Question:
;Or how about a moderated newsgroup? I dunno. I have a thing about moderated newsgroups. To me, a moderator inhibits real communication, even if it does eliminate all of the line noise from trolls and SPAMmers. I’d rather just have a newsgroup devoted to the topic at hand and killfile anybody outside of the discussion. That’s one of the nice things about my newsreader; I can killfile a person either globally or on a newsgroup-by-newsgroup basis. Is mise le meas, | Darryl L. Pierce Alt.Atheism Member #1142, Death ‘Piper of the BAAWA | | Visit me @ http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/1335/ | | …you’re breathing so I guess you’re still alive… | | Unsolicited email to this address is acceptance of a $500 per day | | storage expense to be paid within 30 days of the sending of the email. |
Response:
How about one of these…. Penis Terrorizes School or Penis Blamed for 13 Deaths or Teenager Blames Penis for Violent Rampage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Had it ever occured to you that the >circumcision of children may be CAUSING problems such as disrespect >and violence ? > here it comes, folks….now violence in our childrens schools will be blamed on > the dreaded "CIRCD PENIS!!!"….i wonder how they would print a headline in a > paper about that? 
> melissa, mommy to Alex, happily cut at birth
Response:
> Kendra, > Am I the only one that is now having visions of some new, weird > slasher flick?? > Georga
but they wouldn’t name the main character ‘jason’ or whatever some of the other ones have been. instead it would be something like ‘mr. happy’ or some other ‘cute’ name. now that would be weird. sleeper << clip >> Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > >To all you who think Circ discussions are irrelevant to this and > other > > >parenting newsgroups are crazy — there are many paretns out there > who have > > >questions about intact sons. Don’t discriminate against them — it > seems > > >like some of you who are complaining about circ posts are the ones > who are > > >cutting your little boys. I guess you dont like to hear the truth > about > > >how awful it is. > > I guess she can’t except the fact that America is a democracy, in > which parents > > are the legal medical guardians of their children. > Except there is no medical indication to perfrom circumcision as per > the AAP: http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/nc-press.htm > OK, Hummppff lets let the Mom’s look at the cosmetic beauty of uncircumcised > penises at sexually mutilated. Com. > Warning only look if you have a strong stomach. > http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/33.htm
I followed the above link and found pictures of healthy normal intact penises, nothing grotesque there. Centure your disdain for the natural unmutiliated penis is more than evident, even to the casual reader. The fact that the penises pictured are intact and have not been subjected to sharp cutting instruments must be a severe disappointment to you. The human body is fine just the way it is, nature doesn’t need any surgical tinkering on the healthy natural foreskin. If adults wish to have their genitals mutilated, fine, their loss, however this unnecessary surgical should not be inflicted on infants whether they are female or male. > The stupidity of showing mothers these hideous appendages is BIZARRE for > those allegedly attempting to save them.
The stupidity of admitting how much you hate the natural body and how much you enjoy the maiming aspect of circumcision is even more "bizarre". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
Kendra, Am I the only one that is now having visions of some new, weird slasher flick?? Georga – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> This is the solutions newsgroup. Had it ever occured to you that the >> circumcision of children may be CAUSING problems such as disrespect >> and violence ? >No, it hasn’t. MY penis doesn’t leave my body and run around with a >hockey mask and a pickaxe late at night. With the possible exception of >Baywatch, I am in full control of my thingy – and the rest of my body. >If I show disrespect, it’s because I *have* disrespect. If I am >violent, it’s because there’s something to be violent about. My >ding-dong doesn’t control my brain, it’s the other way around. Maybe >it’s different for you and your sexual organs. > Lol, Jack, I’ve been laughing for the last 20 minutes. > Very well put. > Kendra > "Outlandish" and Proud! > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lane/6516 > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Gallery/1796
Response:
> ;I DO post there too — but my point is, Im a parent and sometimes its nice > ;to hear from other parents of intact sons. Most of the people who post on > ;that newsgroup are single men arguing over a foreskin. > Then perhaps starting up a new newsgroup called alt.circumcision.support or > something similar is in order? That’s, in my opinion, far too volatile a subject > for a general newsgroup like this (a.p.s). > Is mise le meas,
Or how about a moderated newsgroup?
Response:
;I DO post there too — but my point is, Im a parent and sometimes its nice ;to hear from other parents of intact sons. Most of the people who post on ;that newsgroup are single men arguing over a foreskin. Then perhaps starting up a new newsgroup called alt.circumcision.support or something similar is in order? That’s, in my opinion, far too volatile a subject for a general newsgroup like this (a.p.s). Is mise le meas, | Darryl L. Pierce Alt.Atheism Member #1142, Death ‘Piper of the BAAWA | | Visit me @ http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/1335/ | | …you’re breathing so I guess you’re still alive… | | Unsolicited email to this address is acceptance of a $500 per day | | storage expense to be paid within 30 days of the sending of the email. |
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is the solutions newsgroup. Had it ever occured to you that the > circumcision of children may be CAUSING problems such as disrespect > and violence ? > No, it hasn’t. MY penis doesn’t leave my body and run around with a > hockey mask and a pickaxe late at night. With the possible exception of > Baywatch, I am in full control of my thingy – and the rest of my body. > If I show disrespect, it’s because I *have* disrespect. If I am > violent, it’s because there’s something to be violent about. My > ding-dong doesn’t control my brain, it’s the other way around. Maybe > it’s different for you and your sexual organs. > — Jack Tarkaan Kalamazoo,
Michigan Dear Sirs, I came to America when I was 16 and would like to share some of my observations I made between European society’s treatment of youth and America’s treatment of youth. I am now 34. I grew up in Austria and Switzerland and believe very much that the problem with America’s youth is caused by the way young people are treated by society. In Austria and Switzerland the concept of com- munity first, the state/canton second, and thirdly federal government has been applied to the structure of their governing principles. It is not an unknown concept to America that the strength of the smallest element of society, the family, defines the strength of society as a whole. It should follow that the strength of the next smallest element, the community immediately surrounding the family, should be the second most important building block of a society. In America the governing process is from the top down – i.e. Federal government , states, community, family, and finally the individual. In this system the governing process actually prevents true community/social spirit from forming. The individual’s opinions are divided by the 278million people living in America and thus people have lost the ability to structure their surroundings in a manner which befits the individual community. As is known, the federal government is mainly influenced by special interest groups such as the bible-swinging ‘religous’ right. Groups such as this have used their influence to push the government into creating laws which attempt to FORCE people and communities along an overly idealistic path. The end result they are preaching is a good thing, but can only be achieved through natural social evolution. Trying to force these ends through laws and abusive enforcement tactics is actually preventing this evolution from occuring. People need to be able to live out their lives in a natural way, instead of being forced to abide by government imposed social experiments. They must also have the ability to allow their youth to make the life experiences needed to prepare themselves for adulthood. In Austria a person is officially recognized as a ‘young adult’ at the age of 14. He is given more liberties and responsibilities in law such as being able to choose his religion without parental consent, curfews are extended, he can drive a motorized bicycle, and make decisions about his sexuality. At 16 one is given more liberties and responsibilities such as being able to drive a larger motocycle, curfews are dropped, one is legally responsible if one commits a crime, and may consume beer and wine at pubs (no hard stuff). (I came to America when I was 16 and noticed that people are not allowed to consume beer until 21 years of age. But when 16 year olds managed to get to a party they would drink themselves into a stupor instead of just having a couple of social drinks with friends as we did in Austria. This, in my opinion, teaches people to ‘binge drink’ and is probably one of the major reasons America has one of the highest alcohol addiction rates in the western world.). In this system the young adults are able to congregate in public places such as parks, restaurants, discos, spa facilities, lake swimming areas, mountain trails, and designated youth facilities without the need for parental or police scrutiny, as people have been raised with the knowledge that they will be required to behave responsibly in these permitted situations. In these situations people can interact and live out their thoughts and feelings and obtain feedback from their general peer population as to whether their acts are accepted or not. This is natural social evolution in its’ esscence. Parental or police interference prevents this natural phenomenon from occuring and is only required in extreme cases of violence or obvious self-destructive behaviour. In Europe, these young adults are treated as just such, young adults. They are not belittled by society by being called ’children’ and are included in conversations with adults as equals.The European way of treating young people as ‘young adults’ gives them good self esteem. It also gives them a sense of being in control of their own lives and of being individually noticed for who they are. In comparison, a major problem with American society, as I see it, is that people are treated like children too late in life. In the dictionary, a child is defined as a person between infancy and the BEGINNING of puberty. In a New England Journal of Medicine study of 13,000 girls around this country, on average girls entered puberty at the age of 10 with puberty lasting around two years. For boys it started later at 12 and ended at 14. As a result, calling a 16 year old a ‘child’ is not only technically wrong but also morally wrong, as it belittles the young adult involved. Calling young people ‘children’ until the age of 18 causes society to treat them like children until that age. By not allowing them to make their own decisions and preventing them from making the life experiences they should be making around the age of 16, they are forced into emotional isolation with no outlet for their thoughts and feelings. This anomaly about American society compounds the feeling of discrimmination against them, it enfuriates and frustrates them to the point of wanting to lash out at the source of those bad feelings: society as a whole !!! The childish treatment of young adults in America is a direct result of the ‘moralistic’ right wing trying to impose its’ social views on the rest of society. As a result of the view that a person is a ‘child’ until the age of 18, people are raised in a manner which prevents them from making mature decisions at an ealier age. This social practice is unique to America and should be considered when analyzing the problems with America’s population of young adults. Finally, another anomaly about American society is the widespread (~85%) practice of infant male genital mutilation (circumcision). A study I read says that this practice causes a 70-80% loss of feeling in the male genitalia due to daily contact with clothing and the environment in general. This lack of feeling represses psycho-sexual developement and therefore leads to a general feeling of dissatifaction amoung young males, causing them to seek stimulation externally (i.e. loud music, narcissistic behaviour, violence, etc.). In not being able to live out their lives in young adulthood and compounding this feeling of isolation by lowered sexual stimulation in the genitalia, their outlook on life tends to be to be hopeless. Only the muslims, the jews and the Americans pratice this surgical procedure. One has to think about its’ ramifications ! Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
> >Had it ever occured to you that the >circumcision of children may be CAUSING problems such as disrespect >and violence ? > here it comes, folks….now violence in our childrens schools will be blamed on > the dreaded "CIRCD PENIS!!!"….i wonder how they would print a headline in a > paper about that? > melissa, mommy to Alex, happily cut at birth
Does this look happy to you ? http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/post1.htm http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/post2.htm http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/post3.htm http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/post4.htm Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
>Had it ever occured to you that the >circumcision of children may be CAUSING problems such as disrespect >and violence ?
here it comes, folks….now violence in our childrens schools will be blamed on the dreaded "CIRCD PENIS!!!"….i wonder how they would print a headline in a paper about that? melissa, mommy to Alex, happily cut at birth
Response:
> >Had it ever occured to you that the >circumcision of children may be CAUSING problems such as disrespect >and violence ? > here it comes, folks….now violence in our childrens schools will be blamed on > the dreaded "CIRCD PENIS!!!"….i wonder how they would print a headline in a > paper about that? > melissa, mommy to Alex, happily cut at birth
Dear Sirs, I came to America when I was 16 and would like to share some of my observations I made between European society’s treatment of youth and America’s treatment of youth. I am now 34. I grew up in Austria and Switzerland and believe very much that the problem with America’s youth is caused by the way young people are treated by society. In Austria and Switzerland the concept of com- munity first, the state/canton second, and thirdly federal government has been applied to the structure of their governing principles. It is not an unknown concept to America that the strength of the smallest element of society, the family, defines the strength of society as a whole. It should follow that the strength of the next smallest element, the community immediately surrounding the family, should be the second most important building block of a society. In America the governing process is from the top down – i.e. Federal government , states, community, family, and finally the individual. In this system the governing process actually prevents true community/social spirit from forming. The individual’s opinions are divided by the 278million people living in America and thus people have lost the ability to structure their surroundings in a manner which befits the individual community. As is known, the federal government is mainly influenced by special interest groups such as the bible-swinging ‘religous’ right. Groups such as this have used their influence to push the government into creating laws which attempt to FORCE people and communities along an overly idealistic path. The end result they are preaching is a good thing, but can only be achieved through natural social evolution. Trying to force these ends through laws and abusive enforcement tactics is actually preventing this evolution from occuring. People need to be able to live out their lives in a natural way, instead of being forced to abide by government imposed social experiments. They must also have the ability to allow their youth to make the life experiences needed to prepare themselves for adulthood. In Austria a person is officially recognized as a ‘young adult’ at the age of 14. He is given more liberties and responsibilities in law such as being able to choose his religion without parental consent, curfews are extended, he can drive a motorized bicycle, and make decisions about his sexuality. At 16 one is given more liberties and responsibilities such as being able to drive a larger motocycle, curfews are dropped, one is legally responsible if one commits a crime, and may consume beer and wine at pubs (no hard stuff). (I came to America when I was 16 and noticed that people are not allowed to consume beer until 21 years of age. But when 16 year olds managed to get to a party they would drink themselves into a stupor instead of just having a couple of social drinks with friends as we did in Austria. This, in my opinion, teaches people to ‘binge drink’ and is probably one of the major reasons America has one of the highest alcohol addiction rates in the western world.). In this system the young adults are able to congregate in public places such as parks, restaurants, discos, spa facilities, lake swimming areas, mountain trails, and designated youth facilities without the need for parental or police scrutiny, as people have been raised with the knowledge that they will be required to behave responsibly in these permitted situations. In these situations people can interact and live out their thoughts and feelings and obtain feedback from their general peer population as to whether their acts are accepted or not. This is natural social evolution in its’ esscence. Parental or police interference prevents this natural phenomenon from occuring and is only required in extreme cases of violence or obvious self-destructive behaviour. In Europe, these young adults are treated as just such, young adults. They are not belittled by society by being called ’children’ and are included in conversations with adults as equals.The European way of treating young people as ‘young adults’ gives them good self esteem. It also gives them a sense of being in control of their own lives and of being individually noticed for who they are. In comparison, a major problem with American society, as I see it, is that people are treated like children too late in life. In the dictionary, a child is defined as a person between infancy and the BEGINNING of puberty. In a New England Journal of Medicine study of 13,000 girls around this country, on average girls entered puberty at the age of 10 with puberty lasting around two years. For boys it started later at 12 and ended at 14. As a result, calling a 16 year old a ‘child’ is not only technically wrong but also morally wrong, as it belittles the young adult involved. Calling young people ‘children’ until the age of 18 causes society to treat them like children until that age. By not allowing them to make their own decisions and preventing them from making the life experiences they should be making around the age of 16, they are forced into emotional isolation with no outlet for their thoughts and feelings. This anomaly about American society compounds the feeling of discrimmination against them, it enfuriates and frustrates them to the point of wanting to lash out at the source of those bad feelings: society as a whole !!! The childish treatment of young adults in America is a direct result of the ‘moralistic’ right wing trying to impose its’ social views on the rest of society. As a result of the view that a person is a ‘child’ until the age of 18, people are raised in a manner which prevents them from making mature decisions at an ealier age. This social practice is unique to America and should be considered when analyzing the problems with America’s population of young adults. Finally, another anomaly about American society is the widespread (~85%) practice of infant male genital mutilation (circumcision). A study I read says that this practice causes a 70-80% loss of feeling in the male genitalia due to daily contact with clothing and the environment in general. This lack of feeling represses psycho-sexual developement and therefore leads to a general feeling of dissatifaction amoung young males, causing them to seek stimulation externally (i.e. loud music, narcissistic behaviour, violence, etc.). In not being able to live out their lives in young adulthood and compounding this feeling of isolation by lowered sexual stimulation in the genitalia, their outlook on life tends to be to be hopeless. Only the muslims, the jews and the Americans pratice this surgical procedure. One has to think about its’ ramifications ! Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->To all you who think Circ discussions are irrelevant to this and other >parenting newsgroups are crazy — there are many paretns out there who have >questions about intact sons. Don’t discriminate against them — it seems >like some of you who are complaining about circ posts are the ones who are >cutting your little boys. I guess you dont like to hear the truth about >how awful it is. > I guess she can’t except the fact that America is a democracy, in which parents > are the legal medical guardians of their children.
Except there is no medical indication to perfrom circumcision as per the AAP: http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/nc-press.htm Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >To all you who think Circ discussions are irrelevant to this and > other > >parenting newsgroups are crazy — there are many paretns out there > who have > >questions about intact sons. Don’t discriminate against them — it > seems > >like some of you who are complaining about circ posts are the ones > who are > >cutting your little boys. I guess you dont like to hear the truth > about > >how awful it is. > I guess she can’t except the fact that America is a democracy, in > which parents > are the legal medical guardians of their children. > Except there is no medical indication to perfrom circumcision as per > the AAP: http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/nc-press.htm
OK, Hummppff lets let the Mom’s look at the cosmetic beauty of uncircumcised penises at sexually mutilated. Com. Warning only look if you have a strong stomach. http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/33.htm The stupidity of showing mothers these hideous appendages is BIZARRE for those allegedly attempting to save them. > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To all you who think Circ discussions are irrelevant to this and other > parenting newsgroups are crazy — there are many paretns out there > who have > questions about intact sons. Don’t discriminate against them — it > seems > like some of you who are complaining about circ posts are the ones > who are > cutting your little boys. I guess you dont like to hear the truth > about > how awful it is. > — > Kari and Justin > http://members.xoom.com/jstkaylie > Good for you girl – Kari. Go girl go.
Hummppff and Kari and Justin, I will give this one more go. Circumcision is an issue related to parenting and if the thread originates here in a.p.s. I see no problem with it however some parenting issues are huge ie. spanking and long ago some bright people realised this and decided to set up a specific newsgroup dedicated to spanking so that the more general parenting groups ie. a.p.s. and misc.kids weren’t over-run by these threads. Not everyone has filtering capabilities on their machine and these subject specific newsgroups is a way to keep everyone happy. Seeing as there is a newsgroup dedicated to circumcision, what is so wrong with posting circumcision queries there? Leonie.
Response:
>> This is the solutions newsgroup. Had it ever occured to you that the > circumcision of children may be CAUSING problems such as disrespect > and violence ? >No, it hasn’t. MY penis doesn’t leave my body and run around with a >hockey mask and a pickaxe late at night. With the possible exception of >Baywatch, I am in full control of my thingy – and the rest of my body. >If I show disrespect, it’s because I *have* disrespect. If I am >violent, it’s because there’s something to be violent about. My >ding-dong doesn’t control my brain, it’s the other way around. Maybe >it’s different for you and your sexual organs.
Lol, Jack, I’ve been laughing for the last 20 minutes. Very well put. Kendra "Outlandish" and Proud! http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lane/6516 http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Gallery/1796
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To all you who think Circ discussions are irrelevant to this and other > parenting newsgroups are crazy — there are many paretns out there who have > questions about intact sons. Don’t discriminate against them — it seems > like some of you who are complaining about circ posts are the ones who are > cutting your little boys. I guess you dont like to hear the truth about > how awful it is. > — > Kari and Justin > http://members.xoom.com/jstkaylie
Good for you girl – Kari. Go girl go. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To all you who think Circ discussions are irrelevant to this and other > parenting newsgroups are crazy — there are many paretns out there who have > questions about intact sons. > There’s a newsgroup for them too. It’s called alt.circ. See you there! > …well, maybe not. > — Jack Tarkaan Kalamazoo, Michigan > — http://www.bigfoot.com/~tarkaan
> — NO UNSOLICITED E-MAIL AT THIS ADDRESS – Respect privacy – NO SPAM!!!!
This is the solutions newsgroup. Had it ever occured to you that the circumcision of children may be CAUSING problems such as disrespect and violence ? Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
You do have a right to post whatever you want. And I agree that circ discussions do have a place here. My only complaint is that they come into threads that have nothing to do with circ. One thread on another ng was about how a pregnant lady could ease her hemrhoids (sp?) and it got turned into a circ thread. That’s just out and out ridiculous. Another complaint is starting 15 other threads about circ. Why can’t it be containted to 3-4 threads?? Circ does have it’s place in a.p.s. but in a limited quantity. If you’re going to go into an all out war about whether it’s right or wrong that needs to be done in alt.circ. Lisa Mom to Kelsey (3) & TTC #2 — http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Bluffs/9283
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To all you who think Circ discussions are irrelevant to this and other > parenting newsgroups are crazy — there are many paretns out there who have > questions about intact sons. Don’t discriminate against them — it seems > like some of you who are complaining about circ posts are the ones who are > cutting your little boys. I guess you dont like to hear the truth about > how awful it is. > — > Kari and Justin > http://members.xoom.com/jstkaylie
Response:
> To all you who think Circ discussions are irrelevant to this and > other parenting newsgroups are crazy — there are many paretns out > there who have questions about intact sons. Don’t discriminate > against them — it seems like some of you who are complaining about > circ posts are the ones who are cutting your little boys. I guess > you dont like to hear the truth about how awful it is. > — > Kari and Justin
<< sig clip >> i’ll take a different tack than others have in responding to your post. and i write this without having read any of your other posts to the group (i choose not to read the ‘circ’ threads.) sure you can "post whatever (you) want". but if you continually post about the same subject and post with the attitude that your subject line seems to imply, well, don’t be surprised if your words and message come to mean less and less to the regulars of this group. that, of course, is just MHO…. sleeper Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
I may be wrong but I haven’t noticed one single question about circumcision originating from this group recently. All the circ. noise has come from these cross posts that I feel we have every right to complain about. Parenting solutions means just that, not parenting Opinions which is what a discussion about circumcision is really about. I don’t agree with it either but I don’t expect or even care if other people have a problem with my opinion. That is their opinion but this topic certainly does not belong here in parenting solutions where people just want some good old-fashioned advice. No-one is discriminating against anyone here, we are just voicing our own right to have a newsgroup which isn’t infested with off-topic discussions about subjects based around individual opinions with no solutions on the horizon. Leonie. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > To all you who think Circ discussions are irrelevant to this and other > parenting newsgroups are crazy — there are many paretns out there who have > questions about intact sons. Don’t discriminate against them — it seems > like some of you who are complaining about circ posts are the ones who are > cutting your little boys. I guess you dont like to hear the truth about > how awful it is. > — > Kari and Justin > http://members.xoom.com/jstkaylie
Response:
> Hello my name is Tristan, I’m 16 Years old, from Australia and I would > like to ask a few questions. > In this time of people telling us to turn back the clock in a cultural > sense, I seems in my home country male infant circumcisions > seem to making a come back. Years after circumcision rates dropped to > around 10-20%. Do you think that this coming back > of male circumcisions seem to be part of growing conserativism in the > community in English speaking countries. > I give a newspaper story that might explain a few things from a Sydney > Newspaper.
This is of course very interesting. I wonder why our Sean did not bring this to our attention? You see he/they have been telling all and sundry that circumcision is dead is Oz. Do you think he is hiding something from us? You see we have also heard that circumcision in Korea has reached about 90%. Not much said about that either? hehe Want a theory on all this? Well when a majority circumcising population is told that circumcision has no value, that the 4skin has value and that the health risks relating to the 4skin are overstated they have no point of reference by which to judge this information. This is what is happening currently in the US. It is only when the number of uncircumcised boys rises and with it the corresponding number of 4skin delinquencies that people start to question the 4skin sales pitch. These people tend to begin making the circumcision decision based on current knowledge and experience. And not for some now somewhat vague historical reasons (hey, why do we do this?). They would be unlikely to swallow the crap being sold around here about the 4skin. I would not call it conservatism. More like health based activism. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Sun-Herald, April 25, 1999 > BABIES AT THE CUTTING EDGE > Circumcision of male infants is making a comeback > reports Martin Chulov > After years of declining rates in Australia and opposition to the > procedure from doctors, a growing number of parents are asking > for their baby boys to be circumcised. And, for the first time, the > Royal Australian College of Surgeons has formed a policy > position – it does not oppose the procedure. [Note: The name is actually > the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons] > Thirty years ago more than 60 per cent of Australian males were > routinely circumcised; that figure has fallen dramatically to less > than 10 per cent of male babies born. However, hospitals have reported a > recent surge in requests for the procedure, which is > typically performed when baby boys are about seven days old. A report > released recently showed that pediatricians were > receiving requests from parents to circumcise up to 20 per cent of > newborn boys. > The College of Surgeons said performing the procedure was at the > discretion of parents and could be performed for religious, > cultural, medical or social reasons. It said it should be performed only > by "a competent operator… under sterile conditions > designed to minimise hazards… using appropriate anaesthetic". > The procedure is leading to widespread division among GPs and medical > lobby groups with the Australian College of Pediatrics > saying circumcision should not be performed until babies are at least > six months. It said "neonatal male circumcision has no > medical indication. It is a traumatic procedure performed without > anaesthesia to remove a normal functional and protective > prepuce". > The Australian Medical Association (AMA) opposes routine circumcision > and will only endorse it on "therapeutic grounds". > AMA NSW president Peter Thursby said: "And then we would need to be > convinced of the reasons for exposing > seven-day-old infants to this." Dr Thursby said Australians’ access to > hygiene reduced the risks of penile cancers or diseases > which were associated with non-circumcised men in some first and second > world countries (sic). "Penile carcinoma rates have > fallen dramatically in Australia over the past 50 years and are > continuing to do so", Dr Thursby said. > But Professor Brian Morris fron the University of Sydney’s Physiology > Department claims, in a new book, that "there are > benefits to be had from the procedure at any age". Dr Morris says lack > of circumcision is responsible for increasing the rates of > urinary tract infection by up to 12 times and offers increased exposure > to penile cancers. He also says it increases the risk of > acquiring the HIV virus and other sexually transmitted diseases.
> Hello my name is Tristan, I’m 16 Years old, from Australia and I would > like to ask a few questions. > In this time of people telling us to turn back the clock in a cultural > sense, I seems in my home country male infant circumcisions > seem to making a come back. Years after circumcision rates dropped to > around 10-20%. Do you think that this coming back > of male circumcisions seem to be part of growing conserativism in the > community in English speaking countries. > I give a newspaper story that might explain a few things from a Sydney > Newspaper.
This is of course very interesting. I wonder why our Sean did not bring this to our attention? You see he/they have been telling all and sundry that circumcision is dead is Oz. Do you think he is hiding something from us? You see we have also heard that circumcision in Korea has reached about 90%. Not much said about that either? hehe Want a theory on all this? Well when a majority circumcising population is told that circumcision has no value, that the 4skin has value and that the health risks relating to the 4skin are overstated they have no point of reference by which to judge this information. This is what is happening currently in the US. It is only when the number of uncircumcised boys rises and with it the corresponding number of 4skin delinquencies that people start to question the 4skin sales pitch. These people tend to begin making the circumcision decision based on current knowledge and experience. And not for some now somewhat vague historical reasons (hey, why do we do this?). They would be unlikely to swallow the crap being sold around here about the 4skin. I would not call it conservatism. More like health based activism. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Sun-Herald, April 25, 1999 > BABIES AT THE CUTTING EDGE > Circumcision of male infants is making a comeback > reports Martin Chulov > After years of declining rates in Australia and opposition to the > procedure from doctors, a growing number of parents are asking > for their baby boys to be circumcised. And, for the first time, the > Royal Australian College of Surgeons has formed a policy > position – it does not oppose the procedure. [Note: The name is actually > the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons] > Thirty years ago more than 60 per cent of Australian males were > routinely circumcised; that figure has fallen dramatically to less > than 10 per cent of male babies born. However, hospitals have reported a > recent surge in requests for the procedure, which is > typically performed when baby boys are about seven days old. A report > released recently showed that pediatricians were > receiving requests from parents to circumcise up to 20 per cent of > newborn boys. > The College of Surgeons said performing the procedure was at the > discretion of parents and could be performed for religious, > cultural, medical or social reasons. It said it should be performed only > by "a competent operator… under sterile conditions > designed to minimise hazards… using appropriate anaesthetic". > The procedure is leading to widespread division among GPs and medical > lobby groups with the Australian College of Pediatrics > saying circumcision should not be performed until babies are at least > six months. It said "neonatal male circumcision has no > medical indication. It is a traumatic procedure performed without > anaesthesia to remove a normal functional and protective > prepuce". > The Australian Medical Association (AMA) opposes routine circumcision > and will only endorse it on "therapeutic grounds". > AMA NSW president Peter Thursby said: "And then we would need to be > convinced of the reasons for exposing > seven-day-old infants to this." Dr Thursby said Australians’ access to > hygiene reduced the risks of penile cancers or diseases > which were associated with non-circumcised men in some first and second > world countries (sic). "Penile carcinoma rates have > fallen dramatically in Australia over the past 50 years and are > continuing to do so", Dr Thursby said. > But Professor Brian Morris fron the University of Sydney’s Physiology > Department claims, in a new book, that "there are > benefits to be had from the procedure at any age". Dr Morris says lack > of circumcision is responsible for increasing the rates of > urinary tract infection by up to 12 times and offers increased exposure > to penile cancers. He also says it increases the risk of > acquiring the HIV virus and other sexually transmitted diseases.
Response:
There are many people who have questions about repairing their cars. That doesn’t mean the messages belong in this ng. Circ discussions are irrelevant only when the members of this newsgroup did not post the message or question AND when members of this newsgroup do not reply to the messages posted. A good example is the thread that is currently going on by a parent who wants to know how to respond to others who dissagree with her decision to leave her son intact. She posted the message in this newsgroup and received many good replies from others in this newsgroup. That thread belongs here. However, there are a large number of cross posts from messages that did not originate on this ng. And people from this ng are not replying to them. All those messages are doing is turning people away from this ng so the information you want to out to everyone is actually getting out to fewer and fewer people as a result of the cross posting. If you feel there is a gap in the information in this ng, then it would be far more successful to work *with* the members of this ng to help find a way to bridge that gap. Forcing it upon people who are not interested does not work. People just skip the messages without reading them anyway. All I am getting out of the cross posting is that there are a group of people who are so blinded by their desire to get their point across to others that they are willing to be disrespectful to others in the process. When I do not respect the people posting the message, I also do not respect their point of view. To be honest, most of the problem with this whole issue comes from the manner in which some members of alt.circumcision are being rude and controlling in that ng. It turns people away who really would like more information on the subject. People in general are repelled by fighting. Spilling the fights into another ng is not going to accomplish anything other than turn people away from that ng as well. What needs to be done is to either get alt.circumcision cleaned up (which is what we are trying to do in this ng) or to start another ng with a charter that can stop that kind of fighting before the new ng is destroyed. Take Care! Vicki Surratt Proud Mom of Kathy (6) and Jenny (9)! My website has moved! Please note the new address: http://www.webcom.com/vicki/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > To all you who think Circ discussions are irrelevant to this and other > parenting newsgroups are crazy — there are many paretns out there who have > questions about intact sons. Don’t discriminate against them — it seems > like some of you who are complaining about circ posts are the ones who are > cutting your little boys. I guess you dont like to hear the truth about > how awful it is. > — > Kari and Justin > http://members.xoom.com/jstkaylie
Response:
To all you who think Circ discussions are irrelevant to this and other parenting newsgroups are crazy — there are many paretns out there who have questions about intact sons. Don’t discriminate against them — it seems like some of you who are complaining about circ posts are the ones who are cutting your little boys. I guess you dont like to hear the truth about how awful it is. — Kari and Justin http://members.xoom.com/jstkaylie
Response:
I DO post there too — but my point is, Im a parent and sometimes its nice to hear from other parents of intact sons. Most of the people who post on that newsgroup are single men arguing over a foreskin.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To all you who think Circ discussions are irrelevant to this and other > parenting newsgroups are crazy — there are many paretns out there who have > questions about intact sons. > There’s a newsgroup for them too. It’s called alt.circ. See you there! > …well, maybe not. > — Jack Tarkaan Kalamazoo, Michigan > — NO UNSOLICITED E-MAIL AT THIS ADDRESS – Respect privacy – NO SPAM!!!!
Response:
>To all you who think Circ discussions are irrelevant to this and other >parenting newsgroups are crazy — there are many paretns out there who have >questions about intact sons. Don’t discriminate against them — it seems >like some of you who are complaining about circ posts are the ones who are >cutting your little boys. I guess you dont like to hear the truth about >how awful it is.
I guess she can’t except the fact that America is a democracy, in which parents are the legal medical guardians of their children.
Response:
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Kendra *Proud to be Outlandish!* http://www.geocities.com/heartland/lane/6516 — Visit my pages of SnowGlobes! http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lane/6516/snowglobes.htm 
ur children right from wrong. Teach them that guns and killing are not the :answer. Teach them the old fashoined values that our parents were raised on. :I don’t remember this kind of thing happening in the 50’s. Yes technology is :wonderful and lifestyles may be better now but why abandon the "old fashioned :values" now? Why is it that having values should be called old fashioned? :Get yourselves and your childern back to church, no matter what your religion :is. Live by Gods rules and take the commandments seriously, they were not :meant as suggestions. : : We are all in deep trouble whether we want to admit it or not. We all need :to take a serious look at our lives and want to change the way we are living. :If we wait for the next person to do it it will never happen. A society’s :value system is based on what the people view as allowable behaviors. Stop :looking the other way and not wanting to get involved. Doing nothing and :allowing this to go on is enabling this type of behavior. We need to stand :up and say enough is enough. How many more children have to die before we :get it? : : : We are all responsible for this tragedy by letting our lifestyles get to :the point that they are. When Jerry Springer is the #1 rated daytime show, :something is wrong. I for one have had it. Have you? What will it take :before we all say enough is enough? : : :> My god another school shooting. What is the world coming to? :> Can you imagine sending your child to school and never seeing them :> again? (not that any of the victims have died yet) One girl was shot 9 :> times in the chest!! How am I supposed to explain to my child that she :> is safe at school when she might not be? :> So many questions , so few answers :> Cally :> :– :Sapphire7 : :Serious error. :All shortcuts have disappeared. :Screen. Mind. Both are blank. : 
eople in my area are not so cautious they take there 12 yr olds hunting and :buy them there own guns for birthdays. I am against this and will fight to :get the hunting age limit raised to a more appropriate age. Good for you. :I also know that in Canada it is pretty easy to get your hands on a gun if :you want one. whether they be legal or illegal. and as far as pipe bombs go :if you have access to the Internet you to can learn to make one from 