Question:
>(disclaimer – I have no kids, but the following thoughts come from what I >felt as I was that age, nearly 18 years ago…..) >How much "space" should a teenager be allowed. I have a 15yr old, but should >there be different restrictions put on different age groups. Will tightening >up the reigns to protect your child put a strain on open communications. How > When I was that age, I had already begun to feel like I wanted >to be more on my own. It was frustrating knowing that I had little >choice other than to depend on my folks for many things. I really *didn’t* >want to talk to them a lot……
At fifteen it is a little late to be tightening up the reigns. This should have been discussed earlier in their life. We have learned a little late for our oldest (although we are not having problems with him at 18), but we have discussed this with our younger ones in that we will be expecting different from them, mostly because of the personality. At fifteen they are still learning and need to be able to discuss why they need (want) to do what they want to do. If it seems reasonable, why not chaporone, or if they are trustworthy, tell them that you will discuss the event as soon as they get home, and then wait for them and talk. If they know you will be up and waiting to talk, they may be more objective in their activities. You must let them know that if you discover that what they tell is not true, that limits will be put on. This "discover" is not spying, just usually an accidental finding out, like another parent telling you that such and such happened. You should also know the other persons involved by having them in your home and conversing or playing games etc, you can learn alot. (by persons, I mean that at that age, i do not think they should be allowed to "single" date or even maybe "double" date. ) >….She wants to be allowed to go >where ever her friends go, but "could I give her some money?". :-) These are >just some examples of the go away/come here syndrome I get chuckles from. >They are growing up, but they’re still kids.
We started giving our kids an allowance, based on their age, for their use on misc things. If they wanted something bad enuf (other than clothes which we would get for them, food, shelter, etc) they had to save up some money. They are also required to do jobs around the house, because they contribute to the need for getting things done – they use the bathroom, they eat, they sleep, they play – these jobs are not related to the allowance, but to learning responsible attitudes about the home life. >*drastically* – now there isn’t really anything for kids to do that >doesn’t require cold hard cash. Not every kid can get a job anymore, >so I think as long as the parents have cash and don’t get overindulgent >help the kid out.
Once in awhile but when you know where the money is going – like a baseball ticket, opera, whatever. BUT there are lots of things that could be done without money if the kids started to think. I think we as parents (or even those older than teens/college and not parents) do not THINK about what to do. We go out to eat, instead of having somebody in our home for a full evening of getting to know each other. Ever heard this before "Dad can I borrow the car, so I can go bowling and get some exercise". (Bowling alley is three blocks away.) Kids go to movies, games, whatever "to get to know somebody", since when do you get to know somebody while watching a movie, or even TV. Enuf…. >Duane
Dan
Response:
> I’m sure that in 12 years when my oldest is 15 I will have changed my tune ;- > but my belief is that they should get as much privacy as they want. I base > this on my own teen-age years when my mother would "clean up my room out of > a sense of love for me" only to find my cigareetes, birth control pills, etc. > and then lombast me for being irresponsible, sinful, stupid, etc. This did > NOT help our relationship.
Our eldest child is a daughter who just turned 9. My husband and I have talked about and managed to agree on most of our parenting ideas. I believe that you can give a child too much privacy. Your mother should not have cleaned up your room (she should’ve taught you to do it yourself and then let you, if/when you would), but she should have the right to know what’s going on. It sounds like you couldn’t trust her response to be positive so she was reduced to room searches. I reserve the right to search my kids room as needed, but I’m hoping to be able to talk calmly with her so it won’t be necessary. I have already let her know that she can tell me things and when we feel that she has become sexually active or is interested, we will provide her with condoms and information. > I believe that starting at 13 children should be treated like adults. They > should have adult responsibilities and adult priveleges (drinking and driving > being the obvious exceptions because of the laws). It is the time when they > get to practice being an adult. It is the time when they get to try and fail > and still have someone there to pick up the pieces. Keeping them babies unti > they are 18 and away from home isn’t fair to them.
You’re right that it’s hard to leave home when you haven’t been taught how to live as an adult. We have some friends who still live at home, because they’ve never been taught how to be an adult. I personally have problems with a child leaving home at 18, because in my mom’s house, it was known that she would prefer that all 3 of her daughters move out at 18. My response was to get married much too early, which naturally ended in divorce. What limits would you set on a 13-yr old? Would you allow them to try sex just because their hormones said yes? What about a resulting pregnancy? (and they do happen, even with b/c) What about staying out all night? Do you assume that they will abstain from illegal things, simply because they are illegal? You can talk to kids and teach them things like responsibilties and budgets and dealing with people as an adult without allowing them to go wild. Teens need limits just like kids do…not the same limits, but age appropriate ones. > I know. I learned all about life from "the school of hard knocks". And unli > home, the school of hard knocks kills those who make mistakes. It’s a course > I pray my children never have to take. > Now, ask me in 12 years how much privacy and freedom my son has. Since I’m > not the parent of a 3 YO I swore I would be, I’m sure I won’t be the parent o > a teen-ager I plan on being. 
Ideas tend to change with experience. xcluud!glnserv!katin =*= Kati Norris; Houston, Texas USA
Response:
>How much "space" should a teenager be allowed. [...] >I have to get permission to enter her room, but she’s the most sound sleeper >in the world, & wouldn’t hear a bomb go off.
This particular one seems easy to me. Point out the contradiction and make it clear that you’ll do whatever she says. In other words, if she wants to take responsibility for getting herself up in the morning, that seems like a positive thing, to me. Maybe she needs a louder alarm clock or something. More generally, I guess what I’m saying is that your contradictions don’t sound as contradictory to me as they do to you. For example, take the one about phone calls. What she is asking for sounds to me very much like what would be the obvious arrangement between two adults sharing an office. If you find out who’s calling in order to take a message, you’re being helpful. If you find out in order to keep tabs on her, you’re being nosy. The difference is one of motive, and I don’t think your daughter is being immature or silly by noticing that. (You should be happy, in fact. The fact that she’s willing to let you take messages means that her objection to you keeping tabs is one of general principle, rather than because she really has a secret to keep from you!) Now, maybe you feel that you SHOULD keep tabs. That’s a different issue and I’m not expressing an opinion about it. I just think that you shouldn’t make fun of your daughter for what seems perfectly sensible to me.
Response:
>Just for the sake of me getting new ideas, here’s a topic that could be hot:-) >How much "space" should a teenager be allowed. I have a 15yr old, but should >there be different restrictions put on different age groups. Will tightening >up the reigns to protect your child put a strain on open communications.
I was given a compromise that worked very well: I did — at 15, anyway — mostly what I wanted, but was required to give relevant information to my parents about what that was. Since I knew that my father wasn’t going to respond to my telling him who was calling me by throwing a fit, I didn’t mind telling him, and it meant he could keep an eye on my actions and make sure I was doing okay. The two caveats, both of which I thought reasonable at the time: if I didn’t handle the details of what I was doing like an adult — calling if I changed plans, getting my work done on time, making sure I was carrying enough money to get home by cab if I had to — I was not going to keep getting treated like one; and if there were something *really* serious, he stepped in and I was generally so surprised, since he virtually never did it, that I didn’t argue. This won’t work with most serious problem children or with very rebellious kids, but you sound, from the problems you describe, like you’ve got a pretty good kid anyway. — "The Arabs want us dead. We want to be alive. Compromise between these two positions is not exactly easy." -Golda Meir
Response:
>Just for the sake of me getting new ideas, here’s a topic that could be hot:-) >How much "space" should a teenager be allowed. I have a 15yr old, but should >there be different restrictions put on different age groups. Will tightening >up the reigns to protect your child put a strain on open communications.
I’m sure that in 12 years when my oldest is 15 I will have changed my tune but my belief is that they should get as much privacy as they want. I base this on my own teen-age years when my mother would "clean up my room out of a sense of love for me" only to find my cigareetes, birth control pills, etc. and then lombast me for being irresponsible, sinful, stupid, etc. This did NOT help our relationship. I believe that starting at 13 children should be treated like adults. They should have adult responsibilities and adult priveleges (drinking and driving being the obvious exceptions because of the laws). It is the time when they get to practice being an adult. It is the time when they get to try and fail and still have someone there to pick up the pieces. Keeping them babies until they are 18 and away from home isn’t fair to them. I know. I learned all about life from "the school of hard knocks". And unlike home, the school of hard knocks kills those who make mistakes. It’s a course I pray my children never have to take. Now, ask me in 12 years how much privacy and freedom my son has. Since I’m not the parent of a 3 YO I swore I would be, I’m sure I won’t be the parent of a teen-ager I plan on being. — I finally decided what I want on my tombstone… "Here lies Judy Leedom Tyrer. The world will never see another like her. We are undecided on whether this is a good thing or a bad thing."
Response:
>I’m sure that in 12 years when my oldest is 15 I will have changed my tune >but my belief is that they should get as much privacy as they want. I base >this on my own teen-age years when my mother would "clean up my room out of >a sense of love for me" only to find my cigareetes, birth control pills, etc. >and then lombast me for being irresponsible, sinful, stupid, etc. This did >NOT help our relationship.
The next paragraph talks about adult responsibilities and priveleges – hence if you had taken the responsibility of cleaning your room, maybe your mom would not have discovered all the things you were trying to hide. {Shame on you anyway 
} >I believe that starting at 13 children should be treated like adults. They >should have adult responsibilities and adult priveleges (drinking and driving >being the obvious exceptions because of the laws). It is the time when they >get to practice being an adult. It is the time when they get to try and fail >and still have someone there to pick up the pieces. Keeping them babies until >they are 18 and away from home isn’t fair to them.
You can not treat "children" as adults, this is something that is taught to them by the responsibilities given to them over time. If they can take on responsibilities, then add more. They become adults not by age but how they act. I know some 45 yr old children! >Now, ask me in 12 years how much privacy and freedom my son has. Since I’m >not the parent of a 3 YO I swore I would be, I’m sure I won’t be the parent of >a teen-ager I plan on being.
I will tickle this for 12 yrs – will you still be available on-line?
Response:
Just for the sake of me getting new ideas, here’s a topic that could be hot:-) How much "space" should a teenager be allowed. I have a 15yr old, but should there be different restrictions put on different age groups. Will tightening up the reigns to protect your child put a strain on open communications. How much rope should you give a teen, so they don’t come out hurt, but are learning from life? In our own life, my daughter doesn’t like me to ask the name of her callers if she is there, but wants me to know who called when she’s not. ? I have to get permission to enter her room, but she’s the most sound sleeper in the world, & wouldn’t hear a bomb go off…She wants to be allowed to go where ever her friends go, but "could I give her some money?". :-) These are just some examples of the go away/come here syndrome I get chuckles from. They are growing up, but they’re still kids.
Response:
>You can not treat "children" as adults, this is something that is >taught to them by the responsibilities given to them over time. If >they can take on responsibilities, then add more. They become >adults not by age but how they act. I know some 45 yr old children!
There is a well known psychological phenomena known as "the self fulfilling prophecy" which basically states that people behave according to other’s expectations of them. The study most frequently cited was of a random group of children put into a classroom. The teacher was told before hand that one set of children were slow learners. The same children in a different classroom had the teacher told a different set of children were slow learners. Sure enough, in both classes, the children labelled slow did worse than the other students. This was because the teacher EXPECTED them to do worse. Having seen myself function as two entirely different people in different circumstances, I am a firm believer in the self fulfilling prophecy. At home I was expected to be lazy, selfish, and a brat. Low and behold I behaved just as my mother expected me to. At camp, I was expected to be leader, neat, selfless, and giving. Guess what. That’s who I was. My mother was shocked when I was elected as Turtle Clan Princess (stupid title, but I was so happy) based on how giving and generous I was. If you treat a teen-ager like a child, the teen will behave like a child. If you treat a teen as an adult, the likelihood is much greater that they will behave like an adult. >I will tickle this for 12 yrs – will you still be available on-line?
Somewhere. I’m too much of a usenet addict to give it up. — I finally decided what I want on my tombstone… "Here lies Judy Leedom Tyrer. The world will never see another like her. We are undecided on whether this is a good thing or a bad thing."
Response:
>(disclaimer – I have no kids, but the following thoughts come from >what I >How much "space" should a teenager be allowed. I have a 15yr old, >but should
. . >Comment – if all parents were cool enough to *ask* what other >people thought about these kinds of things, and to consider what other >people had to say, I think we’d have a lot fewer kids running around >acting like "teenage mutant ninja dweebs"…… >Duane
Duane, please call me when you have teenagers!! ;-) Of course I can remember when I thought that my (teenage) life would be a lot more wonderful if my parents would give me more: 1) privacy 2) freedom 3) $$$$$ But now that I have two teenage boys, I have more sense than to be *cool* enough to ask how to keep my kids from being "teenage mutant ninja dweebs". In fact, the day I chose to PARENT my kids, I had to give up being cool! > Good point. As I said before, I always felt embarrassed that >there was a world opening up to me and I couldn’t do squat with it >because I had so little money.
Welcome to the real world!! A cool parent may give their kids lots of money; my kids get what my husband & I have determined to be enough. They then have to budget and they have to find ways to make money. We discourage jobs during the school year and insist on summer jobs; my oldest son is in college and may eventually be encouraged to find work even during the school year. Total privacy while living with us does not exist. Lack of total privacy will hopefully discourage my children from moving back home with us when they are adults —- but that is NOT the reason for the lack of privacy at this time. If their door is closed and they are in their rooms, I knock. But my children’s rooms are not off limits to me. For one thing, they will never be made to feel comfortable about storing illegal items in my house. With each year of maturity, they have had a greater say so in how their room is decorated and how it is kept (straight/messy); but it is their room *while* they live with me— therefore it is not off limits to me. I do not SEARCH their rooms – but if I wanted to, I could. The volume of phone calls that they get/make is huge and of little interest to me. But I occasionally ask, "who was that?", and I expect an honest answer. I also ask that they limit the amount of time of each conversation. My husband or I answer the phone after 11:00 and inform the caller that our kids don’t take calls after that time. Yours was an understatement when you said that girls didn’t call boys in your day — HAVE TIMES CHANGED. Many families seem to give their 4th grade daughters their own line in their own room (and then cannot supervisor how they use it!). I can’t tell you how many of my nights of sleep have been interrupted by little girls calling — I’m talking 2:00 and 3:00 a.m. and this has been happening since the 4th grade!! This has, fortunately, tapered off as the girls have grown up and they also may have passed around the word that a call to my kids in the middle of the night is handled by grumpy adults. By the way, all through high school, both boys have had curfews, even though they were the *ONLY* people in their entire high school who had them! ;-) We have a standard curfew for each grade (9th, …12th); but we will at least listen when they think there is a legitimate reason for extending the curfew. They phone when they are running late. If we are asleep when they get in, they have to wake us up. When our oldest is home from college, we ask that he give us an estimate of what time he will be home. If you want to hear me say that my kids have never done anything wrong or that they have never been in trouble — well, I’m not stupid!! But so far, the problems have been minimal. And by the way, both of my kids are cool! — Disclaimer: These are my opinions only; both my employer and my *KIDS* are likely to disagree! ;-) Iris Strey Comshare Inc., Austin, TX (512) 794-3739 9600 Great Hills Trail Product Development/Environment Support Mgr. Austin, TX 78759 {well-known-site}!cs.utexas.edu!execu!iris
Response:
>The study most frequently cited was of a random group >of children put into a classroom. The teacher was told before hand that >one set of children were slow learners. The same children in a different >classroom had the teacher told a different set of children were slow learners. >Sure enough, in both classes, the children labelled slow did worse than the >other students. This was because the teacher EXPECTED them to do worse.
Actually the study labelled randomly selected students as being especially SMART, not as being especially slow. And they did better. It doesn’t matter for the larger argument Judy is making, but I’m hoping to stave off a flurry of messages about the ethical implications of the study. (There was some argument about it at the time, but if it had been as Judy describes there would REALLY have been hell to pay.) The study remains controversial in details, although I think everyone agrees on the broad point it was trying to make. Interested people should look up _Pygmalion_in_the_Classroom_ (a book by the researchers themselves) and _Pygmalion_Revisited_ (a collection of critical responses). Sorry I don’t recall the authors or publishers.
Response:
> I’m sure that in 12 years when my oldest is 15 I will have changed my tune ;- > but my belief is that they should get as much privacy as they want. I base
I have to disagree with you on this … > this on my own teen-age years when my mother would "clean up my room out of > a sense of love for me" only to find my cigareetes, birth control pills, etc. > and then lombast me for being irresponsible, sinful, stupid, etc. This did > NOT help our relationship.
even _after_ the rest of the paragraph. > I believe that starting at 13 children should be treated like adults. They > should have adult responsibilities and adult priveleges (drinking and driving > being the obvious exceptions because of the laws). It is the time when they > get to practice being an adult. It is the time when they get to try and fail > and still have someone there to pick up the pieces. Keeping them babies unti > they are 18 and away from home isn’t fair to them.
I am in your situation; my children haven’t reached their "teens" yet, but I have soem very secure notions of what is/isn’t allowed. Treating them like adults works in some areas, but not all. One thing that I will emphasize to them as they grow is that they will both be treated according to the responsibility they take. If they are responsible for their actions then they will be given more "space" than if they were to take little responsibility for their actions. What your mother did _probably_ could have been done better, but there are some things implicit in the child/parent deal. One is that the child is living in the parent’s house, not vice versa. This may seem tyranical, but it’s a fact. When the child moves out on their own they may _then_ have as much space as they want. If the parents have done the job right, they still want to have close ties with the family. Anywho, see you in another twelve years |). later, jerry. email addres: xcluud!glnserv!jerryn| aka Jerry Norris or (Vermithrax) As usual, all flames will be judged on originality and color offset, with preference given to those using cobalt as a coloring agent.
Response:
(disclaimer – I have no kids, but the following thoughts come from what I felt as I was that age, nearly 18 years ago…..) >How much "space" should a teenager be allowed. I have a 15yr old, but should >there be different restrictions put on different age groups. Will tightening >up the reigns to protect your child put a strain on open communications. How
When I was that age, I had already begun to feel like I wanted to be more on my own. It was frustrating knowing that I had little choice other than to depend on my folks for many things. I really *didn’t* want to talk to them a lot…… >much rope should you give a teen, so they don’t come out hurt, but are learning >from life? In our own life, my daughter doesn’t like me to ask the name of her >callers if she is there, but wants me to know who called when she’s not. ?
As a male, this was NOT a routine problem for me – at the time it still was not really socially "acceptable" for girls to call guys. But thinking back on it, I didn’t want my folks asking me what I felt like were a lot of "stupid" questions. My folks gave me pretty wide latitude on what I did and where I went and I think I did a pretty good job of not disappointing them. I knew what the rules were and I knew *why* they were there. I guess this depends on the level of communication and understanding that you *already* have…. >I have to get permission to enter her room, but she’s the most sound sleeper
Not like I want to tell you how to run your family, but I think by the age of 15 a girl-heading-toward-woman should be given her privacy so long as there is no evidence that anything illegal/unacceptable is going on. Consider also the possibility that one innocent word spoken about a parent entering a female child’s room (especially one at the age of 15, right smack in the adolescent stage) can and will spark rumours about incest, etc. We have seen in the news cases where it didn’t initially matter if the claim was totally baseless and untrue. Peoples children have been taken, lawsuits ensued, etc. I think for a parent’s own safety it would be wise to give some respect to her request for some privacy. >in the world, & wouldn’t hear a bomb go off…She wants to be allowed to go >where ever her friends go, but "could I give her some money?". :-) These are >just some examples of the go away/come here syndrome I get chuckles from. >They are growing up, but they’re still kids.
Good point. As I said before, I always felt embarrassed that there was a world opening up to me and I couldn’t do squat with it because I had so little money. I grew up with folks who pretty much insisted that I earn my own money, with the idea it would help teach me some personal responsibility. No problem with that, but the world for kids has changed *drastically* – now there isn’t really anything for kids to do that doesn’t require cold hard cash. Not every kid can get a job anymore, so I think as long as the parents have cash and don’t get overindulgent help the kid out. Comment – if all parents were cool enough to *ask* what other people thought about these kinds of things, and to consider what other people had to say, I think we’d have a lot fewer kids running around acting like "teenage mutant ninja dweebs"…… Duane
Response:
Hey all you adults out there… Hopefully a word from a teen here wont cause to much trouble! (I’m 15…Dont ask how I get on the net..) Some of you seem to think that a lot of privacy for teens is right and that its wrong… Even though I pretty much have no rules for life because of my messed up family life, I think that some rules sould be implied with any family, but don’t over do it.. If we want to d something bad enough, well find a way… My girlfriend’s mom is quite strick on her, but that dosen’t stop her from going out and doing things behind her mom’s back at all. If you choose to give your kid all the freedom he/she wants then you probably will have trouble.. If its not parents that punish kids its the law.. Which being in youth homes isn’t the funnest thing in the world, it will teach you what to do and what no to… I can see how parents can worry about alcohol and drugs… Most kids do have access to them though, and if you are restrictive then you may end up catching your kids at being drunk/high but that won’t always stop them… May keep them from doing it all the time though.. Almost killing myself with drugs though; That sure as hell tought me mor than any rule or good parent could.. A lot of my friends still drink and get high often but I’ve pretty much quit both of them just from exsperiences with life… Oh ell have fun all you parents out there… —
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