Question:
>Cathlynnnn, I think you missed something here…
I read the entire thing. There is nothing wrong with reading it all and having a response to certain parts. >How is expressing how he and his friends felt "over the line", >particularly when they did *not* act out that desire?
I am so glad that they did not, but am I alone in realizing that thinking about it is scary enough? >By clipping and posting the one sentence out of the entire >paragraph, you paint quite a different – and innacurate – >picture of him and his friends…
The rest of the people on this NG are not morons. They know how to read the first post. They have minds of their own when reading it and can make logical deductions themselves. They do not need me to tell them. I was simply stating what bothered me just the same I might add that silenced has been doing all along….pointing out things that people say that bother him. I guess I did not realize that we were to voice our concerns…silly me. Cathy Mom to Taylor 6, & Tiffany 4. "To handle yourself, use your head…To handle others, use your heart!" http://hometown.aol.com/cathlynnnn/myhomepage/index.html
Response:
>Instead of showing what makes what we write GOOD, almost >all of the teachers use it to SHAME the other students; >i.e. "Why can’t you write like THIS? Did you leave your >brains under the pillow this morning?" for one example.
A lousy way of teaching. Some teachers never learned to teach. But is that really surprising? Lots of people never learn their jobs. — _____ / ’ / ,-/-, __ __. ____ /_ (_/ / (_(_/|_/ / <_/ <_
Response:
>This is really sad. >I and my friends give up as of this post. I’m pulling out >all stops, and intentionally writing as concisely as I can. >I am writing this from my "Friend"s computer, and he is >helping me with the phraseology as I write. I happen to >ENJOY learning, regardless of the source of that learning. >As one poster correctly noted, I very much seek to improve >my language and writing abilities at every opportunity.
Crud! I wish you would stick around and show some more courage. You are very articulate and you do have an audience, whether or not you know it. >If it feeds the doubt about who I am, or raises more >questions about my skills vis a vis my age, that’s life.
Exactly. Shine on the naysayers. >I am beginning to wonder if the speculation and suspicion >may be because PERHAPS the way I write and express myself >is pushing some buttons for some people?
I think you may be right. But we have already gone over this in aac. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Many of my peers resent me and my fellow geek friends (yes, >that is what we are called, and quite a few things worse) >because we speak better, write better, and in general express >ourselves more intelligently than they. Oh, some of them >have shared that is EXACTLY how they feel when they are >around us or have compositions we’ve written held up as an >example to them in school. >I think part of the problem (any teachers out there? pay >attention to this, OK?) is the WAY the teachers use what we >write as examples: >Instead of showing what makes what we write GOOD, almost >all of the teachers use it to SHAME the other students; >i.e. "Why can’t you write like THIS? Did you leave your >brains under the pillow this morning?" for one example.
Oh I absolutely agree. Thank you for saying this. I don’t think a majority of teachers realize what they are doing by *discouraging* children this way. Many are just jaded and go to work and collect their paychecks. I am glad some school districts are taking charge and checking out their teachers *on the job* more. But they really need to keep a closer eye on them all the time. My son’s teacher is brand-new to the job of teaching. She is also a single parent, and seems somewhat bitter. I just get this feeling from her. I think she stinks as a teacher. I think she has picked the wrong profession. She taught one year of kindergarten last year and now she is teaching the first grade. She has nothing but negative things to say about my son and most of the class. She has obviously a preference for girls. Boys are a whole different animal, but there is so much to be appreciated and actually celebrated in boys, too! Girls this age tend to be very cooperative, more so than boys. So what she wants is just everyone to shut the hell up and let her do her job her way. This isn’t gonna happen, of course, but damned if she won’t spend the rest of the school year trying to control everything. And I would bet money that she is either out of this particular school or she gives up teaching forever. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Don’t you comprehend that SHAMING children and teens in >this manner does NOT teach them anything, but only produces >RESENTMENT and anger in those students who do NOT have the >skills I and friends have learned? Do you not comprehend >that nearly ALL (note that I said "nearly") children and >teens who are shamed in this manner KNOW they cannot take >out that resentment and shame on the teacher because there >would be consequences – so they take it out on the SOURCE >of that resentment – US? Attempting to SHAME students into >becoming more skilled does not teach them ANYTHING positive >at all, and only serves to drive a lot of them into taking >out that shame on the other children who are, in their minds, >the source of that shame. >That’s TEACHING the students to ABUSE. That IS abuse. You >don’t like hearing that? Tough. DEAL.
You’ve got *my* attention, FWIW. <snipped> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->First, I want to say that I and my friends were very close >to going over the edge and taking rather illegal action, >very similar to the two teens in Columbine. What we did >see is that all of the variables that drove them over the >edge were buried in the media hype and hysteria; all of the >factors that drive children and teens into such great >frustration were not heard by those who really NEED to hear >that. We got the point real fast, and realized we had to >find some different outlet. The net and newsgroups, and >our resulting research culminating in our post "Why we don’t >talk." >By the way, I and my friends also see a lot of those same >factors here on the newsgroups. Shaming, name calling, >hazing, put-downs, etc. It is really depressing, no; SAD, >to us, reading all of the responses to what we’ve written. >The questioning, arguing, name calling, ABUSE so many of >you are inflicting on each other is appalling – the ones >involved in this are NO BETTER than the teens in my school >and so many other schools who delight in hazing and putting >each other down instead of THINKING and trying to figure out >constructive ways to deal with the various frustrations of life. >I’m drifting off-topic, so back to the purported "miracle" >of my and my friends’ survival. >Some may perceive this next part as "abuse-sizing"; however, >I think at times it can be beneficial. >There are a LOT of other survivors who have not only experienced >worse, but who have gone on to have DECENT lives – not that they >are living happy-happy joy-joy lives, but they ARE living stable >lives. I and my friends did a substantial amount of surfing >before chosing our (evidently futile) course of action. Regardless, >here are some URLs for you to browse; some are survivor pages, and >some are resource pages: >http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/Garden/1022/ >http://www.sehlat.com/survs.html >http://members.tripod.com/~insurv/ >http://www.feminist.com/rainn.htm/ >http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Bistro/4780/survivor.htm >http://www.noahgrey.com/massf/ (this one is GOOD – many >of the MALES who post here have gone through FAR more >than I) >http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/1520/surv.html >http://www.nemasys.com/ghostwolf/ >http://www.lunchpail.com/tess/ >http://www.aimnet.com/~mijo/SoulSearch.html >http://www.angelfire.com/fl/kimssafeplace/ >http://www.asarian-host.org/karmagrrl/ >There are so MANY more. Several of the above websites have >links to OTHER survivor pages. Take the time out from your >busy lives on these newsgroups and go READ survivor sites. ><Sarcasm> You Just Might Learn Something </Sarcasm>
Thank you for posting those sites. I’m also a survivor of child abuse at the hands of my own parents as well. I hope you do something about your personal situation very soon. You speak with so much power. You do not have to put up with abuse yourself if you have this much courage. <snip> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Regarding being able to leave at 18: I have to wonder if, when >people read posts, if they really READ what is said. >I SAID that my dad is encouraging me to GO TO COLLEGE, and that >I am FEEDING his ego by "stepping into line" and showing an >"interest" in what he wants me to pursue FOR my life, AND by >submitting to HIS whims, etc. without protest. >In simple words: I am, in his eyes, being his Good Widdle Boy >now, following in HIS footsteps as he wishes. He has ALREADY >selected several potential colleges for me, all of which are >from 500 to 3000 miles from here. >Why should I NOT take advantage of him? If, by being the >compliant son, I can go to a college of HIS choosing where my >time is MY OWN, then why not? HE will be providing ME with >the very tool and resources I need to achieve MY goals. He >is amazingly like a child in his excitement of "helping" me >choose a college, the major and minor, and a college-to-career >path that emulates his own. It is in some ways fun to watch, >and in other ways pathetic. HE IS SETTING ME FREE, and he has >no idea at all. >WHY is that so hard for so many of you to comprehend?
… Maybe because some of us have been there before, Silenced. Please give some of us a little more credit than you are tempted to. We hear you loud and clear, but some of us have some wisdom that you and others should hear. But you will have to make this decision on your own. I believe you have the will to do the right thing, and you have the power and courage to do the right thing *for you.* If you go to college on dad’s dime, you will spend even more time being under his wing. Honestly, that’s whether you think so now or not. In my own case, I went back to my father because I felt I needed him, too, but I regretted it later and finally burst out on my own. With all the respect you deserve, I must disagree with you. Going to college and using your dad to foot the bill, no matter how much you think this is revenge or whatever, this does *not* set you free. Please consider this carefully. >What I have to endure for the next 2 years is NOTHING compared >to what so many survivors have endured for their entire life. >I will be FREE, and I will have done it legally, morally, and >ethically. I have to do it that way FOR ME, NOT to please >some self-proclaimed rescuer or white knight.
You will be free when you are truly on your own, Silenced, not having to answer to *anyone* but the person you see in the mirror every day. Please, please, keep writing and sharing your strength.
Response:
>Restoring the context of Silenced message. Cathylynn please read >the entire statement in context instead of picking out something that >does not compute with what he said.
I am not sure that anybody needs it restored Dorothy, we are all quite capable of reading. I was not cutting and pasting to suit you, I was in fact concerned about this one statement and have every right to be..sorry I did not check with you first! I am merely pointing out that while I read the entire post, this struck me as scary. Even saying that it *was* on your mind sends a red flag up to me and is worth working out. If it does not to you, that is ok, but don’t discredit my concern because it is not yours! Other people may give into you, but I feel my thoughts are every bit as warranted as yours or in fact Silenced’s. You don’t think that the the Columbine students did not start out *thinking* about it? I would think that anyone that has children or is a child in school would find this upsetting. And while you want us to take silenced’s word at face value and listen, all the rest of us should be afforded the same luxury…and not just when you deem it necessary. Cathy Mom to Taylor 6, & Tiffany 4. "To handle yourself, use your head…To handle others, use your heart!" http://hometown.aol.com/cathlynnnn/myhomepage/index.html
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>First, I want to say that I and my friends were very close >>to going over the edge and taking rather illegal action, >>very similar to the two teens in Columbine. >I don’t care if you are 13 or 73, this is over the line. If you are as >intelligent as you profess, then use the knowledge for good and not evil. I >am >sorry for whatever predicament it is that you are unfortunate enough to be >in, >but do you really think that comments like these will gain you ears from >adults >and/or people your own age? >Just a touch punitive, are we?
Explain where this would be punitive. >Read what he said, again. Especially "First, I want to say that >I and my friends *were* very close to going over the edge …" >Emphasis mine.
mine? >Yer actually reading something from a pretty smart cookie.
And your point is……. Cathy Mom to Taylor 6, & Tiffany 4. "To handle yourself, use your head…To handle others, use your heart!" http://hometown.aol.com/cathlynnnn/myhomepage/index.html
Response:
>>First, I want to say that I and my friends were very close >to going over the edge and taking rather illegal action, >very similar to the two teens in Columbine. >I don’t care if you are 13 or 73, this is over the line. If you are as >intelligent as you profess, then use the knowledge for good and not evil. I am >sorry for whatever predicament it is that you are unfortunate enough to be in, >but do you really think that comments like these will gain you ears from adults >and/or people your own age?
Just a touch punitive, are we? Read what he said, again. Especially "First, I want to say that I and my friends *were* very close to going over the edge …" Emphasis mine. Yer actually reading something from a pretty smart cookie. — Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss’s job. It is your job to find ways around your boss’s roadblocks.
Response:
<snip> Silenced, because I am a *teacher,* myself, I had to comment on this part of your post. Everything you say rings true to me in terms of why these problems occur. I hope you will not leave us to our own devices. Your analysis is clear and to the point. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Many of my peers resent me and my fellow geek friends (yes, >that is what we are called, and quite a few things worse) >because we speak better, write better, and in general express >ourselves more intelligently than they. Oh, some of them >have shared that is EXACTLY how they feel when they are >around us or have compositions we’ve written held up as an >example to them in school. >I think part of the problem (any teachers out there? pay >attention to this, OK?) is the WAY the teachers use what we >write as examples: >Instead of showing what makes what we write GOOD, almost >all of the teachers use it to SHAME the other students; >i.e. "Why can’t you write like THIS? Did you leave your >brains under the pillow this morning?" for one example.
I cannot imagine a good teacher saying something like this, but if it has been your experience I am sorry. The good teachers I know would never even hold up another kids writing as an example. The idea is to improve your own writing by editing. And to work with other kids so that each kid has a chance to improve his own skills. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Don’t you comprehend that SHAMING children and teens in >this manner does NOT teach them anything, but only produces >RESENTMENT and anger in those students who do NOT have the >skills I and friends have learned? Do you not comprehend >that nearly ALL (note that I said "nearly") children and >teens who are shamed in this manner KNOW they cannot take >out that resentment and shame on the teacher because there >would be consequences – so they take it out on the SOURCE >of that resentment – US? Attempting to SHAME students into >becoming more skilled does not teach them ANYTHING positive >at all, and only serves to drive a lot of them into taking >out that shame on the other children who are, in their minds, >the source of that shame. >That’s TEACHING the students to ABUSE. That IS abuse. You >don’t like hearing that? Tough. DEAL.
You are right, Silenced that this teaches kids to be abusive, but it seems to me that as teachers, we need to not only stop this kind of shaming kids, but we have to actively promote cooperation instead of competition. There are lots of things wrong with our schools and you have pointed out one major flaw. Dorothy
Response:
>Restoring the context of Silenced message. Cathylynn please read >the entire statement in context instead of picking out something that >does not compute with what he said. >I am not sure that anybody needs it restored Dorothy, we are all quite capable >of reading. I was not cutting and pasting to suit you, I was in fact concerned >about this one statement and have every right to be..sorry I did not check with >you first!
You don’t have to *check* with me about anything, but statements can be twisted when you take them out of context. >I am merely pointing out that while I read the entire post, this struck me as >scary. Even saying that it *was* on your mind sends a red flag up to me and is >worth working out. If it does not to you, that is ok, but don’t discredit my >concern because it is not yours!
So when your child says *I hate you* honestly instead of acknowledging that the *feeling* is valid for him at the time, you get scared about it? >Other people may give into you, but I feel my >thoughts are every bit as warranted as yours or in fact Silenced’s.
Yes your thoughts and feelings are quite valid. The problem is with your twisting of the words he wrote. >You don’t think that the the Columbine students did not start out *thinking* >about it? I would think that anyone that has children or is a child in school >would find this upsetting.
Why? Wouldn’t you rather know what people were thinking about and figure out why and act to prevent the root causes? >And while you want us to take silenced’s word at face value and listen, all the >rest of us should be afforded the same luxury…and not just when you deem it >necessary.
But the problem is that you totally turned around what he said. You did NOT hear and understand at all. Why is it so hard to keep things in context? Three of us pointed this out to you independently. He is honestly telling you why he thought about it and what *we* might be able to do about such things. He is honestly telling you his feelings and you are afraid of them. But his feelings about this are not the problem. Dorothy
Response:
Restoring the context of Silenced message. Cathylynn please read the entire statement in context instead of picking out something that does not compute with what he said.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->First, I want to say that I and my friends were very close >to going over the edge and taking rather illegal action, >very similar to the two teens in Columbine. >I don’t care if you are 13 or 73, this is over the line. If you are as >intelligent as you profess, then use the knowledge for good and not evil. I am >sorry for whatever predicament it is that you are unfortunate enough to be in, >but do you really think that comments like these will gain you ears from adults >and/or people your own age?
Here is a teen who tells you that he was *close* to the edge and why and you still cannot understand what is happening. Don’t you even see that this young man is trying hard to let us know how to prevent these things from happening. This kind of clipping out of his statements, taking them out of the context of what he said is unconscionable. To restore the context, please see the whole statement by Silenced below. "First, I want to say that I and my friends were very close to going over the edge and taking rather illegal action, very similar to the two teens in Columbine. What we did see is that all of the variables that drove them over the edge were buried in the media hype and hysteria; all of the factors that drive children and teens into such great frustration were not heard by those who really NEED to hear that. We got the point real fast, and realized we had to find some different outlet. The net and newsgroups, and our resulting research culminating in our post "Why we don’t talk."
Response:
> This is really sad. > I and my friends give up as of this post.
Silenced: I hope you change your mind about giving up. I havent kept up with everything, but I did read this thread with interest. I dont understand all of what has frustrated you, but I think the fact that you are eloquent and clear thinking is much to your credit, as I would think it should be to anyone’s. I personally "got it" before that by "towing the line" for your father he was assisting you in your escape from him. Bravo! I salute you for that. And I REALLY appreciated your thoughts on teaching by shaming whether in or out of school. That is so accurate. Age means jack sh*t to me. What I respect is what a person believes and how they handle themselves. You are someone I respect. thanks for the post. angie — If you can judge a wise man by the color of his skin, then mister you
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