Question:
Wendy wrote in her usual illuminating fashion: :-) >What would make me rude is if I came into your house and started >poking around your ashtrays and quizzed you on whether the kids had >been home when you had those particular butts. Having an opinion is >not evil. Grading people’s parenting in person to their face… not >good. > I want people who smoke in their child’s home to be arrested. > Steve
Sigh. Of course you do. We could have figured that. Doesn’t someone on alt.spanking need you? I think I hear them calling you! Wendy
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > >> upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > >> refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > >> regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > >> even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > >> did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > >> Frannie > >Everyone in my family has had their kids off the bottle by a > >year….however, I didn’t have to wean really at all. My daughter took >right > >to the sippy cup, and one day when she was about 11 months I gave her a > >bottle and she handed it right back to me. I put the milk in the sippy >cup > >and she hasn’t had a bottle since! She’d started rejecting formula right > >before then too….it was nice because she let *me* know when she was >ready > >to give up her bottle. > >Hopefully her little brother will do the same! 
> >Sherrie > aww..lucky you!..2 of my kids were also addicted to soothers > too…it’s hard to break those habits..sometimes harder for the parent > then the child > I wish mine had let me know..I felt like quite the ogre taking away > their bottles. The thing about my friend is..he & his wife both work > full time and I think they feel bad trying to take away that warm > bottle of milk from their daughter. I suppose some parents do > that..but I think I put a bug in his ear by acting so surprised that > the babywas still on the bottle tho..so who knows what will happen > Frannie >If it is OK with the parents and the child that she still has a bottle, what >is the problem? >Stephanie
There isn’t any, except a bunch of beaten children imagining that some child somewhere is now "getting away with something", dontcha know, when THEY weren’t allowed to! To such people "parenting" is the process of inuring your child to viciousness by successive withdrawl of affection in steps to harden them to the "cruel world"! Steve
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > >> upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > >> refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > >> regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > >> even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > >> did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > >> Frannie > >Everyone in my family has had their kids off the bottle by a > >year….however, I didn’t have to wean really at all. My daughter took >right > >to the sippy cup, and one day when she was about 11 months I gave her a > >bottle and she handed it right back to me. I put the milk in the sippy >cup > >and she hasn’t had a bottle since! She’d started rejecting formula right > >before then too….it was nice because she let *me* know when she was >ready > >to give up her bottle. > >Hopefully her little brother will do the same! > >Sherrie > aww..lucky you!..2 of my kids were also addicted to soothers > too…it’s hard to break those habits..sometimes harder for the parent > then the child > I wish mine had let me know..I felt like quite the ogre taking away > their bottles. The thing about my friend is..he & his wife both work > full time and I think they feel bad trying to take away that warm > bottle of milk from their daughter. I suppose some parents do > that..but I think I put a bug in his ear by acting so surprised that > the babywas still on the bottle tho..so who knows what will happen > Frannie >If it is OK with the parents and the child that she still has a bottle, what >is the problem? >Stephanie
There isn’t a problem..I was just curious what other parent’s thoughts were on thw subject. Frannie
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > > > upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > > > refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > > > regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > > > even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > > > did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > > Do you supervise many of your friend’s parenting choices? Is she okay > > with this? > Oh the irony…. >Glad you find me so amusing. >I bend over backwards not to make my friends feel bad. As it happens, >I AM judgmental. It’s right there in my Myers-Briggs type. It’s one >of the ways I interface with the world. But I know perfectly well >that YMMV and that my answers are not the ones everyone else would >come up with. >I know the difference between thinking something is wrong (in my >opinion) and making others do it my way. Furthermore, I know the >difference between always doing the best thing in theory and doing the >best we can in the real world. >This poster not only happened to notice the toddler’s bedtime ritual, >she went on to ask a bunch of questions – why not sippy cups, why does >he still let this go on… it made me wonder how her friend must have >felt at her avid interest. I think the "I’m only the Dad" line is >particularly sad, like he was backed into a wall and had to devalue >his whole role in the kid’s life to get himself off the hook for this >[clearly awful] parenting failure. >Here’s an example especially for you, Nan. I have one friend who >smokes. I think smoking is distasteful. I think people ought not to >smoke in front of children. I’ve never once investigated whether or >not she smokes in front of her children. I am not in charge of her. >But I can stand right up and shout to anyone "I don’t think you should >smoke in front of your kids." Voicing this opinion on usenet does NOT >make me her oppressor. >What would make me rude is if I came into your house and started >poking around your ashtrays and quizzed you on whether the kids had >been home when you had those particular butts. Having an opinion is >not evil. Grading people’s parenting in person to their face… not >good. >By the way, judgmental does not equal condescending. Think it >through. >Wendy
I want people who smoke in their child’s home to be arrested. Steve
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and >> upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter >> refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with >> regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they >> even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages >> did/do you think a baby should be weaned? >> Frannie >Everyone in my family has had their kids off the bottle by a >year….however, I didn’t have to wean really at all. My daughter took right >to the sippy cup, and one day when she was about 11 months I gave her a >bottle and she handed it right back to me. I put the milk in the sippy cup >and she hasn’t had a bottle since! She’d started rejecting formula right >before then too….it was nice because she let *me* know when she was ready >to give up her bottle. >Hopefully her little brother will do the same! >Sherrie > aww..lucky you!..2 of my kids were also addicted to soothers > too…it’s hard to break those habits..sometimes harder for the parent > then the child > I wish mine had let me know..I felt like quite the ogre taking away > their bottles. The thing about my friend is..he & his wife both work > full time and I think they feel bad trying to take away that warm > bottle of milk from their daughter. I suppose some parents do > that..but I think I put a bug in his ear by acting so surprised that > the babywas still on the bottle tho..so who knows what will happen > Frannie
If it is OK with the parents and the child that she still has a bottle, what is the problem? Stephanie
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > > upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > > refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > > regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > > even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > > did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > Do you supervise many of your friend’s parenting choices? Is she okay > with this? > Oh the irony…. > Nan
ROTFLMAO….oh THIS is TOO funny! hahahahahahaha Sherrie — Momma to Madison Marie (10/18/00) and Nicholas Luke (10/17/01) Cafe Mom–Information, Humor and Inspiration For Moms, By Moms www.cafemom.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
> > > I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > > upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > > refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > > regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > > even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > > did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > Do you supervise many of your friend’s parenting choices? Is she okay > with this? > Oh the irony….
Glad you find me so amusing. I bend over backwards not to make my friends feel bad. As it happens, I AM judgmental. It’s right there in my Myers-Briggs type. It’s one of the ways I interface with the world. But I know perfectly well that YMMV and that my answers are not the ones everyone else would come up with. I know the difference between thinking something is wrong (in my opinion) and making others do it my way. Furthermore, I know the difference between always doing the best thing in theory and doing the best we can in the real world. This poster not only happened to notice the toddler’s bedtime ritual, she went on to ask a bunch of questions – why not sippy cups, why does he still let this go on… it made me wonder how her friend must have felt at her avid interest. I think the "I’m only the Dad" line is particularly sad, like he was backed into a wall and had to devalue his whole role in the kid’s life to get himself off the hook for this [clearly awful] parenting failure. Here’s an example especially for you, Nan. I have one friend who smokes. I think smoking is distasteful. I think people ought not to smoke in front of children. I’ve never once investigated whether or not she smokes in front of her children. I am not in charge of her. But I can stand right up and shout to anyone "I don’t think you should smoke in front of your kids." Voicing this opinion on usenet does NOT make me her oppressor. What would make me rude is if I came into your house and started poking around your ashtrays and quizzed you on whether the kids had been home when you had those particular butts. Having an opinion is not evil. Grading people’s parenting in person to their face… not good. By the way, judgmental does not equal condescending. Think it through. Wendy
Response:
> I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > Frannie
I don’t remember ever worrying about this – other than to switch to water for any night bottles. But I never even thought about stopping the children. I assumed it would happen when it was time to happen – and it did. I imagine there are those children out there who’d keep that bottle until who knows when, but 2 years old certainly isn’t old enough to cause concerns. All children are different. All families are different. All people are different. I refuse (and I mean REFUSE) to eat lettuce on hamburgers or other hot foods. I can’t begrudge a two year old her preference for warm milk. Your friend and her daughter are doing just fine. Let the comparisons go. They are positively meaningless.
Response:
,<snip> >Do you supervise many of your friend’s parenting choices? Is she okay >with this?
it’s a he..and no I don’t..and he doesn’t seem to get upset..it’s not like I freaked out on him for it..I was just surprised..his answer…"well…I’m just the dad"…..so I guess he is just going with the flow of what sorts of routines his wife has set for their kids. I just always thought babies were weaned earlier then 2 cuz almost every one I know had done it that way. Frannie
Response:
> I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > Do you supervise many of your friend’s parenting choices? Is she okay > with this?
Oh the irony…. Nan
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > > upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > > refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > > regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > > even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > > did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > Do you supervise many of your friend’s parenting choices? Is she okay > with this? >Oh the irony…. >Nan
My meter just went fwiiiiiinng…. Banty
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > >upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > >refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > >regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > >even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > >did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > >Frannie > Unless it goes on very long (like three years) – the baby should wean. >The main > concern here being that this nightime bottle can give rise to dental >problems > because the sugar-containng milk (even plain milk) will pool in the mouth >in > contact with the teeth, promoting bacteria growth and tooth decay. For >that > reason, your friend should consider either offering warm water at bedtime >or > allowing a bed time cup 1/2 hour or so before bedtime. > My son weaned himself off the bottle at 18 months. The bottle he hung >onto was > the *morning* bottle (anyone else’s baby do this?). >Yep. My son had given up nighttime bottles at a very early age, but the >morning bottle was the one he held onto for so long. >~Nan~
Interesting. So many articles, etc., talk about that night-time bottle being the last. My son just wanted it to wake up with and make a bridge between sleepiness and activity, it seemed. Banty
Response:
>Yep. My son had given up nighttime bottles at a very early age, but the >morning bottle was the one he held onto for so long. >~Nan~ > Interesting. So many articles, etc., talk about that night-time bottle being > the last. My son just wanted it to wake up with and make a bridge between > sleepiness and activity, it seemed. > Banty
My daughter will probably do the typical hanging on to the night bottle. She associates it with winding down and relaxing before bed. My son was (and still is) much like I am in the mornings… slow to wake up and become coherent. ~Nan~
Response:
> I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > Frannie
Hmmm…. I officially introduced the sippy cup at breakfast only when my son was 8 months old, so he’d have time to get familiar with it. After 2 weeks, I started it at lunch, and then by 9 months, he had it at every meal. By 10 months, he was only getting 3 bottles a day–one between breakfast and lunch, one between lunch and dinner, and one before bed. My kid’s pediatrician told me to take away the bottle on his first birthday. I decided that perhaps it was a little cruel to just rip it away like that (after some insistant howling). So, I instead started only giving him bottles if I was holding him like a baby–and keeping a sippy cup around at all times with water + giving him the sippy cup at meals. Naturally, bottles didn’t get heated anymore. By 13 months, he had no interest in the bottle, (and had *long* since given up the pacifier) preferring freedom to move around. Now, my opinion: When they start walking, they start weaning.
Response:
> I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > did/do you think a baby should be weaned?
Do you supervise many of your friend’s parenting choices? Is she okay with this? Interestingly, this came up at a dinner party tonight. Close friends of mine have volunteered to take my two year old next week-end. I’ve never left him behind before, but I have to drive 1600 miles in 48 hours for a family event and it seems like something he’d rather miss. So anyway, she was asking me about his routine. I had to admit to them that Sammy still gets a bottle of milk at night! Not only that, but it’s a precisely formulated mix of organic cow’s milk and soy formula and temperature counts! My friend’s husband (also at the dinner) is a dentist and we ALL know that this is bad for Sammy’s teeth. We know it. We do it anyway. It wasn’t that long ago that I was nursing him to sleep. A year slipped by with the substitute in place. I hadn’t had to confess that Bad Mother tidbit to anyone before, and now I had to tell not only my best friend, but a dentist, as well! Do you know what the husband/dentist said? He said, "well, everything I know about you says you two are pretty good parents." Phew. He is willing to grant me my eccentricities. Glad we got past that. (I *did* point out that we brush his teeth just before giving him the bottle.) :-) Wendy
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and >> upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter >> refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with >> regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they >> even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages >> did/do you think a baby should be weaned? >> Frannie >Everyone in my family has had their kids off the bottle by a >year….however, I didn’t have to wean really at all. My daughter took right >to the sippy cup, and one day when she was about 11 months I gave her a >bottle and she handed it right back to me. I put the milk in the sippy cup >and she hasn’t had a bottle since! She’d started rejecting formula right >before then too….it was nice because she let *me* know when she was ready >to give up her bottle. >Hopefully her little brother will do the same! >Sherrie > aww..lucky you!..2 of my kids were also addicted to soothers > too…it’s hard to break those habits..sometimes harder for the parent > then the child > I wish mine had let me know..I felt like quite the ogre taking away > their bottles. The thing about my friend is..he & his wife both work > full time and I think they feel bad trying to take away that warm > bottle of milk from their daughter. I suppose some parents do > that..but I think I put a bug in his ear by acting so surprised that > the babywas still on the bottle tho..so who knows what will happen > Frannie
Well, Maddie still takes a pacifier to bed, and I’m not going to take that away from her. I figure that, like the bottle, she will give it up on her own. Sherrie — Momma to Madison Marie (10/18/00) and Nicholas Luke (10/17/01) Cafe Mom–Information, Humor and Inspiration For Moms, By Moms www.cafemom.net
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and >upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter >refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with >regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they >even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages >did/do you think a baby should be weaned? >Frannie > Unless it goes on very long (like three years) – the baby should wean. The main > concern here being that this nightime bottle can give rise to dental problems > because the sugar-containng milk (even plain milk) will pool in the mouth in > contact with the teeth, promoting bacteria growth and tooth decay. For that > reason, your friend should consider either offering warm water at bedtime or > allowing a bed time cup 1/2 hour or so before bedtime. > My son weaned himself off the bottle at 18 months. The bottle he hung onto was > the *morning* bottle (anyone else’s baby do this?).
Yep. My son had given up nighttime bottles at a very early age, but the morning bottle was the one he held onto for so long. ~Nan~
Response:
> I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > Frannie
My son gave up his bottles of milk at just shy of his 3rd birthday. My just turned 2 year old daughter still takes her morning and evening bottles of milk. I have no intention of taking away her comfort item. ~Nan~
Response:
>I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and >upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter >refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with >regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they >even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages >did/do you think a baby should be weaned? >Frannie
Don’t fight with your child, simply entice them into their future with goodies and perques for leaving behind the past. Steve
Response:
>I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and >upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter >refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with >regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they >even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages >did/do you think a baby should be weaned? >Frannie
My youngest, who was 2 yesterday, hasn’t weaned either. She can use a regular cup, and does whenever she wants juice, but she likes her morning and evening bottle of milk, and I don’t see why I should take it away from her. Her sister gave up formula at about 18 months but still likes to take a bottle of water to bed at 3.5 years. For her this is a comfort item and I won’t take it away until she is comfortable with doing so. –Lisabell
Response:
>I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and >upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter >refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with >regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they >even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages >did/do you think a baby should be weaned? >Frannie
Unless it goes on very long (like three years) – the baby should wean. The main concern here being that this nightime bottle can give rise to dental problems because the sugar-containng milk (even plain milk) will pool in the mouth in contact with the teeth, promoting bacteria growth and tooth decay. For that reason, your friend should consider either offering warm water at bedtime or allowing a bed time cup 1/2 hour or so before bedtime. My son weaned himself off the bottle at 18 months. The bottle he hung onto was the *morning* bottle (anyone else’s baby do this?). He wanted that bottle first thing in the morning, and would lay back with a smile, sucking on his bottle while waking up. When he was 18 months, we moved. I figured it was the last time I’d pick to see if he would go off the bottle – new environment, new childcare provider, etc. After a few days, he asked for a nighttime bottle. I figured I’d indulge and I gave it to him (sitting up, well before bed). Then a bottle the next morning. Then he wasn’t intersted in a night time bottle that evening. Then, to my surprise, he turned away the next morning bottle and wanted out of the crib. He turned it away the morning after that. And that was that. Forever. Go figure :-) Banty
Response:
> I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > Frannie
With both children after about a year, I cut the milk gradually out of their night time bottle. DS voluntarily gave up the bottle and sippy cup at night completely at about 18 mos. DD (who is over two) just recently gave up the bottle for a sippy cup. We bought her a *special* night night sippy cup and she hasn’t wanted anything else. After a couple of weeks of making sure she had no desire for the bottle, we threw ‘em away. I think it is important not to force the issue but simply provide alternatives. Eventually, they work it out on their own. Sedona Mom to Kai (10) and Tori (2)
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > Frannie >Everyone in my family has had their kids off the bottle by a >year….however, I didn’t have to wean really at all. My daughter took right >to the sippy cup, and one day when she was about 11 months I gave her a >bottle and she handed it right back to me. I put the milk in the sippy cup >and she hasn’t had a bottle since! She’d started rejecting formula right >before then too….it was nice because she let *me* know when she was ready >to give up her bottle. >Hopefully her little brother will do the same! >Sherrie
aww..lucky you!..2 of my kids were also addicted to soothers too…it’s hard to break those habits..sometimes harder for the parent then the child I wish mine had let me know..I felt like quite the ogre taking away their bottles. The thing about my friend is..he & his wife both work full time and I think they feel bad trying to take away that warm bottle of milk from their daughter. I suppose some parents do that..but I think I put a bug in his ear by acting so surprised that the babywas still on the bottle tho..so who knows what will happen Frannie
Response:
I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages did/do you think a baby should be weaned? Frannie
Response:
> I have a friend who’s 2 year old still gets a bottle at bed time and > upon waking….and it has to be warm milk! Apparatly the daughter > refuses to use the sippy cups and makes " too many accidents" with > regular cups. I weaned my kids off the bottle by 18 months..and they > even drank the milk cold while they still had bottles….what ages > did/do you think a baby should be weaned? > Frannie
Everyone in my family has had their kids off the bottle by a year….however, I didn’t have to wean really at all. My daughter took right to the sippy cup, and one day when she was about 11 months I gave her a bottle and she handed it right back to me. I put the milk in the sippy cup and she hasn’t had a bottle since! She’d started rejecting formula right before then too….it was nice because she let *me* know when she was ready to give up her bottle. Hopefully her little brother will do the same! Sherrie — Momma to Madison Marie (10/18/00) and Nicholas Luke (10/17/01) Cafe Mom–Information, Humor and Inspiration For Moms, By Moms www.cafemom.net
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