective about their problems.  They are not old enough or > experienced enough in life to understand these things. > Here are three problems that I think cause these > things to occur (the violence in our teens): > Ahh. This explains me then. > I’m sorry but imo, you’re judging way too many people in one fell > swoop. If they’re taught at a young age to understand what they’ve > done wrong, as in starting very gently at the age of 2, they’ll > have >the hang of it by the time they’re older.

It starts even in infancy, Amee.  If parents meet their children’s emotional needs, those children generally learn to cooperate instead of being in conflict with the adults in their lives. > Many parents don’t know how to disipline this young. > They say "Oh, I can’t punish a baby. (S)He didn’t know what (s)he > was doing." But at that stage, it’s not so much punishment as > telling them that’s not a good thing to do, so let’s fix it now, > and let’s not do it again.

Discipline does not have to be punitive at all.  Good discipline involves seeing the needs and feelings behind the behavior and helping children find acceptable behaviors that meet those needs so that they do not need to use unacceptable behaviors. Most *misbehavior* should be viewed as a *teachable moment,* imo. > 1.  I believe that one problem is that people are not afraid of > authority anymore.  Children are not afraid of their parents. > This is really too bad.  A healthy respectful fear of authority > has kept me (and keeps me) from doing bad things.  Children > must be taught to obey parents and parents must stop treating > children and teens as equals.  They must stop trying to be > buddies. If you child is taught these things when they are > very young, they will not terrorize you or others when they > are teens. > The problem is that the parents and children don’t respect > each other. It is a two way relationship–if it is borne in > attempts at buying material love, it won’t work.

How did you get so smart.  You are exactly on target, imo. Children learn what they live.  Therefore if you respect them which means actually listening to them and treating them as if their feelings are real and matter, then they will respect you. > I don’t believe in instilling fear. That’s what Hitler did. > Instead, they should act as an authority with a lot of love. > There is such an answer as "No", but sometimes it needs to be "No, > because…"

Yes.  If we base our actions on fear of authority, we have no idea about right and wrong, but are accepting some moral view from outside ourselves.  What kids need to develop is a sense of ethics based on empathy for others. For Scott, if the only thing that keeps you from *bad* actions is fear of authority, then you will do those *bad* actions if you believe no one will catch you. > And we need to get over the "I’ll tell you when you’re older" > kick. That makes them feel small and stupid. My parents didn’t > do that to me, and I think I turned out ok. I’m responsible for > my own actions, and I’ve not done anything to shame them.

Exactly on again, imo.  The more choices we give children and the earlier we give them the more competent they become to actually make good decisions when they are older. A toddler can be given choices between things that are acceptable, then as a child grows, we need to give them more responsibility even if some of the choices they make are mistakes.  The only way that anyone learns is from experiencing the reality of his actions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 2.  Parents must stop being selfish.  Many parents send > their children to daycare when they are small (I realize > that many parents have no choice, but most of the time > daycare is involved, it is to maintain a certain lifestyle > or economic status, not to provide necessities).  The > children know from a young age that the parents are not > wrapping their lives around being parents, but wrapping being > parents around their lives.  Parents should see their children > as their greatest responsibility.  This could be enforced by > holding parents accountable for the actions of their kids > (even teenagers). > I do agree with this one! I intend to dedicate my life to my > family.  I will have a job. Of course, one needs one these days, > and I’m not the type to be a plain housewife. I want to be a > schoolteacher. I love children.

Teaching has much to recommend it (not money, however), if you wish to keep yourself involved with your own children.  While the money and working conditions in the public schools are not great, at least you can be home when your children are home and you will have some control over your job in terms of doing the grading and such at home. However, one thing I would caution about *dedicating* yourself to home and family.  Remember that children are only part of that. Take time for yourself without feeling guilty because if you don’t you will find that your energy for your children will suffer. And also take time for your relationship with your significant other because he (or she) also matters and both of you must be emotionally sound in order to be good parents. > 3.  We must stop teaching people that there are no absolute > values. Some things are always wrong and some things are > always right.  Children must be taught right from wrong and be > given a standard to judge by that does not change. > This is true. But there’s another absolute value, that you can’t > live for other people.  Therefore you can’t feel bad for too long > if a friend makes bad mistakes, which yes, I do too often, > you can’t necessarily clean up their messes for them, and you > should learn to forgive -anything-. Yes, in some cases, keep an > eye on the person. Still, being bitter forever isn’t going to > help anything.  Sometimes it’s even needed to cut off the person > entirely, no matter how much you love them. It takes willpower, > and a lot of (un)common sense.

I’m not quite sure how this part relates to teen violence, btw. But parents cannot cut off their children no matter how terrible the mistakes the kids make are. One of the hard things about parenting is letting kids experience life including the consequences of bad actions, but that doesn’t include cutting them off and not helping them when they do make a mistake and have something bad in their lives because of it. > Not trying to get burned to a crisp in flames, just starting a > dialog (hopefully). > I don’t want to flame you. I just want to put my opinions > forward, too. If you want, I’ll even demonstrate a teenager > being objective about her problems. > Scott > –Amee

Hey, Amee, neither you nor Scott are flaming, imho.  Good ideas and good posts here.  Also aside to Amee – you have the same spelling of your name that my dil has, but she isn’t a teenager, so I am assuming you are not her.  <G> Dorothy — There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens  … source unknown Before you buy.

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> The problems of school violence will not be solved by asking teens what > their problems are.  Teens are not capable of being objective about their > problems.  They are not old enough or experienced enough in life to > understand these things.  Here are three problems that I think cause these > things to occur (the violence in our teens):

Ahh. This explains me then. I’m sorry but imo, you’re judging way too many people in one fell swoop. If they’re taught at a young age to understand what they’ve done wrong, as in starting very gently at the age of 2, they’ll have the hang of it by the time they’re older. Many parents don’t know how to disipline this young. They say "Oh, I can’t punish a baby. (S)He didn’t know what (s)he was doing." But at that stage, it’s not so much punishment as telling them that’s not a good thing to do, so let’s fix it now, and let’s not do it again. > 1.  I believe that one problem is that people are not afraid of authority > anymore.  Children are not afraid of their parents.  This is really too bad. > A healthy respectful fear of authority has kept me (and keeps me) from doing > bad things.  Children must be taught to obey parents and parents must stop > treating children and teens as equals.  They must stop trying to be buddies. > If you child is taught these things when they are very young, they will not > terrorize you or others when they are teens.

The problem is that the parents and children don’t respect eachother. It is a two way relationship–if it is borne in attempts at buying material love, it won’t work. I don’t believe in instilling fear. That’s what Hitler did. Instead, they should act as an authority with a lot of love. There is such an answer as "No", but sometimes it needs to be "No, because…" And we need to get over the "I’ll tell you when you’re older" kick. That makes them feel small and stupid. My parents didn’t do that to me, and I think I turned out ok. I’m responsible for my own actions, and I’ve not done anything to shame them. > 2.  Parents must stop being selfish.  Many parents send their children to > daycare when they are small (I realize that many parents have no choice, but > most of the time daycare is involved, it is to maintain a certain lifestyle > or economic status, not to provide necessities).  The children know from a > young age that the parents are not wrapping their lives around being > parents, but wrapping being parents around their lives.  Parents should see > their children as their greatest responsibility.  This could be enforced by > holding parents accountable for the actions of their kids (even

teenagers). I do agree with this one! I intend to dedicate my life to my family. I will have a job. Of course, one needs one these days, and I’m not the type to be a plain housewife. I want to be a schoolteacher. I love children. > 3.  We must stop teaching people that there are no absolute values.  Some > things are always wrong and some things are always right.  Children must be > taught right from wrong and be given a standard to judge by that does not > change.

This is true. But there’s another absolute value, that you can’t live for other people. Therefore you can’t feel bad for too long if a friend makes bad mistakes, which yes, I do too often, you can’t necessarily clean up their messes for them, and you should learn to forgive -anything-. Yes, in some cases, keep an eye on the person. Still, being bitter forever isn’t going to help anything. Sometimes it’s even needed to cut off the person entirely, no matter how much you love them. It takes willpower, and a lot of (un)common sense. > Not trying to get burned to a crisp in flames, just starting a dialog > (hopefully).

I don’t want to flame you. I just want to put my opinions forward, too. If you want, I’ll even demonstrate a teenager being objective about her problems. > Scott

–Amee

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