My son has grown up with his stay at home Mom and myself. He is not spoiled, naturally generous, very kind and the joy of our life BUT I am growing concerned at his lack of ability to handle pain of any kind. This otherwise near perfect boy still goes to extremes crying when he gets an "owie". He has been challenged with a gymnastics course, swimming lessons, etc and is not spoiled at all. He does recieve  lots of love and has never been spanked because it was not necessary with him. I am worried that when he gets to kindergarten in September he will be bullied. Have thought of karate lessons. Any input would be appreciated. Lest anyone jump to the conclusion, we are not people that think a boy should never cry but this is a question of degree.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My son has grown up with his stay at home Mom and myself. He is not spoiled, > naturally generous, very kind and the joy of our life BUT I am growing > concerned at his lack of ability to handle pain of any kind. This otherwise > near perfect boy still goes to extremes crying when he gets an "owie". He > has been challenged with a gymnastics course, swimming lessons, etc and is > not spoiled at all. He does recieve  lots of love and has never been spanked > because it was not necessary with him. I am worried that when he gets to > kindergarten in September he will be bullied. Have thought of karate > lessons. Any input would be appreciated. Lest anyone jump to the conclusion, > we are not people that think a boy should never cry but this is a question > of degree.

I’m guessing that he’s 5 or 6, since he will be starting kindergarten?  All of that depends on the child and how you and your wife have handled his owies…. it is my experience that if you don’t make a "big deal" out of a little owie, then they won’t either.  What I usually do (and always have done) with my soon to be 5yr old daughter is let her gage my response.  I mean that if she doesn’t freak out, neither do I…or if I see that she is fine as in after a fall…then I will say ok — hop up and brush it off… Not at all saying that I am not right there checking…I just scale down my panic in order to teach her  that it’s not such a big deal and owies aren’t always a reason for hysterics…. On the other hand, if your son really isn’t used to getting owies…I mean if he doesn’t fall a lot or skin a knee or get a bruise (in other words, he’s more coordinated than most growing almost schoolers  then he wouldn’t know how to deal with the pain.  In that instance I am no help to you…I may be the mom of a girl, but damn she’s just as rough and tumble as any boy I’ve ever seen….owies are our life   lol!!!  Band-Aids and antibiotic cr

I’m sure this is a common problem, but some advice would be most useful, & maybe help to restore my sleep-deprived brain to its normal state. My 17-month old daughter usually goes to sleep in her cot at about 8:30 pm, after the normal soothing ritual of bath, stories, quiet play and so on. She used to sleep through until about 6 or 7, which was great. She doesn’t nap much in the day, & never has – maybe an hour or so. But for the last 5 or 6  weeks, she’s been waking once, twice or more in the middle of the night, crying loudly. The really tiring thing is that she takes an age to get back to sleep – often an hour or more. I pick her up & she goes limp on my shoulder. I lay her down in the cot & cover her up. Her breathing becomes regular, and she seems to fall asleep. As soon as I make any move to leave the room, she’s standing up again & crying, shaking the bars of the cot & so on. I’ve tried waiting, say, 10 minutes before leaving, but she catches me every time. I’ve also followed the advice of leaving her to cry for 5 to 10 minutes then coming back into the room. But that just makes it worse – she works herself up into such a frenzy of crying that it takes even longer to settle her. I don’t want to leave her more than 10 minutes: she appears capable of keeping up the noise until dawn if necessary. She’s had a recent medical check-up, so I’m certain that she’s healthy & well. During the day she’s active, well-adjusted & happy – which is more than can be said for her bleary-eyed parents Any advice gratefully received. –  Tony  -

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m sure this is a common problem, but some advice would be most useful, & > maybe help to restore my sleep-deprived brain to its normal state. > My 17-month old daughter usually goes to sleep in her cot at about 8:30 pm, > after the normal soothing ritual of bath, stories, quiet play and so on. She > used to sleep through until about 6 or 7, which was great. She doesn’t nap > much in the day, & never has – maybe an hour or so. > But for the last 5 or 6  weeks, she’s been waking once, twice or more in the > middle of the night, crying loudly. The really tiring thing is that she > takes an age to get back to sleep – often an hour or more. > I pick her up & she goes limp on my shoulder. I lay her down in the cot & > cover her up. Her breathing becomes regular, and she seems to fall asleep. > As soon as I make any move to leave the room, she’s standing up again & > crying, shaking the bars of the cot & so on. I’ve tried waiting, say, 10 > minutes before leaving, but she catches me every time. > I’ve also followed the advice of leaving her to cry for 5 to 10 minutes then > coming back into the room. But that just makes it worse – she works herself > up into such a frenzy of crying that it takes even longer to settle her. I > don’t want to leave her more than 10 minutes: she appears capable of keeping > up the noise until dawn if necessary. > She’s had a recent medical check-up, so I’m certain that she’s healthy & > well. During the day she’s active, well-adjusted & happy – which is more > than can be said for her bleary-eyed parents

Ain’t it just so frustrating, and especially when you are tired!  Your daughter may be having nightmares or at least bad dreams.  I think she is about the right age.  When my son did that I moved a small rocking chair into his room and would sit and rock him on my lap for a bit.  It seemed to sooth and break the cycle.  But, unfortunately or otherwise, each child is different and this may or may not be helpful to you. -Aula

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I’m sure this is a common problem, but some advice would be most useful, It is a common problem, but one we all wish we knew the answer to… My now 2 and a half year old did a similar thing, she all of a sudden began to wake during the night, I tried everything that was suggested to me until my doctor suggested breaking the cycle of her waking by trying some phenergan, it’s a very mild sedative for children, I found that this did work for her, but as you know, all children are different. but please see your doctor before trying this, as it may not be the right move for you…. good luck ! I know how you feel….. Michelle

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I’m sure this is a common problem, but some advice would be most useful, & maybe help to restore my sleep-deprived brain to its normal state. My 17-month old daughter usually goes to sleep in her cot at about 8:30 pm, after the normal soothing ritual of bath, stories, quiet play and so on. She used to sleep through until about 6 or 7, which was great. She doesn’t nap much in the day, & never has – maybe an hour or so. > Any advice gratefully received. > –  Tony  -

I have some of the same problem too. I know the crying thing usually works, it takes more than 1 hour in my case. Mine are still on the bottle, so just giving them a bottle of milk in the middle of the night will work. If not,  I just take my pillow and go to sleep next to my daughter on the floor. John http://www.homestead.com/robo224/sharenet.htm Before you buy.

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I had no end of problems with my little boy.  By 15 months I was getting up sometimes 5 or 6 times every night and I was so exhausted the only thing seemed to be to take him to bed with me.  Obviously that wasn’t a solution – only a bandaid. i ended up going to a place called the Queen Elizabeth Centre (Melbourne, Australia), which is a parenting help centre.  I ‘m sure there are others in many countries. I went in for 5 days and their advice to me was to set up a strict routine (at least to begin with) until good sleeping patterns were established.  The most crucial thing is that the child goes to sleep in the bed and not in someone’s arms – otherwise they wake up and are somewhere different to where they fell asleep which can be distressing for them. The bath, quiet time, story etc is really important. If the child wakes, go in, say matter of factly ‘it’s time for sleeping’, lay the child down (without picking up) and go out of the room.  Only wait 1-2 min. the first time and them increase by 2 min each time. Use a watch – it’s hard at first. Never go more than ten minutes unless the child is only whimpering – then DON"T go back in as it often just wakes them up when they were about to drop off.  It could take and hour or more the first couple times but it is amazing how quickly it works and the child knows you are never far away. For some people it may be a phase the child will ‘grow out of’, but children are creatures of habit, and my life changed dramatically once I started to get some sleep. Keep in mind that changes in routine can set things back a bit (don’t leave them to cry when they are sick), but it will only take one or two times to get back into it again. Another word of advice – it only works if you are ready and you stick to your guns Good luck Lisette

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m sure this is a common problem, but some advice would be most useful, & > maybe help to restore my sleep-deprived brain to its normal state. > My 17-month old daughter usually goes to sleep in her cot at about 8:30 pm, > after the normal soothing ritual of bath, stories, quiet play and so on. She > used to sleep through until about 6 or 7, which was great. She doesn’t nap > much in the day, & never has – maybe an hour or so. > But for the last 5 or 6  weeks, she’s been waking once, twice or more in the > middle of the night, crying loudly. The really tiring thing is that she > takes an age to get back to sleep – often an hour or more. > I pick her up & she goes limp on my shoulder. I lay her down in the cot & > cover her up. Her breathing becomes regular, and she seems to fall asleep. > As soon as I make any move to leave the room, she’s standing up again & > crying, shaking the bars of the cot & so on. I’ve tried waiting, say, 10 > minutes before leaving, but she catches me every time. > I’ve also followed the advice of leaving her to cry for 5 to 10 minutes then > coming back into the room. But that just makes it worse – she works herself > up into such a frenzy of crying that it takes even longer to settle her. I > don’t want to leave her more than 10 minutes: she appears capable of keeping > up the noise until dawn if necessary. > She’s had a recent medical check-up, so I’m certain that she’s healthy & > well. During the day she’s active, well-adjusted & happy – which is more > than can be said for her bleary-eyed parents > Any advice gratefully received. > –  Tony  -

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We had exactly the same problem (seems to be a common phase around > that age). What we did was: a- never leave her crying – respond as > quickly as possible when she begins to cry and before it works up into > serious wailing (we used a baby monitor so we could hear the first > whimpers), b- go into her room and soothe her without taking her out > of the crib (except in case of illness etc). Sometimes she was only > half awake and picking her up would only have awakened her more, plus > picking her up would enforce the crying and create an expectation of > playtime. I would lean over the crib and stroke her back/head, saying > in a soft voice, "its okay, mommy’s here…. lie down now…. its > sleepy time". Room would be dark and I never turned on lights. > Eventually she would lie down and I would continue stroking her until > she calmed and seemed to be asleep, then sat for a few minutes longer > without touching, then left quietly when she seemed asleep. > It lasted for a few weeks, on and off and then quit suddenly. Now she > is 22 months and never cries in the night unless she is ill. > –Lisa Bell

Lisa Many thanks – & thanks to the others above who replied. I shall try the soothing without taking her out of the cot – I can see the sense in that. Probably more reassuring is that everyone says it’s just a phase. Indeed, to confound the issue, the little darling slept through last night 8:00 pm to 6:30 am. I am quickly learning that children are nothing if not changeable. [OT - for the astrologically minded, she's got her Sun in Pisces, Cancer on the ascendent, with the Moon in her 1st house. Would seem to indicate she'll change more often than Madonna's wardrobe ] Again, many thanks. –  Tony  -

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We had exactly the same problem (seems to be a common phase around > that age). What we did was: a- never leave her crying – respond as > quickly as possible when she begins to cry and before it works up into > serious wailing (we used a baby monitor so we could hear the first > whimpers), b- go into her room and soothe her without taking her out > of the crib (except in case of illness etc). Sometimes she was only > half awake and picking her up would only have awakened her more, plus > picking her up would enforce the crying and create an expectation of > playtime. I would lean over the crib and stroke her back/head, saying > in a soft voice, "its okay, mommy’s here…. lie down now…. its > sleepy time". Room would be dark and I never turned on lights. > Eventually she would lie down and I would continue stroking her until > she calmed and seemed to be asleep, then sat for a few minutes longer > without touching, then left quietly when she seemed asleep. > It lasted for a few weeks, on and off and then quit suddenly. Now she > is 22 months and never cries in the night unless she is ill. > –Lisa Bell

This sounds perfect advice to me.  Well done. Annemarie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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We had exactly the same problem (seems to be a common phase around that age). What we did was: a- never leave her crying – respond as quickly as possible when she begins to cry and before it works up into serious wailing (we used a baby monitor so we could hear the first whimpers), b- go into her room and soothe her without taking her out of the crib (except in case of illness etc). Sometimes she was only half awake and picking her up would only have awakened her more, plus picking her up would enforce the crying and create an expectation of playtime. I would lean over the crib and stroke her back/head, saying in a soft voice, "its okay, mommy’s here…. lie down now…. its sleepy time". Room would be dark and I never turned on lights. Eventually she would lie down and I would continue stroking her until she calmed and seemed to be asleep, then sat for a few minutes longer without touching, then left quietly when she seemed asleep. It lasted for a few weeks, on and off and then quit suddenly. Now she is 22 months and never cries in the night unless she is ill. –Lisa Bell

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Gay birds of a feather parent together at Israeli zoo Dashik and Yahuda, two male vultures, have raised two baby birds  From Correspondent Jerrold Kessel JERUSALEM (CNN) — Zoo keepers involved in an ambitious breeding program for endangered Griffin vultures are getting a helping hand from a vulture couple that, ironically, doesn’t breed. Keepers noticed that Dashik and Yahuda, two male vultures at Jerusalem Biblical Zoo, had built a nest together and were mating. So they decided to give the couple an artificial egg to see what would happen. "They were sitting incubating perfectly," said the zoo’s head keeper, Itzik Yadid. "If they are incubating so good, sharing between the two of them, the next step will be obviously to give them a chick to raise." So far, Dashik and Yahuda have raised two baby birds, Diva and Adi Gordon, with results that exceeded expectations "We’re very proud of them. We think they’ve done a marvelous job," said bird keeper Sharon Sterling. "They’ve behaved extremely well, the best parents we’ve ever seen." Keepers had initially thought about separating Dashik and Yahuda and trying to bring in a female to create a heterosexual vulture couple. Dashik and Yahuda were given a chick to raise after they were given an artificial egg to incubate "And then we said, ‘Why should we do it? If they are together, if they are raising a chick together, why should we separate them?’" Yadid said. "So we decided to let them stay together and keep raising chicks together." There is a reason beyond mere curiosity for seeking parenting help from the gay vultures. Normally, female Griffin vultures lay only one egg a year. But if the egg is taken from the mother, she will lay a second egg, a process known as "double clutching." So by providing suitable surrogate parents for the eggs that are taken, bird keepers can increase the number of vultures that are bred. Griffin vultures, once a common sight in the Mideast, have nearly disappeared. The zoo is trying to reintroduce them through the breeding program.  Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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We had a pair of male Zebra finches that were together for over 10 years. They nested & "mated" regularly. No matter how many single females we put in the cage with them, they weren’t interested. We never tried giving them eggs to sit on though. They even died within a few months of each other. It was kind of sweet. –P Visit Melanie’s Room Science, animals and stuff for Kids http://www.interlog.com/~rees/melaniesroom

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Both our sun conures and lovebirds (all females) nest and "mate" regularly. They take turns sitting on the eggs and bring food to each other.  Meanwhile our Goffins (male and female) are strictly platonic.  I guess the breeder was right when she offered us Nick.  In the years he was with her (he’s 18 now) he only had one bird he was interested in…..Fred. Gayle and Chris <a href=http://www.angelfire.com/ny/gaydar/feathered.html>you can check out our flock here.

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This looks like a clear case of one of those "prison relationships", brought about by inadequate availability of a proper heterosexual mate. The male birds should be split up and put with proper female birds. I doubt that the babies they are raising will grow up to have proper behavior.    Ian Kerfoot    The Banyan Tree Homepage    http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/4287

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I hope that was said with your tongue planted firmly in your cheek. — Spanky "But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad." "How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here."

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> I hope that was said with your tongue planted firmly in your cheek.

So do I. — Marco -Voodoo Man For Hire- Auntie Emme: Hate Kansas, Hate the weather, taking the dog… Love, Dorothy.

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go get ‘um, J!! — Spanky "But I don’t want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can’t help that," said the Cat: "we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad." "How do you know I’m mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn’t have come here."

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Sure wish you guys would post the original message so those of us who haven’t seen it would know what you are talking about!  I’ve been on vacation and missed this one.  :-( — Mary Sparky’s Homepage is the place to go if you want to learn about the grey Congo!   "www.neta.com/~tarnold/sparky.html" "She was not quite what I would call refined, "She was not quite what I would call unrefined, "She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot." Mark Twain

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This looks like a clear case of one of those "prison relationships", brought > about by inadequate availability of a proper heterosexual mate. The male birds > should be split up and put with proper female birds. I doubt that the babies > they are raising will grow up to have proper behavior. >    Ian Kerfoot >    The Banyan Tree Homepage >    http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/4287

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>Sure wish you guys would post the original message so those of us who >haven’t seen it would know what you are talking about!  I’ve been on >vacation and missed this one.  :-( >– >Mary

Please let us know exactly when you were on vacation so that everything you missed can be reposted for you.  Would you like the reposts in chronological or alphabetical order? Better yet, try deja.com and put a little tiny-bit of effort into getting the original post, rather than have us hand feed it to your ever-widening fat ass. The  one, the only, the original Mr. Jynx ( MJ )

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> Sure wish you guys would post the original message so those of us who > haven’t seen it would know what you are talking about!  I’ve been on > vacation and missed this one.  :-(

Don’t worry, Mary.  I don’t think you missed much.  It was about a couple of bonded male birdies who are incubating some fertile eggs and they were labelled "gay".  What a crock!  I am the furthest thing from a gay basher ever born, but when people start calling critters "gay" and when they talk about critters "having sex" or "trying to breed my arm", I go ballistic. Andee

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>original post, rather than have us hand feed it to your ever-widening fat ass.

So how do you know her ass is fat? She could possibly have a skinny ass, you never know. Denise Lane The Busy Bride – Wedding Invitations, Accessories & More!

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> So how do you know her ass is fat? > She could possibly have a skinny ass, you never know.

It is the "ever widening" part that hit close to home!!!!!! (Besides, I have not heard anyone criticizing Jennifer Lopez’ big wide bubble butt! No men, that is!).   Andee

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> It is the "ever widening" part that hit close to home!!!!!! > (Besides, I have not heard anyone criticizing Jennifer Lopez’ > big wide bubble butt! No men, that is!).

You tell a man that he has a big ass and he’ll just tell you that you can’t drive a stake with a tack hammer.  <VBG> Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Andee

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> You tell a man that he has a big ass and he’ll just tell you that you can’t > drive a stake with a tack hammer.  <VBG> > Dan

I’d never heard that one.  I think you made it up just now! It’s hilarious.   Andee

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MJ has an ass for a head, so he doesn’t really have a fair perspective. Kellie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->original post, rather than have us hand feed it to your ever-widening fat ass. > So how do you know her ass is fat? > She could possibly have a skinny ass, you never know. > Denise Lane > The Busy Bride – Wedding Invitations, Accessories & More!

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Here’s an assicon for a wise ass:  (_o^^o_)  Perhaps we can start using this in place of his name when referring to him.  LOL — Mary Sparky’s Homepage is the place to go if you want to learn about the grey Congo!   "www.neta.com/~tarnold/sparky.html" "She was not quite what I would call refined, "She was not quite what I would call unrefined, "She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot." Mark Twain

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> MJ has an ass for a head, so he doesn’t really have a fair perspective. > Kellie > >original post, rather than have us hand feed it to your ever-widening fat ass. > So how do you know her ass is fat? > She could possibly have a skinny ass, you never know. > Denise Lane > The Busy Bride – Wedding Invitations, Accessories & More!

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Hello all, I have been offline for a couple of months and I’m wondering when this became such a forum for religion.  Not that I knock religion or anything, I just seem to see a lot of it.  I missed the parenting help we are all here for.  Maybe that is what we should all stick to.  Save religion for some other group.  But then again, I have thought the same thing about other topics as well.  Just my 2 cents.  I’m glad to be back reading this ng regularly anyway! Maureen

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>Hello all, I have been offline for a couple of months and I’m wondering when >this became such a forum for religion.      Not that I knock religion or >anything, I just seem to see a lot of it.  I missed the parenting help we are >all here for.  Maybe that is what we should all stick to.  Save religion for >some other group.  But then again, I have thought the same thing about other >topics as well.  Just my 2 cents.  I’m glad to be back reading this ng >regularly anyway!

Religion isn’t really off topic in a parenting ng. When Max, the resident troll first came in, it wasn’t obvious he was a troll.  Now we know "she" is a "he" and doing it for kicks.   When it comes to parenting and discussing children, there’s very little that should be considered off topic but everyone has the ability to skip the threads they don’t like/know anything about/etc. And welcome back Kendra http://www.geocities.com/heartland/lane/6516 *See my Valentines Day page!* — "If a man speaks in a forest, and there isn’t a woman around to hear him: Is he still wrong?"

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Hi —   If you are a new parent looking for all the support you can, then stop by the American Baby Chat room at parent soup.  Read all the details below. Wednesday, May 6th 12 p.m.- 1 p.m.at www.parentsoup.com Talk to Judith Nolte, Editor-In-Chief of American Baby Magazine! (pregnancycircle) This Month’s Topic:  "After Baby: Your Support Systems" The days and weeks following the birth of your child are both a wonderful and difficult time of physical and emotional adjustment.  Please join host Psbusyb123 and Judith Nolte to discuss how to plan for and get the support you’ll need  from family, friends, support groups and professionals. Five American Baby Gift Packs will be given away at random during this chat. Jeffrey DeMarrais Wiley Computer Publishnig

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I came across some helpful parenting seminars on AOL at BlackVoices.  They meet every other Thursday between 9 and 10, I believe.  I’ve gotten some good feedback… it has course info online before each session — that in and of itself could be helpful.

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I live in a townhouse complex and I am amazed at the number of parents that let their children run wild around here!  There’s one family in particular who have a *three* year old child that wanders all over the complex all day long by herself.  She’s always filthy, rarely wears shoes, etc.  There was even one day that the skies grew dark and the wind picked up and eventually thunder could be heard in the distance and I saw her wandering about outside.  I told her to go home because it was going to rain – a storm was coming.  She wouldn’t go and no one came looking for her.  (I couldn’t take her home because my daughter was napping.)  I sent one of my older kids to find her six year old sister to come take her home.  What’s wrong with these parents!!  As if all this isn’t bad enough, the mother just gave birth to another girl (making a total of three kids in this family) that I now see the six year old pushing around in a baby carriage with the mother nowhere in sight!!!!  The other day the three year old was sitting on the edge of the carriage with the baby in it and the six year old was chatting with her friend paying no attention at all!  (Yes, I went over and took the three year old off the carriage.)   This is so frustrating to watch!  I wonder if the mother’s pregnant again.  I figure she could be and why not?  It’s easy to have lots of kids when you don’t care for any of them. Rachel, frustrated

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If it seems that the parents are negligent to the point of danger, you could place a call to Child Protective Services who could make a visit and see if the children are in a dangerous situation.   Or put an anonymous flyer about parenting classes in her mailbox.  Or, perhaps as a first step, you could get to know the mother (unless she seems like a dangerous person herself) and maybe set up a time that she could come visit you with her kids (like a playdate) and while the three year old is there, perhaps say, "Oh, my goodness, you’ve got something on your face."  Then to the mother, "Do you mind if I wash her face?   Looks like she’s been playing pretty hard."   Sometimes just an example of good parenting helps you learn.    I have one sister who never finished high school and she has three kids.  She gets so overwhelmed that for a few months I never heard her say anything nice to her kids; it was all criticism.  I "made up" a magazine article I told her I read that says that if you say one negative thing to your child, you should find two nice things to say to him.  Then I laughed and said, "Boy it sure is hard to do that sometimes, huh?"     I’m sure you can get a feeling for what kind of help your neighbor needs.  Good luck.

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>I live in a townhouse complex and I am amazed at the number of parents >that let their children run wild around here!  There’s one family in >particular who have a *three* year old child that wanders all over the >complex all day long by herself.  She’s always filthy, rarely wears <snip> >six year old pushing around in a baby carriage with the mother nowhere >in sight!!!!  The other day the three year old was sitting on the edge >of the carriage with the baby in it and the six year old was chatting >with her friend paying no attention at all!  (Yes, I went over and >took the three year old off the carriage.)  

Is there really any adult home to watch them?  I just moved out of a complex where the same problem was rampant.  In fact, 3 weeks before I moved, the apartment next door burned out (along with the one upstairs from it) because there were 7 – SEVEN – kids ages 12 and under playing with fireworks.  No adults around.  (I was lucky, my apt only got smoke damaged.)  The only reason they didn’t have those kids taken away is that technically (by state law) the 12 yr old was old enough to babysit.  Yeah right, 6 other kids??? I know it sounds harsh, but you might check with the state child welfare agency and find out what the laws are on ages for kids to be left alone.  If there is no one home with those kids, child welfare has the right to investigate and remove the children if neglect is found.  Yes, I know it would be better for the parents to take charge. But if they aren’t going to provide care, then isn’t it better that SOMEONE does? Ann

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